Financial Meltdown - Did we get here BY DESIGN or is it boom & bust cycle as in NATURE?

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gregoro
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Financial Meltdown - Did we get here BY DESIGN or is it boom & bust cycle as in NATURE?

Here's a comment followed by a couple of questions.  I'm sincerely not trying to be divisive with this first part...so please bear with me.

During the buildup to the most recent war in Iraq it was apparent to me, pre-invasion (from Knight Ridder; not US TV sources with "message multipliers") that the exigence and rational for war which were presented by the administration were not supported by the evidence.  But I understand that some products (such as ugly wars) require a good deal of marketing.  So although I was very skeptical, a small part of me hoped that the administration had a hidden agenda with some greater purpose.  I struggled to figure out what that might be.

Sequester Iraq's oil for a time of greater need?

Maintain a strong Middle East presence to prevent future bloodshed?

I really wanted to believe that our government was acting responsibly but, at the present, it appears to me that the motives were not pure.

Fast forward to 2009.  Is it possible that the Fed, Treasury, Congress, banking & investment institutions, and/or the administration are blowing the economy up on purpose....you know... for some greater good?  Maybe they understand that fractional lending has put us on the steep part of the curve and perhaps they determined that it is better to pour on the gasoline before lighting the match? 

Or does it actually come down to billions of people around the world, acting in their own perceived best interests?  We decide to purchase a new TV, read USA Today, vacation in Mexico, get a mortgage and billions upon billions of other little decisions....and that's how we manage to overpopulate, destroy the environment, strip mine resources, and create this collapse?  Is it just the natural boom and bust cycle of things and no single person or even any government has been able to alter the outcome?  Should we stop blaming the Fed, Bush, Obama, and everyone/everything else?.... and maybe look at what we might have done differently-as individuals?  Will we be capable of creating a sustainable society in the future and what would that look like?

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Re: Financial Meltdown - Did we get here BY DESIGN or is it ...

The exponential function can be observed everywhere in nature.

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Re: Financial Meltdown - Did we get here BY DESIGN or is it ...

Gregoro, you said:

Quote:

Maintain a strong Middle East presence to prevent future bloodshed?

I think you've very nearly hit the nail on the head. People do not yet realize how invasive radical Islam is, nor how violent.

The war in Iraq, in my opinion, was about stabilization of demographics. In Iraq, we had a perfect petri dish with which to grow the "penicillin" to radical Islams "bacteria":
- A seclular, educated society where women were allowed to be educate.
- A society with the ability to produce it's own oil for export (for the high demand future)
- A society ruled by a despotic bully, who few would fight to defend.

It was literally a perfect place to start building a middle eastern culture that wouldn't breed hate and contempt for the west... right?
Then, we go in, muck it up, and create a power vaccuum in which the Sunni and Shia groups vye for power with support from radical facist theocrats from Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia.

We tried to hold back the Taleban and prevent them from lending their invariable support to the cause and Al Quaeda, but were unsuccessful in realizing that when we translate Al Quaeda to "The Base" - the word base refers not to a collective, but a mentality. A pure form of radical belief.
Similar to how we refer to the far right wingers who cling to guns and religion as the "base" of the party.

So, tying this into the economy; I think it was simply a miscalculation.
They just didn't see the storm brewing.

The road to hell... and all.

Aaron

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Re: Financial Meltdown - Did we get here BY DESIGN or is it ...

I won't comment on the Iraq war as that will likely become an unresolved and ugly thread.

I will comment on whether booms and busts are natural though:  Booms and busts are and can be found in nature, and we could suffer from them too even without fiat money.  For example, weather cycles can cause bumper crops, which lead to a boom in agriculture production.  The Gold Rush of 1879 was a natural-resource fed boom in the West.  The drought of the 30's exasperated an already existing bust in the US.

These are all natural-resource-based or weather-based booms/busts.  So yes, I believe we would suffer from the phenomena one way or the other.  However, that is no rerason to equip ourselves with an artificial resource, i.e., fake money, to create our own booms and busts.  Nature supplies us with enough already, and they're painful, but there is no need create our own unless we're sadists. 

As for whether the government is making things worse on purpose, LOL, it certainly seems that way.  At least if their intentions were such, we couldn't call them incompetent!  But no, I highly doubt that is the case.  I believe Keynesians are sincere, in their glorious foolish blundering.  It's quite a convenient economic theory to embrace since there is always something at fault (and it's never government) that could be regulated.  Must make for quite some job security.  Of course that only lasts until the masses get angry enough and depose of you and all your government cronies. Unfortunately by then there is little left to destroy or save.

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Re: Financial Meltdown - Did we get here BY DESIGN or is it ...
gregoro wrote:

Fast forward to 2009.  Is it possible that the Fed, Treasury, Congress, banking & investment institutions, and/or the administration are blowing the economy up on purpose....you know... for some greater good?

Unfortunately, I do believe that a lot of what has occurred in the last several months has been on purpose. Unfortunately, I also think it is not for what most people who read this site would call the "greater good". The end result, if it goes the way "they" hope, will be greater concentration of power and control.

