Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

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Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

This is it, folks. If they ever come after me like this, they'll have a serious fight on their hands.   This government is no longer even being subtle. See the paragraph that I've bolded/underlined. If you can't read this without getting mad, there's no hope for you! 

http://www.gata.org/node/7504

Feds seek IDs of those who commented on coin use trial

Section: Daily Dispatches

Review-Journal Resists Subpoena for Names of Readers Who Posted Views

By Joan Whitely
Las Vegas (Nevada) Review-Journal
Tuesday, June 16, 2009
http://www.lvrj.com/news/48145032.html

Review-Journal readers who posted online their views about a federal criminal tax trial are the target of a sweeping federal grand jury subpoena asking for information so that authorities may identify who they are and where they live.

The Review-Journal plans to file later this week a motion to quash the subpoena, and the American Civil Liberties Union has posted its own online solicitation asking those who posted whether they would like the ACLU to legally represent them.

The newspaper received the subpoena on June 2, and Editor Thomas Mitchell revealed the existence of the subpoena in a June 7 column.

This past week the grand jury subpoena, which is separate from the ongoing trial but was signed by one of the prosecutors involved in the tax trial, was the topic of discussion between the trial judge and attorneys, revealing a possible motive for the subpoena.

The newspaper's subpoena does not explain why the U.S. attorney's office wants to know who commented on the case, but prosecutors told federal Judge David Ezra that they issued it out of concern for jurors' safety, because some comments hinted at acts of violence.

Las Vegas business owner Robert Kahre and others face federal tax fraud charges for paying contractors with gold and silver U.S. coins based on the precious metal value of the coins but using the much lower face value of the coins for tax purposes.

As of 9 p.m. Monday, 173 comments were listed below the May 26 Review-Journal article about the trial. Many comments deal with the trial and its principal players. Others were posted after the subpoena arrived.

The subpoena bears the name of U.S. Assistant District Attorney J. Gregory Damm, who is part of the government team prosecuting Kahre and three others on charges that include tax evasion, fraud and criminal conspiracy.

Jury members, Damm, and Christopher Maietta, another government attorney, are the subjects of online comments that might be construed as threats.

On Thursday, the ACLU of Nevada also posted below the article an offer to help people who feel threatened by the subpoena. Allen Lichtenstein, general counsel of the civil rights organization, said it has received "several" inquiries.

Mitchell said the paper is resisting the sweeping nature of the subpoena, noting that anonymous speech is "a fundamental and historic part of this country," citing the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers that argued for passage and against passage of the nation's Constitution as an example. All were written under pseudonyms. He said the paper would consider cooperating if specific crimes or real threats were presented.

Interest in the Kahre case appears to run counter to a remark that Ezra made during a hearing to prepare for jury selection. If "CSI: Tax" were a television crime show, it wouldn't pull much audience, he said.

In the case, the government contends the defendants operated illegally, out of greed. The defense contends they had an honest but mistaken understanding of tax laws, and therefore had no criminal intent.

Many used the newspaper Web site to say the U.S. government has turned socialist, the nation's monetary system encourages deficit spending and guarantees inflation, or the Internal Revenue Service has to be reformed or abolished.

In addition to requesting the names of people who posted, the subpoena also tells the newspaper to supply the writers' gender, birth date, physical address, telephone number, Internet service provider, IP address, credit card numbers, and more.

The reason for the subpoena came up in court, outside the jury's presence, after an alternate juror sent a note to Ezra, explaining that his spouse had told him to avoid a certain talk radio station, which was discussing the trial. Ezra retained the alternate after he determined the man did not know any details of the broadcast.

Ezra said this past week in court that he would not be handling the subpoena. However, "any time we get people writing ... that if a particular verdict isn't reached, that jurors ought to come to physical harm -- that's no good. And if somebody wants to investigate that, that's their perfect right."

One commentator said, "The sad thing is there are 12 dummies on the jury who will convict him. They should be hung along with the feds."

Another writer suggested supporting Kahre with a public protest at the courthouse. A third writer advised moving it across the street from the courthouse, or to the local IRS office, to avoid court security officers.

Kahre has been gaining an opinionated Internet audience after an armed team from several law enforcement agencies raided several of his business locations -- including his sister's home office -- in 2003 to collect evidence for the tax case.

Readers' online feedback, mostly anonymous, is almost entirely pro-Kahre. Some comments personally attack Damm. One, for example, calls him a "socialist, fascist Mormon" and a "Nazi moron."

David Heller, senior staff lawyer at the Media Law Resource Center in New York, characterized the subpoena as "heavy-handed" and "bizarre."

"Federal prosecutors do have very wide latitude in investigating crimes," he said. "Even so, their power isn't unlimited." Some of the online comments struck Heller as "loose slang and hyperbolic language" rather than authentic threats to juror safety.

