The dismal future for law graduates

31 posts / 0 new
Last post
Subprime JD's picture
Subprime JD
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 17 2009
Posts: 562
The dismal future for law graduates

 

Recent law graduates are in a world of pain as they begin to realize that their degrees are not worth what they were told or taught they would be worth. Because of the constant media blitz, shows such as raising the bar, boston legal, and others, people believe that lawyers are a wealthy and prosperous bunch. Sadly, this is faar from the truth. Unless you went to a to 20 law school out of the 210 law schools, or unless you were top 10% of the rest of the law schools, you are in a deep hole. The other exception is if your family has their own firm which is successfull. However, if you fall in the "other" section which basically comprises the majority of law school graduates finding a job, and a decent paying job is very very difficult to do. Add in the seriously high debt service and it is near poverty for many of my peers.




OVERSUPPLY OF ATTORNEYS

Each and every year, law schools are pumping out over 45,000 grads. Here's a clip from Forbes:

Law schools have been lying about their alumni employment data for quite some time. While many of these schools claims that the average starting salary starts in 70-90k  range, this is far from the truth. Take a look at the job offers from craigslist and you will see entry level attorneys being offered 15-20 dollars per hour.

In a new paper, "Mamas Don't let Your Babies Grow Up to Be Lawyers" Vanderbilt University Professor Herbert Schlunk concludes that the shiny attraction of the letters JD behind a graduate's name may be worth less than commonly believed. Schlunk argues that undergraduate grades are a strong indicator of future earnings power and that the fact that high-achieving undergraduates are more likely to get a law degree has skewed earnings comparisons. When Schlunk compared law graduates to their undergraduate-degree-only academic peers, the results were bleak. Middle-of-the-pack students (when the costs of attending law school are all factored in) begin their law careers behind financially and are “unlikely ever to dig themselves out for that hole,” he concludes. Only “hot prospects” who go to the best law schools have made an “acceptable investment,'' he argues.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/12/21/mba-law-journalism-gre-gmat-personal-finance-grad-school-applications-up.html

I unfortunately fall into the "middle of the pack" group. That means I am competing viciously for those high paying 30-45k a year jobs out there. With a student loan payment of $1000 per month, im broke broke broke. Looks like me and millions of others wont be buying a home, car, or stocks for a loooong time.

Also consider that legal jobs are being outsourced to India:

Clients are pushing law firms like Jones Day and Kirkland & Ellis to send basic legal tasks to India, where lawyers tag documents and investigate takeover targets for as little as $20 an hour. The firms are part of a trend that will move about 50,000 U.S. legal jobs overseas by 2015, according to Forrester Research in Boston.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/21/business/worldbusiness/21iht-law.4.7199252.html

So even as more and more JD's are looking for work at home, these jobs are being outsourced for a fraction of the cost. These walking derivative graduate debt slaves are going to be in a world of pain.

REAL FUZZY NUMBERS: LAW SCHOOLS FUDGE ALUMNI EMPLOYMENT AND SALARY DATA

Its amazing how big of a role the fuzzy numbers plays in continuing demand for law school. Law schools publish that 90% of their grads find employment, and that they have great salaries. I call BS. The primary tool used to accomplish the law school scam is the bogus income-salary and employment statistics used to give a false picture of how well the law school grads do.

How many graduates are working in non-legal settings?  What are the salary ranges and distributions within legal and non-legal practice settings? Is there any evidence that some schools have better placement records as a result of curricular initiatives?  Remarkably, no one in legal education knows the answers to these questions. Schools should be required to submit a list of the employers and job titles for all of its graduates, and the Section should then code and compile these lists in a way that reveals the full range of outcomes, thus enabling meaningful school-to-school comparisons.  The lists themselves need not be published; the binning process would capture the useful information while also ensuring student anonymity.  There is a high probability that the current ABA coding system (e.g., "academia", "business") contains outcomes that make $120K in legal education look like a bad investment.  The Section should follow up with these graduates to better understand their circumstances, including the decision-making process that the graduates relied upon.

http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/legal_profession/2009/11/a-starting-point-for-law-school-outcome-measures.html

Bottom line: were to I have ever known about the reality that most lawyers face I would not have taken the gamble of going to law school. Thats what it is essentially, one big gamble. And the odds are against me. Biglaw wont consider me, and small law will pay 15-20 bucks an hr. You see, as a market participant I misread the market because the data I was relying on is PATENTLY FALSE. Except the secret has been kept hush hush by the guess again, MAINSTREAM MEDIA. There are many bloggers who cry bloody murder about the deception taking place amongnst law schools. The first thing I looked at before applying to my law school was "EMPLOYMENT DATA". I saw 95% employed after 9 months. Average salary: 70K starting. I said not bad. I could easily take the average, and took the chance that I could be above average. Now that I see the REAL MARKET WAGE for lawyers like me are in the low 30's to 40's a year, I would have become a plumber instead.

