Financial collapse emanate ?

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investorzzo's picture
investorzzo
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Financial collapse emanate ?

California about to go under? Can't pay their bills. Tax payers can't get their returns!  This is happening all over the country. Every state in the US is in jepardy of going down the same path. Washington heading into the same BS that Bush did, just another puppet president.

Forclosures now at 3 times the 1933 height of the depression. I think we are now in a depression.

17 percent unemployed,  (by shadow stats. com)   1933 was 25 percent.  

Income percent of house hold debt now 118 percent. 1933 was 55 percent 

GDP debt is now 300 percent. 1933 was 150 percent.

Cash on hand -20 percent. 1933 was 50 percent liabilities.

These are just some of the statistic's from  Shadowstats.com   The real numbers that the government won't tell you.  

More than eight in ten cities are in trouble.  Up 64 percent from six months ago.

Fema (prison) camps are now ready as the backup plan.......................... 

 

Ready's picture
Ready
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Re: Financial collapse emanate ?

I agree with everything you say except possibility the prison camps. If I am not mistaken someone here drove by one of the reported camps and it was an old water treatment plant that had been abandoned? I forget who said this...

I have been hearing quite a bit about this activity, including a recent thread where NH had a bill to restate to the US govt that if they try anything stupid like martial law or indefinite imprisonment (fema camps?) they would succeed from the nation. If this is real, what do the politicians know or suspect is going to happen? This is a 2009 bill!

Snopes has nothing on the fema camps. Does anyone have any hard evidence they can offer?

Thx

Rog

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caroline_culbert
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Posts: 624
Re: Financial collapse emanate ?

No financial collapse emanate since the PTB will guard this with their lives.  They will not go down without a fight.  They have too much power to actually fight with.

Malden's picture
Malden
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Solution for global crisis

People don`t realize that money has no real value, so it can`t be treated like any other commodity.

All we see today is one huge monetary fraud and missunderstandig what money realy is.

Money is only a medium of exchange for goods and services. So it should be a gift, not a credit (debt).

It should be given to consumers in a proportion to national whealth increase. That way all goods and services would be sold.without fear of inflation.

To whom exactly, you wonder? To those people who goverment pays anyway through taxation. In that amount taxes would fell and all society prosper. No more debt slavery.

P.S. Sorry for my bad english.

 

 

 

 

 

Damnthematrix's picture
Damnthematrix
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Re: Financial collapse imminent?

Yep.  And we need it too.  Read this:

 

 
<http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/02/05-10>

Published on Thursday, February 5, 2009 by Grist Magazine
<http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2009/1/1/23367/28094>

Dear Barack and Michelle

An open letter to the president and first lady from the nation's top
climate scientist

by James Hansen & Anniek Hansen

29 December 2008
Michelle and Barack Obama
Chicago and Washington, D.C.
United States of America

*Dear Michelle and Barack*,

We write to you as fellow parents concerned about the Earth that will be
inherited by our children, grandchildren, and those yet to be born.

Barack has spoken of "a planet in peril" and noted that actions needed
to stem climate change have other merits. However, the nature of the
chosen actions will be of crucial importance.

We apologize for the length of this letter. But your personal attention
to these details could make all the difference in what surely will be
the most important matter of our times.

Jim has advised governments previously through regular channels. But
urgency now dictates a personal appeal. Scientists at the forefront of
climate research have seen a stream of new data in the past few years
with startling implications for humanity and all life on Earth.

Yet the information that most needs to be communicated to you concerns
the failure of policy approaches employed by nations most sincere and
concerned about stabilizing climate. Policies being discussed in
national and international circles now, which focus on 'goals' for
emission reduction and 'cap and trade,' have the same basic approach as
the Kyoto Protocol. This approach is ineffectual and not commensurate
with the climate threat. It could waste another decade, locking in
disastrous consequences for our planet and humanity.

The enclosure, "Tell Barack Obama the Truth -- the Whole Truth
<http://gristmill.grist.org/images/user/8/20081229_Obama_revised.pdf>"
[PDF] was sent to colleagues for comments as we left for a trip to
Europe. Their main suggestion was to add a summary of the specific
recommendations, preferably in a cover letter sent to both of you.

