Definitive Post-Oil Thread

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A. M.'s picture
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Definitive Post-Oil Thread

My original intent with this thread was to discuss certain Diesel options for a post-oil economy.
As all of us know, transportation is extremely valuable and integral to our economy, way of living and system of supply.

Upon reflection and listening to the Robert McFarlane Podcast, I decided that a more "open-ended" thread was needed to discuss various mediums of transportation in the Post-Peak economy/World.

Over the last few years, I've been eeking towards a Diesel rig - especially after being inspired by Ready's Biodiesel knowledge. 

That said, the process of finding the "ideal" vehicle has not been easy. 
I'd considered some of the following:
The Chevy K5 "CUCV" - the precursor to the HMMWV. This military Vehicle is relatively cheap, 6.2L Diesel and is mechanically simple:
http://www.vintagemilitarytrucks.com/cucv%20page.htm

Recently, the idea of this vehicle has appealed greatly - A Diesel-Electric Truck from India: 
http://www.leftlanenews.com/mahindra-appalachian-2010.html

In addition to these vehicles, it seems wise to standardize fuel for equipment and vehicles, so discourse about all things "post-oil" is fair game.

Generators, Tractors - whatever needs discussed - let's do it here.

So, any thoughts or personal experiences migrating from gas to Bio-fuels?

Cheers,

Aaron

 

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I drove a Toyota 1988 Hilux

I drove a Toyota 1988 Hilux on unrefined coconut oil that i pressed out of the nuts myself. :) I needed 2-3 nuts for 1 liter oil. It seemed the car had to get used to it the first hundred kilomters but after that it drove like new life was blown into the engine that already had almost run for 250.000 kilometers. Very smooth, quiet en clean.

It is still in everyday use by my cousin but because he lives in Bangkok he uses regular diesel. One problem with coconut oil would be low ambient temperature, it solidifies (waxing or jelling) when under 16 degrees, mixed with about 5% diesel or kerosene however should keep it fluid, pre heating is another solution. Once started waste heat can be used to warm up the fuel.

This particular car is one of those that relies on simple mechanics and almost no electronics, in my view one of the most important features a reliable car should have. As the diesel engine itself was invented to be run on different kinds of oils, if i remember correctly peanut oil was used it should be no prolem to run it on any other type of oil, although they still need to go through a process called transesterification making it dependant on methanol. Hello peak methanol. :) Coconut oil is as far as i know the only oil that can be used directly without modifications to the engine and fuel injectors.

A few older (pre 1990) mercedes models should run good on these oils too.

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My non-turbo 300D manual

My non-turbo 300D manual trans gets 29+mpgs on sunflower oil(thru esterification) and 33+ on dino oil.

 

robie

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Supply and demand figures don't look good

Interesting thread.  But I think it's important to keep in mind -- all of us -- what biodiesel is.  Biodiesel is "vegetable oil or animal fat based diesel fuel...Biodiesel is typically made by chemically reacting lipids (e.g., vegetable oil, animal fat (tallow)) with an alcohol. Biodiesel is meant to be used in standard diesel engines and is thus distinct from the vegetable and waste oils used to fuel converted diesel engines." (Wiki)

Today if you're one of the individuals who can get vegetable oil for free from the local McDonald's, or grab some coconut oil from a nearby palm tree, then you're doing OK if you can tolerate the perpetual smell of french fries in your car. (This is not biodiesel, but my point is about suppy). 

But just as soon as price volatility in petroleum becomes unbearable, you're going to have 325 million people trying to convert from gasoline to biodiesel.

If we wanted to have enough biosiesel to fuel any significant portion of the cars currently on the road, we would have to devote entire crops to the production of fuel, causing millions of people to starve.  The price of agricultural commodities will not cooperate with this activity.  Especially since all current large scale sources of biodiesel are hopelessly dependent upon a petroleum agriculture support system.

Already in the United States we devote about 36% of our maize crop to the production of ethanol (again not biodiesel).  Regardless of the energy efficiency of this conversion, it yields just enough liquid for 1/10th of the fuel in passenger cars.  Considering that world grain stocks per capita and arable land per capita are very tight, it is difficult to see how the amount of arable land devoted to food production can be significantly increased to offset demand for vegetable-based diesel fuel.

