Greenspan

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malpert's picture
malpert
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Greenspan

Today Alan Greenspan published an Op Ed piece in the WSJ:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123672965066989281.html

His primary argument is as follows:

The housing bubble was caused by the speculative euphoria of low long term rates. 

The Fed controls short-term interest rates

The Fed does not control long-term rates

The Fed is not responsible for the housing bubble

 

Where to begin? 

Greenspan ignores that the Home Equity ATM bubble was driven by short term rates (Prime rate =  Fed funds + 300 bps).  This cannot be overlooked.  Many of our imported toys were purchased this way and recycled back into long term treasury and agency debt. 

Greenspan ignores that PRINTING MONEY (in exchange for short T-bills) affects all rates not just the target rate.  The freshly printed bank reserves are ultimately converted into long-term bank investments (and multiplied via fractional reserve banking).  Banks make long term loanss...that's what they do when you give them money.  The more money they have, the lower the long-term rates will be.

Greenspan also ignores that long term rates incorporate expectations for the embedded short-term periods over their duration.  "Easy Money" expectations for the future keep long term rates low (if inflation expectations are kept  in check)

Most importantly Greenspan ignores that TODAY the Fed does have control over long-term rates and just about anything and everything else.  His continuing plea of impotence should be recognized as entirely fallacious.  Yes, the emergency and exigent circumstances have given additional powers to the federal reserve, but it is evident that the wielding of this authority is at the discretion of the Fed itself. 

Greenspan CHOSE not to fight bubbles.  He said didn't have the tools.  He did.  He likely feared that his seemingly infallible legacy couldn't affford a  healthy and entirely necessary correction.  Or better yet, he perhaps believed that the beneifts of productivity and globalization were so far ahead of the market that an ongoing expansion was actually possible.  In either case, whether it be arrogance or ignorance, he was wrong.  Today, he is just grabbing at straws trying to convince everyone otherwise.     

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: Greenspan

 

[Ed. note:  Removed by moderator due to suggestion of violence directed toward Chmn. Greenspan]

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Re: Greenspan
Greenspan should be next to maddoff.  Central banking / central planning is what Karl Marx endorsed.  Hang the SpanMan
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Re: Greenspan

Allen Greenspan when asked about the relationship of The Federal Reserve and the President 


Scary stuff!  Greenspan says no one is over the Federal Reserve, not even the President.  The Federal Reserve is above our government and it is run by international crooks.

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Re: Greenspan
DrKrbyLuv wrote:

Allen Greenspan when asked about the relationship of The Federal Reserve and the President 


Scary stuff!  Greenspan says no one is over the Federal Reserve, not even the President.  The Federal Reserve is above our government and it is run by international crooks.

No... the Fed is not "above" our government... it IS our government!!!!  These crooks need to be hanged.

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Re: Greenspan

violence ..................from moi?

for the guy who trashed the economy of the entire planet 

why perish the thought. 

i think he ought to get a medal.

at least i did not suggest he get hung as someone else here suggested. 

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Re: Greenspan
joe2baba wrote:

violence ..................from moi?

for the guy who trashed the economy of the entire planet 

why perish the thought. 

i think he ought to get a medal.

at least i did not suggest he get hung as someone else here suggested. 

They have and will do more destruction than most people on death row have ever done.  I'm all for capital punishment; just apply it to the right people.

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Re: Greenspan

 

caroline &/or DrKrby - I'm confused - What do you propose as a replacement for the Fed?
"Hanging the crooks" or "end the fed" does not help me to understand what would be a better alternative.

btw, My objective is NOT to get into an argument but rather to learn something...and maybe hear and offer a different perspective. 

God knows, there are some incredibly wise people on these threads and I certainly
appreciate them sharing their thoughts and wisdom. 

I can not claim to be an expert on the Fed, nor its workings. I can't say that its rules are fair nor unfair - but, most importantly, they are known.  And as long as the rules are known, then we all have the opportunity to 'play by the rules'. 
If someone understands those rules well enough to win (aka profit), then so be it.  I am by no means saying that it is perfect - yet I would love to hear an alternative suggestion for a structure.

For what it's worth...
I can't imagine such an entity being under the power of Congress...

I also can't imagine such an entity being under the power of the Prez...

To me, it makes perfect sense that it be outside the power of elected govt officials. As I understand, the Fed Board of Gov's are appointed by the Prez for a 14 yr term, with a gov's seat expiring every couple of years.