There is a profound disconnect between actions that policy circles are
considering and what the science demands for preservation of the planet.
A stark scientific conclusion, that we must reduce greenhouse gases
below present amounts to preserve nature and humanity, has become clear
to the relevant experts. The validity of this statement could be
verified by the National Academy of Sciences, which can deliver prompt
authoritative reports in response to a Presidential request^1 . NAS was
set up by President Lincoln for just such advisory purposes.

Science and policy cannot be divorced. It is still feasible to avert
climate disasters, but only if policies are consistent with what science
indicates to be required. Our three recommendations derive from the
science, including logical inferences based on empirical information
about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of specific past policy
approaches.

*1. Moratorium and phase-out of coal plants that do not capture and
store CO2.*

This is the /sine qua non/ for solving the climate problem. Coal
emissions must be phased out rapidly. Yes, it is a great challenge, but
one with enormous side benefits. Coal is responsible for as much
atmospheric carbon dioxide as the other fossil fuels combined, and its
reserves make coal even more important for the long run. Oil, the second
greatest contributor to atmospheric carbon dioxide, is already
substantially depleted, and it is impractical to capture carbon dioxide
emitted by vehicles. But if coal emissions are phased out promptly, a
range of actions including improved agricultural and forestry practices
could bring the level of atmospheric carbon dioxide back down, out of
the dangerous range.

As an example of coal's impact consider this: continued construction of
coal-fired power plants will raise atmospheric carbon dioxide to a level
at least approaching 500 ppm (parts per million). At that level, a
conservative estimate for the number of species that would be
exterminated (committed to extinction) is one million. The proportionate
contribution of a single power plant operating 50 years and burning ~100
rail cars of coal per day (100 tons of coal per rail car) would be about
400 species! Coal plants are factories of death. It is no wonder that
young people (and some not so young) are beginning to block new
construction.

* 2. Rising price on carbon emissions via a "carbon tax and 100 percent
dividend."*

A rising price on carbon emissions is the essential underlying support
needed to make all other climate policies work. For example, improved
building codes are essential, but full enforcement at all construction
and operations is impractical. A rising carbon price is the one
practical way to obtain compliance with codes designed to increase
energy efficiency. A rising carbon price is essential to "decarbonize"
the economy, i.e., to move the nation toward the era beyond fossil fuels.

The most effective way to achieve this is a carbon tax (on oil, gas, and
coal) at the well-head or port of entry. The tax will then appropriately
affect all products and activities that use fossil fuels. The public's
near-term, mid-term, and long-term lifestyle choices will be affected by
knowledge that the carbon tax rate will be rising. The public will
support the tax if it is returned to them, equal shares on a per capita
basis (half shares for children up to a maximum of two child-shares per
family), deposited monthly in bank accounts.

No large bureaucracy is needed. A person reducing his carbon footprint
more than average makes money. A person with large cars and a big house
will pay a tax much higher than the dividend. Not one cent goes to
Washington. No lobbyists will be supported. Unlike cap-and-trade, no
millionaires would be made at the expense of the public.

The tax will spur innovation as entrepreneurs compete to develop and
market low-carbon and no-carbon energies and products. The dividend puts
money in the pockets of consumers, stimulating the economy, and
providing the public a means to purchase the products.

A carbon tax is honest, clear and effective. It will increase energy
prices, but low and middle income people, especially, will find ways to
reduce carbon emissions so as to come out ahead. The rate of
infrastructure replacement, thus economic activity, can be modulated by
how fast the carbon tax rate increases.

Effects will permeate society. Food requiring lots of carbon emissions
to produce and transport will become more expensive and vice versa,
encouraging support of nearby farms as opposed to imports from half way
around the world. The carbon tax has social benefits. It is progressive.
It is useful to those most in need in hard times, providing them an
opportunity for larger dividend than tax. It will encourage illegal
immigrants to become legal, thus to obtain the dividend, and it will
discourage illegal immigration because everybody pays the tax, but only
legal citizens collect the dividend.

"Cap and trade" generates special interests, lobbyists, and trading
schemes, yielding non productive millionaires, all at public expense.
The public is fed up with such business. Tax with 100 percent dividend,
in contrast, would spur our economy, while aiding the disadvantaged, the
climate, and our national security.