To ensure safety but still allay the concern about violating writers' First Amendment rights, the Justice Department could have avoided a blanket subpoena and sought instead only authors of specific comments, defense attorney Michael Kennedy said June 9 in court.

The subpoena might entail "mixed motives due to the personal animosity between the parties," the New York media lawyer said after he heard a description of several court actions that have pitted Kahre against Damm, going back several years.

After the raid in 2003 -- but before Kahre's 2005 indictment -- Kahre and several of his workers sued Damm, two IRS agents and others who had helped plan or execute it. That civil matter is on hold until after the criminal trial.

In February 2007, Kahre sued Damm and agents of the FBI and IRS, alleging they conducted themselves during the investigation in a way that constitutes a criminal pattern. Judge Ezra dismissed the complaint in December, but Kahre appealed and the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals heard oral arguments on Friday.

Kahre, his sister and a former assistant are standing trial for how they handled their own income taxes as well as their roles in Kahre's unique payroll system. Kahre paid workers at his six trade-related businesses in $50 gold or silver dollar coins. Those minted after 1985 are allowed to circulate as money. He also allowed workers to immediately exchange the coins for paper currency, as determined by the coins' investment value.

Two years ago, Damm prosecuted a similar tax case against nine defendants, including Kahre, on more than 160 counts. The trial ended with no convictions and four acquittals.

Five defendants were only partially acquitted, and two of them were dropped from the indictment that generated this trial.

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

Indeed these people feel very threatened by anyone that would try to find a way to not pay taxes. It is their life blood.

I would not be surprised that they would use storm trooper tactics to suppress any tax revolt or tax protest.

You know of course that if they get the names that these people will be first in line for a tax audit and maybe even candidates for the "NO FLY" list. If you pi$$ off someone in the government they will try to GET you.

Ken

 

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

This link is almost as bad as the one you highlighted Sam...

'Las Vegas business owner Robert Kahre and others face federal tax fraud charges for paying contractors with gold and silver U.S. coins based on the precious metal value of the coins but using the much lower face value of the coins for tax purposes.'

 

I was always under the impression that silver dollars and gold eagles minted by the government was money. This is completely aside from the fact that Gold and Silver IS money (dollars are simply currency).

The fact that these people are being prosecuted for doing this is silly. The fact that they are sending out subpoena's for all those commenting freely on line is ridiculous.

Mike

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

Any attempts at underminding the system at this point are going to bring a strong, swift government reaction.

Hencefourth, there will be no "attempts", should the FED get their way.
Dangerous, devious men control our lives gents. Make no doubts about it.
They scare the liberty out of most people.

Myself included. I don't want my life ruined by this kind of nonsense.

Cheers,

Aaron

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

How about this thing goes viral and 100,000 people post their anonymous comments on the Review-Journal post?  Why not innundate the thread with more posts and throw the gauntlet down on this malignant, ignorant, pervasive tumor of government we have accidentally grown for ourselves?  I would love to see them try to subpoena 100,000 people.  That would put this thing on the nightly news and maybe we can have a real debate in this country, not just about gold and silver, but also about civil rights.

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

Sam said:  This government is no longer even being subtle...If you can't read this without getting mad, there's no hope for you!

You're dmed right I'm mad, and not just at the PTB as we move from "soft" to "hard" tyranny.  We are being looted, our children are being brainwashed, new born americans come in the world enslaved in over $50,000 debt as part of their "citizen" process, our freedoms are being taken and our young people are dying and killing on quasi battlefields to enrich the PTB.

Where is the outrage?  When will it be enough?

Larry

PS - count me in Patrick!

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

 OK, I think its time to buy some guns, if I still can. I have been firmly against guns my whole life, but the need for them seems very apparent now. have some catching up to do on Aaron's firearm thread.

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm curious as hell!

Let me preface this by stating I am not trying to swat a hornet's nest with this post.

I read the article several times to make sure I didn't miss something.  Here's what I pulled out.

Some dude is going to trial for paying people with gold and silver using the value of the PM and is stating the face value of the coin for tax purposes.  I'm not a lawyer but it seems like this is criminal tax fraud to me.  Apparently others agree because it is a Federal criminal tax case.  Now the Feds are involved - seems like they should be for Federal tax issues.

Some other dude hangs a blog up about the trial and a bunch of people post to it hollering about the fact that the guy is going to trial.  Some of the posts (and I have not read any of them) might be construed as advocating physical violence against potential jurors and the prosecutors.  Some say the posts contained "loose slang and hyperbolic language" and implies that interpreting them as real threats is a stretch.  Either way, some level of discovery should take place IMO.  If I was selected as a potential juror in this case and I knew that these posts existed I'd be pretty pissed off if some level off effort to assess the viability of the "threat" wasn't expended.

