Heating With Wood

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Heating With Wood

HEATING WITH WOOD...

First, let me formally introduce myself.......burntfingers

hello all..

the info  i'll try to convey is based on my working experience for the past 20+ years in the hearth products industry.

as a user, installer, chimney sweep, retail / wholesale store owner ,with service and warranty as an important part of the business plan with a unique business plan based on customer requirements, not necessarily based on my profit motives or their uninformed needs I have always felt that it was and is my job to educate them and let them decide sometimes thats hard to do when they have more money than sense......

the customers range from average joe the plumber looking to save a buck cutting his own wood ,to superman movie stars w/ 14 fireplaces in a cabin that has a 1/2 mile of heated driveway so the maintenance man doesn't  have to plow snow ,surly he has better things to do , making sure the pipes dont  freeze all winter for the once a year trip to ski for the holidays.....

anyway...

 

form..... or .....function......rarely shall the two meet

venting system is more important than the appliance it is attached to

kiss applies..here KEEP IT SIMPLE.... STUPID!!!!!!!

DONE WRONG.....it can burn down a 5 million dollar cabin or a $40,000 modular home 

in my world  i dont  care so much about codes as  not killing the twins in crib, reliability, usability, serviceability 

dont  really on the building inspector to verify..... they rarely see the parts that need to be seen......

dont  accept the layout just because the architect draws it that way....for a heavily used heater....cleanable and accessible...not  40 feet in the air on a steep roof with  2 tons of steel and stone between the cleaning brush and flue....with a modern epa stove and proper flue system 2 cleanings a season is usually good

more latter.....

cast iron  or plate steel stoves,

catalytic , non catalytic

clearances ,.hearth requirements, layout, placement, location

specific ??? just ask....   

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Re: Heating With Wood

Such a timely topic, I just asked a similar question.

You said "more later" and I'm going to follow this thread.  As for specifics I don't know exactly where to start or what to ask at the moment.  I suppose the easiest thing is a quick description.  I live in an 1100 sq ft bungalow with small rooms.  I've read in some places that that is not an ideal setup for a woodstove because trying to heat all the rooms makes the room with the stove uncomfortably hot.

Is it possible that increasing interior thermal mass can absorb the excess heat in this scenario.  Or is it best to just undersize the stove?

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Re: Heating With Wood

Hello Burnt.. welcome and thanks for the post.  One of the eye opening things I found when I installed my woodburning insert in the suburban NYC area a few years ago was that the hearth dealer I bought from did not offer cleaning.. only recommendations.. and that none of the local chimney services would call me back when I described the installation - apparently they did not want to have to drag out then reinstall the insert for cleaning.  I finally said screw it... bought my own brushes and extender, made a platform to slide the unit out on, and have been doing it myself ever since.  

My question is this - I have a nice (internal) masonry chimney with a dedicated flue for the fireplace... the way the hearth company installed my unit was to take about 10 ft of foot of SS flex pipe, squeezed through the flue slot.   Most of the residue ends up in the pipe.. I take this outside every Fall and brush it and bang it, as well as vacuuming out the top chamber of the stove, which inevitably gets filled with crispy stuff as I disassemble the pipe from the stove.  

Do you think this set up is inherently worse than getting the chimney lined?  I can't see any reason to pay for lining it based on the last few years experience.  

 

 

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Re: Heating With Wood

 This is what we have used for 15 years . LOVE it !  ALL the mess is outside .  Do not have to split wood tiny .   One draw back is it takes a little electricity  to run a pump .

 

 http://heatmor.com/   

 FM .

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Re: Heating With Wood

That's what I'm putting on my new cabin in BFE!  I'm putting on a solar panel (small) for the pump.  I can't wait to throw my first railroad tie into that sucker!

 

Full Moon wrote:

 This is what we have used for 15 years . LOVE it !  ALL the mess is outside .  Do not have to split wood tiny .   One draw back is it takes a little electricity  to run a pump .

 

 http://heatmor.com/   

 FM .

