I was wondering what is the general consensus on the security of a large (28 - 45 gun size) consummer grade gun safes. They usually cost from $800 - $1500 and weigh in at 700 - 800 lbs. I realize that unless they are bolted to the floor, they can just be picked up and moved but at over 800 lbs, that can't be done very quickly or discreetly.
It would seem the obvious weakness in these would be the locks. Some have traditional tumbler locks but most of them are electronic and only require something like a 9V battery to operate. Are these locks easy to get around or are they fairly secure? Is there anything stoping someone from getting a spare electronic lock with a known password and using that to get in or are some of the electronics located on the inside of the safe? Any ideas if these locks are susceptible to EMP?
Thanks, I was wondering if the game aspect might crowd out correct tactics. The guy I talked to pretty much agreed with your observations, but said he preferred to not worry about time and just work on accuracy. At least in the beginning, that's how I'll take it.
I came across this video from a guy on the totalprotectioninteractive.com forum
I agree with the idea of going slow and focusing on accuracy. The IDPA guys told me "you can't go fast enough to make up for missing".
I also try to do things in the tactically correct manner rather than trying to go fast. I look at it as an opportunity to practice my tactics with some dynamic movement rather than as a competition. I suppose that makes a good excuse for getting my butt smoked :-)
One thing that I noticed is that a lot of the shooting is done from behind cover, which means you are leaning out an sort of tilted. This is different enough from my normal range shooting that it seems to affect me. I keep saying that I will set up an extra target stand at my normal range and practice shooting that way but I don't do it anywhere near enough.
You can probably find video on you tube of the IDPA classifier test as well if you are interested. I think they have the IDPA rule book on the IDPA web site as well.
The external part of the electronic lock is only the keypad. The actual lock part is inside the door. I had the same thought about this and asked a locksmith.
The safes that you buy from most places are what is called a "residential security container" in the safe industry rating system. They probably will hold off a determined thief past the exit time limit if you have a good alarm system combined with the safe.
On the consumer level safes, it seems that the various manufacturers like Liberty make different quality levels for certain stores the same as the tool and appliance makers do. I don't know for sure but I think a Liberty from Lowe's or Cabelas may not be as good as one from a dedicated Liberty dealer.
The electronic locks are susceptible to an EMP that is caused by a nuclear device or EMP weapon. They are probably not susceptible to an EMP caused by a solar event. Knowing what I do now, I would get a safe with a good combination lock rather than an electronic one.
You definitely should bolt the safe securely to the floor or floor joists. The thiefs will use the same tools that the moving guys used to bring the safe in with to take it out. One other thing, do not leave room between the safe and the wall for them to put a jack in. They use the jack to pry the safe off the mounting bolts.
There are companies that make what is actually called a "safe" in the rating system. These are expensive but supposedly hold out much longer than the residential security containers.
I have no personal experience with this company, but they have some interesting discussion on what to look for in a good safe and how the cheap ones are cracked open. It seems that they can basically chisel their way through the thin steel on the cheap safes with a punch and a hammer.
Got myself itching for a Brown safe again and did some reading and research. Sniper Hide Forum had a thread with some guys that have bought from them and the seemed satisfied.
I came across another article on what features to look for.
I was wondering what is the general consensus on the security of a large (28 - 45 gun size) consummer grade gun safes. They usually cost from $800 - $1500 and weigh in at 700 - 800 lbs.
I have to wonder if they are even worth buying. Check out this video and the others down the right side. Hiding them in multiple places might be more effective. You probably wouldn't lose them all that way.
Stay with the one below through the opening. It is worth the wait.
Simply mount your "safe" where you want it and build a 4", rebar reinforced, concrete filled room around it extending a few inches beyond the front and hugged up to the sides close enough that a person can't get to the side. My last one was about ten inches on one side and zero on the other. A standard exterior door with a deadbolt on the front. It added about $200 to the cost of the safe and a couple of days of my time. The ceiling was several layers of drywall and luan glued together and a piece of iron angle went above the door opening. This adds fire protection and an added PITA to common thiefs. Also, just beside that room I have a small Stack-On safe that is easy to break into, bolted down and filled with a bit of costume jewelry, some silver coins, and a couple of cheap long guns and a pistol with the firing pins removed. If a pro wants your safe contents, he will obtain them. The casual thief will have wasted his time getting into the cheap safe and then maybe the door to the room, but with no access to the sides or with a prybar, the main RSC(safe) should remain...safe.
