The Definitive Firearms Thread

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

jage -

Not trying to make light of your point of view, but as a student of Sifu Lee's Jeet Kune Do, I'm sure you are familiar with his statement "Use no way, as way".  Limiting yourself to your training won't serve you well when you run into someone with a gun.

I am a Kali (Inosanto Lameco) and JKD apprentice instructor under Guro Inosanto and an apprentice instructor in Pekiti tersia under Tuhon Leo Gaje as well as an instructor in Muay Thai under Ajarn Chai Sirsute.  In all of my study and instruction with them, they have hammered home the point that you must be ready to take things to the level required immediately.  A gun levels the playing field when some snot nosed thug pulls a gun - much more so than a knife or fists.  You may never need it, but it's better to have something you don't use than to not have something when you need it.

How would you think through an encounter when your opponent is armed and not really interested in talking things through?  I agree with using your skill and training in an encounter with an unarmed opponent - but I think you need to rethink your approach in considering coming up against someone who has a gun. 

I do understand your mental debate though - for what it's worth, Guro Dan despises the use of a karambit on a human being, but he still teaches it because the guy you run into may not share the same feelings about using it on you.

 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Jeff,

You said, itemized for ease of address:

Quote:

1. Do you feel like your firearm training can allow you to "control" a situation with non-lethal force, no matter what the situation is? 2. Do you think its possible to use a lethal weapon in a non-lethal manner effectively? I need someone with significant firearm experience to shed some light on this for me. Thanks for your input...Jeff

1. From my experience, this question is almost too stochastic to predict. There are fixed components, and variable components. You can "generally " predict an answer, but there will not be any "Always" or "Never" situations. Just generally and usually.

So, in "all" situations? No. Certainly not. Control of a situation is largely a non-verbal thing, and presense of objects can enhance those non-verbal communications, but they're certainly not a fail-safe.

Disarming a person who is not confident with a gun isn't much work.
If you try and project yourself as tough because you have a gun... well, it'll be paper thin. 
In martial arts, it is really no different. A guy who has never fought before will not project confidence, and will probably be overwhelmed or broken easily. 

2. To use a lethal wepon in a non-lethal manner effectively... this is a tough question to answer because it depends.
Personally, the way I train, I view all shots as "non lethal", and have adopted a doctrine of shooting the target to the ground... I think of it less in terms of "lethal" than in terms of "Effectively neutralized".

To me, if I pull my weapon I've committed to firing.
If that person runs before I can - they're effectively neutralized.
So that's a non-lethal means of employing the weapon.

If you mean targeting specifically for non-lethal shots, it's my opinion that there is simply too many variables to truly do that. A shot to the arm or leg may cause bone or bullet fragments to nick the brachial or femoral artery, inadvertantly causing death.
Conversely, you may be trying to make solid, cranial-occular cavity shots and have deflection due to the skull.

Also, from my experience, when you're engaged, you just shoot. Your body will rely on the "built in" autonomic responses in case of stoppages or running out of ammunition, but your natural inclination will be get the weapon as close to the enemy and pull the trigger until he goes away.

The more honed your marksmanship skills are; Target aquisition, Sight Picture, Trigger Press, Follow Through, the more "true" your shots will be.

This is a very tough question to answer and I want to be right up front about my lack of combat experience.

I've been trained to respond to active shooters, performed Force on Force training with Simunitions and been involved in many FTX's over the years, but I've (thank God) never had to fight for my life, or take someone elses.

From those experiences, I'd say that you're "ready" to start down that path, but you may need to do some introspective thought about the real threats that exist, and how you intend to approach them.

If you do choose to get a firearm for self defense, commit yourself fully to understanding it's place in your skill "tool box".

I hope this helps!
Cheers,

Aaron

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Dogs...,

I think you misunderstood me, or I misunderstood you. Are you under the impression that I believe its better to use hand to hand skills against an armed opponent? If so, my apologies if I led you to think I felt that way. (BTW, I'm so jealous that you train with Guro Inosanto and Tuhon Gaje. I have attended many of their seminars over the years, but never did make it out to the Inosanto Academy. Is it still in Marina Del Rey?) 