How do you think it should be changed?


I don't always agree with Fed policies nor the timing of Fed events/changes.  Yet, I understand the rules and, as such, adjust accordingly when necessary.  If someone did not understand the rules, it is understandable that they would
be upset.  Yet, the onus falls on them to learn the rules - nobody was born  understanding them nor given them on a silver spoon (not intended as a reference to the seven(?) fed families).


Frankly, I'm not sure that I believe that the Fed actually is 'the problem' or even "the cause of the problem".    Rather, figuratively speaking, 'all of us'   are 'the cause of the problem'!


For example - those whose house became an ATM and are now in trouble - you are 'the cause of the problem'....not the Fed.

Personally, "I" am 'the cause'.  I'm sorry everyone - my bad!            I used to take some of the 0% credit card checks, cash 'em, make a stock trade, and then return the funds - proud that I turned free money into free money.    I capitalized on a by-product of the Fed's actions of loose credit - which means,  arguably, 'I am the cause of the problem' for doing that.

I showed friends how to finance new car purchases at 0% for years - and when the time came that they couldn't get any more 0% $, then they'd pay it off.  They learned how to capitalize on cheap credit, a by-product of the Fed's action. 

Both of those actions make "me" guilty of being part of 'the cause of the problem'.   But the problem aint the Fed, it is me.

Said differently -
I live in a major city.  At night, within 2 miles, I can usually find a street prostitute and/or a junkie selling crack or smack.  If I choose to become a 'client' of either or both, and end up addicted or with aids,  is it the fault of the farmer who
grew the poppy seeds?  How about any/every one in that distribution chain?   Is it the fault of the parents of the prostitute?    Nope.   The fingers of blame should point to me and me alone.  Just becuz something is 'available' does not mean ya have to participate...even if tantilizingly free (re: credit cards - not illegal offerings)

In that same vein, the blame lies not with the Fed...blame lies with the users.

TWISI, "hanging the crooks" (btw, who are they and why are they crooks?) 
     or
 "ending the fed" does not solve the underlying issue - which is recognizing that the "users" are to blame....am I missing something?

Again, I'm not trying to create an argument - I truly would love to hear ideas for an alternative to the current Fed structure.

Thank you in advance
JL

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Re: Greenspan

JL, there's a lot of posts on here about the Fed system.  There are videos like Creature from Jekyll Island, Debt as Money, The Money Masters, that you should watch.  I hope you do...query them on video.google...we need more people to understand this cancer that's about to kill the patient.  Debt-based money which enslaves everyone to the banks whose owners become super rich...a private incentive to drastically inflate...is the problem.  

I don't want to repeat a lot of my posts and others that have explained how the Fed is the problem.  I'll just say in response to your sentence:

JL wrote:

For example - those whose house became an ATM and are now in trouble - you are 'the cause of the problem'....not the Fed

Ask yourself: why is it that all of a sudden, first time in a century, millions of people suddenly turned crazy and used their house as an ATM?  That was just a random fluke of individual minds all of a sudden doing something they never did before?  Come on.  Clearly, there's a systemic reason.  

Secondly I'll say this isn't just a problem with sub-prime borrowers, i.e. the people using houses as ATMs.  We're about to see the collapse of commercial estate, prime real estate, other parts of the financial industry (some of it's already happening quietly as big banks are sucking up little banks).  This goes way beyond individual borrowers...they were just one little enabling piece of the overall systemic puzzle.  

As far as the prostitute/drug example goes, it's true that individual responsibility plays a role.  But you can't just blame demand when supply is an equal partner in a market.  And it's not true to say "there'd be no supply if there was no demand." We know there are powerful moneyed interests behind the supply of markets like this...it's pushed on people just as media is, consumer goods are, and most other industries.  Yes demand exists a priori.  But also, yes supply creates its own demand.

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Re: Greenspan
 
I have to disagree (sort of).  Just like the left wing / right wing paradigm.  The media is conditioning some people to blame the FED and the other half The Government.  It's the entire package of Both, can't blame just one side.  It's the combination of both.  
 
By 2012 if we do not get more ethical people in office, then a Revolution must take place.  
 
~Joe 
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Re: Greenspan
JL Lord wrote:

caroline &/or DrKrby - I'm confused - What do you propose as a replacement for the Fed?
"Hanging the crooks" or "end the fed" does not help me to understand what would be a better alternative.