..."you gettin' training for that?"
..."then why'd you get it?"
That is probably the most useful bit of advice I've run across when it comes to firearms bought for self defense.
I picked one of these up and am very pleased with my purchase. Less than $350 OTD gets a very compact, very accurate semi auto 22 rifle in a neat carry bag. I highly recommend this gun.
Rifle time :)
Looking for a Sport Utility Rifle.
Co-Worker of a friend is really pushing hard for a PTR91. I'm leaning towards the AR15.
Not a hunter, just interested in some reasonable range target shooting.
What say the PP experts?
Ohhhh boy. Well, this is one of those topics that starts becoming contentious because there is a lot of marketing that surrounds all these products. The most important thing to remember, in my opinion, is the criteria:
5. Intended use
I used to put "Ergonomics" on there, but now... I can't stand hearing that word. Mainly, because it's not a metric we can use collectively - it's entirely subjective. If you devote time to learning how to keep your rifle running, it will 'become' ergonomic. That said, there are some rifles that work with you, and some... some work against you. The HK G3/91/CETME style rifles, in my opinion, works against the user harder than any other modern military autoloader.
Ergonomics, to a certain degree, is a matter of familiarity.
Heckler and Koch's engineers threw convention out the window with the G3/HK91, and did a few things that make it so ridiculously nuanced, that in my opinion it's not worth owning.
First and foremost, this is my opinion. I've never taken the G3 to war, and I never will. Having spoken with folks who have, here's my conclusion:
1. The Roller-Locker system is reliable, but damage to the receiver can impede the function and cycling of the weapon. There used to be speculation that the "same" type of damage would decomission any weapon, but that's been proven false in numerous IED attacks that have damaged, but not destroyed various M4s and AKMs.
2. If your receiver is struck and damaged to the point where it is creating malfunctions, you need an armorer to fix it. Again, problems with the AR are much easier to fix - switching the upper receiver takes seconds. The AK - if you can break it, I'll really be interested in how you did it.
3. In order to charge the H&K family of weapons, you need to lean your support side shoulder forward, and reach to pull the charging handle. This does a couple things:
- It breaks your firing stance
- It throws off your balance
- It requires more time
- It seriously hinders your ability to clear malfunctions if you're a lefty, or are shooting from your support side.
* Also, there is no last-round bolt catch - meaning you have to perform this exagerated movement anytime you reload - again, if you're a southpaw, it'll get annoying.
4. The Safety on the H&K family is inverted, which makes it very counter-intuitive. I don't think this is a tremendous deal, but it's worth noting. I find it awkward to manipulate, as well. I don't think it's just me, as I've been able to work around other awkward safeties (the M14/M1A, AK etc) but this one just always feels like it was designed for the tiny minority of the population that has huge hands.
In short, I really don't see any good reason to opt for a PTR91. They're good quality rifles, but for the money, I think you'd be light years ahead with a FAL, and significantly better off with an M14 clone, if you're just looking for a .308.
If you would be satisfied with a 5.56 (and really, no reason not to be) the AR is a fine choice, and will serve you well. That said, don't skimp and get a bargain gun without a chrome lined barrel/chamber, staked gas key, staked castle nut, and M4 feed ramps. They're subtle things people don't think of when they buy their first AR, but they'll go a long way in preventing problems later.
There is a marketing guru who's really trying to press the H&K family of weapons recently, and has brought up a bunch of reasons why if God needed a rifle, he'd choose the HK91/G3 etc. I generally avoid strong wording, but:
It's all nonsense, and I wouldn't let a friend buy one.
For the money, you'd be far better off with literally any other modern autoloader available on the commercial market.
Hope this helps!
Thank you for the well thought out reply! The guy that's pushing me towards the PTR91 has some Military sharp shooter background, and prefers the .308 round for it's ballistic characteristics. I held an H&K in my local fun shop, and seemed like it would be great for long range shooting. Maybe a little too serious piece of hardware for punching holes in paper. At least with the AR, I can shoot it at my local indoor range, not sure about the larger units.
I'm about 95% sure it's going to be the AR, but will at least shoot his PTR next weekend before I plunk down the $$$'s. Any thoughts on Windham Armory AR's? http://www.windhamweaponry.com/ SWMBO has asked the same question I'm asking myself, do we really "need" a sport utility rifle...