THE MARKET FOR THE MIDDLE OF THE PACK GROUP

Worcester law firm looking for an aggressive associate to handle collection cases, 1+ yrs experience, litigation exposure preferred.

25,000 a year? Say the associate works 50 hrs a week. 2 weeks unpaid vacation. 50 weeks X 50 hrs = 2500 hrs. 25,000/2500 hrs = 10 dollars an hour. Wow. $150,000 grand to go to law school and this is what you can earn. On a 150k student loan which cannot ever be discharged, the monthly payment is $1200 a month on a 25 yr plan. 25,000 a yr is 2083 a month. After taxes your broke with rent and student loan.

 

Attorney & File Clerk - State of Florida (Downtown W. Palm Beach )

Attorney
This position has a full benefit package with an annual salary of $15,080.00. The position has opened with the possibility to hire someone who may be looking for the benefits portion more than the salary. The State of Florida offers 100% paid health insurance for yourself and your immediate family, six weeks paid vacation per year, paid state holidays, paid sick leave, deferred compensation, tuition free college, Florida Retirement System plus more. Applicants must be a member of the Florida Bar.

http://miami.craigslist.org/pbc/lgl/1569020234.html

What a sick joke. 15k per year.

 

How about this offer:

Miller, Curtis & Weisbrod is hiring an attorney for our Dallas office, to work on nationwide pharmaceutical litigation. The lawyer will work on a variety of different dangerous drug cases around the country. The ideal candidate will have 5-15 years of plaintiffs experience in pharmaceutical and mass tort litigation, but other experience will be considered. Candidates need to have experience in taking and defending depositions, attending hearings and strong preference for trial experience.

Salary
USD 40,000.00/year

Wow! 15 yrs of experience gets you a whopping 40k a year!

 

Bear

 

G-Money's picture
G-Money
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Jan 16 2010
Posts: 46
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

Bear -

This confirms something I've been wondering about for quite awhile. I have decent number of friends and family members who have recently graduated, enrolled in, or are planning to enroll in law school. It seems that the reason that most of them are making this choice is simply due to lack of other options. I've literally heard people say that they are going to "ride out the recession in law school", thinking that somehow this will all have blown over by the time they graduate. I keep thinking that with all these applicants the standards for entrance must be at an all time high. But everyone seems to keep being accepted. Something is certainly amiss.

Best of luck to you.

Gabriel

Subprime JD's picture
Subprime JD
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 17 2009
Posts: 562
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

Bloggers have been screaming about this for years apparently but with the onset of the great depression part II more and more grads are beginning to notice. Its a law school bubble and has all the characteristics of a bubble. People keep enrolling and borrowing to get a law degree with no real hard look at the rapidly deteriorating economic fundamentals. I feel really bad for all the other grads like me that are struggling financially. I also feel bad for the established attorneys that are getting crushed by the flood of new applicants. Sure, we need lawyers in this country but 210 law schools is too much. This country needs 90-70 law schools and thats it. The fact that the American Bar Association allows the fudging of employment data to take place is a great crime. People are relying on the ABA and Law School data as most people presume that these are prestigious institutions. Of course, after the events of the last 2 years people should question all official data. This country has resorting to scamming everyone and anything it could scam, from subprime home borrowers to subprime grad school attendees, pension funds, social security recipients. The social fabric of this country is deteriorating rapidly. Im having serious thoughts of moving to Australia, at least there my JD will hold some value. Ive heard that US lawyers can transfer there after 1 yr of school and still get to work part time and get paid for it.

JAG's picture
JAG
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 26 2008
Posts: 2492
Re: The dismal future for ALL graduates

Its not just a law school bubble, there is serious academic "inflation" in all professional fields. 

When I went to Chiropractic college in 1990 tuition cost $3,800/year, now tuition is over $30,000/year!  New graduates make $30-40K/year if they can find a job.

Ph.D's flipping burgers is in our future, if its not a reality already. What a waste.