Anyways, I tend to agree with your statement that it would be better to have the firearm option if the situation called for it. I just really don't want to bring a firearm in to the house. As a martial artist, you understand that your in control of the lethality of your technique, but its not the same situation with a firearm. There is no chance that a family member is going to accidently kill them self or someone else with your martial art skills.

Did your firearm training extinguish such concerns for you? Is my perception of the "dangers" of firearms something that could be alleviated by extensive firearm training?

Thanks for the input and watch out for that "wa-tick" (Kali joke)

Jeff 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Aaron, Thank you for your excellent response to my questions. I truly value your answers...Jeff

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Jag,

You have undoubtedly attained a higher level of proficiency than I did in the various styles I studied. Thus, you may have more options in responding to an attacker. Nevertheless, trying to parse out what an attacker's motivation, intent, and skill level are in the millisecond following an attack strikes me as unrealistic and putting you at a grave disadvantage.

I don't know what Aaron's response will be but my gun fighting training was double tap to the center of mass and keep shooting until someone is no longer a threat. Only the Lone Ranger shot to wound. It's not a feasible tactic. Some people can absorb a huge amount of pain and keep coming, crossing a room in the blink of an eye to kill you.

I don't think a firearm is going to give you the the flexibility you are looking for because it just may not be there in the situation.

SG

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Jeff,

Glad to help brother!
Let us all know what you decide, and we can discuss more of the philosophy of the discipline.

Also, this is treading on the question you posed to Dogs a bit, but it's an experience thing, so the more thrown in, the merrier in my opinion.

You said:

Quote:

Did your firearm training extinguish such concerns for you? Is my perception of the "dangers" of firearms something that could be alleviated by extensive firearm training?

I think this is largely a societal concern.
Most of peoples natural "aversion" isn't really to firearms, so much as it is two other factors:

1. Social Considerations - Society has painted guns in a "criminal" light. You hear about assault weapons, gunfights, gunmen and gun crimes. This is a propaganda technique, and it's very successful. It demonizes the object, and absolves the aggressor; which fits in very well with our justice system that emphesizes "Rehabilitation" over "Punishment".

These concepts are part of the reason we are failing to curb crime, and why we continue to see guns as a poltical issue... which they shouldn't be.

2. Aversion to loud noises - As odd as this may sound, humans are only born with two innate fears; Loud noises, which cause an involuntary reflex, and falling. For a lot of people, the psychological effects of a controlled detonation very near their face is too massive to overcome, even if they don't consciously recognize that their fear is more of the concussion, recoil and noise than it is the object itself.

This is just my opinion, and I think experience can temper these fears, and ultimately, reason and ability will negate them.

Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Jeff,

I absolutely understand your ambivalence regarding firearms. Other than a BB gun as a kid and a beautiful Winchester 22 rifle I received as an older child, I had little exposure to firearms until I joined the Army. Even then, as a doctor, my exposure was fairly limited. What I did see, particularly during a trauma rotation in East L.A., left me with less than a favorable impression, as one might expect. (On the plus side, I guess, I can verify that the majority of firearm injuries are not immediately life-threatening.)

Until quite recently, I had something of an elitist liberal mindset with regard to firearms. I even looked down somewhat upon hunters, for what I perceived to be a low-brow "bubba" mentality. I valued soldiers, and appreciate the commitment that lifestyle demands, but saw little utility for firearms in a modern, civilized world.

However, upon reflecting upon the importance of firearms in civilian hands in the birth of this country, and the challenges we face once again, I can now see the value. Whether for self-defense, subsistence hunting, or resistance to tyranny, firearms in civilian hands still makes sense, at least in this country. In an ideal world, I would like to see no firearms, but we simply do not live in an ideal time.