* 3. Urgent R&D on fourth generation nuclear power with international
cooperation.*

Energy efficiency, renewable energies, and a "smart grid" deserve first
priority in our effort to reduce carbon emissions. With a rising carbon
price, renewable energy can perhaps handle all of our needs. However,
most experts believe that making such presumption probably would leave
us in 25 years with still a large contingent of coal-fired power plants
worldwide. Such a result would be disastrous for the planet, humanity,
and nature.

Fourth generation nuclear power (4th GNP) and coal-fired power plants
with carbon capture and sequestration (CCS) at present are the best
candidates to provide large baseload nearly carbon-free power (in case
renewable energies cannot do the entire job). Predictable criticism of
4th GNP (and CCS) is: "it cannot be ready before 2030." However, the
time needed could be much abbreviated with a Presidential initiative and
Congressional support.

Moreover, improved (3rd generation) light water reactors are available
for near-term needs. In our opinion, 4th GNP^2 deserves your strong
support, because it has the potential to help solve past problems with
nuclear power: nuclear waste, the need to mine for nuclear fuel, and
release of radioactive material ^3 . Potential proliferation of nuclear
material will always demand vigilance, but that will be true in any
case, and our safety is best secured if the United States is involved in
the technologies and helps define standards. Existing nuclear reactors
use less than 1% of the energy in uranium, leaving more than 99% in
long-lived nuclear waste. 4th GNP can "burn" that waste, leaving a small
volume of waste with a half-life of decades rather than thousands of
years. Thus 4th GNP could help solve the nuclear waste problem, which
must be dealt with in any case.

Because of this, a portion of the $25B that has been collected from
utilities to deal with nuclear waste justifiably could be used to
develop 4th generation reactors. The principal issue with nuclear power,
and other energy sources, is cost. Thus an R&D objective must be a
modularized reactor design that is cost competitive with coal. Without
such capability, it may be difficult to wean China and India from coal.
But all developing countries have great incentives for clean energy and
stable climate, and they will welcome technical cooperation aimed at
rapid development of a reproducible safe nuclear reactor. Potential for
cooperation with developing countries is implied by interest South Korea
has expressed in General Electric's design for a small scale 4th GNP
reactor. I do not have the expertise to advocate any specific project,
and there are alternative approaches for 4th GNP (see enclosure).

I am only suggesting that the assertion that 4th GNP technology cannot
be ready until 2030 is not necessarily valid. Indeed, with a
Presidential directive for the Nuclear Regulator Commission to give
priority to the review process, it is possible that a prototype reactor
could be constructed rapidly in the United States. CCS also deserves R&D
support. There is no such thing as clean coal at this time, and it is
doubtful that we will ever be able to fully eliminate emissions of
mercury, other heavy metals, and radioactive material in the mining and
burning of coal. However, because of the enormous number of dirty
coal-fired power plants in existence, the abundance of the fuel, and the
fact that CCS technology could be used at biofuel-fired power plants to
draw down atmospheric carbon dioxide, the technology deserves strong R&D
support.

* Summary*

An urgent ^4 geophysical fact has become clear. Burning all the fossil
fuels will destroy the planet we know, Creation, the planet of stable
climate in which civilization developed.

Of course it is unfair that everyone is looking to Barack to solve this
problem (and other problems!), but they are. He alone has a fleeting
opportunity to instigate fundamental change, and the ability to explain
the need for it to the public. Geophysical limits dictate the outline
for what must be done^5 . Because of the long lifetime of carbon dioxide
in the air, slowing the emissions cannot solve the problem. Instead a
large part of the total fossil fuels must be left in the ground. In
practice, that means coal.