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Re: Heating With Wood

jim,

how old is house ,chimney? the chimney for the fireplace should be lined, tera cota tiles??

the liner for wood insert should go to top for proper draft and cleaning...nfpa 211 states flue cross section should be no more than 1/3 larger than stove outlet...then is allowed BUT>>>.I won't do it....I was called to one that blew the 400# insert onto the coffee table , old school non epa unit 

think air in air out  the less time gases spend in system the better...if you see shiney glazed  stuck to flue = bad 

there is a reason the sweeps dont call back..with proper install and good insert , no removal, brush down from top "fuzzy" crosote falls into insert..the last one i cleaned like yours took 4 hrs trying to get back together $500 in labor and they could still have chimney fire after i left...

chimney fires will remove the shiney glazed creosote....and maybe more

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Re: Heating With Wood

I have a Woodstock Soapstone stove with a catalytic combuster.  Before I put it in I studied up on how to install the chimney.  Turns out that straight up through the house is the most efficient way and there is no puffback.  I got a triple wall stainless chimney made by a nearby Amish fabricator.  The inside pipe is 8" diameter fed from a 6" stovepipe.  I went up on the roof the first year and cleaned it myself, but I have a steep roof and I don't like going up there.  Since then I've hired a chimney sweep who does a quick efficient thorough job and it costs a little over $100.  Totally worth it.  There is no creosote build up, but the combuster is a bit of a pain because it has to be cleaned carefully and wears out anyway after 2-3 years.  I bought a couple back ups.  I heat the entire 1,700 sq. ft. house on about 10-12 face cords a year.  Soapstone stoves give off even heat and retain heat easily through the night.  We have a heating oil furnace back up, but it rarely comes on.  Last winter we burned about $80 worth of oil.  In three winters we paid off the investment in the woodstove.

Doug

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Re: Heating With Wood

I'm a DIY kind of guy who crosses the line some times so your feed back is very welcomed.

After doing some research on how a wood stove insert works well and safely, I made a blocking plate from SS and ran one 2' of stove pipe up through the plate. I sealed around the hole and sides with high heat stove/fire place sealant, built a chimney cap and of course checked the lining from top to bottom for cracks and cleanliness before starting a single fire. Our cost for heating a 2000 sf house, including water was around $600 from Oct-March.

Any thoughts welcomed

Thnaks you

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Re: Heating With Wood

sjdavis:

We have an 1,000-sf house. We put an airtight woodburning stove in our existing fireplace (they had to take out the old firebox for clearance). The stove is so small that it is rated for--get this--trailer homes. Here is the model: http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/wood-stoves/stove-details?product_id=12

woodstovethis is not my house, it's the catalog pic

The stove cost about $1,500 (plus $300 more for the brown, if you want that) and about double that for installation . Oh, and burntfingers,  we had a professional installation with an insulated, straight-run steel pipe to a new custom cap BECAUSE YOU DON'T MESS AROUND WITH FIRE SAFETY. We plan buying the brushes and on doing our own cleaning. We assume that we will be on our own regarding cleaning when TSHTF.

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Re: Heating With Wood
DmaxSilver wrote:

I'm a DIY kind of guy who crosses the line some times so your feed back is very welcomed.

After doing some research on how a wood stove insert works well and safely, I made a blocking plate from SS and ran one 2' of stove pipe up through the plate. I sealed around the hole and sides with high heat stove/fire place sealant, built a chimney cap and of course checked the lining from top to bottom for cracks and cleanliness before starting a single fire. Our cost for heating a 2000 sf house, including water was around $600 from Oct-March.

Any thoughts welcomed

 

I love that fireplace.

A couple of thoughts. Cleaning may be a challenge as you may have to remove the SS plate to get to the dropped creosote deposits. Also, if your chimney liner is oversized for that particular stove it will not create enough draft to really run your stove well and also generate more creosote buildup due to condensation on the cool liner surface. check the specs on that stove and add the proper sized liner. 

 

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Re: Heating With Wood

CATALYTIC COMBUSTER OR NOT......

Iin the old days. pre epa..

big stoves with big fireboxes, usually an 8" round flu.. not much to them.. gaskets,baffel maybe and firebricks big heavy plate steel stoves. lots of heat going up the flue= lots of wood

epa regulation required less emmisions. current standard is epa phase 2 for most parts of the country.check localy. cooking stoves are considerd exempt. so are pellet stoves..but thats a whole diffrent can of worms...pelletstoves that is...

for a non cat  stove to meet emmision standards they have baffeld the stove with brick or cermaic fiber or a rock wool blanket or a combination of ...

the rock wool blanket get trashed and sucked into the sweeps vaccum ....still works .... but

non-cats usually have air tubes at top of firebox helping achive better combustion,with insulated top achives hotter firebox temps

catalitic combustor is another componet ....in the exaust path  with a bypass damper....light fire..open damper wait till combustor lights off, close damper....add more  wood ......rinse and repeat.......dont do it right ...combustor clogs.....not cheep....the bolts that hold in place fuse...replace in 5 years..will still burn w/ removed...might as well have the old type stove...the benfits of catalytic are the ability to have larger firebox and maybe a marginal decrese in grams per hour of emmisions.... do my best to stay away from cataylitic...kiss applies yet again....

