Food and shelter

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pir8don's picture
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Food and shelter

I understand that during the 'great depression' farmers destroyed crops while people starved.

Now I understand that houses are going empty while people are without shelter.

Nothing has changed.

Don

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7 billion people can be wrong, very wrong

strabes's picture
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Re: Food and shelter

Yes.  And both of those ridiculous realities are a result of the financial oligarchy that controls the world and its criminal debt monetary system.  

watch Money Masters:   

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936&ei=p3WgSZDNA...

pir8don's picture
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Re: Food and shelter

Your preaching to the converted. Have a read of http://www.ranprieur.com/ for feb 20th post on anarchy.

Blame only leads to dispirited consensus or another big fix. There is no big fix. 

There are an awful lot of small fixes but.

Thanks for replying.

Don

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Re: Food and shelter
pir8don wrote:

I understand that during the 'great depression' farmers destroyed crops while people starved.

Now I understand that houses are going empty while people are without shelter.

Nothing has changed.

Don

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7 billion people can be wrong, very wrong

Don,

I hadn't heard about the crop destruction. Why did they do that?

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Re: Food and shelter

Just picked this up from Spark Notes; do with it as you wish

 http://www.sparknotes.com/history/american/depression/section5.rhtml

The Agricultural Adjustment Administration

Roosevelt also encouraged the creation of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration (AAA) to assist America's farmers. The AAA temporarily reset prices for farm commodities, including corn, wheat, rice, milk, cotton, and livestock, and then began subsidizing farmers to reduce production. Before the depression, many debt-ridden farmers had increased crop production in order to earn more money. Ironically, this increased production had led to overproduction, which flooded the market and drove prices down, forcing farmers to plant even more the next year in a never-ending cycle. The AAA, however, began paying farmers extra to plant less or destroy their surplus crops in order to raise prices again. Congress also passed the Farm Credit Act to provide loans to farmers in danger of bankruptcy.
The AAA was quite controversial, as many critics wondered why landowners rather than sharecroppers and tenant farmers were receiving federal aid. Indeed, some landowners who received aid unjustly used it to purchase farm equipment, which had the potential to eliminate farm owners' need for sharecroppers and tenant farmers entirely. Furthermore, many poorer and hungrier Americans were outraged that the government was paying farmers money to destroy perfectly edible crops in order to inflate prices. Despite these criticisms, however, the AAA did manage to raise prices to their pre–World War I highs.
pir8don's picture
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Re: Food and shelter

Sam

Just did a quick search

http://www.fireandknowledge.org/archives/2008/02/01/the-great-depression...

All the result of money and government. If you didn't have money you couldn't eat even though there was food. Government rules.

Has anything changed?

Don

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7 billion people can be wrong, very wrong

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Re: Food and shelter

There are several reasons I've heard about that, Sam.  The one that stuck in my mind were those who claimed they would not give away their hard earned crops.  What happened in the actual neighborhoods of the crops is never mentioned when one reads about these things, it's always talked about in sort of a global way.  "Ranchers killed their cows and farmers burned their crops."  Yeah, right. In my state, the old timers talk about how people moved to the country where the greed experienced in urban areas did not seem to exist so rampantly.  Many of those in New Orleans moved to bayou country I know because that's where the men in my family sent their families.  My favorite aunt always told me that the only adjustment was changing your views on what was important. 

I think most of what people think will  happen when everything crashes is through urban tinted glasses, and simply not something written about in our skewed press or even the great literature of the 1930's crowd.  "I had 18 people living in my house for Katrina" a local old timer told me yesterday.  "A lot of 'em didn't know how to do nothing at first" she said.  "I got 'em workin' normal, but it took me a coupla weeks" she said, offering me a glass of black cherry "cordial".

Rosemary

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Re: Food and shelter

Socialism. Same reason they're trying to inflate real estate prices now.  The ag lobby is huge and laws were passed to help politically connected farmers by subsidizing them to destroy crop to keep the price inflated.  

And people starved...gotta love government. 

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Re: Food and shelter
Rosemary Sims wrote:

  "I had 18 people living in my house for Katrina" a local old timer told me yesterday.  "A lot of 'em didn't know how to do nothing at first" she said.  "I got 'em workin' normal, but it took me a coupla weeks" she said, offering me a glass of black cherry "cordial".

Great quote. 