Furthermore, we forget that the entire production system for automobiles, from the metallurgy to the tires, to the alternaters, is completely dependent upon the most longest, most sophisticated and utterly petroleum-driven supply chains in the world.  As oil becomes scare, so will radiator hoses, bushings, bearings, springs, copper coils, and polyurethane.

The series of steps that converts raw materials into brake fluid, tires, transmission differentials, and windshield glue is completely oil-dependent, and will not run on peanut oil, even if the car itself might.

Motorcar transportation as we know it is a twilight activity.  As the price of petroleum increases, it will become more economically inefficient regardless of what we put in the fuel tank.  If you power your car on biodiesel derived from vegetable oil, it may not be significantly less expensive than if you tried to use gasoline directly, since every input into vegetable oil or animal fat is based on a petroleum supply chain.

So what is my personal theory about how to 'play" the oil curve?  My personal opinion (critique invited) is that oil shortage should be looked at like an investment play.  As oil runs short, we know the masses will turn in desperation to any alt. fuel available.  And these are hopelessly inadequate to meet demand.  Those who invest significant sums in biodiesel reliance will inevitably lose as 325 million people try to switch over to alternative fuels. 

My guess is that the winners will be the people who invest early in walkable communities, New England-style socially stable communities, in places where food is grown close to where people live, people who learn how to be good neighbors, and and invest in skills that will be useful to those who live around them, because that type of living situation is the ultimate end state of this series of events.

Now, what about transportation?  My theory is this: the winners will be those who have the most common, mass-produced, beat up Ford subcompact (or possibly a gas/electric car if these become common) simply because replacement parts will be available at reasonable prices.  Automobiles are a product so saturated with petroleum (just as biodiesel is saturated with petroleum) that their cost of operation will inevitably rise in line with the cost of oil.  But in a world of $200bbl oil, a replacement alternator for a relatively uncommon/high- tech vehicle might not be available at any price.

The next generation of transportation after that?  My feeling is that the next generation of transportation will be (as James H. Kunstler suggests) a return to more energy-efficient forms of transit, such as railroads and trolleys.  And a lot more walking.

I'm not trying to throw a wet blanket on the alt. fuels discussion, because it's a good discussion.  Also, this isn't a comment on the specific types of vehicles suggested by Aaron above, since I don't know how common replacement parts are.  I'm only trying to make a pitch for readjusted expectations about biodiesel supply, and a plea to avoid hyper-technical machines, since the types of complicated supply chains necessary to maintain them may not be reliably available.  These points are probably all old-hat to veteran users, but these facts are so often lost in normal public discussion.

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I imagine

I agree with jrf29. It will be hard for the traditional liquid fuel automobile to be anyones primary mode of transportation.

I think liquid fuels will be reserved for agriculture and earth moving. Standard commuting, if there is any, will almost have to be done via some kind of electric mass transit.

Personal vehicles will have to be built lightweight, with natural composites, and probably for work or hauling only. It's hard to foresee anyone plowing roads during the winter, building roads with asphalt, not to mention the maintenance of all the commuter only bridges in a post- peak oil world.

I try and imagine the world without liquid fuels. It's really hard. There are going to be a lot of angry people without their atv's, suv's, snowmobiles, and joy rides in their own personal vehicle.

It will probably lead to the death of a lot of things. Driveways, drive-in's, drive-thru's, large lawns, etc..

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"The Definitive Post-Oil

"The Definitive Post-Oil Thread" .... LOL. It should be called "The Definitive 'Back-to-the-1750's Style Living' Thread"

Good comment by jrf29....spoken just like Kunstler.

Scale, as with everything in a 7 billion human population, is the problem.

Stated another way, the scale required to satisfy our oil needs with bio-fuel would require us to use over 14 times our total land production of corn:

"Unites States will use 20% of its corn to produce 5 billion gallons of ethanol which will substitute 1% of oil use. If 100% of corn from this country was used, only 7% of the total oil would be substituted." --  

Biofuels 

 

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Suppose for a second some

Suppose for a second some people are able to produce their own fuel from thir own stock.

Might that give a perspective that is less sarcastic and more proactive?

Eventually, we will need sustainable options. What do we have now that'snot already obsolete?

cheers,

Aaron

 

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EROI on individual citizen's production of liquid fuel
Aaron Moyer wrote:

Suppose for a second some people are able to produce their own fuel from thir own stock.

Might that give a perspective that is less sarcastic and more proactive?