This rail way was well laid down by Wilson, FDR, LBJ, Bush II and numerous numerous others, the current administration is simply placing the train and as many cars on the track as possible and does not think their cars will derail even if the surrounding country turns into a famine strewn desert.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: Financial Meltdown - Did we get here BY DESIGN or is it ...
Aaron Moyer wrote:

Gregoro, you said:

Quote:

Maintain a strong Middle East presence to prevent future bloodshed?

I think you've very nearly hit the nail on the head. People do not yet realize how invasive radical Islam is, nor how violent.

The war in Iraq, in my opinion, was about stabilization of demographics. In Iraq, we had a perfect petri dish with which to grow the "penicillin" to radical Islams "bacteria":
- A seclular, educated society where women were allowed to be educate.
- A society with the ability to produce it's own oil for export (for the high demand future)
- A society ruled by a despotic bully, who few would fight to defend.

It was literally a perfect place to start building a middle eastern culture that wouldn't breed hate and contempt for the west... right?
Then, we go in, muck it up, and create a power vaccuum in which the Sunni and Shia groups vye for power with support from radical facist theocrats from Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia.

We tried to hold back the Taleban and prevent them from lending their invariable support to the cause and Al Quaeda, but were unsuccessful in realizing that when we translate Al Quaeda to "The Base" - the word base refers not to a collective, but a mentality. A pure form of radical belief.
Similar to how we refer to the far right wingers who cling to guns and religion as the "base" of the party.

So, tying this into the economy; I think it was simply a miscalculation.
They just didn't see the storm brewing.

The road to hell... and all.

Aaron

Aaron,

I think you'd find George Friedman's book, "America's Secret War: Inside the Hidden Worldwide Struggle Between America and Its Enemies" enlightening with regards to the Iraq War.  In my opinion, George Friedman is one of the best intelligence analysts out there and I inevitably find his strategic analyses to be cogent, incisive, and spot-on.  I could add other information I've gleaned on the subject but I'd like to get to bed early tonite. I agree there were miscalculations on this issue but the aggressiveness of the Islamic threat is certainly nothing new.  The Barbary Pirates and the Assassins are but two well-known historic examples of their actions.  

http://www.amazon.com/Americas-Secret-War-Worldwide-Struggle/dp/0385512457

 

However, I take the opposite view with regards to the economic crisis.  Examining all the evidence that I could find, it's hard to come to the conclusion that it wasn't engineered, based both on historical precedents and on the actions of the key people with the power to influence events.  These people are far from stupid and leave nothing to chance.  Chance is only for those who have no power to influence and control events. 

 

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Re: Financial Meltdown - Did we get here BY DESIGN or is it ...
Septimus wrote:
gregoro wrote:

Fast forward to 2009.  Is it possible that the Fed, Treasury, Congress, banking & investment institutions, and/or the administration are blowing the economy up on purpose....you know... for some greater good?

Unfortunately, I do believe that a lot of what has occurred in the last several months has been on purpose. Unfortunately, I also think it is not for what most people who read this site would call the "greater good". The end result, if it goes the way "they" hope, will be greater concentration of power and control.

This rail way was well laid down by Wilson, FDR, LBJ, Bush II and numerous numerous others, the current administration is simply placing the train and as many cars on the track as possible and does not think their cars will derail even if the surrounding country turns into a famine strewn desert.

I'm in agreement with Septimus and ao - the government wouldn't know how to do something for the "greater good" if it jumped up and bit them.

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Re: Financial Meltdown - Did we get here BY DESIGN or is it ...

Thanks to each of you for thoughtful responses.  Patrick, I think you really cut to the heart of my question.  Certainly there will be naturally occuring conditions that cause booms and busts.  And these might be heightened by poor planning on the part of humans.  And then there are wholely man-made booms and busts, such as fiat money and complicated financial instruments.  I guess the next question would be; is there any way to move beyond the boom & bust cycle?  Are we really, just like animals in nature, competing for scarce resources - country vs. country and neighbor vs. neighbor...and the cycles are the result?  Would we need to create a Ministry of Bubbles?  (The MoB would be responsible for spotting them and popping them, right?)  Would it require a true world-wide communist system?  A government that would be capable of setting limits and extinguishing competition that is harmful to the greater good?  Maybe this is the ultimate aim of the New World Order...a sustainable, one-world government for the benefit of all.  See, I'm right back to my hopeful hidden-adgenda-working-in-the-best-interests-of-humanity theory.  I know what you're thinking...this guy is a nut or really naive.  You're probably right.

Greg

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Re: Financial Meltdown - Did we get here BY DESIGN or is it ...
gregoro wrote:

See, I'm right back to my hopeful hidden-agenda-working-in-the-best-interests-of-humanity theory.

 

Hi Greg,

I admire your optimism. I wish I could be that optimistic too! When I look back at history and all cases that I can find where a person or group intended to do something for the greater good, that was not really what they truly intended or, in those cases where it was and it more or less worked for a while, what evolved from that did not ultimately work for the greater good. Human nature has not changed and, in my opinion, anything that does not recognize this and accept it and its implications gracefully (implications such as smaller cooperative groups tend to work best and bigger power structures must have working checks and balances to be successful and even then, human nature will undermine the checks and balances -( witness the U.S. Constitution - until the end result is nowhere near the original intent) is either doomed to failure or doomed to make the majority miserable (or brain washed) and subservient to those in power.

Excelsior,

Septimus

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