We just picked up a 10/22, looking forward to doing some plinking with that. May take it with me next weekend and let her work on breaking it in while I'm shooting the bigger stuff.
Other than the problem getting ammo for an old .32 WS, what are your thoughts on that rifle compared to the FAL .308?
I looked at some of the parts lists and from what I can tell, the MPC looks like a good little carbine. If I were going to buy an M4, and the price was right, I'd go for it. Their Gas Keys are staked, if their website is to be believed - which it probably is.
As to the PTR/HK91, it is ballistically superior, no question, but:
1. Do you require the ability to have more mass at ranges where your velocity is dropping? (~600yds)
2. Do you want to pay $479 for 1000 rounds of the lowest grade .308, or $266 for the .223?
2a. Please consider that point 2 only takes into account the lowest grade of ammunition, and that quality .308 will cost ~$875/1k rounds.
3. Keep in mind you'll be chosing from one of the least common rifles in the country (HK91) and one of the most prolific rifles in the world (M4)
When comparing the FAL to the HK91 or M4...
The FAL is the finest battle rifle made, in my opinion. It has a hard fought battle pedigree and is a simple, reliable weapon that is fairly common. While it's never seen the distribution that the AR or AK have stateside, they're a really common sight in South America and Africa. The "Paratrooper" FAL is a fine rifle and well worth having - but will cost you what about 2 good quality AR/AK rifles will...
Also, the FAL's standard sights are sub-standard by modern standards. This isn't a huge issue, but they are more difficult to work with. Another small consideration is that the FAL usually mounts optics to the Dust Cover - like the AK, up until real recently - which is less than ideal for consistency.
That said, DSA makes a sturdy mount. I had a FAL one time that was truly a piece of work. I ended up getting rid of it, but I wouldn't have let it go unless it was to a good friend.
That said, the FAL suffers from the same drawbacks in terms of ammo cost and availability that the HK clones do.
My opinion? The AR or AK are really the most versitile rifles going.
The AK adds the ability to hunt in most states, but also carries the stigma of being the "bad guy" rifle... if that matters. The AR, as most already know, is a flatter shooting round and very simple to be accurate with.
Hope this helps!
I don't know if my perception is accurate, but holding, fondling, and cleaning the Windham Arms product has impressed me as an extremely well built firearm. I haven't had an opportunity to shoot with it yet, some incredibly awful and time consuming family issues are preventing any fun time right now.
I did have an opportunity to shoot the PTR91, M1, and AK. PTR is an extremely accurate serious piece of iron. Unfortunately, the owner's firearm was having some issues, also his AK was too. Also I brought along my father in laws .32 WS. The .32 was probably my fav of the day, although I found my thumb getting chewed up by the rear sight.
Total newbie here with some firearm questions that I was hoping you could help me with. I already have a lever action 30-30 rifle that I've shot a few times (pretty fun), but I'm planning on buying a couple pistols and wanted to get your opinion.
Since I'm very new to guns in general, I'm thinking of getting two pistols; the first as a target-pistol that can double as a plinker and the second as a bigger calibur defense pistol I'm semi-interested in competitive target shooting, so I'm thinking of getting a ruger Mark III hunter for that. Despite the longer barrel, the weight distribution on it is very well centered. I figure it's a good start for a cheap 22 pistol. Thoughts?
For my second handgun, I'm looking for something not too physically large and also not larger than a 9mm or .380 calibur. I'm therefore looking at a Beretta 84FS. I've held one and the balance feels pretty good. I looked at a bunch of 1911 style 9mm's (sig, kimber, etc), but they all feel barrel-heavy in my opinion, which is why I'm looking at the beretta. The only thing I'm unsure about this is that it appears to have a pull-back hammer as well as a slide and either can be used (according to the gun shop salesmen). He mentioned something about a two-stage trigger pull (which I actually kind of like), but I can't remember exactly. Anyone familiar with this gun?
Also, I find that I'm having trouble expecting the recoil on my rifle. I took a lesson and tried a few different stances (I liked the weaver the best), but I'm still finding myself pre-flinching and expecting the kick too much. It's making me tense up, close my eyes, and miss the target alot of the time. Any tips on mitigating this or do I just to shoot it a bunch to get used to the kick?