in theroy the bigger the firebox the longer the burn time... no-cats firebox size is limited ...but usually adaquite...light fire, add wood, rinse repeat

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Re: Heating With Wood

dmax,,, let me guess that it's hard to start.fire .....when you open the door smoke spills,   gona be a bear to clean.... it may work,,,, but when not if it catches fire you best be ready!!!!!!chimney fires are very intense... but usually short in duration....that is if the chimney can contain it..looks like you have an heat -form style firebox in the fireplace  metal prefab  w/ masonry skin around the firebox... may or may not have air vents /fans  probally has metal damper w/ folding handle.....I cut the center bar out , cut the pin on damper ,either side and cut a V  center on stove pipe into back of damper throut for a 6" pipe to get though ...to the top....of chimney....fireplace will never work again...as a traditional open hearth fp

a traditional fireplace can change the air in a room 4- 5 times every hour when burning..... it will get the air from somewhere or spill smoke... most codes require out side air installed , usually 4" in dryer vent type ....fireplace flue in min. 10" round or equivelent ...

if you have another heat source it's a net loss in heat...   if you a traditional fp they sure look cool.....form or function

country smarts or city smarts.....how smart are you????   seems like city smart people want country smarts and vise versa.....

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Re: Heating With Wood

burntfinger,

Thank you for the information you are contributing.  I have a suggestion in terms of marketing your services though.  I'm personally a stickler for doing things the right way because almost everything one does turns out better when there is proper attention to detail.  When I read something from someone who is supposed to be a professional, if they don't capitalize and their spelling is poor, I begin to question their attention to detail in other areas as well.  What you write and how you write it all contributes to projecting a certain image.  'Nuff said?

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Re: Heating With Wood

ao,

 

arrogance is alarming in folk who presuppose and end near which might require anothers effort for ones well being. I've known many an illiterate farmer who's  forgotten more than all here combined know about "gettin' by".

 

robie,husband,father,farmer,optometrist(and a most reluctant typist)

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Re: Heating With Wood

ao..

thats kinda my point , with city smarts and country smarts..

not try n to market anything... except a safe reliable alternative heat source ...i guess its what you deem important as an individual

as far as image...well I've been beating a different drum my whole life. my intentions are not to offed anyone but to convey information

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Re: Heating With Wood

  Robie ,  Good point ... and  we NEVER  trust a smooth talker .     Some of the people I would trust to save my @**  anywhere, anytime ,can  not spell  WHAT , whut , WUt  , .

 FM .

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Re: Heating With Wood

cast iron or plate steel??           off the top of my head

cast iron

pros- more heat stable, wont warp , denser, longer to heat up and longer to lose heat

cons- usually heavy sob's, individual pieces , put together like a puzzle with gaskets or usually a cement type chalk that breaks its seal over time and starts leaking air at joints, its hard to fix it right, in your living room, can crack,  usually has  grater clearances to combustibles

plate steel

pros-continuous welds, less chance for leaks over time, closer clearances to combustible walls, some  can get as close as  2" in an corner layout, cost , easily welded, usually lighter, i guess you only care if you move them......

cons- can distort 

my stoves are plate steel , non cat w/ standard split firebrick lining, no custom shaped pieces that require left nuts  to get from Europe WHEN it needs replacing.  just door and glass gaskets.  i burn  about  31/2 cords per season in my rebuilt well insulated mile high 1500 sf home .1903 vintage on the sunny side of the street w large garden and chickens that like chili pepper plant leaves and an half finished masonry french style  pizza oven in side yard

please excuse me.... after shaking my head all these years at unaware people i must have drain bamage

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Re: Heating With Wood
robie robinson wrote:

arrogance is alarming in folk who presuppose and end near which might require anothers effort for ones well being.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.  Accurate communication is more effective than inaccurate communication.  If you're building precision machinery, you want accuracy.  If you're directing a military operation, you want accuracy.  If you're performing surgery, you want accuracy.   

And as far as your farmer, one doesn't have to be illiterate to be skilled in survival.  The most skilled survival expert I ever came across could spell and write accurately, speak eloquently, had read the classics, and understood business with the best of them but he could also live off the woods with just a knife for a month and come out in better shape than when he started.  And he didn't need a farm to survive.  You have no idea what some people here know and don't know or have lived through or haven't lived through.  Please don't project arrogance onto others and don't assume what others might not know.

 

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Re: Heating With Wood

  Before things get more nasty spirited ...my question for burntfingers is this ,  can we run more than one stove off of one chimney ?   I am assuming so  because ours has three holes .  It also has a clean out in the basement for creosote .    We use the Heatmor as our primary heat source  but at some point, in the near future ,would like to get a wood cooking stove to use .