The physics of the matter, together with empirical data, also define the
need for a carbon tax. Alternatives such as emission reduction targets,
cap and trade, cap and dividend, do not work, as proven by honest
efforts of the 'greenest' countries to comply with the Kyoto Protocol:

1. Japan: accepted the strongest emission reduction targets,
appropriately prides itself on having the most energy-efficient
industry, and yet its use of coal has sharply increased, as have
its total CO2 emissions. Japan offset its increases with purchases
of credits through the clean development mechanism in China,
intended to reduce emissions there, but Chinese emissions
increased rapidly.
2. Germany: subsidizes renewable energies heavily and accepts strong
emission reduction targets, yet plans to build a large number of
coal-fired power plants. They assert that they will have
cap-and-trade, with a cap that reduces emissions by whatever
amount is needed. But the physics tells us that if they continue
to burn coal, no cap can solve the problem, because of the long
carbon dioxide lifetime.
3. Other cases are described on my Columbia University web site,
e.g., Switzerland finances construction of coal plants, Sweden
builds them, and Australia exports coal and sets atmospheric
carbon dioxide goals so large as to guarantee destruction of much
of the life on the planet.

Indeed, "goals" and "caps" on carbon emissions are practically
worthless, if coal emissions continue, because of the exceedingly long
lifetime of carbon dioxide in the air. Nobody realistically expects that
the large readily available pools of oil and gas will be left in the
ground. Caps will not cause that to happen -- caps only slow the rate at
which the oil and gas are used. The only solution is to cut off the coal
source (and unconventional fossil fuels).

Coal phase-out and transition to the post-fossil fuel era requires an
increasing carbon price. A carbon tax at the wellhead or port of entry
reduces all uses of a fuel. In contrast, a less comprehensive cap has
the perverse effect of lowering the price of the fuel for other uses,
undercutting clean energy sources.^6 In contrast to the impracticality
of all nations agreeing to caps, and the impossibility of enforcement, a
carbon tax can readily be made near-global.^7

A Presidential directive for prompt investigation and proto-typing of
advanced safe nuclear power is needed to cover the possibility that
renewable energies cannot satisfy global energy needs. One of the
greatest dangers the world faces is the possibility that a vocal
minority of anti-nuclear activists could prevent phase-out of coal
emissions.

The challenges today, including climate change, are great and urgent.
Barack's leadership is essential to explain to the world what is needed.
The public, young and old, recognize the difficulties and will support
the actions needed for a fundamental change of direction.

*James and Anniek Hansen*
Pennsylvania United States of America

-----

*Footnotes:*

1. Given the brilliant scientists Barack has appointed to his team, is
there need for a National Academy of Sciences meeting? Yes, his team
surely would welcome not only clarification of the urgency of the
climate situation, but also interdisciplinary (economics, engineering,
physics, biology...) discussion and evaluation of policy options.
Barack's first year or two in office is almost surely our last best
chance to get the climate and energy strategy right in time to save the
future of our children and grandchildren.

2. I am not referring to the DOE's "Generation-4" nuclear program, which
is a diffuse program that will not yield rapid payoff. Instead, as
discussed below, there would need to be a Presidential directive to
pursue a path(s) with the potential to contribute to decarbonization of
global energy systems as rapidly as practical.

3. 4th generation reactors can include automatic shutdown in case of an
earthquake or other interruption. It is noteworthy that, even with the
presence of poorly designed nuclear power plants in the past, and in
some cases demonstrably sloppy operations, the waste from coal-fired
power plants has done far more damage, and even spread more radioactive
material around the world than all nuclear power plants combined,
including Chernobyl.

4. Urgency derives from the nearness of climate tipping points, beyond
which climate dynamics will cause rapid changes out of humanity's
control. Concern about such behavior derives not from theory or
speculation, but from improving knowledge of how the Earth responded to
past changes of atmospheric composition and from observations of ongoing
changes.

Tipping points occur because of amplifying feedbacks. Feedbacks include
loss of Arctic sea ice, melting glaciers and ice sheets, release of
'frozen' methane as tundra melts, and growth of vegetation on previously
frozen land. The surface changes increase the amount of sunlight
absorbed by Earth. Added methane reduces heat radiation to space,
amplifying the warming effect of carbon dioxide produced by burning
fossil fuels. Analysis of Earth's history helps reveal the level of
greenhouse gases needed to maintain a climate resembling the Holocene,
Creation, the period of reasonably stable climate in which civilization
developed. That carbon dioxide level, unsurprisingly in retrospect, is
less than the current 385 ppm (parts per million).