I don't have much experience with .22 pistols so I'll duly keep my trap shut on that. (That said, I'd think a Ruger would do just fine as a .22 plinker)
I personally own a 1911 in .45 and love it, but we all have personal preferences. I looked at a Beretta 84 myself for a while. Beautiful gun, but the .380 was a smaller caliber than what I was willing to do. I'd recommend something in 9mm. The Beretta Cougar is a great little mini-92 that's worth taking a look at, and it's in 9mm (let's you stay in the Beretta brand name too, if that's what you like). The 92 itself is worth taking a look at (Taurus makes a decent copy, the PT92, cheaper and just as good).
My 2 cents here? Beretta 84 is a beautiful little gun, and can make for a great backup or concealed carry gun. But I figure on a defensive sidearm (especially if it's the only one you own) being 9mm or higher. "9mm short" is not 9mm.
Most people I train with end up with either a Glock or a 1911 after they shake out the problems with their original choices.
For a defensive pistol you do not want to skimp on quality. You want a pistol that professionals like police choose for their firearm.
Putting it in perspective, if you train regularly with your pistol you will quickly shoot more in amunition than the original cost of the pistol.
BTW - in addition to being an underpowered round, .380 costs more than 9mm.
My suggestion to you is to consider a Glock 9mm, either the G19 compact model or G17 regular size model.
I'm not disagreeing, just pointing out a couple things from my own experience and a friend who has some experience in these things. I have a G19 and carry it sometimes. But, I don't have a good iwb holster for it yet and the owb holster I have tends to bulge against whatever garment I wear over it.
A friend is a cop and took over a gun shop from his father who had been there for a generation or so. He carries a Glock on-the-job, but carries a S&W .38 sp. for a personal weapon. He cites the reliability of a revolver. If it misfires, just pull the trigger again. No jams.
Precisely why I carry a Sig P226 Navy. If it's good enough for the SEAL Teams, it's good enough for me.
Also, because I can't throw a rock at 1280 fps............
Welcome and I hope you find an acceptable answer here! It's good to see some life still in this old thread.
As far as a .22 - I second your motion, and FAlley's suggestion of a Ruger MKII or III. The MKIII is good, though some of the features make it a little less desirable for me. Magazine safeties are not something I am fond of.
They're a great little game getter, reliable, inexpensive and common. In many ways, I think they're the "ideal" survival weapon, as the ammo is cheap, common and effective on the type of game you'd encounter most often.
As far as a defensive firearm, the general advice of "9mm or >" is really pretty sound. The 9mm has a lot going for it; common, effective and inexpensive, and perhaps most importantly, great capacity.
Depending on your frame and what you're comfortable carrying, there are several acceptable offerings in 9mm.
My baseline suggestion is the G19, but the 26 is also a fine choice.
The M&P series from Smith and Wesson, and their Shield pistol are pretty acceptable as well.
I would steer clear of 1911's in 9mm... the design, while classic and gritty, doesn't take advantage of the 9mm cartridge. I also steer well away from long, double action triggers. If you like double action, or feel it suits you best, I'd strongly encourage a Sig Sauer.
As for the recoil issues with your rifle, move to something lighter. Honestly, it's a good, time proven strategy, and there's nothing shameful about it. There are a couple things about humans that influence our shooting:
1. No one is "born" with skill. You must develop it.
2. No one is "born" enjoying loud noises, like gunshots.
Take some time with a .22 caliber rifle, plink and get comfortable. Then, shoot your other rifle often. Familiarity is a big component in overcoming flinch.
I have a Mk III and upgraded it with the Volquartsen kit. It's 1 million times better... But, not unheard of, there is occassional safety issue, which I experienced on mine. VQ made it right, but the AD scared the brown stuff into my pants when it happened.
Hard to believe since I first posted in this thread, SWMBO and I have built a nice collection and developed a new hobby ;)
Spot on advice. Don't allow yourself to reinforce the flinch. Lever action 30-30 has a lot of snap.
Thanks for the replies everyone, good points.
I ended up shooting a friend's 9mm glock G19 the other day and it felt pretty solid. My only gripe was that the recoil seemed too "fast/jumpy/stiff" as opposed to "smooth." I found myself having to take an extra half-second to steady the gun after each shot because of this. But what do I know, I'm a total newb and could be completely wrong.
Anywho, I ended up going with the beretta 84fs cheetah in the end since I wanted a smaller gun, with smaller caliber/kick, plus the weight balance just feels so perfect and its magazines hold 13 rounds. I understand that it is slightly more expensive than 9mm ammo, but not that much.