Still, I have been reluctant to move substantially on this issue, for many of the reasons you mentioned. To date, my "armory" only consists of three BB guns (for my three sons, mostly, but I admit to having fun with them, too), the Winchester rifle I received decades ago, and two recently acquired Walther 22 pistols. I really like the Walthers; they are small, easy to shoot, and have so far handled all brands of 22LR I have tried. I will likely purchase one or two shotguns in the near future, but that may be the end of my acquisitions for the foreseeable future.

I don't have much of a concern regarding potentially killing someone. This may be partly due to the fact that one becomes familiar with death in this profession, but mostly due to the fairly low likelihood of this occurrence where I live, and the fact that if it was someone else or someone in my family, I'd choose someone else. My main concern is safety in the home, so I take the usual precautions regarding secure storage away from curious minds, and plan on shooting lessons for my wife and sons in the near future.

I wish you my best in your deliberations. I would also like to again extend kudos to Aaron and all the other knowledgeable respondents who have contributed to this thread, which I continue to follow regularly. Your advise has been very good, and to the extent to which I can verify from outside sources, spot-on. Perhaps more importantly, you have contributed in a remarkably detached manner, which can be exceedingly difficult on a subject potentially charged with as much emotion as this! 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread
JAG wrote:

Dogs...,

I think you misunderstood me, or I misunderstood you. Are you under the impression that I believe its better to use hand to hand skills against an armed opponent? If so, my apologies if I led you to think I felt that way. (BTW, I'm so jealous that you train with Guro Inosanto and Tuhon Gaje. I have attended many of their seminars over the years, but never did make it out to the Inosanto Academy. Is it still in Marina Del Rey?) 

Anyways, I tend to agree with your statement that it would be better to have the firearm option if the situation called for it. I just really don't want to bring a firearm in to the house. As a martial artist, you understand that your in control of the lethality of your technique, but its not the same situation with a firearm. There is no chance that a family member is going to accidently kill them self or someone else with your martial art skills.

Did your firearm training extinguish such concerns for you? Is my perception of the "dangers" of firearms something that could be alleviated by extensive firearm training?

Thanks for the input and watch out for that "wa-tick" (Kali joke)

Jeff 

Jeff -

It may be 6 degrees of separation, but I think you also control the lethality of technique with the gun as well.  Like Aaron said in the post above, if I have made the decision to pull my gun I am going to shoot - which by default means that I have assessed that to be the appropriate course of action given the situation. 

Training with firearms is critical.  It gives you a great sense of calm and confidence when you have developed proficiency.  I think you would quickly find out that training with a firearm would go far in changing your perception of them.  Think back to the first time you held an eskrima stick and watched your instructor do some abenico flourishes or redondos - and now you can do those techniques.  After training with a firearm, you will look at it as just another tool in the arsenal.

Guro Dan is still in Orange County.  And my hands still hurt when I think about seminars with Tuhon Gaje.

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

SG, 

Please forgive my arrogance. I truly didn't intend to come across as some "expert" in martial arts. My god, I'm married with a kid, getting fatter by the day, and forty! And I really did not intend to start a debate on martial arts. The reason I brought my experience in martial arts up in the first place, was to state that I no longer felt like it is an effective means of protecting my family anymore, and thus the inquiry about firearms. Please forgive my inability to communicate this correctly.

 

Aaron, Dr.P, SG, and Dogs..,

Your responses to my questions were exactly what I was looking for. They brought me some clarity. I'm sure I will re-read your responses several times as I try to make this decision. I am very grateful to you for taking the time to help me with this. This is a great forum and community.