Some of 'em mite take a bit longer but.

Would love to have been there to see. Reality television!

Don

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Re: Food and shelter

"And both of those ridiculous realities are a result of the
financial oligarchy that controls the world and its criminal debt
monetary system. "

 

Strabes, don't you think that the financial oligarchy might only control you if finances are what is important to you?  

Rosemary

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Re: Food and shelter
strabes wrote:

Socialism. Same reason they're trying to inflate real estate prices now.  The ag lobby is huge and laws were passed to help politically connected farmers by subsidizing them to destroy crop to keep the price inflated.  

And people starved...gotta love government. 

Excuse me.  RICH PEOPLE DO NOT WANT SOCIALISM!  Socialism for rich people is FASCISM for the rest of us!

Has everyone forgotten that the fascists in Italy and Germany had an economic program that was central to their ideology?  It was based on the government and corporations conjoined like siamese twins.  In this dance however, the corporations always lead.  And they got to choose the music, too.

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Re: Food and shelter
Rosemary wrote:

That's a good question to ponder.  I think it does affect some people more because finance is important.  But it's far more pervasive than that.  The financial oligarchy controls our lives...the system within which we live, how we get food and shelter and be able to keep it instead of having it taken from us, our rights and who gets better standing with police and courts, it drives our political system, our philosophies, our religions, the inertia toward globalization and international government, etc etc.  

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Re: Food and shelter
durango wrote:

Excuse me.  RICH PEOPLE DO NOT WANT SOCIALISM!  Socialism for rich people is FASCISM for the rest of us!

 
That's the same thing...just a certain type of socialism.  German fascism was "National Socialism."
 
There is no such thing as socialism without a rich elite...even the communist form is run by a hypocritical powerful rich politburo. 
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Re: Food and shelter

Lisa G, Don, Rosemary, strabes -

Thanks to all of you for taking the time to educate me about a nasty part of the Depression. I'm usually not at a loss for words, but in this case ........................................ sigh..........................................Cry

 

Rosemary,

I did like your bit of down-home wisdom. Smile

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Re: Food and shelter

"Reality television!"

Heh, heh.  No, I prefer to think that is just reality. :)  If one doesn't listen to what our media presents, it is an amazingly different story to what actually happens as told by those you choose yourself that you know are truth tellers in your gut. (Like our Chris)  Usually these are not the victim sort, you know?  They don't make good stories, dyk.  I asked the maintenance guy here what he will do when things crash.  He said simply "Nothing.  I already live that way you're talking about".

If you review the media about what  happened during Katrina & Rita, and then talk to the old timers and small towners, it is an amazingly different story.  People are a lot more grounded and generous than the spectacular stories you have heard on tv that are greared to make you afraid so you buy things to make you feel safe. 

I lived in Texas at the time of those hurricanes but can remember weeping mightily as I watched the devastation and looting of my beloved city on my neighbor's tv.  But when I finally got home, I heard much more from the actual people involved about the heroics and the risks taken by hundreds of individuals for fellow human beings than I ever heard about looting.  Yes, there was an increase in crime (one of my friends got burglarized 3 times in 2 months), but there was much more awareness about what is really important in life.  When I think about that time now, I remember the 5 mile long caravan of trailered boats that came immediately from the area I live now to rescue people from rooftops in flooded New Orleans (not their favorite people, those New Orleanians, I mean, according to long time press).  They did not succeed in getting through for an amazingly long time thanks to a FEMA snafu ("Brownie"), but you must really think about the thought here.  Fellow humans (or dogs or horses or exotic snakes) need you and you respond with what you have. The government won't and has almost never responded appropriately to the needs of its citizens (there are too many?)  Our government has never worked, we just never admitted it before.

But you can and may respond to a neighbor in need, whatever your feelings for them.  Thinking about it here, that may be the basis of humankind banding together in the first place.  I really don't see why we can't do it again, do you?

Except that there are so many distractions keeping us from thinking freely about these things, aren't there?

Rosemary 

 

 

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Re: Food and shelter
Rosemary Sims wrote:

Except that there are so many distractions keeping us from thinking freely about these things, aren't there?

I guess we have had it so easy we have trouble seeing whats important any more. Life is so fast, if we don't keep running on the spot we will be left in the wake. Lets hope our crisis challenges us without destroying us. If people can organise to help others stay in their homes then there is still some hope.  I hope your government is not successful in stealing back the initiative and that people can see through their divisive plans.