 And for Robie , off topic but does Black Leg need a booster  ? If so at what age ?

  Thanks,

FM

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Re: Heating With Wood

The consensus is that an anual booster is sufficient. If pop. density is low and grazing residue several inches, you could get by w/o vaccinations. (did for years) We vaccinate non terminal cattle annually.

robie

didn't check grammer or spellin' as gettin this completed was more important

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Re: Heating With Wood

 Thank you ,Robie ,  Do not want to give anything I do not have to .

   I wish I had taken typing in school , now I do not have time or patience to learn it .  Need to find a site that is not so ticky on these sort of things .   Time to make hay while the sun shines Wink.... Got Gymkhana in the eve!

  Again thank you for making the time to answer my question .

FM

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Re: Heating With Wood

ao

Why so harsh. Sometimes I think the grammar police are plants to undermine the site.  Just my paranoid thought for the day. 

Not you necessarily but it is guaranteed to upset and hurt and humiliate people to make such personal attacks.

D

 

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Re: Heating With Wood

types of chimneys....

as far as pre- fab chimneys vs site built masonry

there are two basic styles of metal pre-fab

air cooled and solid pack

air cooled or thermo-siphon,  two or three layers of pipe within a pipe, with or without a layer of insulation, pulls air around the inner pipe to keep temps down for the ul listing.....wood stove chimneys are listed to a 2100 degree test vs pre-fab fireplace that are listed to 1700 degree, thats why in safewrites case of a hearth mount stove you must reline whole flue, besides the size difference for best draft....you have very limited choice of rear vent stoves,  its almost a crime to cut the legs on a new stove to get the outlet low enough to enter fireplace opening

any way....air cooled usually cost  less but always has a bigger outside diameter than solid pack, can be a big deal with the standard framing in some roofs or walls cutting and installing a support header... but the biggest deal is cooling tha chimney w air is counter productive to maintaining a hotter flue temp to promote draft....in my climate and altitude i wont do it.... solid pack is the wway to go....

interior lining is always stainless steel exterior is either ssteel or galvanized with solid packed insulation between

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Re: Heating With Wood

full moon

in the old house they had multiple openings or what i call thimbles, in the same flue, not necessarily the the chimney structure with multiple flues, unlike a gas flue where you can combine different appliances wood should not be more than one appliance per flue....

never combine fuels ie gas and wood ....wood has a combustible by product  creosote and fly ash that can clog gas vent = waking up dead

old chimneys

in my experience in working back east and out here in the wild west.....usually a single layer of brick with old soft mortar and house framing touching the brick= bad, how many times you been driving through the country side and see just a chimney standing all by itself

the old country guy says its been that way for years with no problems...

that 's a major challenge with old houses "unlined flues" alot of times the shape of the flue makes it hard to do anything with

most things can be made safe if you have enough time and money ..but people  do creative things when money is an issue

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Re: Heating With Wood

stove location and planning

any time you are dealing with a central heat source it is a challenge to move the heated air through out the structure, back bedrooms baths...

you end up with hot spots, sometimes to hot to be comfortable...nothing wrong with running around in yur underwear with the window open on a cold snowy evening...people have been making quick trips to the outhouse for along time....

the fire marshals dont like when you start cutting holes between rooms and floors, but natural convection through-out the house can be helpful

some may say the basement is a good place, but that is usually the lowest pressure zone of the  structure. with new super tight home construction the chimney can become the make-up air for the house...hard to overcome the the down draft of a cold flue. in the middle of the night when fire dies down the heat  that has been driving the draft is gone and the smoke alarms go off...that is if you haven't already disabled  em

if your house is so dam tight your stove wont burn , you are choking on you own exhaust....in humid areas  you get mold issues....well lets just put in a air exchanger with heat recovery.....so much for keeping it simple stupid........back to that money and scene thing

individual structures do and act in different ways.... if you turn on your commercial vent hood over your commercial 19 burner gas nordic stove and the wood stove stars spilling .....go figure

make the hearth in front of the the appliance out of a non-combustible material that solid and durable ...easy to clean. ..every time you open the door ash will fall out....wood chips ..and such.   i love the white carpet right in front of  the wood stove with all the pretty burns that are covered with the throw rug

it is recommended that the chimney penetrate the highest point possible of the structure... easy to do when starting from scratch....

tall vaulted ceiling with stove on the low side leads to chimney sticking way out by itself..that is hard to get to  in the middle of the night in a snow storm because your stove wont draft because the fly ash and creosote have built up on the flue decreasing the inside diameter .or better yet  the guy that put window screen on the cap to keep birds out,  the screens that the manufactures supply will slowly clog  also ....stove starts to spill more when you open the door. harder to start fire...clean on your terms.....not when you are cold

always hug every tree you put in your wood stove

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Re: Heating With Wood

 

I love that fireplace.