Subprime JD's picture
Subprime JD
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 17 2009
Posts: 562
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

Its one thing for realtors and the Mortgage Bankers Association to go around and pump housing data, its another for our educational institutions to pump out FALSE employment data. At least subprime borrowers can default on their loans. Student loan debt is with you forever and ever unless you get a job with the federal government and stay there for 10 yrs. Also, realtors are looking to make a quick buck. People in education should be held to a higher standard, but apparently this is no longer the case.

The word needs to get out that grad school is a joke. Unless your creme de la creme student or have super crazy connections, dont bother.

V's picture
V
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 14 2009
Posts: 849
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

I feel sorry for lawyers. I think they should all move to Australia.

V

Johnny Oxygen's picture
Johnny Oxygen
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 9 2009
Posts: 1443
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

Architects beat you to it BMT.

Experienced architects have been looking for any job they can find for 30 years. The average student leaving school with a masters in architect an expect a pay scale of around 38k - 41k a year. Even after 10 years of experience the pay doesn't go up that much. There is always a huge number of new students coming out school that are eager and willing to work for much less.

If I'd known this I would have spent my time and money on being a licensed electrician. After being through our 'higher education' system I'm a very big proponent of trade schools.

College is over priced, over valued, over hyped, and out dated.

nickbert's picture
nickbert
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Jan 14 2009
Posts: 1207
Re: The dismal future for law graduates
bearmarkettrader wrote:

The word needs to get out that grad school is a joke. Unless your creme de la creme student or have super crazy connections, dont bother.

I hate to say it, but I have to mostly agree with you on grad school.  Even employers aren't much of a help anymore.  I work for a pretty big company, and in 2006 (before the "recession") I wanted to know how much the company would help in paying for a Masters degree.  Turns out the amount they were willing to put forth for that degree amounted to barely 2 classes per year excluding books.  In a state school at resident tuition no less.  So if I didn't want to borrow MORE money, it'd take 5 years to finish ugh.  Now my company doesn't offer as generous educational benefits as some, but IMO it's a problem of inflated tuition and education costs more than anything else.  Jacking up tuition without cutting spending and leaving it up to the employers or states or scholarships to pay the difference for a lucky few students is a poor solution.  But sadly that's the current status quo in most universities.

One of the plusses to an engineering degree in my mind was that graduate degrees were generally optional unless you planned to teach.  But that's changing too... a lot of the job postings I see are specifically asking for a masters degree in addition to relevant experience.  It's really kinda silly to ask for such a thing unless the job is highly specialized, but with the majority of these job postings it seems to be more of an arbitrary benchmark and nothing that relevant experience can't cover.  But even I'm in a better situation than my wife who desires to be a doctor, and I cringe at what medical school could cost.  We're looking at our options and going overseas for her schooling is one we've considered heavily. 

As for law prospects, I'm thinking some of the better routes may be the somewhat unconventional or seldom explored ones.  Maybe joining a small business venture where law skills are used to complement some other business function, like a startup that needs in-house help to establish its scientific patents.   

- Nickbert

Lemonyellowschwin's picture
Lemonyellowschwin
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Apr 22 2008
Posts: 548
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

I'm an attorney.  I recently attended a function where I talked for a long time with the president of one of our area's larger law firms (about 200 lawyers).  Bottom line, he said:  "I would never encourage anyone to go to law school.  The job market is atrocious.  The worst I've ever seen.  And it's not going to get better for a long time if at all.  People who are graduating near the top of their class and taking jobs that usually attracted the new graduates from the middle and bottom of the class. If you're not near the top of your class, forgetaboutit."

earthwise's picture
earthwise
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 10 2009
Posts: 846
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

 

A while back I heard a Gerald Celente interview where he stated that parents who sent their kids to college to get degrees in business, finance, law and other such pursuits were wasting their money. As a trend forecaster, his opinion was that trades such as farming, carpentry and other traditionally blue collar crafts would be a more promising vocation in the economy to come. I think this is consistant with a point Dr. M made (which I now paraphrase because I couldn't find the article. Sorry.) a while back when he described the three layers of wealth, the first being farms, timberland, mines etc., the second being things like real estate and such that are built with and upon the first. Third, are paper assets, intangible commodities that are based on the first two. It seems to me that in these times the farther one gets from the ground the more unstable the economic strata.

BearmarketTrader, I think if you joyfully pursue another way of earning a living while still keeping your eye on the ball (law), you will eventually make a breakthrough. The exposure to people you meet by being actively engaged will open doors. Just don't be surprised if that breakthrough is the discovery of another pursuit more rewarding than your original goal. That's what happened to me.