Don

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7 billion people can be wrong, very wrong

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Re: Food and shelter
strabes wrote:
durango wrote:

Excuse me.  RICH PEOPLE DO NOT WANT SOCIALISM!  Socialism for rich people is FASCISM for the rest of us!

That's the same thing...just a certain type of socialism.  German fascism was "National Socialism."
There is no such thing as socialism without a rich elite...even the communist form is run by a hypocritical powerful rich politburo. 

 

This is a common misperception about the Third Reich.  Reactionary movements like fascism like to portray themselves as revolutionary and forward looking, however the opposite is true.  The full name of the Nazi party was Nationalist Socialist German Workers Party (in German, NSDAP).  The level of hypocrisy in this is staggering.  First, socialism is about a redistribution of surplus value in the form of taxes levied on productive activity, i.e., surplus value, and in turn benefits provided to society as a whole.  Private property still exists, but it is not used as a ploy to concentrate wealth in the hands of capitalists.  Some industry is held by the state when the social concerns outweigh the profitability.  In the real world there is no pure socialist system just as there are no truly free markets.  Also remember that socialism doesn't just burst on to the scene fully formed and complete.  There are always antecedents.  Rich elites before socialism will tend to stay rich in more enlightened societies.  The rate at which the become richer will decline somewhat.  There are always societal norms that operate before and after a socialist transformation.  They are very powerful in giving an instance of socialism its particular flavor, so to speak.  The Sandinistas were heavily influenced by the Catholic church.  Socialism and capitalism very often exist side by side in mixed economies like say, France and Israel.  In fact, Sandinista controlled Nicaragua had the same proportion of public and private enterprise as France.

In the case of the Nazis, the economy was a corporate feeding frenzy.  Workers rights were trampled, wages were reduced, unions were suppressed, the press was taken over, etc.  The Party was socialist in name only.  As mentioned before, the workers got the shaft from the Nazis.  When you include the slave labor component in the Nazi economy, i.e., Jews, Gypsies, Slavic's, political undesirables, etc.,  calling it a worker's party was crass to say the least.  The real economic agenda behind the Party was the enrichment of the corporate elite through warfare, conquest, slavery, and outright theft.  And woe was anyone who got in their way.  For a while at least.

And lest we forget, corporate America was enamored of the Nazis.  During the years before WWII, corporate investments in the rest of Europe dried up and flooded into Germany.  As Germany rearmed in preparation for conquest, the government was spending huge sums on military contracts and many corporations wanted a slice of the pie.  Shall we mention names?  How about ITT, Ford, International Harvester, du Pont, GM, IBM?  Some of them continued business after war was declared.  Some even received compensation for damage due to the war.  Can't you imagine their eyes lighting up when they realized they could take bazillions of dollars in capital and invest in industries protected by a government that terrorizes labor?

The difficulty in getting this point across lies in part with the success of the propaganda system in this country.  Every "-ism" that isn't capitalism tends to get lumped together in some amorphous category of "stuff we don't like to talk about".  The "we" being the corporate controlled media and their handmaidens like the educational system.  All of this is loaded with a lot of emotional baggage that is nearly impossible to penetrate.  It's like anyone who questions capitalism or the class basis of our society is in league with the devil or Osama bin Laden.  Do I exaggerate?  What about the term Islamo-fascist?  Is this silly or what?  The twit who coined that phrase either knows nothing about Islam and fascism, or he does and he's a liar of the highest degree.  As a result, socialists, communists, and Nazis are all the same in the public mind.  I would like to ask Joseph Goebbels his opinion in this.  He'd probably laugh himself sick.  Imagine near total control of a society without having to resort to concentration camps.  He'd be like a kid in a candy shop with a VISA card with no limit.  Here we are on a blog with presumably near total freedom of speech and yet it's nearly impossible to discuss Marx or socialism in an intelligent manner.  My hat's off to Fox News, CBS, PBS, Time, Newsweek, AP, and the lot of 'em.  Well done, boys!

