do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our lives?

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strabes's picture
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do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our lives?

There's some opinion on this site that discussing matters of freedom and tyranny doesn't "matter to our lives," or that posts on those topics seem to come from "loony" people.  These opinions aren't just saying they disagree with how people bring their topics, but rather they're saying the topics are not legitimate to bring.

Why imply that the citizens of the United States are off-base if they agree with our founders that we should never give up freedom for security, or because they want to debate the policies/actions of the pentagon/homeland infrastructure in the spirit of our founders who said excessive executive power = tyranny? The reason this matters to our lives is because this is a country where power theoretically rests in the hands of the people.  If the people don't actively engage and debate what the government is doing (the responses to the terror war, the basis for the terror war, the responses to the economic collapse which parallel quite nicely with the facts in other countries that got sucked into tyranny), and they only plant gardens, then power rests in the hands of an unchecked executive branch, which again according to our founders is the basis for tyranny. Planting gardens is essential...it's on my list when I move...but that alone doesn't fulfill our duty as citizens of what used to be and maybe can be again a federal republic.  James Madison's view:

 

 

Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people.... [There is also an] inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and ... degeneracy of manners and of morals.... No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.

A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence agst. foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home. Among the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war, whenever a revolt was apprehended. Throughout all Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of defending, have enslaved the people.

 

Relating to this issue, it seems there are 2 dynamics happening on this site:  1) a group of people who desperately want to find a forum for discussing these supremely important issues because the "public forum" in the media doesn't address them at all but rather it focuses on Obama's dog and swine flu, and 2) a group of people who want to keep this site focused on sustainable community discussions.  It makes no sense for one group to slam the other.  Both of these groups are entirely legitimate.  Both groups are trying to find their way in this world.  Rather, than jumping on each other, Chris should make a definitive statement that, though group #1 is important and these are very legitimate issues to discuss, it's not the purpose of this site so he will not allow such discussion.  If Chris does not make this statement, then he's implicitly stating he's ok with group #1 discussing those topics and group #2 should not criticize them for focusing on things that don't matter.

 

 

 

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Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

 You cannot discuss economics without discussing liberty.  In fact, you cannot have an economy without liberty.  So, I can't imagine why discussions of liberty shouldn't be allowed on this site, but I also do not see a need for Chris to make a statement one way or the other.  I don't mind defending myself.  Attacks can only educate me or make me stronger.

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Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

short answer no

question ..................who is james madison?

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Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...
strabes wrote:

Relating to this issue, it seems there are 2 dynamics happening on this site:  1) a group of people who desperately want to find a forum for discussing these supremely important issues because the "public forum" in the media doesn't address them at all but rather it focuses on Obama's dog and swine flu, and 2) a group of people who want to keep this site focused on sustainable community discussions.  It makes no sense for one group to slam the other.  Both of these groups are entirely legitimate.  Both groups are trying to find their way in this world.  Rather, than jumping on each other, Chris should make a definitive statement that, though group #1 is important and these are very legitimate issues to discuss, it's not the purpose of this site so he will not allow such discussion.  If Chris does not make this statement, then he's implicitly stating he's ok with group #1 discussing those topics and group #2 should not criticize them for focusing on things that don't matter.

Very well stated!

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Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

Strabes,

Discussions of the founding fathers take on liberty and our responsibilities is something that actually does good.

Encouraging people to understand the rights and responsibilities of citizenship is not "loony" talk, as is the endless bickering about who's conspiring about what. This type of discussion has everything the conspiracy does not; it educates and opens dialogue on how society should function, and helps us understand the problems we're entrenched in.

So, perhaps we should discuss what's "legitimate" as well.
By being active in our community, state and regional politics; educating people to the principles on which we were founded and the ideals of free market capitalism are absolutely legitimate.

To the "some" out there who think that some topics are a waste of time - perhaps the hint should be taken for those who want to discuss unsubstantiated conjectural conspiracies. I'm sure most everyone will agree the founding fathers don't fall under this topic.

Cheers.

Aaron

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Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

joe, he lives down your street.