Good luck!

 

Subprime JD's picture
Subprime JD
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 17 2009
Posts: 562
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

Thats exactly what ive been thinking, I know that the legal profession is going to canabalize itself. I know that many law schools will close in the future as well, including mine. Im thinking of what i could do in the future that will be stable and sustainable. Trying to tie in the 3 E's with my knowledge. We will see what happens.

Expect a blowoff top in law school admissions in the next few years. As the economy continues to worsen the chronically unemployed BA's will continue to apply to law school until they realize what a horrible decision they have made when they see how there are barely any jobs for them.

britinbe's picture
britinbe
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 28 2008
Posts: 381
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

I think the whole higher education thing has become a bubble. In the UK, they talk of a high skill economy but having recruited from that pool of talent, I can tell you that what is being churned out often lacks the necessary analytical skills, in short industry has to do the job of what University's should have instilled rather than building on the graduates education. Particularly, I am talking about the sciences here.

I just see it as being symptomatic of the problems as a whole, just delaying the obvious, previously, many of these people would have done some kind of vocational training, but alas these options no longer exist. Don't get me wrong, I am for higher education, but I think we in the western world have lost sight of what it is about, we've moved from (in the UK anyway IMHO) from a process of learning and understanding to force feeding facts down students throats in an elaborate con to make people feel that they are smarter than the previous generation and entitled to more. The trick as a recruiter/interviewer is to identify those that would have gone to university 20-30 years ago and come out with a degree. I can tell you, it isn't always a question of grades either.

It makes my blood boil when I see how people are being misled over the value of their degrees......... Again we have succumb to the usual excesses.

As a final thought, has anyone ever come across a poor plumber??

zenmornings's picture
zenmornings
Status: Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 19 2010
Posts: 4
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

[Ed. note: Comment removed by moderator.]

Romans12.2's picture
Romans12.2
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Jul 14 2009
Posts: 227
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

Come the revolution - there will still be a need for negotiations between the law and the public.

Attorneys get a bad rap...until they save your ***

I am a bail bondsman by trade, I've seen defendants weep with gratitude to their counsel.

BMT- be honorable in all you do, your profession will prevail IMHO.

 

 

Subprime JD's picture
Subprime JD
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 17 2009
Posts: 562
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

Romans:

The sad part is that im getting called for all types of ambulance chaser claims. I got a slip and fall that caused a shattered bone at a bar. Bar owner has no insurance but is clearly liable. I dont want to take these type of claims but the student loan keeps coming regardless of my $600 per month income. Obviously the owner has to pay something out but nothing outrageous. I believe in a fair balance. He should have kept the floor dry (apparently there was lots of water on the ground) but at the same time potential client should have been more careful where she walked. But i digress.

 

idoctor's picture
idoctor
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 4 2008
Posts: 1731
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

I would welcome less adds in the Yellow Pages LOL.....

V's picture
V
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 14 2009
Posts: 849
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

Have you considered therapy?

V

ao's picture
ao
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 4 2009
Posts: 2220
Re: The dismal future for law graduates
bearmarkettrader wrote:

Romans:

The sad part is that im getting called for all types of ambulance chaser claims. I got a slip and fall that caused a shattered bone at a bar. Bar owner has no insurance but is clearly liable. I dont want to take these type of claims but the student loan keeps coming regardless of my $600 per month income. Obviously the owner has to pay something out but nothing outrageous. I believe in a fair balance. He should have kept the floor dry (apparently there was lots of water on the ground) but at the same time potential client should have been more careful where she walked. But i digress.

Sorry BMT but I just have to comment on this.  Someone slips and falls and it's the bar owner's fault because the floor was wet?  In my mind, it's the individual's fault because they were unaware, clumsy, etc.  There's something called rain.  It gets everything wet.  If people fall on wet ground, who should they sue?  The wet leaves, the slippery mud, the slick rocks?  It's this type of nonsensical action that has caused disrespect of the legal profession ... always having to find someone else to blame when the individual themselves are the most at fault.

ashvinp's picture
ashvinp
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Jan 20 2010
Posts: 412
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

If you own a bar that makes money from customers coming in and buying your (usually) over-priced alcohol, maybe you should consider taking basic precautions (such as keeping your floor dry or at least temporary caution signs) to protect your customers. It's good business and it's good for the safety of people in our society. I'd hate to think of how many corners businesses would cut in the name of profit if the strict  "assumption of the risk" rule you are advocating was adopted in commercial situations.