Eventually, we will need sustainable options. What do we have now that'snot already obsolete?

cheers,

Aaron

That did come of as rather sarcastic. The work involved to produce your own fuel would seem to be rather time-consuming and energy-intensive on a small scale. How much energy would an individual have to exert in order to satisfy their liquid fuel needs? Something tells me the answer is not good. Anyone, please provide info on that question.

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What would the world look like if oil was so scarce?
Aaron Moyer wrote:

Suppose for a second some people are able to produce their own fuel from thir own stock.

That is an interesting codicil.  Suppose we don't want to fuel America on biodiesel, but just our own vehicle, on biodiesel we make ourselves?

Well, in order to answer this question intelligently, I propose that it is necessary to first think about the following:

1).  What overall conditions are likely to prevail in the world at a time when wringing biodiesel out of your own crops is the best possible way of getting liquid fuel?

2).  Are motor vehicles likely to be the best way of using energy in such circumstances?

3).  When are there such conditions likely to arrive given current depletion rates?

These are three very important questions, I think.  Take my opinions for what they're worth.

WHAT CONDITIONS ARE LIKELY TO PREVAIL AT A TIME WHEN WRINGING BIODIESEL OUT OF YOUR OWN CROPS IS THE BEST WAY OF OBTAINING LIQUID FUELS?

Here I'll harp on my previous point a little:  "As oil becomes scare, so will radiator hoses, bushings, bearings, springs, copper coils, and polyurethane.

The series of steps that converts raw materials into brake fluid, tires, transmission differentials, and windshield glue is completely oil-dependent.  It relies on the longest, most sophisticated supply chains in the world and will not run on peanut oil, even if the car itself might."

So in a world where oil has become that scarce, you might be able to run your truck on your own biodiesel . . . until the crankshaft position sensor breaks. 

Then you can push it.

ARE MOTOR VEHICLES LIKELY TO BE THE BEST WAY OF TRANSFERING ENERGY IN SUCH CIRCUMSTANCES?

This is a judgment call.  I would be inclined to think "no."  Rather than fueling an old truck on special occasions with biodiesel that I distill myself, I'd rather have a horse--or better--a donkey, mule, or ox.

A mule will help me grow the crops.  A mule is self-fueling, self-repairing, it makes fertilizer, has a sense of personality, and automatically produces little copies of itself from time to time.  As an added bonus if you fall asleep while driving, it remembers the way home.  Plus, in that world, the condition of the roads would be such that you wouldn't be travelling faster than 15mph. in any case.

My point is that motor vehicles are very special-purpose machines.  In a world where gasoline has become so scarce, I'd want a general-purpose mule before I wanted a pickup truck.  A pickup truck is good only for carrying heavy loads on hard fields.  For transportation you need a scooter.  For hauling or farming in loose dirt you need a tractor.  And all of these machines need spare parts.  One mule can perform all of these functions.

WHEN ARE SUCH CONDITIONS LIKELY TO ARRIVE GIVEN CURRENT DEPLETION RATES?

Here's the good news: not in either of our lifetimes, based on what I have heard from people smarter than us (e.g, Richard Heinberg).

As Chris points out in the Crash Course, the first principle of peak oil is that peak oil does not equal "running out of oil."  There will always be oil...for a price.  And there will always be oil for special occasions, at least during our lifetimes.  If you want to save up for a few months to buy enough gas to visit your uncle Bob on Christmas, you'll still be able to do it, in all probability with much less effort than it would take to make your own biodiesel.

What is in danger of collapsing is the whole economy that relies on 80-mile daily commutes between home and work, and 2000-mile journeys from farm to table.  It will be a difficult transition to be sure.  But neither you nor I will ever have to live in the world without any oil at all.  And if we did, I'd take the mule over the complex machine.

But when we're both 60 years old, my guess is that the best way to get from place to place will probably still be by gasoline-powered scooter (or railroad, as our forefathers did).  But we won't be sitting in cublicles in air conditioned offices eating refrigerated food from 2000 miles away, with our Hummers parked in the 3-story parking garage off of the interstate highway.

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Personally, I'd like a mule.

Personally, I'd like a mule. They're smart--they will not work themselves to death like a horse, for example--last longer than horses, and are less fragile than horses, too. But there are two horse-breeding farms less than a mile from my home, so horses may be all that's available.