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Re: Food and shelter

" If people can organise to help others stay in their homes then there is still some hope"

I don't know if a "successful" life itself is about helping others or helping ourselves feel useful actually.  I do try not to get too philosophical and stay grounded in day to day life.  My personal philosophy "in action"  when you get down to it is that if somebody is in need near me, I extend a hand.  As far as the world, or my state, or my parish goes, I read and comment.  But when a neighbor, regardless of political bent or color or morals is in trouble, my hand is out.  And I do think that is the way of most humans today practice real life on the real life level.

I really, really do not believe that we should even consider the "state of the world".  That is a fruitless task which can only create ulcers, considering the distractions.  I believe instead that we should do our utmost to help others to think on their own and support those who do, something that is almost lost in our society.

"Life is so fast, if we don't keep running on the spot we will be left in the wake"

Don, I really, really don't believe this.  Your experience of life is controlled by you and you alone.  If you choose to have it speed up by investing your time in keeping up (I'd guess this is a media controlled designation, no?), I guess you miss out on some things.  You may be surprised at how little the things you missed out on that really count in life experience at all.

 "I guess we have had it so easy we have trouble seeing whats important any more. "

I think that's exactly right.  We might begin with the basic question of human life:  Why?  Or as honed by early scientists and philosophers, What is the purpose of life?

That would be a really good start I think.

Rosemary

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Re: Food and shelter

Rosemary

My belief about speed comes from longish times spent in the natural environment. I found that I slowed right down and fell in step with the moon and tides. I also noticed that my eyes couldn't focus quickly enough for modern travel each time I returned. 

I keep most media out of my life but I live in society, all be it a relatively laid back and slow one here in almost rural New Zealand. Euclidean (rather than fractal) geometry shapes our thought processes and lives as do these infernal machines. Our thoughts are shaped by our environment and vice versa. Structured compartentalised thinking fills my head and steals my time. I can't be here without it effecting me. Even with a goodly amount of fractal input. 

rosemary wrote:

I really, really do not believe that we should even consider the "state
of the world".  That is a fruitless task which can only create ulcers,
considering the distractions.  I believe instead that we should do our
utmost to help others to think on their own and support those who do,
something that is almost lost in our society. 

 

State of the world is a pretty wide cover. Philosophy is my real joy. I want to hear what others think and offer my own thoughts, maybe even change my mind. I want to look out of the cave to see whats coming. I want to understand our situation. I want to test my understanding against my experience and that of others. I was lucky enough to miss a lot of schooling but to go to Uni a little later in life. Best of both worlds. Now, through circumstances and like many of us here, I have the time to look and see some of what others don't. I enjoy encountering new experiences and to dip into them. Then to draw back and take on board what I have found. That's what I am doing here. Never been in an Internet group like this before. Wouldn't be here if I hadn't concluded that money is going to end. Giving it a lot more attention than I ever have before because money feeds me and has done all my life and when (if?) it stops I need to be as prepared as I can be.

Don

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Re: Food and shelter
strabes wrote:
durango wrote:

Excuse me.  RICH PEOPLE DO NOT WANT SOCIALISM!  Socialism for rich people is FASCISM for the rest of us!

 
That's the same thing...just a certain type of socialism.  German fascism was "National Socialism."
 
There is no such thing as socialism without a rich elite...even the communist form is run by a hypocritical powerful rich politburo. 

 No, it is not the same thing. The Nazis used the word socialism but the descriptor, "national" changed everything. "Socialism" always needs a descriptor to describe the type of socialism.

Socialism without a rich elite existed before, in Spain. It is called Libertarian Socialism, or Anarchy, which is worth spending the time investigating. (And no, it is not the same thing as Libertarianism)

 http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/libsoc.html 

 

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Re: Food and shelter

Pir8don, wish I was in Oz. I hear you about the natural environment. It is hard for people to understand who have never been still in the woods. I practice Theravada Buddhism which leads me into nature very often and when coming back, I am calm, but the world seems so much faster. The wake you speak of only effects the people who are still riding the waves. :^)

I am living in Hawaii right now and the motion out here was always closer to sustainability. I think that everyone should pretend they live on an island and put up imaginary borders around the cities. But in the US there is too much land that led to the problem.

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Re: Food and shelter

Durango speaks sooth up in #16.