Subprime JD's picture
Subprime JD
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 17 2009
Posts: 562
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

For the record:

I am a huuuge believer in personal responsibility. So AO, relax and stop hyperventilating. I was trying to make a point how these cases get thrown in the face of broke and super leveraged attorneys who put their principles aside and take the case. I havent take this case and probably wont. But consider the reality.

The medical system is broken beyond repair and thus, medical services have exploded through the roof. This young woman with the broken leg bone as $50,000.00 in medical bills. After the nasty fall she was taken to the emergency room and then the hospital took her for a even big ride. Add in the chiro, mri, therapy, return hospital visits and the girl is flat bankrupt.

Typically, in a personal injury case, the plaintiff recieves 3 times the medical bills. So, if the medical system was NOT broken the medical bills would be 5000-7000. 21k for a shattered bone isnt too much of a payout. However, because of the busted medical system the 50k in meds turns into a 150k claim. Add in the broken legal system where too many attorneys with too much debt take on ambulance chaser cases because they know that if they dont take it, someone else will.

And V, the next time you post a completely irrelevant comment on one of my threads im going to report you. On numerous occasions you have been a jerk and for no reason at all. Im trying to fill you guys in on my personal struggles, I constantly tell people personal stories and provide TONS of information in my lengthy posts. Stop being a hater and either contribute or get lost.

 

Peace

ao's picture
ao
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 4 2009
Posts: 2220
Re: The dismal future for law graduates
bearmarkettrader wrote:

So AO, relax and stop hyperventilating. I was trying to make a point how these cases get thrown in the face of broke and super leveraged attorneys who put their principles aside and take the case.

 

BMT,

Here's another reason for lack of respect of the legal profession ... overuse of hyperbole.  No one's hyperventilating.  I'm very calm ... are you? 

And ask yourself, if they so readily put their principles aside, do they truly have principles in the first case?

In an indirect way, your post(s) underscore the dire need for legal reform in this country.  When an average of $10K (factored in to the price of all our goods and services) goes from the pockets of every family in this country to support legal costs, something is drastically wrong with our system.

Johnny Oxygen's picture
Johnny Oxygen
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 9 2009
Posts: 1443
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

We just need to out law unsolicited wetness.

land2341's picture
land2341
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 20 2009
Posts: 402
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

I am one of the only college professors I know who is willing to tell students that college may be a waste of time and money.

They should pursue their degree if they can and pursue a trade as well,  learn plumbing.   There is little we can do to prepare them for a world that we will not recognize. It will change in one direction or another;  the question is if we can provide them with any skills that will be useful.  I advise them to learn something useful and learn to grow food, learn to preserve and can food.  Mostly they laugh at me.  I am considered eccentric at best, a loon at worst.  WOuld you have listened if your law school profs had told you it was a waste of time?

Subprime JD's picture
Subprime JD
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 17 2009
Posts: 562
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

Land2341:

Sadly, I figured out it was going to be a huuge waste of time by the middle of my second year (2007). Thankfully, my family paid for the first year and a half of my tuition so my student loans are low. The question is what do i do with myself 10 yrs from now when we will have another 450,000 jds scrambling around for diminishing jobs.

V's picture
V
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 14 2009
Posts: 849
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

BMT

For the record. That was a serious question. This is the second time you have posted a thread complaining about your personal situation. You are obviously are having a difficult time. I would SERIOUSLY suggest you get professional help. It hasn't gotten that bad yet and if you are having these issues now you will have an even more difficult time in the future. 

i was stumbling around the basement here and came across this 

http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/lost-job-lost-house-lost-anything/16268

You may want to explore some of the posts on this thread and get a little perspective. You can also get free counseling usually at local colleges and universities. I would also suggest that you get a trade that produces something of value, like welding, electrical, plumbing etc.. If things are that bad for attorneys then why continue to beat a dead horse? This would seem to be a sign of insanity.

As for your calling me a jerk and a hater I find that behavior worthy of being reported, " i'm gonna tell mom on you." You are obviously young and have a lot to learn about a lot of things.  I wish you well on your journey to mental and emotional healing.

V

earthwise's picture
earthwise
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 10 2009
Posts: 846
Re: The dismal future for law graduates
land2341 wrote:

I am one of the only college professors I know who is willing to tell students that college may be a waste of time and money.