Hi JL;  The Fed has not always been in existence.  Sometimes, in order to solve the problem, one needs to weed out the bad apples.  Sometimes the bushel will go bad even after the bad apples have been taken out.  BUT, it is progress if we can, at least, identify the problem.  AND sometimes the solution is not so cut-and-dry as during the French Revolution.

JL Lord wrote:

btw, My objective is NOT to get into an argument but rather to learn something...and maybe hear and offer a different perspective. 

I welcome your arguments.  It is most often the only way to solve the problem.  I don't see arguments as a bad thing, as long as they are arguments intended to solve a problem.

JL Lord wrote:

God knows, there are some incredibly wise people on these threads and I certainly
appreciate them sharing their thoughts and wisdom. 

I'm going to leave God out of this one; but thanks for the kind words. Smile

JL Lord wrote:

I can not claim to be an expert on the Fed, nor its workings. I can't say that its rules are fair nor unfair - but, most importantly, they are known.  And as long as the rules are known, then we all have the opportunity to 'play by the rules'. 

I, too, am not an expert on the Fed.  In most cases rules are set forth at the outset.  It it when rules change or are added/deleted that our system will turn a different direction.  That direction is usually altered and intended to benefit, unfairly, those that have changed the rules.  Those rules change when legislation (or not) has been passed which is often pressed substantially by those that wish to change the rules.

JL Lord wrote:

If someone understands those rules well enough to win (aka profit), then so be it.  I am by no means saying that it is perfect - yet I would love to hear an alternative suggestion for a structure.

If that was all it was, i.e. understanding the rules well, then the game/system would be fair.  It is when there are unfair lobbying efforts, by those with much more power, that produce the endgame.  For example; if you and a friend had a system to gain a lot of money by gambling at the casino, and you both set up specific rules to make loads of money, and then one of you got carried away and strayed from the system and lost the money, then that person has negated the very efforts by the other who was playing by the game.  The game is null and void at that point.  If, on the other-hand, he made MORE money by altering the system, then that would not be the "system" because it has, in fact, turned into something completely different.  By definition, it would be considered a new "system".  This is what is happening.

JL Lord wrote:

For what it's worth...
I can't imagine such an entity being under the power of Congress...

"Under" or Over?  If "over the power of Congress" then, I can.  There are lots of people in power who are very intelligent, and that intelligence doesn't mean digging your own grave for the sake of righteousness.  People who have spoken out have usually gotten the bitter end of the battle.

JL Lord wrote:

I also can't imagine such an entity being under the power of the Prez...

To me, it makes perfect sense that it be outside the power of elected govt officials. As I understand, the Fed Board of Gov's are appointed by the Prez for a 14 yr term, with a gov's seat expiring every couple of years.

How do you think it should be changed?  They should keep their seats with no time-table.  A good leader should not be removed based soley upon terms limitations.  If people find that they aren't up to snuff then they should be removed; just as with any job/career.

I don't always agree with Fed policies nor the timing of Fed events/changes.  Yet, I understand the rules and, as such, adjust accordingly when necessary.  If someone did not understand the rules, it is understandable that they would
be upset.  Yet, the onus falls on them to learn the rules - nobody was born  understanding them nor given them on a silver spoon (not intended as a reference to the seven(?) fed families).

I suppose it is the burden of the children to decipher the rules of abuse when it happens??  I agree that people should look at everything critically and skeptically BUT the gov't was also put into place to govern effectively.  If this is not happening then there is no need for a/that government.

JL Lord wrote:

Frankly, I'm not sure that I believe that the Fed actually is 'the problem' or even "the cause of the problem".    Rather, figuratively speaking, 'all of us'   are 'the cause of the problem'!


We are the problem and very few are immune to the effects of it.  If I find out, after the fact, that the mayor was ripping me off by ripping off the knowing shoemaker, who ripped off the knowing candlestick maker, who ripped off the knowing baker, who ripped me off, then I will go after anyone listed above esp. considering the degree to which it has affected my family and me.  I will get justice.  Fair is fair.

JL Lord wrote:

For example - those whose house became an ATM and are now in trouble - you are 'the cause of the problem'....not the Fed.

This doesn't excuse the crack dealer, though.  Of course the druggie is culpable, but so too is anyone that is involved and those that have the power to stop it.