Evidently there is some history between the prosecutor and the dude going to trial. 

So the prosecutor comes up with this subpeona that does seem a bit of a reach and heavy-handed. 

Am I the only one who thinks that this is merely the product of an overzealous prosecutor with a known and established adversarial history with the defendant and that there isn't anything more to it than what meets the eye?

When I see that all of these posters all show up on the No-Fly list and/or get audited as Ken discussed then I would agree that there is something else going on, but right now this strikes me as a tempest in a teapot.

Now for gosh sakes - don't you guys jump all over me, I'm just wondering out loud on this one.  I guess there's no hope for me, because I didn't get mad when I read this - only curious.

And Jeff, you gotta a lot of reading to do.  Skip to the end, cough up the $$ and buy a Sig. 

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

Oh the humanity! A Sig!
Dogs, you kill me.

I still don't understand why the federal government has any position on how private debts are serviced.
Archaic tax law, is my guess though. Sounds to me like the FED is going to go on Steroids under the Obama adminstration.

Thats too bad. When he said "change is coming" - even I hoped that he meant away from fascism.
'Course, has that ever been a political move?

Cheers,

Aaron

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!
Aaron Moyer wrote:

I still don't understand why the federal government has any position on how private debts are serviced.
Archaic tax law, is my guess though. Sounds to me like the FED is going to go on Steroids under the Obama adminstration.

Aaron -

LOL, wondered if you would rise to the bait on the Sig comment.

Not sure if your statement quoted above applies to the details of the case. 

Seems pretty clear to me that if you are paying employees for work in gold and silver coins based on the value of the PM contained therein, then allowing them to immediately turn around and exchange them for paper currency, but only reflecting the face value of the coin for tax purposes - then that is a load of crap. (Note to federal authorities monitoring this post - please do not misconstrue "load of crap" as threatening in any way as I promise not to throw said "load of crap" at anyone.)

 

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

Hey Dogs,

I definately see where you're right legally, and really, that isn't exactly a scrupulous business practice.
My problem isn't with this particular case. So long as Federal Reserve Notes remain a viable currency, I have no problem with being paid with them. That said, if I'm not mistaken, gold and silver coins can ONLY be used to redeem the cash dollar face value.

Which is also not very sensible. Basically, there are no winners here, only losers.

Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

Dogs,

I think that the biggest issue (for me) is that the government could have issued a subpoena for just those few responders that they considered made a threat but they want all the names.

 

Ken

 

edit:

Reminds me of somethng that happened several years ago- during the Clinton Admin actually. The gov. did not like what NRA was saying when Clinton was trying to push through more gun legislation so they issued a subpoena for all of the  member list of NRA.

 

Well NRA told them in so many terms that they could stuff their subpoena up where the sun does not shine. "We will see you in court". The gov backed off but why do you suppose they wanted the whole list??

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

Being locked out of the site for a few hours today prevented me from posting the following any earlier - although I did email it separately to Dogs:

Dogs_In_A_Pile wrote:

Let me preface this by stating I am not trying to swat a hornet's nest with this post.

I read the article several times to make sure I didn't miss something.  Here's what I pulled out.

Some dude is going to trial for paying people with gold and silver using the value of the PM and is stating the face value of the coin for tax purposes.  I'm not a lawyer but it seems like this is criminal tax fraud to me.  Apparently others agree because it is a Federal criminal tax case.  Now the Feds are involved - seems like they should be for Federal tax issues.

Some other dude hangs a blog up about the trial and a bunch of people post to it hollering about the fact that the guy is going to trial.  Some of the posts (and I have not read any of them) might be construed as advocating physical violence against potential jurors and the prosecutors.  Some say the posts contained "loose slang and hyperbolic language" and implies that interpreting them as real threats is a stretch.  Either way, some level of discovery should take place IMO.  If I was selected as a potential juror in this case and I knew that these posts existed I'd be pretty pissed off if some level off effort to assess the viability of the "threat" wasn't expended.

Evidently there is some history between the prosecutor and the dude going to trial.

So the prosecutor comes up with this subpeona that does seem a bit of a reach and heavy-handed.

Am I the only one who thinks that this is merely the product of an overzealous prosecutor with a known and established adversarial history with the defendant and that there isn't anything more to it than what meets the eye?

When I see that all of these posters all show up on the No-Fly list and/or get audited as Ken discussed then I would agree that there is something else going on, but right now this strikes me as a tempest in a teapot.

Now for gosh sakes - don't you guys jump all over me, I'm just wondering out loud on this one.  I guess there's no hope for me, because I didn't get mad when I read this - only curious.

And Jeff, you gotta a lot of reading to do.  Skip to the end, cough up the $$ and buy a Sig.