The safe amount for the long-term is no more than 350 ppm, probably
less. Pre-industrial carbon dioxide amount was 280 ppm. Precise
definition of a safe range requires better knowledge of all climate
forcing mechanisms. What is clear is that continuing fossil fuel
emissions will put Earth on an inexorable course toward an ice- free
state, a course punctuated by increasingly extreme disasters with
hundreds of millions of climate refugees. A large fraction of species on
Earth face certain extinction, if we burn most fossil fuels without
capturing and storing the carbon dioxide. New species may come into
being over many thousands of years, but all generations of our
descendants that we can imagine will live on a far more desolate planet
than the one we knew.

5. Total carbon in conventional fossil fuels (oil, gas, and coal), if
released to the air, is enough to initiate a dynamic transition to an
ice-free climate state, a transition that would be out of humanity's
control. A large fraction of the carbon dioxide emitted in burning
fossil fuels stays in the air many centuries. Thus the climate problem
cannot be solved by only slowing the rate at which we burn the fossil
fuels. Solution requires that a large part of total fossil fuels is left
in the ground, or the carbon dioxide captured and stored. In addition,
the unconventional fossil fuels (oil shale, tar sands, methane hydrates)
must be left largely untouched or the carbon dioxide captured and stored.

6. Now, with oil prices down, is when a hefty carbon tax should be
added. In the future, when the price of gasoline again reaches and
passes $4/gallon, most of this cost will be tax, staying in the country,
spread among consumers, and driving our economy to a clean future. The
public can understand this, if Barack explains it, and they will accept
it, if there is 100 percent dividend.

7. A carbon tax requires agreement of only several major nations. If any
given nation does not apply the tax, an equivalent duty can be applied
to their products at ports of entry.

© 2009 Grist Magazine, Inc.

Doctor James Hansen, an adjunct professor of Earth and Environmental
Sciences at Columbia University, heads the NASA Goddard Institute for
Space Sciences. Anniek Hansen is Dr. Hansen's wife and a climate
activist. His website can be found at: http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/
<http://www.columbia.edu/%7Ejeh1/>

DrKrbyLuv's picture
DrKrbyLuv
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 10 2008
Posts: 1995
Re: Financial collapse emanate ?

Excellent post investorzzo - It took the government a year to fess up to the fact that we were in reccesion, so a depression will take at least twice as long.

Why do they keep deceiving the people - it is OUR economy; not the banks or government.  Fortunately we have John Williams shadowstats.

They are at a new low by preparing for the coming implosion while keeping the people ignorant as long as possible.  Then it will of course be a total panic - they will be ready with their plan to further fleece and enslave us.  We'll have more emergency legislation, that will be rushed through under threat of a catastrophic loss of all our money.

 

 

Alex Szczech's picture
Alex Szczech
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 31 2008
Posts: 105
Re: Financial collapse imminent?
Damnthematrix wrote:

Yep.  And we need it too.  Read this:

  <http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/02/05-10>

  The Hansen's letter was excellent. Especially the part about using a carbon tax rather than 'cap and trade'. I hope the president and first lady read the letter, are inspired by it, and make fighting climate change the top priority of the Obama adminstration.  

 

csstudent's picture
csstudent
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Posts: 48
Re: Financial collapse emanate ?


R_Eddy wrote:

I agree with everything you say except possibility the prison camps. If I am not mistaken someone here drove by one of the reported camps and it was an old water treatment plant that had been abandoned? I forget who said this...

I have been hearing quite a bit about this activity, including a recent thread where NH had a bill to restate to the US govt that if they try anything stupid like martial law or indefinite imprisonment (fema camps?) they would succeed from the nation. If this is real, what do the politicians know or suspect is going to happen? This is a 2009 bill!

Snopes has nothing on the fema camps. Does anyone have any hard evidence they can offer?

Thx

Rog

 

I agree with you about the prison camps.  I live a few miles from one of these supposed "prison camps" and drive by it several times a week.  It's currently a very minimum security club fed facility.  In fact, when I moved here, I drove by it for several months before I ever realized it was a prison.

Ready's picture
Ready
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 30 2008
Posts: 917
Re: Financial collapse emanate ?
csstudent wrote:

R_Eddy wrote:

I agree with everything you say except possibility the prison camps. If I am not mistaken someone here drove by one of the reported camps and it was an old water treatment plant that had been abandoned? I forget who said this...