JL Lord wrote:

Personally, "I" am 'the cause'.  I'm sorry everyone - my bad!  I used to take some of the 0% credit card checks, cash 'em, make a stock trade, and then return the funds - proud that I turned free money into free money.    I capitalized on a by-product of the Fed's actions of loose credit - which means,  arguably, 'I am the cause of the problem' for doing that.

You are the cause of what problem?

JL Lord wrote:

I showed friends how to finance new car purchases at 0% for years - and when the time came that they couldn't get any more 0% $, then they'd pay it off.  They learned how to capitalize on cheap credit, a by-product of the Fed's action. 

Well if everyone did that then the Fed would be bankrupt and thus no Fed. 

JL Lord wrote:

Both of those actions make "me" guilty of being part of 'the cause of the problem'.   But the problem aint the Fed, it is me.

How were you "the cause of the problem"?  And what is the "the problem" you speak of exactly? (I'm just trying to clarify meaning...Smile)

JL Lord wrote:

Said differently -
I live in a major city.  At night, within 2 miles, I can usually find a street prostitute and/or a junkie selling crack or smack.  If I choose to become a 'client' of either or both, and end up addicted or with aids,  is it the fault of the farmer who
grew the poppy seeds? 

Yes; blame doesn't necessarily end with a single person.

JL Lord wrote:

How about any/every one in that distribution chain?  

Yes. 

JL Lord wrote:

Is it the fault of the parents of the prostitute?    Nope.  

Yes. 

JL Lord wrote:

The fingers of blame should point to me and me alone.  Just becuz something is 'available' does not mean ya have to participate...even if tantilizingly free (re: credit cards - not illegal offerings)

No.  Not "you alone".  With what we know, today, about the brain and psyche, almost anyone can get you to do/buy anything by performing 'x'. 

JL Lord wrote:

In that same vein, the blame lies not with the Fed...blame lies with the users.

Both.

JL Lord wrote:

TWISI, "hanging the crooks" (btw, who are they and why are they crooks?) 
     or
 "ending the fed" does not solve the underlying issue - which is recognizing that the "users" are to blame....am I missing something?

Think back to the French Revolution.  Survival is everything even if it mean bringing down the king.

JL Lord wrote:

Again, I'm not trying to create an argument - I truly would love to hear ideas for an alternative to the current Fed structure.

Thank you in advance
JL

By all means; argue!  Arguing is not a bad thing!

Cheers!

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caroline_culbert
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Re: Greenspan
JK121 wrote:
I have to disagree (sort of).  Just like the left wing / right wing paradigm.  The media is conditioning some people to blame the FED and the other half The Government.  It's the entire package of Both, can't blame just one side.  It's the combination of both.  
By 2012 if we do not get more ethical people in office, then a Revolution must take place.  
~Joe 

Why wait until 2012; if it doesn't happen (as in now so-to-speak) then it probably wont happen. Frown

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Re: Greenspan

simply put jl the constitution placed the creation of money in the hands of the treasury............period. the fed was created in 1913. the last pres to pay off the national debt was andrew jackson. he made it the centerpiece of his presidency to kill the bank which he did.

 

if you watch the crash course you will find that all our money is loaned into existence. does that sounda little strange to you that we the people borrow our money from a private corporation which has never been audited and does not pay taxes.

we have lost 95% if the value of our dollar because of inflation which the fed has caused.

you obviously just got here, and just as obviously you found some ways to game the system to your immediate advantage. just like the junkie you traded a short term high for a long term death sentence.

if you call this number 800-686-2237 you can purchase the book "the creature from jekyll island" you will get a silver dollar with the book which means it is virtually free.

come back after you have watched some of the videos recommended here and read the book. then you will be able to speak intelligently on the subject of the fed

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Re: Greenspan
Well I am just suggesting 2012 to give the voting process one more chance, even though we give it to many chances.  IF we get more status quo (banker, cfr) elite scum, then yes a movement must take place.  THe people will only take so much, things MUST change. 
 
~Joe 
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Re: Greenspan
joe2baba wrote:

then you will be able to speak intelligently on the subject of the fed

Hmmm.  I read your post before it got zoofed - the one where you suggested putting a bullet in Greenspan's head.  And then I went and read all of JL Lord's posts.  They are all still on the threads.

Just my opinion, but based on the few posts he has up, he has spoken far more intelligently than you give him credit for.