 ......... I advise them to learn something useful and learn to grow food, learn to preserve and can food............  

That advice right there is probably worth a years tuition IMHO.

Ken C's picture
Ken C
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 13 2009
Posts: 753
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

Land2341:

 

I too am in education. I teach high school mathematics and I can say that the educational system is broken at this level also.

It seems that all levels of government want to shoe horn all students into a "one size fits all" education.

The latest travesty to come to my school district is the requirement that all students be put  into a curriculum to prepare them for entry to Univ of Calif. This means that all students must participate in the so called A-G entrance requirement for UC whether they plan on attending college or not. These college entrance courses often have little relevance to a student that would be better served by learning skills that could be used immediately after high school. These decisions have enormous impacts on student  motivation and behavior which in turn diminishes the opportunities for genuine college bound students. This is a complete misapplication of resources.

Much of this recent "higher education" push has been a consequence of the "No Child Left Behind" (NCLB) law that we were saddled with a few years ago. An example of some unintended consequences gone berserk is related to the state interpretation of this law. Even if a student is able to finish the minimum required math courses for high school graduation that student is put into higher level math classes because if he/she is not in a math class then the school suffers a penalty on the  NCLB school performance evaluation. I am sure that you can see that the student will be none too happy with this situation.

Years ago we had multiple avenues for secondary students that included vocational and technical training as well as college preparatory avenues. This seemed to work very well until the state and school districts were sued by a battalion of lawyers claiming that too many  minorities were being funneled into vocational education and not  into college prep courses. This process was labeled "tracking" and is now illegal. So we have all of our classes  made up of the complete range of students from very bad to very good. This does not work for the student that should be in vocational training or for the college bound student.

No Child Will Be Left Behind if No Child Gets Ahead.

The school in which I teach has about 90%  minority students but still no tracking is allowed. In other words we cannot separate those college bound students from the students that are not college bound. Sounds sort of ridiculous that we can say that 90% is "minority". Does it  not?

Personally, I do the best job that I can in preparing my students for an uncertain future. I encourage them to learn as much as they can about being self reliant but I really do think that public education is going to continue to decline.

In summary, the more I see the Federal, State and local government try to "fix" things the more that it gets fouled up.

 

Subprime JD's picture
Subprime JD
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 17 2009
Posts: 562
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

Tell the students to become skilled in the trades. Its the only hope.

G-Money's picture
G-Money
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Jan 16 2010
Posts: 46
Re: The dismal future for law graduates
V wrote:

BMT

For the record. That was a serious question. This is the second time you have posted a thread complaining about your personal situation. You are obviously are having a difficult time. I would SERIOUSLY suggest you get professional help. It hasn't gotten that bad yet and if you are having these issues now you will have an even more difficult time in the future. 

i was stumbling around the basement here and came across this 

http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/lost-job-lost-house-lost-anything/16268

You may want to explore some of the posts on this thread and get a little perspective. You can also get free counseling usually at local colleges and universities. I would also suggest that you get a trade that produces something of value, like welding, electrical, plumbing etc.. If things are that bad for attorneys then why continue to beat a dead horse? This would seem to be a sign of insanity.

As for your calling me a jerk and a hater I find that behavior worthy of being reported, " i'm gonna tell mom on you." You are obviously young and have a lot to learn about a lot of things.  I wish you well on your journey to mental and emotional healing.

V

V -

I think what Bear is feeling (the hopelessness, anger, and betrayal that come with the realization that much of what you've been told to believe has been a lie) is going to become THE predominant experience of young adults over the next few years.

If the answer to Bear's problems is truly professional counseling then I suggest that Bear enroll immediately in a two-year program for social work or psychological counseling. When government mandated, taxpayer subsidized "therapy" (along with compulsory administration of "mood stabilizing" drugs) for all out of work young adults becomes the law of the land, Bear will be guaranteed a cushy career counseling potential agitators that "accepting the situation" (and certainly not ACTION of any kind) is the healthiest way to deal with their feelings.

Johnny Oxygen's picture
Johnny Oxygen
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 9 2009
Posts: 1443
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

...the person who create this post it was a great human..thanks for shared this with us.

Yes BMT is a great human. Smile

Full Moon's picture
Full Moon
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 14 2008
Posts: 1258
Re: The dismal future for law graduates

 I was just wondering how many banks will need more  good lawyers ?   How many shysters ?   Maybe the future is not quite so bleak for you all .   They would be the ones who would have money stashed to pay you .

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Login or Register to post comments