Thanks doc!

aaron, I guess the murky area is where people are trying to talk about some of the stuff our "standing army" today (DOD, Homeland, CIA, NSA, state police, etc) is doing.  In my mind this is directly relevant to Madison's concerns. In other people's minds it approaches "conspiracy theory."  

 

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Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

 

Quote:

I guess the murky area is where people are trying to talk about some of the stuff our "standing army" today (DOD, Homeland, CIA, NSA, state police, etc) is doing.  In my mind this is directly relevant to Madison's concerns. In other people's minds it approaches "conspiracy theory."  

Strabes,

In my mind, a "conspiracy theory" is just like any other theory, except it invokes the coordinated and covert actions of a number of people to explain observed phenomena.  I don't understand why Conspiracy Theorists are so sensitive to this term.  What would be a better term for theories that invoke coordinated and covert actions of a number of people to explain observed phenomena?

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Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

What an excellent post strabes.

It seems like there is an element in here that, no matter how much evidence you supply them; no matter that science is heavily weighing on one side of the argument and there is absolutely no science or logic on the other side, they simply don't care. In fact, they will just stick their collective heads in the sand and pretend that the argument prevailing the discussion does not even exist. In one thread, I addressed several people to debate a topic trying to get them to logically discuss point A, then B, then C, let's reach some conclusions.

Nope. The attitude is: I know I cannot win any points in this discussion, now how do I make this all go away.

Many people read in here. People are not stupid. They can see through this illogical diatribe as they read in and it is not positive to the forum or the CM message to make intellectually collective fools of ourselves in public; I for one am convinced that this is just what some of us are doing.

And I agree that many are simply willing to let our freedoms go. So, your government is what it is, what can we do about it? Let's just move out on our little farms, become isolationists and let life pass us by. Excuse me while I don't worry about the causes that got me here, I'll just go plant my garden, milk my goat and it will all go away. Uh huh......it won't go away until we address the inner issues that have got us to this point and we cannot address them unless we discuss them and understand them.

I totally agree with you that our founding fathers espoused that excessive government is tyranny. What are we living under now other than excess government? This is not tyranny? Tyranny is here, yet many people's answer to address this problem is to go get a cow and some chickens. What?

That is a very small semi-solution to one little part of a very big problem. Let's discuss the big problem while we milk the goats. Why is that proposition mutually exclusive?

 

 

 

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Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...
ccpetersmd wrote:
strabes wrote:

Relating to this issue, it seems there are 2 dynamics happening on this site:  1) a group of people who desperately want to find a forum for discussing these supremely important issues because the "public forum" in the media doesn't address them at all but rather it focuses on Obama's dog and swine flu, and 2) a group of people who want to keep this site focused on sustainable community discussions.  It makes no sense for one group to slam the other.  Both of these groups are entirely legitimate.  Both groups are trying to find their way in this world.  Rather, than jumping on each other, Chris should make a definitive statement that, though group #1 is important and these are very legitimate issues to discuss, it's not the purpose of this site so he will not allow such discussion.  If Chris does not make this statement, then he's implicitly stating he's ok with group #1 discussing those topics and group #2 should not criticize them for focusing on things that don't matter.

Very well stated!

Strabes,

I agree with Dr Peters as regards your post. We recently attended the Lowesville Seminar and prior to arriving we visited the home of Thomas Jefferson in Charlottesville VA and came away with a renewed understanding about the man and what he stood for. Jeffersons' viewpoint that a populace which was not educated or was unable to engage in dialogue as regards the issues which faced them would not be able to sustain their liberty. The book "Thomas Jefferson on Leadership" by Coy Barefoot is a good read into the values he  shared with our young nation.

A problem we all face today is how one individual can make a difference in the outcome of issues we face. Certainly our governments choice to turn their back on overwhelming opposition to the "bailout" last fall was a good example of governance without regard to public opinion.  But that does not mean that we should disregard broader issues in favor of affecting change in only our garden either.

IMHO this site is in support of both #1 and #2 issues which you outlined above and I doubt very seriously that CM would take issue with either subject. He may be dissappointed with whining and sniveling between groups however!  I am too. Can we move on?