Jeff 

 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Jag,

I hope I didn't sound too strident.  When I was in shape and somewhat competent, (too many decades ago) I had a fair degree of confidence in the martial arts as a self protection method. I also became interested in firearms after a brief job in counterterrorism work (analysis side). Several years later, the "famous" master instructor in a major city where I was living  was standing outside his home when a passerby suddenly drew a pistol and forced him into his house, demanding all of his money. After "Joe" gave him the money, he had a feeling that the guy was going to kill him anyway so he tried to take him down. He was grievously wounded multiple times, spent much time hospitalized, survived, and the guy escaped. All of his students (one a good friend of mine) were horrified. If he couldn't protect himself, who could? The master said that he survived BECAUSE of his training, LOL. His students were split. I don't think an armed person would have done any better in that situation but it was now obvious to half his students that you were not bullet proof because you were a zillion degree black belt. Perhaps if he had been someone who faced armed thugs or soldiers daily and was used to real combat situations and not gym encounters it might have gone differently. Nevertheless, I've seen at least one upper black belt hired as "security" for visiting dignitaries shot and killed.

 Not to minimize the martial arts..I can't remember  who said that the best martial artist in the world was no match for a 12 y.o. girl with a shotgun. When the martial arts were developed, these techniques became state-of-the art self defense methodology. When firearms arrived, they were no longer the most effective paradigm.

 GLTA.

 

SG

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Everyone -

This is a great thread with lots of good information. Based on the folks that are posting here, most of you either have, or plan to have, weapons at your disposal - something that I completely agree with.

Now, I have decided that it is time for me to also obtain a firearm. My policeman son-in-law is going to help me pick out a pistol later this week - a fact that I just sprung on my wife.

I also plan on obtaining a concealed-carry permit as well as spend time on a range gaining experience with the weapon. I am not unfamiliar with firearms having learned to use, and respect, them in the military. Granted that was a few years ago (1962-1966).

Wife's reaction: I don't want a gun in my house. If you carry a gun with you, I will not go anywhere with you.  Yikes! Surprised

Obvious question then - for those of you whose wife/partner was against the concept in the beginning, what did you do to gain acceptance of the concept - or did you?

H E L P!  Foot in mouth

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Sam,

You've hit the number one hotspot with gun ownership. The social considerations.

Honestly, and I don't mean to sound rude, ignore it. If you can carry without anyone being any the wiser, that's the best approach. If the missus is very unreasonable on the issue, don't chastize her - and don't make it an issue to argue over. Just tell her that it's a choice you've made and you'd hope she respects it. Make a concession for her, and as always, communicate.

Rationalize (without doing the typical thing: "What if you're being raped?" - so many times guys use that and hit a rock wall) the use of arms, and tell her that with things getting worse, it's an intelligent desicison.

My favorite analogy when people ask "why do you carry a gun, are you expecting trouble?"
"The same reason I wear a seatbelt, it's a safety precaution that makes sense. I'm not planning in getting in a wreck, but if I do, I want to be as well protected as possible."

Those kinds of reactions are very common, but I think they're largely empty threats.
If you can, get her to take a class with you. More disinformation can be dispelled in a 5 hour class than 10 years worth of arguing.

I hope this helps, and keep us updated as to what you look into and decide on =)

Cheers,

Aaron

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread
Aaron Moyer wrote:

Sam,

You've hit the number one hotspot with gun ownership. The social considerations.

Honestly, and I don't mean to sound rude, ignore it. If you can carry without anyone being any the wiser, that's the best approach. If the missus is very unreasonable on the issue, don't chastize her - and don't make it an issue to argue over. Just tell her that it's a choice you've made and you'd hope she respects it. Make a concession for her, and as always, communicate.

Rationalize (without doing the typical thing: "What if you're being raped?" - so many times guys use that and hit a rock wall) the use of arms, and tell her that with things getting worse, it's an intelligent desicison.

My favorite analogy when people ask "why do you carry a gun, are you expecting trouble?"
"The same reason I wear a seatbelt, it's a safety precaution that makes sense. I'm not planning in getting in a wreck, but if I do, I want to be as well protected as possible."

Those kinds of reactions are very common, but I think they're largely empty threats.
If you can, get her to take a class with you. More disinformation can be dispelled in a 5 hour class than 10 years worth of arguing.

I hope this helps, and keep us updated as to what you look into and decide on =)

Cheers,

Aaron

Sage advice, my friend.