Sigh - there is no hope for you, Dogs. And just when I thought you had promise!

Actually, you really do miss the point that I'm trying to make here. Look at these two excerpted paragraphs:
 

Mitchell said the paper is resisting the sweeping nature of the subpoena, noting that anonymous speech is "a fundamental and historic part of this country," citing the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers that argued for passage and against passage of the nation's Constitution as an example. All were written under pseudonyms. He said the paper would consider cooperating if specific crimes or real threats were presented.

To ensure safety but still allay the concern about violating writers' First Amendment rights, the Justice Department could have avoided a blanket subpoena and sought instead only authors of specific comments, defense attorney Michael Kennedy said June 9 in court.

My complaint isn't about the facts of the case. It does appear that the defendant is trying to pull a fast one. That's a separate issue.

What really yanked my chain is "the sweeping nature of the subpoena". If someone made specific threats, fine - go track them down. As for the rest who were just mad at the government - that's what freedom of speech is about in this country!

How would you like it if the government decided to come after me for saying (which I did), "We need a second American Revolution in this country."? Then, not only do they come after me, but they also come after everyone else on this site who posted that they agreed with me. Then, for good measure, they decide to go after 'DrKrbyLuv' for espousing End the Fed and also everyone else on this site who posted that they agreed with him (including me).

And, to top it off, they not only come after the other posters for agreeing with me and Larry but also demand to know their gender, birth date, physical address, telephone number, Internet service provider, IP address, credit card numbers, and more.

Would you just roll over and say oki doki here's everything you want to know plus my first born? Knowing you, Dogs, I think not.

OK - are you ready to get mad yet?

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

Ken, Sam -

I don't understand the subpeona process enough, but it occurred to me that the "sweeping nature of the subpoena" is because the prosecutor took the easy route and wrote a single sweeping subpoena going after all 173 posts rather than write a subpeona for each post deemed threatening.  I just don't know enough about how that process works.  Let's not lose sight of the fact that some degree of due process and formality was applied and adhered to because the judge looked over the material and agreed that a subpeona was warranted.  Here's Judge Ezra's statement:

'Ezra said this past week in court that he would not be handling the subpoena. However, "any time we get people writing ... that if a particular verdict isn't reached, that jurors ought to come to physical harm -- that's no good. And if somebody wants to investigate that, that's their perfect right." '

Don't overlook the fact that Ezra is within the 9th Circuit Appellate Court's jurisdiction - the 9th Circuit is arguably the most liberal appeals court district in the country - so you'd figure Ezra would know his way around the farm with the way his bench decisions line up with the 9th.

It is clear from the original article that the prosecutor has a thing for Kahre - I think it's entirely plausible that he asked for issuance of a general subpeona because he was too lazy to present each post to the judge to determine whether or not a subpeona should be issued.

So no, I'm still not mad, just curiously following this one.

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

Dogs,

You're avoiding the issue.

If you were one of the posters and the feds showed up at your door with a subpoena demanding your gender, birth date, physical address, telephone number, Internet service provider, IP address, credit card numbers, and more, how would you react?

Would you just say: OK - here ya go?

The whole point of this issue is that agents/minions of the federal government are seizing, or trying to seize, more and more of our liberties.

You spent a career in the US Navy defending this country and its constitution (in fact, if memory serves, you swore an oath to our constitution). How can you reconcile that with just "being curious" when our fundamental liberties are being stripped away on a daily basis?
 

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

Well for one, if he showed up at my door I'd figure he already had my address and unless he was blind he could figure out my gender.  But since the subpeona was issued to the newspaper to provide that info, I wouldn't have much of a say would I?  If the subpeona had been issued properly after following the requisite due process, the newspaper would have to comply.  Then if and when the T Men showed up at my door they'd figure out pretty quickly that my post(s) didn't threaten or advocate violence against any of the jurors or the prosecutors so away they'd go. 

But if my posts did, then I should be investigated - I stated earlier that I would expect and demand such an investigation if I had been the subject of said threatening posts.

And don't tell me I'm avoiding the issue - I clearly stated why I think it may be a non-issue.  Just because we disagree doesn't mean I'm avoiding anything.

And last time I checked, I haven't been impacted by any loss of liberties.  If you can name one that was stripped away today let me know, because I can't name a single one that was stripped away today or yesterday or the day before.  But I'll be watching for one tomorrow - in vain I think, but I'll be watching.  And I have to tell you, your implication that I am abrogating my oath is more than offensive.

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!
Sorry for the run-on superparagraph.  I've tried to break it down several times but can't seem to get it to work.
 