Coop

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Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

You guys have made good points, now do something about it. You want liberty and justice? It doesnt happen with everyone bickering about different views. As I said in other threads, as long as we sit here, veins popping and testosterone filled behind our computers, and arguing about material from questionable sources, the government will always have the power. When we gather in mass, with a common goal, thats when we have the power, and thats what the government is trying to prevent. You guys are serving your governments own purpose, divide and conquer; therefore, you will never have liberty, justice, or freedom.

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Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

So, SPM, you actually agree with everyone on here on everything? Cool. I don't even understand that, but cool.

But how do we even understand who and what we disagree with until we discuss the issues with them. I suppose that there is a way to do this using osmosis or something and I have just not discovered that yet.

 Also, there are no veins bulging and no testosterone behind my computer. In fact, I am a woman.

OK, that last line was a lie but I think the rest of this post is fairly accurate. He he

 

 

 

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Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

*****It makes no sense for one group to slam the other.  Both of these groups are entirely legitimate.  Both groups are trying to find their way in this world.*****

And I think both groups are trying to find their way in this forum.

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Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

I guess I should stop calling you Jerry then  You could have high blood pressure. I probably do.

I don't follow you on the agree part though.

Osmosis could work, here come closer.

 

I think we have a fine line between what is truly shananigans carried out by the government, and what information is purposefully disseminated to divide.

I'm starting a thread on psychological operations. I think its important. I still have to gather info on it though.

Sorry to get off topic Strabes.

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Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

LOL.....SPM, quit getting me in a good mood....

Just kidding. Nite guys!

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Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

Some of the emotion from the other thread has found its way here.  I was hoping to start anew, but I guess that wasn't totally possible since the other thread was a catalyst for writing this one.  

Patrick, I guess you're right but I think some who use the CT term are doing it to undermine and marginalize the theorist.  

Coop, awesome.  I think any time one spends in Monticello is time well spent.  Speaking of Jefferson, while Madison thought standing armies were the biggest threat to freedom, Jefferson put them 2nd..... 

"banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies"  - Thomas Jefferson in a letter to John Taylor, Monticello, 28 May 1816

SPM, in the last paragraph in the top post I was trying to get us to stop dividing into groups 1, 2, and 3 (the majority who abstains from fighting on the other posts) by explaining what's causing the bickering.  How is that divide and conquer? Did it sound divisive?  I know some of the posts after that got emotional, so if that's what you're referring to then I understand.  

 

 

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Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...
SPM wrote:

You guys have made good points, now do something about it. You want liberty and justice? It doesnt happen with everyone bickering about different views.

<snip>

  When we gather in mass, with a common goal, thats when we have the power, and thats what the government is trying to prevent.

OK - let's accept for the moment that everyone on this site is in agreement that our government is totally out of control and all the theories regarding their despicable actions are true. (I'm not being facetious here - I'm making a flat statement to make a point)

In the 1700's, people lived in villages and towns and pretty much knew all their neighbors. When they got riled up, they gathered on the village green with their pitchforks and muskets and marched to the local seat of government (which, as you may remember, was British) to air their grievances. Note that people were able to assemble fairly quickly because they all lived near each other.

Now flash forward more than 200 years. This village, called PeakProsperity.com, is spread not only across the country, it is also spread across the world. This makes it a bit difficult to quickly gather together physically and march ....... where?

In my case, it's a bit difficult to march on Washington, DC as it is 3,000 miles east of me.

Besides, I'm old and decrepit!

Bear in mind that howling protests from around the country by email and telephone to Congress last fall in opposition to the bailout bill did not accomplish a damn thing. Thus, it appears that method has no traction.

In 2003, tens of thousands of people across the country marched in the streets (including Washington, DC) protesting the beginning of the Iraq war - the net results - again nada.

Just a couple of weeks ago, protests were held around the country demanding change. It turned into a poor man's tea party.

SPM - you want us all to do something about it. Fine - you're right - something should be done. Exactly what would you have us do?

I seriously await your recommendations with interest.