What specific class are you referring to? Don't know if she'll have any interest in a firearms class, but it never hurts to ask.

Right now, I think my son-in-law is going to be pointing me at Glock.

Any recommendations? I do respect your judgement - especially in this area.

He was talking about a 9mm gun for the house and a smaller 9mm "carry-gun". Not sure if I need both. My interpretation is this. If push-comes-to-shove and I have to actually use my weapon, it will be in close quarters. Since the objective is stopping the threat (not necessarily making it permanent - but if that's the outcome, so be it), the smaller "carry-gun" should do the trick, no?

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Hey Sam, this is a common question, that often comes up on the Firearms boards that I also frequent.

To distill everything down there are a number of things you can try,

So things to try (probably in order, but you know your wife)

  1. Talk to her about it, about your fears, concerns and what you'll derive from owning and carrying a defensive weapon, also discuss why you would like her to consider it too. Try to also see where she's coming from, is it irrational fear? Or is it something more moralistic? a phobia can be the easiest to fix, and also the hardest, depending on the root. If it's moralistic then rationaly she should be fine if you both agree to disagree, not necessarily happy, but at least come to a compromise.
  2. Invite her to the Range, and try to get her shooting 22LR. A lot of people's negative perceptions of weapons is fear of the unknown, when they realize that people with firearms can be responsible and disciplined, and that guns just don't go off, or explode in their hand. This tends to improve things. Especially if it's a fear that firearms do things on their own.
  3. If 1 and 2 fail, does your wife and you have a mutual female friend who is a shooter? Better yet does your Wife alone have a female friend who is a shooter? See whether she can discuss this your wife, she might be better able to understand your wife's concerns that you are.

If 1-3 fail I'd say you're done; ultimately its up to your wife, if she's totally adamant that
she will go nowhere near a gun or have one in the house, or be with you
while you're carrying, then you might as well stop now. That may seem
fatalistic but it's a fact, your choice if you pursue this with
reckless abandon could end up being a choice between your weapons and your wife.. There is a good chance that she has a deeply rooted phobia of firearms, this is likely territory of a professional (a psychologist) however raising that option to try to resolve the issue could have life changing ramifications.

HTH

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

My wife has no qualms about ny owning weapons but went ballistic when I told her I wanted to store some food.

Go figure.

 

SG

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Sam,

It sounds like your son-in-law is point you in the right direction.
Check all the 9mm models out, but I think your best bet is the G19. It's big enough to fight with, and small enough to carry. Holds 15 rounds. If I had it all to do over, I'd get 2 G19's and 1 G26 (wife carries the 26).

The G19 makes a good carry gun, and it's only 1/2 inch shorter than the 17, which is arguably the better "house gun".

IMHO, you're better off spending the money on a Remington 870 for a house gun. It'll cost you less, and diversify your options.

As far as classes, I know that many shops in Oregon have classes for the Conceal Carry License. It's brief, coveres a lot of the responsibility aspects and dispels some myths. They're also not expensive or time consuming. For the both of you, probably $150.

Don't quote me though.

Anyway, good luck!

Aaron

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Aaron,

What do you think about the H&K pistol line?  I know you are a big fan of the glock line, but my brother who is a police officer says H&K makes the better pistol?  your thoughts?

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread
Gungnir wrote:

Hey Sam, this is a common question, that often comes up on the Firearms boards that I also frequent.

To distill everything down there are a number of things you can try,

So things to try (probably in order, but you know your wife)

  1. Talk to her about it, about your fears, concerns and what you'll derive from owning and carrying a defensive weapon, also discuss why you would like her to consider it too. Try to also see where she's coming from, is it irrational fear? Or is it something more moralistic? a phobia can be the easiest to fix, and also the hardest, depending on the root. If it's moralistic then rationaly she should be fine if you both agree to disagree, not necessarily happy, but at least come to a compromise.
  2. Invite her to the Range, and try to get her shooting 22LR. A lot of people's negative perceptions of weapons is fear of the unknown, when they realize that people with firearms can be responsible and disciplined, and that guns just don't go off, or explode in their hand. This tends to improve things. Especially if it's a fear that firearms do things on their own.
  3. If 1 and 2 fail, does your wife and you have a mutual female friend who is a shooter? Better yet does your Wife alone have a female friend who is a shooter? See whether she can discuss this your wife, she might be better able to understand your wife's concerns that you are.