 
 
 
Sam,
 
I agree with your outrage.  Unfortunately, this type of thing has been going on for so long, it's disgusting.  I had occasion to fly this past summer without ID.  Let me tell you, they know everything about you and they make you feel like a criminal.  You are guilty until proven innocent.  Quite a sobering experience.  
 
A number of years back, I had occasion to write an e-mail to the Clinton Whitehouse asking about an allegation in the book "Compromised" by Terry Reid (not a great book overall but some incredible revelations in parts, especially about the Iran Contra affair and related events).  I got a call from the Whitehouse that very night.  Very interesting.  All my wife had to say was "WHAT DID YOU SAY?".  I asked a very innocent question in the most innocent way possible ... no threats, no accusations, noallegations.  A friend of mine in the intelligence community told me later that I would be put "on The List".
 
As far back as the start of our country, Jefferson had threatened to start a second American Revolution if he did not get his way on a particular political issue (article in the Smithsonian).  He got his way and the threat was forgotten.  Also, read "The Book of Daniel Drew" about the illegal stock market manipulations that went on back in the early 1800s.  The conniving, scheming, and machinations were unbelievable.  
 
Moving on to the more modern era, read "War is a Racket" by Smedley Butler (Marine Corp major general, two time Medal of Honor winner, and a warrior's warrior).  He described the enormous and obscene profits made be US corporations as a consequence of our involvement in World War I.  He also describes how virtually all the conflicts he was involved in as a Marine (China, Phillipines, Central America banana wars, Cuba sugar interests, etc.) were all about corporate profits and had little to do about security, freedom, or democracy.  Also read about Edward Bernays, the father of modern spin, and how he coined the phrase "Making the World Safe for Democracy" used by Woodrow Wilson to get us involved in WW I.  Far more catchey than "Send your sons to France to be slaughtered on foreign battlefields for corporate profits".
 
Bernays had this to say:
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country."-Edward Bernays, Propaganda 
It's ironic that Bernays' book, "Crystallizing Public Opinion" was one of the favorite books on Joseph Goebbels' bookshelf, especially considering that Bernays was Jewish and thought his book would benefit mankind.  It did the exact opposite.
 
Up to the Vietnam era, read "An Enormous Crime" by Hendon and Stewart that gives overwhelming, undeniable, incontrovertible evidence for how we left hundreds of POWs in SE Asia for political reasons.  If you have any kind of heart for the American serviceman, you will read it and cry.
 
In the more present day era, read "Free Lunch" by David C. Johnson about how the plundering of America by the priviledged plutocracy.  You will get angrier and angrier, chapter by chapter.  By the end of the book, you'll want to head off with pitchfork and torch to confront the nearest collection of politicians.
 
Remember all the hub-bub recently about the NSA illegally monitoring phone conversations without court orders?  Read about the Echelon system and find out about how this has been going on for many years.  Every single phone conversation in this country is monitored without our consent.
 
It's been mentioned many times on this site but if you haven't read "The Web of Debt" by Ellen H. Brown, please do so.  I think it's the obligation of every American to know these things and support action against the Fed and the central banking interests.
 
All the fuss back in the fall about illegal naked short selling of financials with the government eventually cracking down on this activity while at the same time, there's been ongoing tacit support by the government through the bullion banks for naked short selling of gold with nary a whimper.  The hypocrisy is sickening. 
 
I could go on and on and on.  In short, the deception, lies, manipulations, etc. that have gone on throughout our history is overwhelming.  I realize that these type of things go on all over the world but until I educated myself in the last decade or so, I never dreamed that the magnitude or scale of these disgusting actions was so enormous.
 
So the question is, what do we do about it?
 
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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

LOL

since the treasury sells the coins for the gold and silver content i am amused

of course i have been amused my entire life

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

OK lets calm down for a moment and take a look at what we know...

  1. This is the 9th Circuit of appeals not an executive order, so due process will have been followed, the Court system is actually the final area of US Government that I actually believe functions constitutionally, Maybe because I know enough lawyers to know that you can't tell them to do anything that they don't want to, and if you order them to do something they're more stubborn than a Missouri mule with 900 lbs on its back, trying to be led past a female Donkey in heat.
  2. There were comments made about the Jury that could be read as threatening to their safety, The DA requested a Blanket Subpoena, for various information that we're not privy too its purpose at this time, however most of that could be used to trace the alleged offenders. Indeed normally a lot more information is collected for finding fugitives.
  3. There's history between the DA and Robert Kahre, so it's possible that the DA request was heavy handed, but the balance of the facts led the Judge to issue to Subpoena.

I've actually searched PACER for details of this, and can't find anything (although I found a lot of stuff on Kahre). As it happens the subpoena has nothing to do with the Kahre Case, other than in reference to comments made on Las Vegas Review Journal by people like us, anonymous posters. The Subpoena is about identifying those who made alleged threats against the jury, and the prosecutors.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_con...