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History is our teacher. It's a pity some are such poor learners!

"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance." -- James Madison, President of the United States

"The bold effort the present (central) bank had made to control the government ... are but premonitions of the fate that await the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the establishment of another like it." -- Andrew Jackson, President of the United States

"Gentlemen, I have had men watching you for a long time and I am convinced that you have used the funds of the bank to speculate in the breadstuffs of the country. When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank. You tell me that if I take the deposits from the bank and annul its charter, I shall ruin ten thousand families. That may be true, gentlemen, but that is your sin! Should I let you go on, you will ruin fifty thousand families, and that would be my sin! You are a den of vipers and thieves." -- Andrew Jackson, President of the United States

"I killed the banks." - Epitaph inscribed upon Andrew Jacksons headstone.

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed." -- U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864 (letter to Col. William F. Elkins)

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws."-- Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild

"The few who understand the system, will either be so interested from it's profits or so dependant on it's favors, that there will be no opposition from that class." -- Rothschild Brothers of London, 1863

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation, and then by deflation, the banks and the corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their father's conquered."-- Thomas Jefferson,  President of the United States

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power (of money) should be taken away from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs." -- Thomas Jefferson,  President of the United States.

"Most Americans have no real understanding of the operation of the international money lenders. The accounts of the Federal Reserve System have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and manipulates the credit of the United States." -- Sen. Barry Goldwater

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce." -- James A. Garfield, President of the United States

"Every Congressman, every Senator knows precisely what causes inflation...but can't, [won't] support the drastic reforms to stop it [repeal of the Federal Reserve Act] because it could cost him his job." -- Robert A. Heinlein,

"It is well that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." -- Henry Ford

"We have, in this country, one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board. This evil institution has impoverished the people of the United States and has practically bankrupted our government. It has done this through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." -- Congressman Louis T. McFadden in 1932 (Rep. Pa)

"The Federal Reserve banks are one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever seen. There is not a man within the sound of my voice who does not know that this nation is run by the International bankers." -- Congressman Louis T. McFadden (Rep. Pa)

"Some [Most] people think the Federal Reserve Banks are the United States government's institutions. They are not government institutions. They are private credit monopolies which prey upon the people of the United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign swindlers." -- Congressional Record 12595-12603 -- Louis T. McFadden, Chairman of the Committee on Banking and Currency (12 years) June 10, 1932

"By this means government may secretly and unobserved, confiscate the wealth of the people, and not one man in a million will detect the theft." -- British Lord John Maynard Keynes (the father of 'Keynesian Economics' which our nation now endures) in his book "THE ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES OF THE PEACE" (1920).

"These 12 corporations together cover the whole country and monopolize and use for private gain every dollar of the public currency..." -- Mr. Crozier of Cincinnati, before Senate Banking and Currency Committee - 1913

"A great industrial nation is controlled by it's system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the world-- no longer a government of free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men." -- President Woodrow Wilson

"This [Federal Reserve Act] establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President [Wilson} signs this bill, the invisible government of the monetary power will be legalized....the worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking and currency bill." -- Charles A. Lindbergh, Sr. , 1913

"From now on, depressions will be scientifically created." -- Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh Sr. , 1913

"The financial system has been turned over to the Federal Reserve Board. That Board administers the finance system by authority of a purely profiteering group. The system is Private, conducted for the sole purpose of obtaining the greatest possible profits from the use of other people's money" -- Charles A. Lindbergh Sr., 1923

"So I know how unpopular it is to be seen as helping banks right now, especially when everyone is suffering in part from their bad decisions. I promise you – I get it." - Barak Obama, President of the United States, February 24th, 2009

"And the banks... hard to believe in a time when we're facing a banking crisis that many of the banks created... are still the most powerful lobby on Capitol Hill. And they frankly own the place." -  Sen. Dick Durbin (D.), April 2009

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Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

I'll chime in for what it is worth.