If 1-3 fail I'd say you're done; ultimately its up to your wife, if she's totally adamant thatshe will go nowhere near a gun or have one in the house, or be with youwhile you're carrying, then you might as well stop now. That may seemfatalistic but it's a fact, your choice if you pursue this withreckless abandon could end up being a choice between your weapons and your wife.. There is a good chance that she has a deeply rooted phobia of firearms, this is likely territory of a professional (a psychologist) however raising that option to try to resolve the issue could have life changing ramifications.

HTH

This sounds like excellent advice, to include the possible outcome if 1-3 fail!

My wife's concern was primarily the safety of our kids, and we've addressed that as best we could.

That said, one of our closest friends are another couple (he is another surgeon, and a former roommate during residency) who we have known for many years. The wife's policeman brother was killed some years ago by a firearm in the line of duty, and she is adamantly opposed the the idea of firearms anywhere near her or her family. Out of respect for her feelings, I will likely never mention our recent firearm purchases, meager though they may be, and would absolutely never carry a firearm when we are with them.

If my wife felt the same way as our friend, and I could not convince her otherwise, I'd simply drop the matter.

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread
ccpetersmd wrote:

If my wife felt the same way as our friend, and I could not convince her otherwise, I'd simply drop the matter.

Doc,

I don't know if it is your intention, but with statements like this, and the one about not all piling on Sam Linder, you are coming across as a really thoughtful, intelligent, worldly kind of fellow that knows a little about the human psyche.

I, for one, am disgusted by this and I find that it has no place in a firearms thread like this. You know we have manly reputations and testosterone laden discussions to have here. There is simply no room for your "sissy talk"

I just don't see any room for your "nice guy" stuff here, sir! I'm sure the others will agree!

GOOD DAY!

ROG, er a Rog, sorry for yelling...

hehe Laughing

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Eddy, your little slap at us firearms owners is complete junk. It's a bigoted caricature and THAT has no place in this discussion. It's a provocation, nothing more. 

Really. You're better than that. Tell me. Am I being manly and hyper-hormonal? 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread
R_Eddy wrote:
ccpetersmd wrote:

If my wife felt the same way as our friend, and I could not convince her otherwise, I'd simply drop the matter.

Doc,

I don't know if it is your intention, but with statements like this, and the one about not all piling on Sam Linder, you are coming across as a really thoughtful, intelligent, worldly kind of fellow that knows a little about the human psyche.

I, for one, am disgusted by this and I find that it has no place in a firearms thread like this. You know we have manly reputations and testosterone laden discussions to have here. There is simply no room for your "sissy talk"

I just don't see any room for your "nice guy" stuff here, sir! I'm sure the others will agree!

GOOD DAY!

ROG, er a Rog, sorry for yelling...

hehe Laughing

Ha!

Yes, I'm a fairly reasonable type of guy (for a doctor, anyway), yet one who knows how to cut people in many ways!

I'm slick with the Thanksgiving turkey, that's for sure! 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Well, for what it's worth, you are one of those posters who I never pass by when I see the name. I see "Doc" as a must read, reguardless the topic. You definately improve our online communinty with your careful consideration.

Not sure what Ghandi's railing on about, or if he is serious????

Geez, Ghandi! havin' a bad day?

Rog

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread
R_Eddy wrote:

Well, for what it's worth, you are one of those posters who I never pass by when I see the name. I see "Doc" as a must read, reguardless the topic. You definately improve our online communinty with your careful consideration.

Not sure what Ghandi's railing on about, or if he is serious????

Geez, Ghandi! havin' a bad day?