 

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Re: Food and shelter

Durango, I don't share your affection for or hope in socialism of any kind (except at the local community level where people take care of each other in relationship, not via bureaucrats and tyrants).  Debating the supply-side difference between control systems misses my whole point.  My point is, as your definition says, that top-down economic control systems require redistribution.  That's all.  There are people that control others, even if it's supposedly an anarchistic socialism (which has never existed except in the minds of academics or in the efforts of revolutionaries that have always failed).  I'm more concerned with the demand-side.  Control over others.  On the spectrum between anarchy (0% govt) and tyranny (100% govt), all forms of socialism are too far on the tyranny side for me.  And history shows every single attempt at serious socialism has resulted in more tyranny down the road.  Once you have Marx's notion of "from each, to each" accepted in society, then people accept control, then any narcissistic leader (like we've had in the US) knows how to manipulate people to vote to put them in power, and then the next step is that sociopathic killers are attracted to the system to take the power (roughly the personality diagnosis of every king/dictator in history).  I'd rather keep a republic...safely between anarchy and tyranny.  Unfortunately the only system close to that in the world that I'm aware of any longer is Switzerland (the US lost that status in the 20th century).  They probably don't call themselves a republic, but it's a system of dispersed power held at the canton level and the citizen level...power hungry tyrants can't get power at the national level.

 

quoatoan wrote:

Socialism without a rich elite existed before, in Spain. It is called Libertarian Socialism, or Anarchy, which is worth spending the time investigating. (And no, it is not the same thing as Libertarianism)

Great example of what I just said...it was just an idea that never really got established...had it been established it wouldn't have worked for very long.  It's just a matter of time before tyrants take more control to serve their own personal agendas. 

I appreciate listing some of the american corporations involved with German fascism because I'm a 1/2 Jew whose extended Polish family was exterminated, so I'm quite familiar with the corporate involvement, and I want more people to know about that story.  But again, has nothing to do with what I'm saying.  There are american corporations involved with every system of socialism and tyranny out there.  I never said anything about defending capitalism or the stupid knee-jerk reaction a lot of americans have being defensive about their system.  

Durango wrote:

Workers rights were trampled, wages were reduced, unions were suppressed, the press was taken over, etc.

Uh yeah, just like in every system, including all socialist systems and the financial fascist system we have in the US where the Fed suppresses wages by creating an environment of constant inflation (why families struggle to feed themselves now compared to 50 years ago when just dad worked, and he only worked til 5pm), only to fully crush them in deflation.  It's odd that you would list these things as if they were unique to German fascism.

To sum, I focus on the spectrum between anarchy and tyranny, not the categories political science departments have come up with over the years to cloak in more palatable terms the idea of people dictating how others live their lives.  I could care less whether corporations are involved to help the ruling elite control people (what you apparently focus on).  Either way, it's control.  

 

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Re: Food and shelter

Hi Croatoan

Glad you understand this in relation to time. Yes maybe tribalism is islandism. I am pleased to learn that Buddhism can achieve a slowing of time. 

Don

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7 billion people can be wrong, very wrong

 

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Re: Food and shelter

strabes, I am not here to educate you, all I can do is point at the moon. If someone tells you something it would be good to fact check on your own instead of repeating what you think is the truth. You have no understanding of Anarchism; historical or politically.

Anarchistic Socialism is redundant and never used by political scientists. What you said was Libertarian Socialist Socialism. =^/

Socialism can exists anywhere on the spectrum of Freedom to Tyranny from Libertarian Socialism to National Socialism

Anarchy is not 0% government. Anarchy advocates decentralized government. 

Feel free to read this: http://www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html Specifically, http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secI5.html

It was the Republic of Spain, and later Franco's tyranny, that ended the Spanish Anarchist Movement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Spain They tyranny came from the outside. 

And I like what Orwell had to about Spain when he visited during the revolutionary times: 

I had dropped more or less by chance into the only community of any size in Western Europe where political consciousness and disbelief in capitalism were more normal than their opposites. Up here in Aragon one was among tens of thousands of people, mainly though not entirely of working-class origin, all living at the same level and mingling on terms of equality. In theory it was perfect equality, and even in practice it was not far from it. There is a sense in which it would be true to say that one was experiencing a foretaste of Socialism, by which I mean that the prevailing mental atmosphere was that of Socialism. Many of the normal motives of civilized life--snobbishness, money-grubbing, fear of the boss, etc.--had simply ceased to exist. The ordinary class-division of society had disappeared to an extent that is almost unthinkable in the money-tainted air of England; there was no one there except the peasants and ourselves, and no one owned anyone else as his master. 