People seem to be dropping like flies here. I too am considering leaving the forums and using CM.com as a place to get great economic updates by way of Chris' blog and Martenson reports, and leaving the constant arguing to others who have more time than me. It is not a decision that I come by easily, because CM has been a big part of my life for over a year now, and I have learned so much and gotten myself prepared in that time, thus the screen name change to Ready a month or 2 ago. I truly am Ready now for whatever SHTF.

As my way of giving back, I offer this: as long as the discussion does not become personal attack, there should be no issue. Debate is healthy, and the topics should not be limited within reason. I do believe that there should be a strong presence by the Mods and a dictum from Chris that the minute a personal attack enters a thread, it gets locked to further posting for 24 hours, and a note from the Mod saying play nice or I delete the thread completely. And then follow through. It seems unfortunate, but for some reason us adults seem OK typing some things and behaving in ways we would likely not if we were having dinner with Chris and his family. This is the test that Chris has asked us to put on our words, and adjust our behavior to match that expectation. I feel strongly that he deserves the right to demand this on HIS site.

I want this issue resolved too Strabes. I have to admit, I do not know exactly how it changes my life, but I am beginning to believe that the 911 attacks were more co-ordinated than simply 2 planes flying into buildings. I don't know who to hold responsible, and even if I did, I don't think it would have any effect over my day to day actions. The posting here is what made me aware that there is something more than meets the eye, and I appreciate the knowledge even if it is not my typical cup of tea. I REALLY want to know who killed JFK too, but sadly it would have no real impact except to satisfy my curiosity. So I guess that puts me in a 3rd camp of wanting to discuss everything with respect, and make my own decisions about each topic on it's merits. I'm not ever going to believe in lizzard men, but too often that is what gets laid on folks who have legitimate thoughts and data, and it should stop post haste (unless you are really talking about lizzard men, then you get what you deserve! )

What I see happening here is difficult to watch. We are experiencing the exponential function on the readership here, and it seems to be acting like kindling for many of these disputes. As people dig in heels on both sides, voices get raised, and more enter the fray in support of their side. Seems to me the folks that want it shut down are doing themselves a dis-service by elevating the thread beyond what is ever possible without them in it.

Anyhow, I'm on the fence right now. Based on how this issue runs it's course and what changes are or are not made, you may not see much of me in the future. I know I am not alone, and not everyone releases a press statement (c1oudfire) or asserts the direction of leaving in a thread, many folks are just disappearing off the list. It seems to be the more moderate folks, and I really miss them and their influence. Some of the folks I have learned the most from and identify the best with are just plain gone, and I know why. Shame.

Rog

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Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

Strabes,

With regards to the standing military - I strongly object to a centralize federal military, federalized police forces and national banks.

The scope of their operations, too, exceeds reasonability in many cases; assuming responsibility for problems that have domestic or localized solutions available. That doesn't change the fact that there is no possible chance of peacefully destructuring these entities.

It also doesn't change the fact that the rest of the world has militarized right along with us.

We could discuss how tax code has restricted freedom as well.

All these things are important because we're entering a new age here.
The low hanging fruit has all been picked, the power is being consolidated and things are going to change drastically.

The lessons from our founding fathers may very well guide our way.
Who killed Kennedy won't have much to do with it.

Cheers!

Aaron

 

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Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

Great post strabes.  

I think the very notion of patriotism has been corrupted from what our founding fathers intended. Our founding fathers cautioned us repeatedly that we must be forever vigilant to maintain our freedom. Thomas Paine explained that "It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government."

They were very suspicious of any government, including the one they had created. Patrick Henry put things in their proper prospective "the Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government."

We are losing our freedom and financial security because we are allowing it to happen.  Our children and future generations will be shackled in debt and tyranny if the course is not altered.  How do we stop it?  First, we have to become aware of what is really happening  - and don't rely on the MSM or our public officials to tell you.  One skill I am trying to better develop is the ability to research and analyze our predicament on my own - I think this is an invaluable survival tool.     

strabes said:

it seems there are 2 dynamics happening on this site:  1) a group of people who desperately want to find a forum for discussing these supremely important issues because the "public forum" in the media doesn't address them at all but rather it focuses on Obama's dog and swine flu, and 2) a group of people who want to keep this site focused on sustainable community discussions.