Here's a link to slightly less biased information, the subpoena has been restricted to identifying two commentators who did make threatening statements. I don't think that this is the final straw in the least, I actually think that considering the comments that there is a valid reason to issue a subpoena for the identities of the offenders.

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!
Dogs_In_A_Pile wrote:

Well for one, if he showed up at my door I'd figure he already had my address and unless he was blind he could figure out my gender.  But since the subpeona was issued to the newspaper to provide that info, I wouldn't have much of a say would I?  If the subpeona had been issued properly after following the requisite due process, the newspaper would have to comply.  Then if and when the T Men showed up at my door they'd figure out pretty quickly that my post(s) didn't threaten or advocate violence against any of the jurors or the prosecutors so away they'd go. 

But if my posts did, then I should be investigated - I stated earlier that I would expect and demand such an investigation if I had been the subject of said threatening posts.

And don't tell me I'm avoiding the issue - I clearly stated why I think it may be a non-issue.  Just because we disagree doesn't mean I'm avoiding anything.

And last time I checked, I haven't been impacted by any loss of liberties.  If you can name one that was stripped away today let me know, because I can't name a single one that was stripped away today or yesterday or the day before.  But I'll be watching for one tomorrow - in vain I think, but I'll be watching.  And I have to tell you, your implication that I am abrogating my oath is more than offensive.

 

Dogs,

And I have to tell you, your implication that I am abrogating my oath is more than offensive.

You know me better than that. However, since that's how you interpreted my comment, I'll accept that it's your reality and rescind my statement with an apology.    It wasn't meant to cast aspersions on your character.

If you can name one that was stripped away today let me know, because I can't name a single one that was stripped away today or yesterday or the day before.

However, here is where we part company, my friend. If you don't think that our constitutional liberties haven't been shredded with the Patriot Act and various actions of the previous administration, I can only conclude that you've been the victim of too many percocets.

Surely you remember the story I shared elsewhere in these forums about the Muslim lawyer in Portland who was held incommunicado by the FBI for two weeks? (See Amendment 5 below)

Who had his house surreptitiously searched by the authorities before they even arrested him in direct violation of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. (See Amendment 4 below)

Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment 5 - Trial and Punishment, Compensation for Takings. Ratified 12/15/1791.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Why do we joke about the men in the black helicopters and dark suits who might show up in the middle of the night and spirit us away? Because we are actually afraid it can happen!

Remember, liberties are stolen a little bit at a time until one day you wake up and you have none. I know this isn't a life you want for your children. Certainly it isn't one I want for mine.

When I made the comment about you swearing an oath to uphold the constitution, it was to try to bring home the fact that the government you used to work for is no longer holding up its end of the bargain - and I honestly thought that would make you mad. Apparently, I'm mistaken.

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!
Gungnir wrote:

OK lets calm down for a moment and take a look at what we know...

  1. This is the 9th Circuit of appeals not an executive order, so due process will have been followed, the Court system is actually the final area of US Government that I actually believe functions constitutionally, Maybe because I know enough lawyers to know that you can't tell them to do anything that they don't want to, and if you order them to do something they're more stubborn than a Missouri mule with 900 lbs on its back, trying to be led past a female Donkey in heat.
  2. There were comments made about the Jury that could be read as threatening to their safety, The DA requested a Blanket Subpoena, for various information that we're not privy too its purpose at this time, however most of that could be used to trace the alleged offenders. Indeed normally a lot more information is collected for finding fugitives.
  3. There's history between the DA and Robert Kahre, so it's possible that the DA request was heavy handed, but the balance of the facts led the Judge to issue to Subpoena.

I've actually searched PACER for details of this, and can't find anything (although I found a lot of stuff on Kahre). As it happens the subpoena has nothing to do with the Kahre Case, other than in reference to comments made on Las Vegas Review Journal by people like us, anonymous posters. The Subpoena is about identifying those who made alleged threats against the jury, and the prosecutors.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_con...

Here's a link to slightly less biased information, the subpoena has been restricted to identifying two commentators who did make threatening statements. I don't think that this is the final straw in the least, I actually think that considering the comments that there is a valid reason to issue a subpoena for the identities of the offenders.

 

Gungnir,

Thank you for that link. It points out that this case is not as benign as you suggest. I'm going to post selected sections from that link right here to prove my point.

LAS VEGAS A Nevada newspaper reported Wednesday it will comply with a narrowed federal grand jury subpoena seeking information about the identity of two people who posted Web site comments about a criminal tax trial.

(Sam writes: Notice this is a highly reduced subpoena - down to 2 people from 100.)

The Las Vegas Review-Journal said the U.S. attorney's office in Las Vegas reduced its demand for information to "two comments that might be construed as threatening to jurors or prosecutors."