A couple of thoughts. Cleaning may be a challenge as you may have to remove the SS plate to get to the dropped creosote deposits. Also, if your chimney liner is oversized for that particular stove it will not create enough draft to really run your stove well and also generate more creosote buildup due to condensation on the cool liner surface. check the specs on that stove and add the proper sized liner. 

Thanks Tycer, I'll be cleaning/sweeping the chimny again soon if we stay in this house. The clay tile chimney liner did fit within the specs and was very clean without any damage/cracks, (I ran a camera down from the roof). 

 

burntfingers wrote:

dmax,,, let me guess that it's hard to start.fire .....when you open the door smoke spills,   gona be a bear to clean.... it may work,,,, but when not if it catches fire you best be ready!!!!!!chimney fires are very intense... but usually short in duration....that is if the chimney can contain it..looks like you have an heat -form style firebox in the fireplace  metal prefab  w/ masonry skin around the firebox... may or may not have air vents /fans  probally has metal damper w/ folding handle.....I cut the center bar out , cut the pin on damper ,either side and cut a V  center on stove pipe into back of damper throut for a 6" pipe to get though ...to the top....of chimney....fireplace will never work again...as a traditional open hearth fp

a traditional fireplace can change the air in a room 4- 5 times every hour when burning..... it will get the air from somewhere or spill smoke... most codes require out side air installed , usually 4" in dryer vent type ....fireplace flue in min. 10" round or equivelent ...

if you have another heat source it's a net loss in heat...   if you a traditional fp they sure look cool.....form or function

country smarts or city smarts.....how smart are you????   seems like city smart people want country smarts and vise versa.....

 

Nope! No smoke even with the door wide open and the stove was the main heat source for heating the house (1900sf). Starting a fire was easy (we'll for me it was). My wife and daughters seemed to struggle with starting small and building up the fire and then keeping it going was the other battle. My oil bill from Nov to March was under $400. I just wanted to know if I missed something huge and was really in danger of something bad. Once it fired the way it did at the first burning and then all winter, I thought/felt that all was okay and relativity safe. 

country smarts or city smarts.....how smart are you????   seems like city smart people want country smarts and vise versa.....

I'm not sure what your implying here, but I really appreciate good solid thinking before action . . . anywhere I am on the planet. 

This is where I got most of my information; http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/

Thanks, 

Dmax


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Re: Heating With Wood

I have the best of both worlds with a wood burner in the living room and contemporary radiators in the bathroom and kitchen.

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Re: Heating With Wood

Our next house is going to have a wood burning boiler . . . I thinks thats just dreamyInnocent

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Re: Heating With Wood

have you ever heard the one about the ant and the grasshopper?????

 

asop has some true wisdom...

buy the boats in winter... the wood stove in summer...before we get so slammmed with work that we get greedy.....

how that wood pile comming???   for you folks new to it...out east were it's humid be a year ahead or the new stoves won't like it

remember  to hug every tree ,,,,,,,

 

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Re: Heating With Wood

burnt fingers

Quote:

how that wood pile comming???   for you folks new to it...out east were it's humid be a year ahead or the new stoves won't like it

I've had the coming winter's wood split and stacked since last summer and I'm currently working on wood for the two following winters.  We got a load of logs with a lot of beech in it.  I hate beech.YellThe expression son-of-a-beech probably came from someone who had to split too much of it by hand.Tongue out

Doug

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Re: Heating With Wood, Burntfingers
burntfingers wrote:

my stoves are plate steel , non cat w/ standard split firebrick lining, no custom shaped pieces that require left nuts  to get from Europe WHEN it needs replacing.  just door and glass gaskets.  i burn  about  31/2 cords per season in my rebuilt well insulated mile high 1500 sf home .1903 vintage on the sunny side of the street w large garden and chickens that like chili pepper plant leaves and an half finished masonry french style  pizza oven in side yard



Sounds like you made your place the warmest, most comfortable home in town. And a pizza oven, too! I'm jealous!



So what do you think of rocket stove? Are they really that efficient? I thought the videos were interesting, though all of them looked scorched! Here's the link:

http://www.richsoil.com/rocket-stove-mass-heater.jsp



Another member, Jager06, says he thinks it's dangerous if not done right: metal not able to stand the intense heat of gaseous afterburn. If a 35 or 55-gallon drum doesn't make sense for the combustion chamber, what kind of metal or metal container or piping would you recommend?



Poet

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