I wrote something similar in the "subscribers" forum several days ago in response to c1oudfire's question..."Should Non-mainstream Inquiry be Quarantined in the "Controversial Topics" Forum?"  I think it is appropriate to paste some of it here:

I've noticed two conflicting philosophies that sometimes pop up in this forum.  One camp thinks we can't do anything to change the world and that we are best served preparing.  The other camp wants to know why and how we got in this mess as part of their preparation.  I hope you will find enough room for both perspectives to respectfully co-exist in the 3E tent.

One interesting thing is that many people think we (CM &CC advocates) are subscribing to crazy conspiracy theories when we talk about things like peak oil, a finite monetary system and preparing for the "massive change" we see coming.  

From our perspective, the CC tenets are more than theories. We've all done our own research with some healthy skepticism before accepting anything as personal knowledge.  The same diligence may be applied to other important "theories" to hopefully find nuggets and boulders of truth.  

strabes said:

Both groups are trying to find their way in this world.  Rather, than jumping on each other, Chris should make a definitive statement that, though group #1 is important and these are very legitimate issues to discuss, it's not the purpose of this site so he will not allow such discussion.  If Chris does not make this statement, then he's implicitly stating he's ok with group #1 discussing those topics and group #2 should not criticize them for focusing on things that don't matter.  

I agree that unless Chris objects to group 1; group 2 should allow group 1 the freedom to discuss what is important to them.  That's not to say that I object to challenges or counter arguments - in fact I encourage and welcome feedback as an opportunity to learn.  What I object to is seeing people bullied by some who want what they see as crazy "conspiracy theories" routed to the bowels of this forum.

Unless our good host wishes otherwise, I'm going to continue speaking my mind on the issues that I find important and in the forums I deem appropriate.  This website is a valuable resource and I've learned much from the great folks in this forum - I hope we can get over this bump.

Larry

PS - romat, thanks for the great quotes on money

joe2baba's picture
joe2baba
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Offline)
Joined: Jun 17 2008
Posts: 807
Re: History is our teacher. It's a pity some are such poor ...

rowmat

i dont know how long you have been on this site but you  are the fifth person who i have written to about the jefferson quote on inflation and deflation. it is a bogus quote..............more precisely ther is no evidence that jefferson ever said or wrote it.

as chris would like to point out we need to verify our facts.

when you include a quote like that you call into question all the other fine quotes.

unfortuantely this quote has gotten wide circulation on the web.

find the citation or delete it

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joe2baba
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Offline)
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Posts: 807
Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

strabes

i live in the woods clinging to my bhagavad gita and my neighbors guns, i dont live on a street. i decided a long time ago to not be an american.

the longer answer is right here on this forum. we are too far down the road my friend. if you take groups one and two on this site which is admittedly a cut above a good many internet sites in terms of intelligence and cannot bridge the gaps what possible hope is there for the rest of the populace which is so dumbed down they cant find ther you know whats with both hands.

check out the size of the federal government. we would have to dismantle 90% of it to get back to some semblance of what was originally created. we have become a nation of beggars. the people that voted for obama are the problem. they the american people want someone to take care of them. they want a king and we now have imperial presidencies

 

we have to face the facts the only way things will change in this country is by  revolution. and i am quite sure that the money masters have already planned for that contingency. no discussion of change on this site will include a revolution even tho we live in a country founded on a violent revolution madison jefferson and others put everything on the line. there is no discussion of even a non violent revoultion in the mould of gandhi. the only one espousing anything in that vein is some wacko permaculturalist from australia. the analysis on this site is excellent the research is awesome but as sam said what do we do?

everyone else here is content to become serfs bound to the land which is owned by the government and grow a few veggies.

i have said here many times we have two choices we can be either willing or unwilling serfs but serfs we will be none the less.

there was one other guy around at the beginning strabes ............hamilton and he has won

checkmate

just grow a few veggies buy lots of guns and ammo and go in for a tune up every now and again to be a dumbed down american..............it is a lot easier

Ready's picture
Ready
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 30 2008
Posts: 917
Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

Joe,

There is no talk of violent revolution on this site because Dr. Martenson correctly believes it is counterproductive to the mission of the site. You know this. Why not respect his wishes?

