Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher

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Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher

The New York Times

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November 29, 2008

Wal-Mart Employee Trampled to Death by Customers

A Wal-Mart employee in suburban New York died after being trampled by a crush of shoppers who tore down the front doors and thronged into the store early Friday morning, turning the annual rite of post-Thanksgiving bargain hunting into a frenzy.

The 34-year-old employee, who was not identified, was knocked down by a crowd that broke down the doors of the Wal-Mart at the Green Acres Mall in Valley Stream, N.Y., and surged into the store. He was pronounced dead at a nearby hospital at 6 a.m.

The police said that three other shoppers were injured and a 28-year-old pregnant woman was taken to the hospital for observation.

One shopper, Kimberly Cribbs, said she was standing near the back of the crowd at around 5 a.m. on Friday when people started pulling the doors from their hinges and rushing into the store. She said several people were knocked to the ground, and parents had to grab their children by the hands to keep them from being caught in the crush.“They were falling all over each other,” she said. “It was terrible.”

The Nassau County Police said the man’s exact cause of death had not been determined. Wal-Mart did not immediately respond to phone messages seeking comment.

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Re: Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher

and these are the people we wish to give the crash course to so they will know what is going on

 

WE ARE DOOMED

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Re: Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher
joe2baba wrote:

and these are the people we wish to give the crash course to so they will know what is going on

 

WE ARE DOOMED

Joe2

It's really, really, really, hard to think otherwise in the face of such absurdity. Talk about non-inspirational group human behaviour.

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Re: Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher

And it gets worse.  Another walmart stampede in FL injures a shopper. 

 http://www.wftv.com/news/2670104/detail.html

I'm not feeling very optimistic about the future tonight.

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Re: Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher

I agree that such behavior is incomprehenseble and completely idiotic, but keep it in perspective.  Only  because we have coast to coast coverage by the msm do we even know about these things.  How many  Walmarts are there?  How many  of these incidents happened?  A handful at most.  In other words the vast vast majority of people do not behave like that.  Even among those who would line up at stores at 5AM the morning after Thanksgiving.  I cannot think of one person in my large range of acquaintances who I think would behave like that.  Can you?

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Re: Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher

I respectfully disagree, Doug, and here's why. Though I think we're perhaps coming at this from slightly different angles.

We clearly "agree that such behavior is incomprehensible and completely idiotic." Agreed.

However, you then say: "Only  because we have coast to coast coverage by the msm do we even know about these things." While this is clearly true it's also equally moot. It doesn't change the fact that such an occurrence actually happened, nor does it change the observations and conclusions one might come to regarding human behavior. Whether we know or not if something is occurring does not change the event itself or how someone might react to it.

My main point of contention with you is possibly here: "...the vast vast majority of people do not behave like that."

Now to be fair, I'm not sure whether you're arguing that the vast, vast majority of people do not wait outside retail stores at dawn on the day after Thanksgiving (clearly statistically true) or whether you're saying that the vast, vast majority of people who do wait outside retail stores at dawn on the day after Thanksgiving don't act in a rowdy, riotous manner.

If it's the first option, then I'm clearly in agreement. If it's the second, then I'm clearly in disagreement. From what I've seen -- and I've witnessed a couple of these events because I used to be in retail -- the vast, vast majority of these events are rowdy and riotous but only a handful, which get reported obviously, actually culminate in serious injuries or fatalities.

For me the discouraging part actually is not that someone died (though I say this with clearly no disrespect for the deceased or human life in general) but that it's a ritual in the US for people to assemble at ungodly hours en masse to shop like the crazed animals that they evidently are. Now it must also be pointed out that these events do not occur 1) only on the day after Thanksgiving and 2) only at Walmarts. This ritual, given the fact that it is a ritual, is widespread across both retailers and seasons. So to repeat, that's the depressing part. Not the fatalities.