What I have is a couple of leg-powered bicycles for the family, and the fact that I moved seven miles from a sustainably small population center on the edge of a rural community. It's not how you get "there" so much as it's how far "there" is.

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mule musings
jrf29 wrote:

A mule will help me grow the crops.  A mule is self-fueling, self-repairing, it makes fertilizer, has a sense of personality, and automatically produces little copies of itself from time to time.  As an added bonus if you fall asleep while driving, it remembers the way home.  Plus, in that world, the condition of the roads would be such that you wouldn't be travelling faster than 15mph. in any case.

Uh, sorry but generally no.  Remember, they're hybrids and usually infertile.  And they do take some maintenance.  But I agree, they're a decent choice.

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Re: mule musings
ao wrote:

Uh, sorry but generally no.  Remember, they're hybrids and usually infertile.

Touché . . . I couldn't remember that was a mule or a donkey.  You can tell I'm really banking on that motor scooter!

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Imagine this.
Rihter wrote:

I try and imagine the world without liquid fuels. It's really hard. There are going to be a lot of angry people without their atv's, suv's, snowmobiles, and joy rides in their own personal vehicle.

Not to mention a whole lot of pissed-off NASCAR fans.

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Imagine this
earthwise wrote:
Rihter wrote:

I try and imagine the world without liquid fuels. It's really hard. There are going to be a lot of angry people without their atv's, suv's, snowmobiles, and joy rides in their own personal vehicle.

Not to mention a whole lot of pissed-off NASCAR fans.

We can probably push peak oil out for at least a decade if we just scrap NASCAR now.

~ s ... ducking

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Alright, if I do have to

Alright, if I do have to finally park my '93 Geo Metro- did I mention it gets 50mpg? :^)- I want a rig like the one the old African guy drove in "The Gods Must Be Crazy".   Anybody got plans??  Aloha, Steve.

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Re: Suppose for a second some
Aaron Moyer wrote:

Suppose for a second some people are able to produce their own fuel from thir own stock.

Yes, me, driving on wood, grown on my own lot. It showed me the hard way that people like Heinberg and Kunstler are right. Trying to keep personal transportation going by biofuels is a desperate move. Not a long term solution. It cannot be scaled up, the basic car itself wears out to a point where no parts are available and it creates a situation with haves and have-nots. All attempts are temporary and personal solutions.

Here, in lowlands Western Europe, we are lucky to have our ancient structure of small cities surrounded by agricultural land. We do not need much transportation. I think that is the direction to go: avoid excessive transportation and move to a place with a mild climate, where all you need for a simple life is available. Forget present standards of living.

In the end, all our future problems boil down to consumption and population, both grown beyond sustainability. Most post peak books I've read can be summarized by that one sentence.

Regards, DJ

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15 acres, is what i came up

15 acres, is what i came up with several years ago. Our farm,465acres would require 15acres of BOSS to [produce the fuel to make her go. This fuel would bee for several tractors, 4 hours of el;ectricity/day and home heat. The cake residue would be animal feed.

not efficient, not worth it. gotta milk its early can't type with cold hands robie 

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Distance from source is key
safewrite wrote:

Personally, I'd like a mule...

What I have is a couple of leg-powered bicycles for the family, and the fact that I moved seven miles from a sustainably small population center on the edge of a rural community. It's not how you get "there" so much as how far "there" is.

I vote for the mule/donkey/oxen option too. As noted above, current transportation patterns are flat impossible post-peak. And the spare parts issue is real.

But, disregarding the parts issue, check this out: http://www.solarcarandtractor.com/Home.html

Be Well,

FJ

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Solarcarandtractor.com

I had an opportunity to speak with Mr. Howe on the phone last November. His son has a car that runs 100% off solar, and has enough battery power to run a concert stage for a significant period of time.

If the goal is to haul, move earth, or travel a short distance, I can see Mr. Howe's electric option being viable. However, Marcin at http://openfarmtech.org/ is proving that you can recycle steel, and extract aluminum locally and small scale. His techniques need some refining, but there getting close.

Liquid fuels may be going away when it comes to millions of personal vehicles, but the idea of a family hauler, or a scooter to go to "town", or out to the "farm", is plausible.

 

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Mules

Safewrite

I second your comment about mules - great animals and always ready to do the job. A friend of ours has one over 40 years old and still able to work 

Jim

 

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Aaron, I must be daft. For

Aaron, I must be daft.