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Re: Greenspan

JL Lord wrote:

caroline &/or DrKrby - I'm confused - What do you propose as a replacement for the Fed? "Hanging the crooks" or "end the fed" does not help me to understand what would be a better alternative.

Thanks for asking - I think it is vitally important that we end the Fed.  Our current monetary system is unconstitutional, unreliable and unjust.  Our
nation (and every nation that has a central bank) has subjugated the control and creation of our money to private
banks thus relinquishing our national sovereignty; effectively becoming
a client state. Neither a Democracy nor a Republic may exist when the
greatest power of the nation is held in the hands of a private elite few.

Our monetary system is inherently and terminally
flawed by the multiplication of insoluble interest debt (see Crash Course #8).  Borrowed
money is added to the circulation through the creation of the principal but the subsequent interest is never created or funded.  The interest must be paid from future circulation which means the money supply must continuously grow through new debt.  Sooner or later, there will not be enough willing and worthy borrowers to sustain the needed growth - which is exactly where we are now.

It
is the right of the people and the duty of their government to provide a sustainable monetary system to conduct trade and commerce. Our nation is rich
in natural resources and the people are skilled and able; our
aspirations and physical possibilities must not be limited, controlled
or exploited by private banks.

DrKrbyLuv's Road to a Sustainable Money System:

  1. Abolish the Fed
  2. Abolish the IRS - continue income tax, but reduce it by 50% to serve in foreign debt reduction until it is finally extinguished - then eliminate all federal income tax.
  3. Return the power to issue our currency and to control all monetary policy back to the Government (via the House of Representatives).
  4. Congress, through the Treasury, would issue the amount of money that we owe to the Federal Reserve through our national debt, around $6 trillion dollars.  The newly issued money would be digitally sent to the Federal Reserve in total repayment of the money we owe them.  The total would be retired from debt - extinguished, it would be eliminated from their computer and ours - that money would effectively cease to exist.
  5. Begin a plan to pay back all foreign debt, around $3 trillion dollars  
  6. Use RICO statutes to conduct a criminal investigation of the Fed and the people who own it.
  7. Immediately quit the IMF (International Monetary Fund) and the BIS (Bank for International Settlements).
  8. Legislate all derivatives contracts null and void.
  9. Legislate that in the future, our imports must never again exceed our exports (3 year period to adjust).
  10. Place the United States on the accrual basis of accounting (we are on the cash basis which means future liabilities are not calculated on our balance sheet).  No future expenditures may be authorized without showing exactly where and how the funding would come - as a line item on all future budgets.
  11. Develop a sustainable monetary system - the government would be free to issue money as they now are free to issue bonds - the net effect would be that all interest charges to our government would be eliminated.
  12. Since over 97% of our money is created by banks - not borrowed - all interest on privately *secured loans would be eliminated.  Banks would be compensated by transaction and services like every other business; there is no need to charge interest (see my earlier post - why do we pay interest?).  Interest free loans would be available to qualified borrowers and only for qualified and secured loans (mortgages, asset purchases).
  13. Issue two types of money, one from secured loans and another permanent currency that is bought by private concerns and backed by precious metals.
  14. If the government needs to borrow $500 billion dollars, they must show that they are able to pay it back (interest free) without running a future deficit (define ratios for borrowing just like private debt).  This would encourage expenses that have a return - for example mass transit that enhances productivity and pays for itself as opposed to war machines and military spending that has no return. 
  15. All foreign aid would cease - except humanitarian emergencies.

Larry

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Re: Greenspan

Larry -

Thanks for answering the question.  Given your past post history I figured you would have a well reasoned and objective answer.

Much more informative to read responses like yours than some glib drivel others have tossed out. 

Your answer is only the second one I have copied and saved.

Nicely played.

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caroline_culbert
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Re: Greenspan
joe2baba wrote:

then you will be able to speak intelligently on the subject of the fed

This statement, above, was probably not intended to insult JL.  Even if it was there is no indication from this statement. This statement states that JL is mostly ignorant (or lacks info.) regarding the Federal Reserve as many on this CM.com are.  Joe2baba is only suggesting that he read/watch the material so JL can speak/write intelligently about the subject (as should I).  Why consider this statement offensive when there is NO reason to be based upon Joe's statement?