Regarding your range of friends, I'm not surprised you don't know anyone who participates in such rituals. After all, you're a frequent poster on this website, which in my book makes you by definition non-ordinary.

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Re: Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher

...  and here we have a disgusting case of selfish excess being both denounced and accepted in the same breath.  As a short note to Doug, it is the msm who in fact do NOT report these things that we DON'T know about all but a fraction of them.  How do I know this you ask?  Because I am in the business of dealing with the aftermath of human emotion and insecurities run amuck, and I return home each evening to see nothing in the news except those small snippets of sensationalized tripe we call "news", but in fact is nothing more than entertainment for a public mass of voyeuristic fools.  We live in a violent, uncaring, and vulgar world, surrounded by stimulus designed to further the good of an elite ruling class.  Should we as a group, or as a people in general be outraged at this madness?  YES, and yet we shake our fists in the air in utter defiance of another fools insensitivity, while turning a blind eye to our own.

The reasons we see such acts escalate each year is that we allow ourselves to be swept up in false belief that unbridled buying is not only our responsibility, but our God-given right!  I am routinely ashamed at the acts of my fellow humans, and while I am never surprised at what we are capable of, I am nonetheless disappointed.  Add this day to that ever growing list.

Remember to listen well to your leaders, and "buy, buy, buy" - as the health of your nation depends on it!

Oh, and as a side note regarding the fate of the uncaring rogues who killed this man - among others - not to mention those who were injured, expect NOTHING in the news, because it is NOTHING that will ever come of this after today.

 

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Re: Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher

 

There is two way at looking at these stories.

One, it might help people realise how utterly stupid they are, guilty by association?

Or

Two, People who fall in to the category of a type who know nothing better than spending money just for the sake of getting a bargain. These people who part of a populace society I loathe. I have utter contempt for all these people. I'll educated garbige made up ignorant self indulgent selflothing women.

Why don't these people just take a gun make it surreal, if you want the bargain that badly why don't you just shoot your way to the front of the store. No better still your a hoard of mindless thugs on the rampage yet society has deemed this type of event normal. What is going on?  

Just thinking, I would sue Wall Mart for every last cent, There must be grounds to sue under Health and safety laws. They have clearly neglected or violated the safety of there staff.  

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Re: Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher

I'm curious as to anyone's thoughts on why spending this Black Friday was higher this year than last year, and why it was up at all when they were predicting a pretty bad decrease. Was it the "unbeatable" deals? Or maybe people are predicting the economy will get worse soon and better get stuff now while they still have a job and credit? Or just mindless consumerism at its worse?

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Re: Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher

rlee

"denounced and accepted in the same breath"?  The act was deplorable.  I don't think I implied that I accepted it in any way.

I would suggest that you and I are actually thinking of two different phenomena of the msm.  One is the routine horrific events that happen all the time all around us, but only passingly if at all make the evening news because of their very ordinariness, if you will; like drive byes, domestic atrocities, the daily carnage on the highways and such.

I was referring to a different phenomenon.  The one where the msm seems to be so starved for titillating news, they pick up an isolated incident like the Walmart death and blare it nationwide.  Sure it was awful, but worthy of nationwide news?  Not hardly.

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Re: Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher

Doug, I don't think you get it. These shoppers KILLED someone to shop. To get into a store, someone DIED and many were injured. What do you need, a 100 reports of this kind of behavior before you see how utterly disgusting this is? If it happens once, that's enough for me. It's not a matter of knowing someone capable of doing this, its a matter it was done at all. I mean, what if you find out like mainly women trampled this poor underpaid employee. Will it make it more horrific? More interesting for you? To me, one time shows how pathetic these people are, and it does reflect on our society in an extremely negative manner.  

 

 

RLEE, Don't they have a lot of cameras in Walmart? This must have been caught on video, being a main entrance. You really don't think anyone will be brought to justice over this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher
Bluemarble wrote:

And it gets worse. Another walmart stampede in FL injures a shopper.

http://www.wftv.com/news/2670104/detail.html

I'm not feeling very optimistic about the future tonight.