For the last 2 years I haven't paid for fuel. Or electricity. Or water. Or a significant portion of my food. I think you get the picture.

At least I have saved enough money to go buy a mule  when (if) it becomes necessary.

 

This always seems to happen on these types of threads. Many people tend to jump right from today to Mad Max in terms of what is going to happen with oil in the future. Look back at some old thread here or elsewhere, and you will see what I mean. If I had followed their logic and advice, I'd be much poorer today.

No one can tell what the future will bring and when. Having the skills to fend for yourself is a cornerstone of this site. Alternative energy sources is just one part of a whole package.

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Calculations
robie robinson wrote:

15 acres, is what i came up with several years ago. Our farm,465acres would require 15acres of BOSS to [produce the fuel to make her go. This fuel would bee for several tractors, 4 hours of el;ectricity/day and home heat. The cake residue would be animal feed.

not efficient,not worth it,gotta milk its early can't type with cold hands robie 

That's interesting. How did you calculate to get the 15 acres?

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Xray mike, Wasn't too

Xray mike,

Wasn't too difficult. A pessimistic yield for black oil sunflowers/acre in southcentral VA. The yield from an 5ton screw press(didn't figure in a heated press at the time so it would be a better yield). Our avrage anual consumtion i took a pessimistic approach on that as well,for ag diesel.

robie

ps.  BOSS was chosen for its yield and the fatty acid profile was suitable for human consumption as well. In the end, we're mostly graziers and have whittled our row crop acreage to less than 100 acres. was bit by the Allen Nation(editor of The Stockmans Grassfarmer) bug of grass finishing beeves. Grass truly is the "forgiveness of nature",and opening gates to move ruminants will be more sustainable(for myself in old age) and "Big Mama",planet earth. 

 

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Ready, You've hit on the key

Ready,

You've hit on the key tone that I'm driving at. 

General,

Obviously, it's cool to speculate on what happen to our great grand-children, but I'm more concerned about the interim - where we all still live - than the "end" result.

Also, I'm seeing a lot of intellectual orthodoxy here - ironically from many of the same folks who preach steering clear of the mainstream.

Some diesel engines will run on nearly anything. Shine, Kerosene, BD - and I'm sure a lot of things I don't know of. 
Let's talk more about that.
Hard fact - Mobility is a huge advantage in any scenario, and should be considered as a part of the overall survival package as Ready already said.

I'd like to hear more on how to make it practical and possible, because quite frankly, it seems foolish to commit ourselves to a life of 1730's.
Forget reflective equilibrium setting us back 300 years - it'll be 120 at the most.
We've overproduced several generations worth of equipment for automobiles (not to mention most other gizmos) and it'd be crazy not to think of scavenging and technical improvisation as a viable approach.

Infrastructure is still in place - why assume it won't ultimately be used as those with an extra dose of ingenuity "find a way"? 

Anyone who knows Ready knows exactly what I'm talkin' about :D

Cheers,

Aaron 

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Redefining Agriculture

Another issue is we are stuck defining agriculture a-culturally.

Don't get me wrong - there is nothing wrong with lots of open ground with lots of crops - but there are other ways of doing things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KMkmgolAj6o

If we apply the same limberness of mind to transportation, I think we can achieve something similar to what we can with alternative energies.
It's not going to allow us to live like we do now, at our present rates of consumption, but it will preclude us from having to ride mules.
Cause keeping draft animals is about as unrealistic for most people as stilling BD after oil.

Cheers,

Aaron 

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yes, I can burn it

Aaron,

Some things have changed since you stopped by my farm. For one, I have a different truck (more tolerant of multiple fuels) and a system called the VegiStroke that allows me to burn just about anything in my truck from Petrolem diesel to straight veggi oil to waste veggi oil to chicken schidtt (just kidding). But seriously, if Mad Max happened tomorow, I could go around to all the gassers, relieve them of their engine oil and transmission fluid, and burn it like it was diesel. Well, after I ran out of everything else, which would take a very long time...

The ability to be flexible is key, don't you think? People with options and open minds will fare the best in most futures I can imagine.

Cheers,

R

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I knew there was a downside

I knew there was a downside to hybrids.

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post peak roads

it has always been a very interesting bit of trivia that the first paved US highway was done due to the lobbying of the League of American Wheelmen,  an early and still existing association of bicyclists. 