I think it is hysterical that you said " I'd rather keep a republic...safely between anarchy and tyranny". So, you like just a little bit of tyranny? Did everyone here that? He likes a little bit of tyranny in his world!

 

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Re: Food and shelter
strabes wrote:

To sum, I focus on the spectrum between anarchy and
tyranny, not the categories political science departments have come up
with over the years to cloak in more palatable terms the idea of people
dictating how others live their lives. I could care less whether
corporations are involved to help the ruling elite control people (what
you apparently focus on). Either way, it's control.

Oh strabes, I sure share your dislike of control. As a woman
living in a patriarchy, I can tell you it is really bad how people
control our reproductive rights and don't give us equal pay for equal
work. And don't even get me started on how people judge my gay friends'
personal lives. We are controlled on so many levels we don't even
realize it.

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Re: Food and shelter

Croatoan - I feel your desperate desire to hang onto the Chomsky textbook education.  I'll stick with real world.

Ceci1ia - yes, the harm caused by such cultural, economic, political, gender, family control is an abomination.  I'm still grieving the harm from the control I've suffered in my past.  I look forward to a world where control is not necessary.  Though I'm still learning to surrender to the reality that I won't see such a world on earth.  Makes me sad.  

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Re: Food and shelter

Sorry, I never read Chomsky. Really, I didn't. I came to understand Anarchy through Buddhism. 

I would be interested to hear why you think a little bit of tyranny is a good thing, Any where you got your term Anarchist Socialism. It must be in a Chomsky book because I have never heard that term before.

It is OK to be wrong and to learn from people who know more than you about a subject. You are not free as long as you are bound to your ideas and your pride. 

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Re: Food and shelter

I don't know a whole lot about Chomsky, but he's the MIT professor who is one of the more popular socialist thought leaders in the US.  I haven't heard him first hand, only 2nd hand analysis of him so I honestly don't know much about him. My understanding is that he preaches a benevolent/utopian form of socialism where we each govern ourselves.  I just added anarchistic as an adjective in front of socialism on my own as my way of labeling those types of socialist systems where the people govern themselves (I didn't mean to imply anything by that except they are supposedly not tyranny-based socialist systems).  I never heard your term Libertarian Socialism but I guessed it was that type of system.  

Maybe I'm being too pessimistic, but I don't think that type of benevolent system works on earth.  I think the human heart is too broken.  I therefore think some amount of government is necessary, and that's why I want a republic. It seems to be the most stable form of government that balances between anarchy and tyranny, though it only took 150 years or so for the US to lose its republic so maybe I'm wrong.  

I admire someone who engages philosophy/religion at the depth it seems you're doing with Buddhism.  I think all of our problems in life tie to broken human hearts.  We all need heart transformation.  I spent most of my life trying to control everything with my head.  That solved nothing and wasted a lot of time, though my head still gets in the way most of the time.  I want to spend the rest of my life engaging my heart and the hearts of others to pursue redemption and healing. Thank you for naming my arrogant pride.  I desire to be more tender.

SamLinder's picture
SamLinder
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Jul 10 2008
Posts: 1499
Re: Food and shelter
strabes wrote:

<snip>

I admire someone who engages philosophy/religion at the depth it seems you're doing with Buddhism.  I think all of our problems in life tie to broken human hearts.  We all need heart transformation.  I spent most of my life trying to control everything with my head.  That solved nothing and wasted a lot of time, though my head still gets in the way most of the time.  I want to spend the rest of my life engaging my heart and the hearts of others to pursue redemption and healing. Thank you for naming my arrogant pride.  I desire to be more tender.

I usually see a lot of respect for others opinions on this site - something which I appreciate and I admire.

Strabes, while engaging in vigorous debate in various threads, you obviously have a lot of respect for those who "duel" with you over various issues.

Your words above are reassuring. It seems to me that there are not enough people willing to be better than they are and yet you are obviously working at it. (Would that I had your strength of purpose!)

In short - you have my compliments, sir.

pir8don's picture
pir8don
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 30 2008
Posts: 456
Re: Food and shelter

Well said Sam. I would add that your comments Strabes represent practical responsible anarchy in action. Whatever views you might hold with regard to anarchy and ism's.

Don

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7 billion people can be wrong, very wrong

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