Review-Journal Editor Thomas Mitchell said the June 2 subpoena, seeking author data about 100 Web posts, was overly broad and would likely chill public debate on an important topic.

The American Civil Liberties Union of Nevada late Tuesday filed its own motion to stop the release of any author information, contending the original subpoena was unconstitutional.

(Sam writes: Notice the reference to "unconstitutional" - very, very important!)

"The right to speak anonymously about politics is older than the Constitution," McLetchie said, alluding to the Federalist and anti-Federalist papers, which were published under pseudonyms.

The major point at play here is that an agent of the Federal Government attempted to exercise an unconstitutional act which, by dint of his position as an attorney, he would have know was unconstitutional!

I am also amazed that a US District Judge (David Ezra) would go along with the original subpoena. This flies directly in the face of your point 1.

Gungnir, maybe this kind of garbage doesn't make you nervous - but it sure as hell makes me nervous!

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

Sam -

I was truly confused by (and clearly misinterpreted) your comment - since it wasn't your intent, there's no reason to apologize.

I don't recall your post about the Portland lawyer, but I read your sourced article.  Clearly a violation of this man's rights.  Was it a knee jerk, jack booted response to the Madrid bombing?  Yup.  Does it happen every day?  No.  But even once is cause for concern.

Do you know what the fallout from his detention was?

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

Sam -

An observation on post #20 - just because the ACLU contends something is unconstitutional doesn't mean it necessarily is.  Until the motion is upheld we can't say that it was unconstitutional.  If the motion is denied, then due process occurred and it is constitutional.

We'll have to wait and see how it unfolds.  I don't think anyone is disagreeing that the original subpeona was too far reaching, but the narrowed scope of the follow-on seems reasonable to me.

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

ao,

Thank you for that fascinating post. Your situation directly addresses my concerns about the shredding of the US Constitution and The Bill of Rights. No innocent US citizen or legal resident in this country should have to be concerned about asking questions of their government. The fact that your call elicited such a negative reaction is further proof that this is definitely a government we have to fear.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to read all the books that you've cited. However, based on what I have read, and seen lately, I'm firmly convinced that it's all pretty accurate.

Just as an historical example, this country stole Hawaii from its rightful citizens because the corporations (Del Monte) wanted to take over the country. And, by golly, with the help of the US Government and the US Navy, they did just that!

I'm so disgusted with all of this I just want to throw up.

As for the answer to your question - until enough people (as in Iran) get mad enough and take this country back, we will continue to be beaten down until we finally become the modern day slaves the power elite wants us to be.

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

"And last time I checked, I haven't been impacted by any loss of liberties."

OMG Dogs, you are simply out to lunch in this area, my friend.

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!
Dogs_In_A_Pile wrote:

Sam -

I was truly confused by (and clearly misinterpreted) your comment - since it wasn't your intent, there's no reason to apologize.

I don't recall your post about the Portland lawyer, but I read your sourced article.  Clearly a violation of this man's rights.  Was it a knee jerk, jack booted response to the Madrid bombing?  Yup.  Does it happen every day?  No.  But even once is cause for concern.

Do you know what the fallout from his detention was?

No harm, no foul, Dogs. We're still good.

Re the Portland lawyer - I'll be honest with you. I really don't know how often it happens. As you say - even once is cause for concern. And this is one we know about. How many don't we know about? (Or, as my favorite Secretary of Defense once said, "We don't know what we don't know." - What a brilliant man! Sigh.....)

The reason I'm so familiar with this case is because it happened literally on my doorstep. This guy was an attorney and his family and friends kicked up a big fuss. Even so, he was still held in detention for 19 days. The fallout was that the FBI apologized to him, he sued the US Government and was awarded two million taxpayer dollars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Mayfield

Brandon Mayfield (born July 15, 1966) is an American attorney in Washington County, Oregon. He is best known for being erroneously linked to the 2004 Madrid train bombings.

On May 6, 2004, the FBI arrested Mayfield as a material witness in connection with the Madrid attacks, and held him for over two weeks. Mayfield was never charged, and an FBI internal review later acknowledged serious errors in their investigation.

Ensuing lawsuits have resulted in a formal apology from the U.S. government, a $2 million settlement, and the overturning of provisions of the USA PATRIOT Act on constitutional grounds.

Mayfield's case has been referenced in numerous scientific, political, and social journals.[1]

 

Further on the case - the really scary part is the part I've bolded. He was never accused of anything, he was never charged with anything - he was just "disappeared"! The FBI wouldn't let a lawyer visit him, his family couldn't visit him. They hid him away from everyone and all because they thought he might know something! Doesn't that just scare the hell out of you? It does me!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5053007/

According to court documents, FBI agents began their surveillance of Mayfield two weeks after the attacks in the Spanish capital. Under a provision of the U.S. Patriot Act, they entered his home without his knowledge — but aroused the family’s suspicion by bolting the wrong lock on their way out and leaving a footprint on the rug that didn’t match any family members.