This was reported on Peak Oil lists in Australia as "What will they do when the shit REALLY hits the fan....? "

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Re: Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher
Damnthematrix wrote:
Bluemarble wrote:

And it gets worse. Another walmart stampede in FL injures a shopper.

http://www.wftv.com/news/2670104/detail.html

I'm not feeling very optimistic about the future tonight.

This was reported on Peak Oil lists in Australia as "What will they do when the shit REALLY hits the fan....? "

 

The gene pool will cleanse itself quickly.  Just don't get in the way as it is doing so.

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Re: Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher
krogoth wrote:

Doug, I don't think you get it. These shoppers KILLED someone to shop. To get into a store, someone DIED and many were injured. What do you need, a 100 reports of this kind of behavior before you see how utterly disgusting this is? If it happens once, that's enough for me. It's not a matter of knowing someone capable of doing this, its a matter it was done at all. I mean, what if you find out like mainly women trampled this poor underpaid employee. Will it make it more horrific? More interesting for you? To me, one time shows how pathetic these people are, and it does reflect on our society in an extremely negative manner.  

First, I'm pretty sure this death was accidental, even if the shoppers were grossly negligent.  I don't think any of those shoppers were hit men.  It's certainly something to think about for all those stores out there that encourage this kind of consumer behavior.  But, the fact remains it was one isolated incident.

Two, if you are so concerned about individual deaths, why aren't you out there trying to shut down our highway system where 40,000 deaths a year occur?  How about going out to the streets of our major urban centers where young men are being slaughtered at an extraordinary rate?

Bottom line, there are plenty of reasons out there for outrage and I have a limited capacity.  One accidental death does not reach the threshold.

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Re: Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher

Cameras yes, justice, no.

There was a case some years ago involving a truck driver in California who was pulled from his truck by a riotous mob, and beaten to death while a news helicopter diligently transmitted the carnage live.  The excuse for this act was a mob mentality, and there were plenty of do-gooding psycho-babble morons who testified to justify this outrageous violence.  Today as a result of that one case, the mob mentality defense is a valid one.  This case won't even get that far because in order to get into a courtroom, the State must prove "Intent", or an otherwise "Gross and reckless disregard".  Every one of these mad zombie consumers were merely "Rapped up in the frenzied excitement", and they acted in concert and like pursuit "without malice or reckless intent"

Doesn't that sound like a load of mumbo-jumbo BS?  It is!  And get this:  It's also reality.  Welcome to the Criminal Justice System, and what it's become.

If any of the founding fathers were to look upon the justice system as it is today, they would hang their heads in shame! 

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Re: Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher

I believe the truck driver you refer to was Reginald Denny.  He wasn't killed, just beaten up pretty good.

Yes,  intent is an element of any homicide.  It isn't a "load of mumbo jumbo BS", it is long standing black letter law.  You have to show that an individual actually intended to kill another individual or that he did it with "reckless indifference" in order to convict him of murder.  That  doesn't seem outrageous to me.

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Re: Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher

WHAT?  And reduce your GDP even more..?  Are you nuts...? 

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Re: Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher

Matrix, I didn't write that, Doug did.

 

 

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Re: Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher

A law has been broken I think

  

Manslaughter: Involuntary


Involuntary manslaughter usually refers to an unintentional killing that results from recklessness or criminal negligence, or from an unlawful act that is a misdemeanor or low-level felony (such as DUI). The usual distinction from voluntary manslaughter is that involuntary manslaughter (sometimes called "criminally negligent homicide") is a crime in which the victim's death is unintended.

For example, Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. Distraught, Dan heads to a local bar to drown his sorrows. After having five drinks, Dan jumps into his car and drives down the street at twice the posted speed limit, accidentally hitting and killing a pedestrian

 

 

Does this not fall under reckless negligence?