Why so sensitive?  It seems to me that some people just can't have an intelligent argument.  One should read carefully before attacking a person for their statements because it is not always clear as to whether or not the author is intending to be offensive.  They might just be making a statement that happens to be true.

Cheers Smile

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Re: Greenspan
DrKrbyLuv wrote:

JL Lord wrote:

caroline &/or DrKrby - I'm confused - What do you propose as a replacement for the Fed? "Hanging the crooks" or "end the fed" does not help me to understand what would be a better alternative.

Thanks for asking - I think it is vitally important that we end the Fed.  Our current monetary system is unconstitutional, unreliable and unjust.  Our nation (and every nation that has a central bank) has subjugated the control and creation of our money to private banks thus relinquishing our national sovereignty; effectively becoming a client state. Neither a Democracy nor a Republic may exist when the greatest power of the nation is held in the hands of a private elite few.

Our monetary system is inherently and terminally flawed by the multiplication of insoluble interest debt (see Crash Course #8).  Borrowed money is added to the circulation through the creation of the principal but the subsequent interest is never created or funded.  The interest must be paid from future circulation which means the money supply must continuously grow through new debt.  Sooner or later, there will not be enough willing and worthy borrowers to sustain the needed growth - which is exactly where we are now.

It is the right of the people and the duty of their government to provide a sustainable monetary system to conduct trade and commerce. Our nation is rich in natural resources and the people are skilled and able; our aspirations and physical possibilities must not be limited, controlled or exploited by private banks.

DrKrbyLuv's Road to a Sustainable Money System:

  1. Abolish the Fed
  2. Abolish the IRS - continue income tax, but reduce it by 50% to serve in foreign debt reduction until it is finally extinguished - then eliminate all federal income tax.
  3. Return the power to issue our currency and to control all monetary policy back to the Government (via the House of Representatives).
  4. Congress, through the Treasury, would issue the amount of money that we owe to the Federal Reserve through our national debt, around $6 trillion dollars.  The newly issued money would be digitally sent to the Federal Reserve in total repayment of the money we owe them.  The total would be retired from debt - extinguished, it would be eliminated from their computer and ours - that money would effectively cease to exist.
  5. Begin a plan to pay back all foreign debt, around $3 trillion dollars  
  6. Use RICO statutes to conduct a criminal investigation of the Fed and the people who own it.
  7. Immediately quit the IMF (International Monetary Fund) and the BIS (Bank for International Settlements).
  8. Legislate all derivatives contracts null and void.
  9. Legislate that in the future, our imports must never again exceed our exports (3 year period to adjust).
  10. Place the United States on the accrual basis of accounting (we are on the cash basis which means future liabilities are not calculated on our balance sheet).  No future expenditures may be authorized without showing exactly where and how the funding would come - as a line item on all future budgets.
  11. Develop a sustainable monetary system - the government would be free to issue money as they now are free to issue bonds - the net effect would be that all interest charges to our government would be eliminated.
  12. Since over 97% of our money is created by banks - not borrowed - all interest on privately *secured loans would be eliminated.  Banks would be compensated by transaction and services like every other business; there is no need to charge interest (see my earlier post - why do we pay interest?).  Interest free loans would be available to qualified borrowers and only for qualified and secured loans (mortgages, asset purchases).
  13. Issue two types of money, one from secured loans and another permanent currency that is bought by private concerns and backed by precious metals.
  14. If the government needs to borrow $500 billion dollars, they must show that they are able to pay it back (interest free) without running a future deficit (define ratios for borrowing just like private debt).  This would encourage expenses that have a return - for example mass transit that enhances productivity and pays for itself as opposed to war machines and military spending that has no return. 
  15. All foreign aid would cease - except humanitarian emergencies.

Larry

This looks good, Larry, but many would think that these are pipe dreams considering how far we (U.S.) are from them. Frown

DrKrbyLuv's picture
DrKrbyLuv
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
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Posts: 1995
Re: Greenspan

Dogs_In_A_Pile - thanks for the nice words!

caroline_culbert - agreed, it will be tough to end the Fed but I think if people take the time to study the issue they will see that it is crazy for a government to pay interest and relinquishes monetary control when they may simply issue the money themselves without incurring any interest or outside control.  People are catching on (slowly) and it will lead to a snowball effect as the people see that they've been bamboozled.