Rog

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joe2baba
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Offline)
Joined: Jun 17 2008
Posts: 807
Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

excusmo por favor amigo

please do not attribute words or sentiments to me which are  a figment of your own imagination  and psychological filters.

i clearly stated there will be no discussion of a revolution PERIOD. there have been many revolutions thru history agicultural, industrial, the discovery of how to control fire and my all time fav the invention of the wheel.

the good prof has stated we should deal in facts. the facts are exactly as i stated them we live in a country founded on a violent. revolution. this is  a discussion which takes place in school classrooms throughout this country at every grade level. it is in history and in our blood .

i find it interesting that you made no mention of my bringing up gandhi who i consider the second greatest figure of the 20th century.

do you think it just might take some revolutionary thinking and discussion to get rid of 90% of the federal gov.? how about changing the mentality of this nation of beggars? why dont you go to the out of the box thread and make a contribution.

point of fact imho opinion aside from the brilliant analysis this site offers the most glaring hole is the owner of this site offering nothing much in the way of creative ideas to actually do something about it. i go elsewhwere for those kinds of discussions

so in speaking of respect i would suggest you respect my posts and not cherry pick and misquote or otherwise distort what i had to say. you obviously missed the point. i have found leaving the site for periods to be quite refreshing so as you ruminated earlier maybe you should take a break.

in any event give up any idea of thinking you have me pegged.

i hope there is no misunderstanding what i just wrote but if there is feel free to back channel me. as this could get personal and i would want to respect DR. martensons site and keep it private

so glad you are ready

your amigo

joe

Ready's picture
Ready
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 30 2008
Posts: 917
Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...
joe2baba wrote:

we have to face the facts the only way things will change in this country is by  revolution. 

no discussion of change on this site will include a revolution even tho we live in a country founded on a violent revolution madison jefferson and others put everything on the line.

Your quotes, I didn't write them.

clever how you introduce violent revolution (again, refer to your quote if you don't believe me) by stating you think it is the only way for this country to change, but you won't talk about them.

 

joe2baba's picture
joe2baba
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Offline)
Joined: Jun 17 2008
Posts: 807
Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

good by ready i no longer have time for you

Ready's picture
Ready
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 30 2008
Posts: 917
Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

This is exactly the type of behavior that is ruining this site. I am being polite Joe. I am not attacking you. There is no need for you to attack me simply because we see things differently.

And no, I didn't flag your post, so clearly I am not alone in my desire to get rid of the attacks. Goes directly to the point of this thread.

I was contacted off list and told that this thread was doomed from the beginnning. Maybe my friend was right.

 

Farmer Brown's picture
Farmer Brown
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Offline)
Joined: Nov 23 2008
Posts: 1503
Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

 

I couldn't help it...

xkcd

Ready's picture
Ready
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 30 2008
Posts: 917
Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...

Funny.

Sums things up pretty well for most of us!

Best,

Rog

ccpetersmd's picture
ccpetersmd
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 12 2008
Posts: 799
Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...
Patrick Brown wrote:

 

I couldn't help it...

xkcd

Oh, isn't that so the truth!

Ready's picture
Ready
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 30 2008
Posts: 917
Re: do James Madison's warnings about freedom matter to our ...
strabes wrote:

 Rather, than jumping on each other, Chris should make a definitive statement that, though group #1 is important and these are very legitimate issues to discuss, it's not the purpose of this site so he will not allow such discussion.  If Chris does not make this statement, then he's implicitly stating he's ok with group #1 discussing those topics and group #2 should not criticize them for focusing on things that don't matter.

 

Strabes,

By Chris' silence, I would assume you have your answer.

As has been demnstrated in this thread, while it appears that topics will not be limited, neither will "jumping on each other".

I doubt this is what you were looking for, but good luck in your future posts. I hope the group can find a way to be self moderating.

Rog

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