Then later when the auto became more prevalent,  'wars' between horse lovers and car lovers over plowing and clearing frozen roads in winter were common in rural northern climes.  It's much easier to convert a wagon to a sled than it is to clear a road.

It makes you wonder what our interstate system will look like after 5 years of low to no road taxes.  Nature has a way of taking over very quickly.

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Define interim please
Aaron Moyer wrote:

Ready,

You've hit on the key tone that I'm driving at. 

General,

Obviously, it's cool to speculate on what happen to our great grand-children, but I'm more concerned about the interim - where we all still live - than the "end" result.

Also, I'm seeing a lot of intellectual orthodoxy here - ironically from many of the same folks who preach steering clear of the mainstream.

Some diesel engines will run on nearly anything. Shine, Kerosene, BD - and I'm sure a lot of things I don't know of. 
Let's talk more about that.
Hard fact - Mobility is a huge advantage in any scenario, and should be considered as a part of the overall survival package as Ready already said.

I'd like to hear more on how to make it practical and possible, because quite frankly, it seems foolish to commit ourselves to a life of 1730's.
Forget reflective equilibrium setting us back 300 years - it'll be 120 at the most.
We've overproduced several generations worth of equipment for automobiles (not to mention most other gizmos) and it'd be crazy not to think of scavenging and technical improvisation as a viable approach.

Infrastructure is still in place - why assume it won't ultimately be used as those with an extra dose of ingenuity "find a way"

Anyone who knows Ready knows exactly what I'm talkin' about :D

Cheers,

Aaron 

Aaron and Ready -

I think I'm missing the point of the thread. It would help me if you put a number on the period of time you consider interim. 5 years, 10, 20?

Are we brainstorming on hobbyist ideas for personal vehicles, or are we trying to paint a picture of a post-oil world where oil products aren't being manufactured or produced on any affordable mainstream scale?

I don't think John Howe's Solar Car is "Mad Max" in any way. He scavenged parts of existing vehicles and made them work without liquid fuels.

Marcin Jabukowski at Openfarmtech.org built a tractor out of scavenged parts and open sourced the design.

In a post-oil world I have a hard time imagining how roads will be maintained in any large scale fashion. Or how will replacement tires be manufactured? Then the economic domino effect happens. If those thing aren't common, then ingenuity comes into play. How do we make it work if the traditional methods aren't available.

I think there will be balance of expensive gasoline, limited bio-diesel, natural gas, and electric battery powered vehicles, and yes the the ox driven cart will make a comeback. I don't think there will be highways  full of commuter vehicles even 10 years from now.

Is this in line with the theme of the thread?

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tracking post

tracking post

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timeframe.. oh my
Rihter wrote:

Aaron and Ready -

Are we brainstorming on hobbyist ideas for personal vehicles, or are we trying to paint a picture of a post-oil world where oil products aren't being manufactured or produced on any affordable mainstream scale?

Not to speak for Aaron, but I personally don't have a crystal ball. Many of the timeframes I put on a potential collapse can only be looked at with a chuckle since I was soooo very wrong. One quick example - I was worried at the end of 2009 about extending my customers a 30 day credit line on invoices because I was waiting for some kind of banking holiday or other economic calamity to prevent payment. I underestimated the power of the Fed to influence markets and the economy. Now I don't try to expect anything, rather plan for everything. Impossible for sure, so the best you can do is sew flexibility into your life.

The answer to your question above, at least for me, is yes and yes. I would also add that I am planning for an extended period of pain where gas is affordable, but at the expense of other things. Say $4 - $6 range for a year.  I am also planning for the repeat of 2008, where the price of oil goes very high, only to hurt the economy and drop back down to $30bbl.

For just about any scenario you can imagine, energy independence (at least some energy independence) cannot be viewed as a bad thing, at least in my mind.

Here's the challenge - provide any scenario (from Ghawar 2 is discovered in Kansas to a repeat of the '70s oil shock) in which it does not make sense to try and provide for yourself outside the normal delivery channels, and I'll debate that and perhaps even learn something valuable. To me, the rehearsed, canned answer of biofuels make no sense is not correct in my case, and I would say that is true in many other folks cases as well.

I will further state that I have not arrived at this standpoint easily or without some flip flops. The proof is in the pudding, actually doing it. People like Robie get it because he sees it with his own, well cared for eyes.

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