Larry

 

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tom.
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Posts: 345
Dali-Baba was framed

heh heh Cool

 

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joe2baba
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Offline)
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Posts: 807
Re: Greenspan

i am sorry but anyone who has no idea about the fed and asks what we could replace it with since this country functioned very well if not better without a central bank ( the period from jackson to lincoln was the most stable period monetarily in u.s. history) may have made intelligent posts on other subjects but is ignorant when it comes to this subject,

ignorance is not stupidity. i myself am quite ignorant about a great many subjects which is why i read and try to become more informed. if you would remember as well i suggested he order the creature and get a free silver dollar.

jl is obviously ignorant of the history of this country and the role central banking has played. this ignorance is the main reason i remain convinced the game is over.

as for a bullet for alan you will remember i decided that he was not worthy of going out that way and i suggested just exactly what this gov. perpetrates on people it does not like. kubark is the gold standard for guantanamo and abu ghraib. it is non violent and is based on the work of ewen cameron. i suggested it because i do not see how a man can ruin the lives of hundreds of millions of people and live with that memory. 

but perhaps you are thrilled with the current monetary system and the people who are running it. perhaps you are not being affected by the meltdown perhaps like jl you have been able to turn the system to your advantage and that  is all that counts.

btw what is your point ?

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jneo
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Re: Greenspan
 
joe2baba, I agree completely, do you think the FED will ever be shut down?, not just the fed but all central banking?  What freaks me out more is that people don't even realize that we practice just about everything that Marx wrote about.  The people will only be pushed so far.   
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joe2baba
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Posts: 807
Re: Dali-Baba was framed

you are a genius tom why dont you move to arkansas?

you are closer to the truth than you could possibly ever imagine.

btw did you shave?

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joe2baba
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Offline)
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Posts: 807
Re: Greenspan

jk121 i have no idea if it will get shut down or not. history being what it is no fiat currency can last forever.

the people who gave us the fed are the most brilliant monetary minds ever to walk the planet. they were able to corrupt a disciple of ayn rand's into the most criminal monetarist of all time. my hat is off to them.

they function in any environment and thrive and prosper in chaos.

my guess is that the plans are already in the making for what is coming next.........world gov. world currency neo fuedalism.

in any event jk guys like us ............they find oil under our garden all we get is dead tomatoes

you are right the people will only be pushed so far .........................to the edge of the open grave then they will jump.

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caroline_culbert
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
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Posts: 624
Re: Greenspan

Smile

joe2baba wrote:

ignorance is not stupidity. i myself am quite ignorant about a great many subjects which is why i read and try to become more informed.

I agree, Joe.  Some people really find offense where there was no offense intended!  It's very hard holding conversations/arguments with people who take things so personally!  I have always respected (liked) your posts even when I haven't always agreed with you (esp. on the religion thread)-- but it doesn't mean I don't like you!  Why do some people "dislike" people whom they disagree with?

I'm glad you made this post so others understand that you were just stating a fact w/ regards to truth and not intending to be offensive!

Bye Smile

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caroline_culbert
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
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Posts: 624
Re: Dali-Baba was framed
joe2baba wrote:

you are a genius tom why dont you move to arkansas?

I agree!  Nice Photo Shop job!  Tom whipped this up in a hurry!!!!

tom.'s picture
tom.
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 18 2008
Posts: 345
Re: Dali-Baba was framed

Yes, I did shave .. close to 10 years ago. The current pic is the first one taken with the webcam on my new Imac ..

I am one of those "Bloom where you're planted" people .. and have waited 30 years to be where I am right now, doing exactly what I'm doing now .. I am involved in Transition PA .. also starting a quarter acre garden next month (planting peas on Tuesday) also coming up with some inventions .. if you need directions email me .. you can put this composting tumbler together for about $25.00

I have a lot more  stuff I'm involved in right now ... [email protected]

In case you're interested here are the original DALI and GREENSPAN pictures.

I have a good friend near Fort Smith .. would love to get down there before I need an electric car :-)

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Farmer Brown
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Posts: 1503
Re: Greenspan
JL Lord wrote:

caroline &/or DrKrby - I'm confused - What do you propose as a replacement for the Fed?
"Hanging the crooks" or "end the fed" does not help me to understand what would be a better alternative.

I can not claim to be an expert on the Fed, nor its workings. I can't say that its rules are fair nor unfair - but, most importantly, they are known.  And as long as the rules are known, then we all have the opportunity to 'play by the rules'. 
If someone understands those rules well enough to win (aka profit), then so be it.  I am by no means saying that it is perfect - yet I would love to hear an alternative suggestion for a structure.