Rog

Thanks, I appreciate the compliment. To be truthful, I'm probably more considerate online than I sometimes am in person. Something about that surgeon mentality that likes to be right. Online, I can take a bit more time, think about other views, and try to formulate a cogent response (the operative word there being try, mind you).

I'm not certain if Gandhi misunderstood your intent, or was simply trying to play it back on you. Not important, anyway. 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Actually I am Eddy. I'm sorry. I'm very uncomfortable right now. That's why I am up at 1 am. My back is killing me. When it's that sore I have a tendency to get short. Sorry.

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread
MGhandi wrote:

Actually I am Eddy. I'm sorry. I'm very uncomfortable right now. That's why I am up at 1 am. My back is killing me. When it's that sore I have a tendency to get short. Sorry.

It's all good, except your back pain.

I won't pretend to know how you feel, just hoping your surgury goes well.

Back to the thread, did you get your 30-30 yet? When I hold one, I feel like I am in a black and white movie. Too cool.

Best,

Rog

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

No Eddy. It's been weeks now and the dealer has a 300+ gun backlog. Mind you, he has a small storefront. Just ordered the Remington 870 too as per Aaron's suggestion. Bought the combination package in a wood stock.

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread
Gungnir wrote:

Hey Sam, this is a common question, that often comes up on the Firearms boards that I also frequent.

To distill everything down there are a number of things you can try,

So things to try (probably in order, but you know your wife)

  1. Talk to her about it, about your fears, concerns and what you'll derive from owning and carrying a defensive weapon, also discuss why you would like her to consider it too. Try to also see where she's coming from, is it irrational fear? Or is it something more moralistic? a phobia can be the easiest to fix, and also the hardest, depending on the root. If it's moralistic then rationaly she should be fine if you both agree to disagree, not necessarily happy, but at least come to a compromise.
  2. Invite her to the Range, and try to get her shooting 22LR. A lot of people's negative perceptions of weapons is fear of the unknown, when they realize that people with firearms can be responsible and disciplined, and that guns just don't go off, or explode in their hand. This tends to improve things. Especially if it's a fear that firearms do things on their own.
  3. If 1 and 2 fail, does your wife and you have a mutual female friend who is a shooter? Better yet does your Wife alone have a female friend who is a shooter? See whether she can discuss this your wife, she might be better able to understand your wife's concerns that you are.

If 1-3 fail I'd say you're done; ultimately its up to your wife, if she's totally adamant that
she will go nowhere near a gun or have one in the house, or be with you
while you're carrying, then you might as well stop now. That may seem
fatalistic but it's a fact, your choice if you pursue this with
reckless abandon could end up being a choice between your weapons and your wife.. There is a good chance that she has a deeply rooted phobia of firearms, this is likely territory of a professional (a psychologist) however raising that option to try to resolve the issue could have life changing ramifications.

HTH

Gungnir,

That's some well thought out set of suggestions. Thank you for your advice.

#1 seems to have some possibilities.

#2 is a non-starter. No way will she pick up a gun.

#3 is a good idea but I don't know that any of her female friends possess or shoot guns. Keep in mind, we're both 65. Perhaps it's a generational thing?

As for your final paragraph: Let's see wife or gun, wife or gun, hmmmmmm.........................  Wink

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Nice on the 870. I have one I use for Turkey. Mine's camo, but they are a fine machine regardless the color.

I have a red dot for my AR15, and I really like it. My buddy put one on his shotgun for turkey, and I think it makes some sense all around. Are you going with iron sights or adding optics?

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread
SamLinder wrote:

As for your final paragraph: Let's see wife or gun, wife or gun, hmmmmmm.........................  Wink

Sam, I'm guessing your wife doesn't frequent the gun shops or CM.com!

Rog

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Optics. What's your take on putting a wideview low magnification scope on the .30-30? I'm thinking that's an extra 20-30 boxes of 12 Ga shells. Most .30-30 shots are at under 100 yards.

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