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Re: Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher

I beg to differ Doug, the Mob defense is not that long standing, and it is BS.  The reason most people commit acts of violence on each other is specifically their inability to control their emotional state.  Being too immature to maintain ones violent behaviors should yield a consequence, not a shoulder to cry on.  Remember your theory the next time someone you care about is battered, and the guilty party is released because they were just "a little tense, given all that's going on these days!"

BTW - "beaten up pretty good"?!  That should be enough to make the point.  Apparently you have a mortality threshold for violence that hasn't been met yet, so all this is still OK with you.  Since I deal with violence every day, my tolerance is a bit less than yours.

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Re: Early Consumer Spending Report out- and its higher

rlee

You've misconstrued what I said, or perhaps I wasn't as clear as I should have been.  I don't buy the mob violence defense, but state of mind is and always has been a necessary element for conviction of a crime.  In the Denny case a jury of their "peers" concluded the bad guys didn't have the necessary state of mind.  They apparently had a good defense attorney or a piss poor prosecutor (OJ anyone?)  I'll buy Krogoth's idea of involuntary manslaughter.  Whoever ran over the guy oughta pay.  My original point was only that this and similar types of accidents are common as dirt and doesn't deserve the media attention it got.

Locally, three women have disappeared under similar circumstances in the past couple years and never turned up.  None was the type to just take off.  Its generated some local media attention, but I'm much more exorcised about that than the poor schlump who got run over in the Walmart.  I'm not afraid that the perp in the Walmart case is going to be a repeat offender.  Whoever snatched the women already is.  Why isn't that getting nationwide attention?

As far as my "mortality threshold for violence" goes, I grew up around violence and have spent the rest of my life avoiding the circumstances under which violence might occur.  I have no tolerance for violence, but I've seen enough of the world to not get too worked up over one accidental death.

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Follow-up- Family of man trampled to death sues Wal-Mart

NEW YORK (CNN) -- The family of a man trampled to death in a New York Wal-Mart on Friday filed a lawsuit Wednesday, claiming the store failed to control the crowd pushing to gain entry on one of the busiest shopping days of the year.

A temporary worker at this Wal-Mart was crushed to death when shoppers rushed into the store last week.

A temporary worker at this Wal-Mart was crushed to death when shoppers rushed into the store last week.

Jdimytai Damour, 34, a temporary worker, was crushed as he and other employees tried to unlock the doors of the Wal-Mart at Green Acres Mall.

The wrongful-death lawsuit, filed in New York Supreme Court by the family's attorney, Jordan Hecht, names Wal-Mart and the mall's owner, manager and security firm as defendants.

The lawsuit alleges that Damour's death was caused by the "wanton disregard for public safety and gross negligence of the defendants."

Hecht also filed a notice of claim against Nassau County to preserve the family's right to file a lawsuit against its police department.

"When they heard of how he was eventually killed, that he died of asphyxiation, they were visibly shaken. They are angry because this was preventable, and have therefore exercised their right to seek justice in the court.

"They appreciate the outpouring of sympathy from across the country. They are terribly upset about what happened to their family member," Hecht said.

On Tuesday, lawyers said two Nassau County men who claim they were injured at the store also are suing Wal-Mart. Their lawyers also filed a notice of a $2 million claim against the Nassau County Police Department.

The mall's owners, Vornado Realty Trust, refused comment on the lawsuit in a statement issued Wednesday.

"We are saddened by the tragic occurrence, but we do not comment on pending or threatened litigation," the company said.

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Hank Mullany, Wal-Mart's northeast division president, released a statement about Damour's death Wednesday, which began by saying that Thursday morning, the company will release November's sales numbers.

"This event is overshadowed by the tragic death of Jdimytai Damour at our Valley Stream, New York, store. We have been in communication with members of his family to do what we can to help them through this difficult time," the statement said. "We will continue to work with local law enforcement officials so that together we can implement even stronger safety measures going forward."

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