For what it's worth...
I can't imagine such an entity being under the power of Congress...

I also can't imagine such an entity being under the power of the Prez...

To me, it makes perfect sense that it be outside the power of elected govt officials. As I understand, the Fed Board of Gov's are appointed by the Prez for a 14 yr term, with a gov's seat expiring every couple of years.

How do you think it should be changed?

JL,

The solution is to take the power of money creation away from everyone.  That is the basis of hard-money theory.  I posted this in another thread, but I'll repost it here because it makes hard-money theory very easy (in my opinion) to grasp:

Quote:

Pretend for a moment that dollar bills were not printed into existence.  Pretend that instead, dollar bills were mined from mountains, requiring actual labor and capital to extract.  

Now, imagine a scenario whereby, at the moment, it costs exactly $1 to extract $1 from the ground.  That is, the labor and capital it costs to dig up the earth, comb through all the rubbish, and extract $1 is $1.  Such a system would, in that moment, be balanced.  There would be no point in extracting any dollars because it would not be profitable.

Now, imagine the economy grows a little bit.  More goods and services come into being.  The cost of labor and capital goes down because there are more goods and services being chased by an equal-amount of dollars.  The dollar-mining companies immediately realize that (because that is the business they are in) it now costs them $0.90 to extract $1.  So, they mine dollars and make a nice 10% by doing so.  

I'm sure you know how the story concludes:  soon, they've produced enough dollars to catch up with the increase in goods and services, and their labor and capital costs are back up to $1 spent for every $1 extracted.  So, they stop mining for a while until the economy grows a little.

In this type of system, the money growth is naturally, automatically, double-feedback-looped controlled.  Now just pretend that what is being extracted is a commodity, such as gold, and you will understand why gold, or some type of commodity based money standard blows away the joke, the farce, and the theft, that is fiat money.

The role of government in a hard-money economy, would only be to enforce Standard Weights and Measures.  That is, there has to be certainty that the ounce of gold you are receiving really is an ounce of gold.  Government would only be allowed to create metal-based coinage, or notes backed by metal or coinage.

The Judicial branch, in my opinion, should be charged with auditing the governments books to make sure it is not printing more paper notes than there is gold to back them up.  Penalties for infractions should be categorized as criminal, not civil, and should carry the highest possible sentences short of the death penalty.

Fractional reserve banking, which I'm sure if you study you will agree is inmoral, must be outlawed.  You simply cannot have more than one claim on the same amount of money.  Penalties for infractions should be the same as those just stated above.

Proponents of interest-free money do not convince me.  I do not see how that would work.  Money is an asset, just like a house or a car.  Why shouldn't people be allowed to rent it to one another?  Eliminating the fiat-creation power of the government, which charges interest on money that was never worked for, is the problem, not interest itself.

In the end, you have to pick your poison:  fiat money controlled by the very few with no natural constraints, or a commodity-based money controlled by the market itself.  Gold just happens to have to best "money qualities". 

That's my rant.  Cheers,

Patrick

joe2baba's picture
joe2baba
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Offline)
Joined: Jun 17 2008
Posts: 807
Re: Greenspan

thanks patrick

i take it you are an american. you seem to have a grasp of what most of the founding fathers had in mind when they wrote the constitiution.

unfortunately hamilton has won and we no longer have a constitution.

joe

Farmer Brown's picture
Farmer Brown
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Offline)
Joined: Nov 23 2008
Posts: 1503
Re: Greenspan

joe2baba,

I'm actually a half-breed (Dad from Missouri and Mom from Costa Rica), but thanks for asking.  Spent 15 years in the US but now am back in CR.  However, I consider myself an "American".  I consider "America" to be more of an idea/philosophy/concept than a place.  As Thomas Paine said, "Though the flame of liberty may sometimes cease to shine, the coal shall never expire."    Likewise, the "American" ideal shall never expire because it is based on man's natural yearning for happiness and the right to work for it, irrespective of time and place.  America, i.e., the US, is the modern birthplace of the unleashing of man's natural aspirations.  Unfortunately, as you have stated, our own success has blinded us to the conditions that made such a success possible.  But, the pendulum swings, and current forces can only make it reach a certain point before it must change direction.  Cheers,

Patrick

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