I'm planning to get the ruger MKIII down the road as well in a couple months. I've already shot one and think they're great little pistols. And yes, I'm planning on taking lessons :) . Thanks for the help!
p.s. definitely looked at the sig options, but we don't get any of their fun models in my state...
Search on you tube for videos by the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF).
They have several videos covering grip, stance, sight alignment and sight picture, trigger control. I used them as pre-lesson material for some of my friends and it seemed to help a lot.
As far as the recoil, it is going to happen. The trick is that you want to have your fundamentals done proplerly so when the gun recoils the muzzle moves straight up and then returns to the exact same position it was in when you pressed the trigger.
When you are lining up you sights and then pressing the trigger, you need to keep your attention on the front sight the entire time. You should see the front sight rise and fall (some people blink or close their eyes). You need to acquire a second sight picture after each shot. This is called "follow through". Aside from putting you into position to make a second defensive shot, it prevents you from becoming distracted in the middle of making the shot.
A common mistake is that people try to see where the shot hit, but actually start to look before they have finished the process of aligning the sights, pressing the trigger, getting a second sight picture. This results in the shots going low because you moved while shooting.
So, remember, one shot but two sight pictures.
Good luck with your new Beretta. If that is a .380 and you plan on using it for self defense you should make sure to get some of the good newer design self defense ammo. You can use normal ammo for practicing, but if you get self defense ammo get enough extra to run enough through your gun to make sure it functions properly with that ammo. Massad Ayoob recommends 200 rounds.
By good defensive ammo I mean jacketed hollow point. Speer Gold Dot, Hornady Critical Defense or Winchester Ranger T series would be good choices.
You mention being in a state with restrictions, so I don't know if you can buy ammo over the Internet, but sgammo.com sells this sort of defensive ammo in boxes of 50 for roughly the same price as a box of 20 goes for locally. They might also be cheaper on target ammo.
The sgammo.com prices are wonderful. Thanks.
They are very reliable and prompt. A family run business.
They currently have the hard to get 9mm Federal HST in 147 grain. Many consider this to be the latest iteration of the nicest carry ammo.
Very good expansion and not much recoil.
Terrified, Kendra called her mom, who told her to get the gun and hide in the closet.
“I said you go get the gun and you get in my closet right now and you call 911,” Debra St. Klair told KFOR-TV.
Kendra was in the closet, on the phone with the 911 dispatcher and gripping the .40 caliber Glock when she saw the closet doorknob start to turn.
“I was sitting there in the closet really scared, not knowing what was gonna happen,” Kendra told KFOR. “When he turned the door handle I shot toward him with my mom’s gun and it hit him right here in the arm.”
Read the whole story here:
Except shooting through the door, when you haven't identified your target, is a good way to injure or kill an innocent person. Given the circumstances though, one can certainly understand her doing what she did and thank goodness, she's OK, no one innocent was hurt, and the perp was caught.
Agree with ao- shooting through the door at an unknown? A handgun- "the Family gun"- readily available to a 12 year old who had never been trained to shoot it? Had time to fetch the gun, but not to exit the house and run to the neighbors? Fortunate outcome for that family, given all the circumstances....Aloha, Steve.
Yes, poor kid. I had the same thought about her shooting through the door = unsafe, but glad she made it. One hopes she will get some safety trainiing and range practice now.
With a little fear in her voice, but otherwise calm, Kendra called her father who asked if she had the weapon he had taught her to use.
“I said you get to the back corner of your room where you have the longest uninterrupted distance between you and the corner he has to come around before he sees you." Kendra's father told KFOR-TV.
Kendra was in her room, on the phone with the 911 dispatcher and gripping the .40 caliber Glock when she saw a shadow as the intruder came around the hallway landing corner towards her room. She put the phone down and acquired a good sight picture.
“I was standing next to my desk focusing on my breathing, my sight picture and keeping my hands steady like I was taught. I was a little nervous, but my Dad told me that if something like this ever happened I would be nervous." Kendra told KFOR. “When he came around the corner towards me I aimed at the hollow part of his neck where the collarbones come together at the top of his sternum and pulled the trigger."
"I'm really sorry about the carpet"
Is there a cure for this disease? LOL
SWMBO now has a pretty .38spl and my hand is on the trigger to purchase a Dillon kit :)
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