I have been hearing quite a bit about this activity, including a recent thread where NH had a bill to restate to the US govt that if they try anything stupid like martial law or indefinite imprisonment (fema camps?) they would succeed from the nation. If this is real, what do the politicians know or suspect is going to happen? This is a 2009 bill!

Snopes has nothing on the fema camps. Does anyone have any hard evidence they can offer?

Thx

Rog

 

I agree with you about the prison camps.  I live a few miles from one of these supposed "prison camps" and drive by it several times a week.  It's currently a very minimum security club fed facility.  In fact, when I moved here, I drove by it for several months before I ever realized it was a prison.

 Hmmmmm...

How big is it? How many could it realistically hold in addition to the dudes there now? Is it designed to hold people in that want out, or is it one of those "don't break out please" centers? I took a call at a "prison" a couple years ago where prisoners were actually outside mowing the lawn and such  with not even a fence between them and the rest of the world. Has there been recent construction of any kind? It there ANY evidence that this COULD be used for what we are being told, or would you say it is unequivocal BS?

Thx!

Rog

csstudent's picture
csstudent
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
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Posts: 48
Re: Financial collapse emanate ?
R_Eddy wrote:
csstudent wrote:


R_Eddy wrote:

I agree with everything you say except possibility the prison camps. If I am not mistaken someone here drove by one of the reported camps and it was an old water treatment plant that had been abandoned? I forget who said this...

I have been hearing quite a bit about this activity, including a recent thread where NH had a bill to restate to the US govt that if they try anything stupid like martial law or indefinite imprisonment (fema camps?) they would succeed from the nation. If this is real, what do the politicians know or suspect is going to happen? This is a 2009 bill!

Snopes has nothing on the fema camps. Does anyone have any hard evidence they can offer?

Thx

Rog

 

I agree with you about the prison camps.  I live a few miles from one of these supposed "prison camps" and drive by it several times a week.  It's currently a very minimum security club fed facility.  In fact, when I moved here, I drove by it for several months before I ever realized it was a prison.

 Hmmmmm...

How big is it? How many could it realistically hold in addition to the dudes there now? Is it designed to hold people in that want out, or is it one of those "don't break out please" centers? I took a call at a "prison" a couple years ago where prisoners were actually outside mowing the lawn and such  with not even a fence between them and the rest of the world. Has there been recent construction of any kind? It there ANY evidence that this COULD be used for what we are being told, or would you say it is unequivocal BS?

Thx!

Rog

It's basically a "don't break out because if you do, you'll go to a real prison" type of place.  I think most of the people there are for drug type offenses and have to serve sentences in the 1-3 year range.  In fact, I took my son to a boy scout camp a couple months ago and while all of these kids were there, the prisoners from that institution were there basically unsupervised cutting grass and cleaning up the place.

I found some pictures online of the place.  Email me privately and I'll send you the links. 

investorzzo's picture
investorzzo
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Nov 7 2008
Posts: 1182
A reversion to the mean spells RUIN

 With a new 2 trillion bailout looking to surface for the banks continued bailout, I see this as the end game finally coming together. Next stop: ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT...... investorzzo

 

The new
normal, not yet defined, has potential to be truly incomprehensible. 
The old, so-called “normal” growth path that leadership is betting the
ranch to salvage was an artificially created erroneous paradigm that is
now just beginning to implode.  By default, the US will take down the
rest of the Globes financial markets in this extraordinary process of
vile but necessary cleansing.  The irreparable financial sphere is now
poised to deliver itself a tsunami of forced-cleansing simply because
of leadership’s failure to exercise the wisdom and discipline to allow
the system to cleanse itself.

http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/russo/2009/0212.html 

Reuben Bailey's picture
Reuben Bailey
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Mar 17 2008
Posts: 138
Re: Financial collapse emanate ?

Sounds like a minimum security prison - if it is anything like the ones here in Maine, it could not be used for a prison camp - no fence and no extra beds, not to mention understaffed. 

All the best,

Reuben

investorzzo's picture
investorzzo
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
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Posts: 1182
Re: Financial collapse emanate ?

Thats why they are asking for 180 billion to bring these up to spec?

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