During a later raid, FBI agents took Mayfield’s computers, modem, safe deposit key, assorted papers, as well as copies of the Quran and what they classified as “Spanish documents” — apparently Spanish homework by one of Mayfield’s sons.

Mayfield, who runs a small Portland law office, was never facing any formal charges. He was arrested as a material witness, and held in the Multnomah County Detention Center on the chance that he might have information about the Spain bombings.

At a press conference, Mayfield talked about his time behind bars, initially in solitary confinement and then in the jail’s mental ward. Mayfield feared for his safety when inmates began to recognize him on the nightly news.

“The climate of fear of terror makes this a cautionary tale about the way in which that fear can ensnare an innocent person in the type of abuse to which Mr. Mayfield was subjected,” Wax said.

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!
Dogs_In_A_Pile wrote:

Sam -

An observation on post #20 - just because the ACLU contends something is unconstitutional doesn't mean it necessarily is.  Until the motion is upheld we can't say that it was unconstitutional.  If the motion is denied, then due process occurred and it is constitutional.

We'll have to wait and see how it unfolds.  I don't think anyone is disagreeing that the original subpeona was too far reaching, but the narrowed scope of the follow-on seems reasonable to me.

As much as I have never been a fan of the ACLU in the past, I must admit they are starting to look better and better as this government gets worse and worse. However, the ACLU is not in the habit of calling something unconstitutional if it isn't. In this case, it is so obvious even I was able to cite the appropriate section of the Bill of Rights.

Also, I don't agree with the notion that something is only constitutional if a motion is upheld. The constitution is quite explicit in most areas whether a particular court agrees with it or not. As far as I'm concerned, even the U.S. Supreme Court is fallible and history has shown that it has made decisions in the past that they ultimately reversed decades later.

Does that mean something was constitutional before and isn't now or vice versa? No. It means that we have a court system that decides from one day to the next what is constitutional. That's a bad way to run a country.

We definitely agree that the original subpoena was too far reaching. I also absolutely agree that the follow-on subpoena makes more sense since it is directed at two individuals who did indeed make threats of physical harm.

[Edited to change 'if' to 'is' in my second paragraph.]

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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

Sam -

I suppose the small comfort is in the fact that after recognizing and acknowledging that an eggregious error had occurred, compensation was given and changes were made.  It would seem that the system worked - albeit belatedly and after the fact.

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Dogs_In_A_Pile
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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!
jerrydon10 wrote:

"And last time I checked, I haven't been impacted by any loss of liberties."

OMG Dogs, you are simply out to lunch in this area, my friend.

No Jerry, I'm not.

The way I live my life has in no way been impacted by any liberties that may have been lost.  Read the comment again (slowly if necessary).  I did not say that liberties had not been lost.  I very explicitly stated that I have not been impacted.  I am doing nothing different today than I was doing 30 years ago - except for slower and grayer.

And until such time as you can cite specifically how I have been impacted, I'll take another pass through the buffett line.

Pass the pepper.........

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jerrydon10
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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!

Dogs are you a plant from the Federal government? No one can be that sheeple otherwise IMHO. You don't see any loss in liberties, have you tried flying lately? You will be made to produce your papers in airports just as the populace had to do in Nazi Germany.

Have you tried even staying in a hotel in most states? I travel all the time and without a government ID, you cannot sleep and take a shower on the road in many states.

I cannot buy liquor, guns, ammo, cigarettes or even use a credit card in many states without a government appoved photo ID.

Your papers, please.......This is like the facsist 30s and 40s, but Dogs doesn't see any problem with that. I have no idea why you have any credibility on this forum at all other than people are interested in your garden. I will try to buy some tomatoes from from you next year. Maybe

 

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SamLinder
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Re: Feds have finally crossed the line and I'm mad as hell!
Dogs_In_A_Pile wrote:

Sam -

I suppose the small comfort is in the fact that after recognizing and acknowledging that an eggregious error had occurred, compensation was given and changes were made.  It would seem that the system worked - albeit belatedly and after the fact.

Dogs,

You're too forgiving of TPTB. Mr. Mayfield had to sue to get compensation as well as to get changes made to the Patriot Act. Our government didn't do either of those things out of the goodness of their heart.

I'm not sure about the FBI apology but, if memory serves, they weren't too interested in doing that initially until they felt compelled (or were shamed?) to do so.

To say that the system worked is to put lipstick on a pig. The system was sued into working the way it should have by the very man they abused.

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