The Definitive Firearms Thread

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Hey Daniel,

Glad to help!
The Sig is definately a good place to start. I agree with you about the Glock - it literally took me years to be able to really "like" it. Ultimately, my mindset had to change. It became more of a matter of can I learn to be more comfortable with the tool, rather than 'is this tool comfortable for me?' I still much prefer the 1911, but I know it weighs about twice as much, costs nearly twice as much to shoot, and holds half as many rounds ;)

That said, the M&P is quickly becoming the pistol to beat from what I hear from Professionals I respect.

Depending on where you're at in the world, Training is not quite that expensive (it can be!) but between travel, ammo and course fees, it can definately get overwhelming. If you want, let me know your general location, and I can give you some suggestions and price ranges for some decent schools!

Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Hey all,

I really hate to do this, but I preach political activism, so here goes...
Obama has nominated Cass Sunstein for the post of "Regulatory Czar", who is a total fruit loop. He's suggested that animals should be able to sue humans, and has repeatedly argued for banning both guns and hunting outright.

Since this is a thread devoted to discussion of the responsible use of arms, I feel it's very important that we take steps to keep guys like this from "ascending" to power. I know this website looks a bit "sensation", but I urge you to take the time, look it over, and act if you feel it represents your feelings, interest and our nations ideals of civil liberties:

http://www.stopsunstein.com/
And if you do, please sign the petition.

Thanks for looking, and lets hope they don't make criminals out of us through no fault or wrongdoing on our part.
8-\

Aaron

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Hey Aaron

I didn't mean the courses were $1500 - it was my impression that sig pistols went for that.  I've looked up a few prices online today and I think I was a bit high on that in general.  Their training courses go for $400 - $800 usually and sometimes more if they're longer or more intensive.  I haven't heard much in the way of reviews but the proximity probably can't be beat.

I live between NYC and southeastern New Hampshire.  I have relatives in CT and FL (Tampa area) that I can visit.  I'd definitely appreciate recommendations on training.  I'm very comfortable with guns in general but never served in the military and have had no other practical reason to learn specific fighting technique/tactics.  I don't know what I think the odds are of a total societal breakdown but I do think that over the next decade the frequency of desperation and violent crime will increase and I'd like to be confidently able to protect myself and my family.  I've already started seeing clear signs of problems in the city, from friends being mugged to people unashamedly picking through my buildings' garbage in the middle of the day.  Entire buildings are sitting unrented (some unfinished) and visible homelessness has appeared to me to increase.  Ironically, it is so time consuming and expensive to legally own a firearm in NYC that I doubt I'll go through the process - just hope instead to get out of town if things start to go bad enough.

Your perspective on the glock is interesting.   The difference, I suppose, between shooting for fun and shooting for business/neccessity.

Thank you again for sharing your knowlege.

Daniel

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Hey Daniel,

My mistake! I thought you meant the cost of a training course!
A decent SiG in new condition can be had typically for 800 or less. A tactical Model may run a bit more.

As far as Schools in the New England area... ouch. I don't really know of any.

Camden Tennessee and Tactical Response is my first inclination - that's a bit of traveling, but not tooooo bad. You'll be flying where ever you go, so that's probably the closest.

Sorry I can't be of more help... perhaps someone else will have some advice on a school.

Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Aaron. I hope this thread goes on for 3,000 pages. It's one of my favorite threads on the entire net. No, not patronizing you buddy. It's a useful and informative thread. Two thumbs up. I check in daily to see what's posted. Guys here know their stuff.

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Ivory,

 

Here's your school:

http://www.ayoob.com/

He's the man. My friend went there.In NH.

SG

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Cape,

You rock!
Excellent suggestion. I know Ayoob started LFI out here, which later became Firearms Academy of Seattle.

They're "good to go".
Ayoob has arguably done more for combatitives and gunfighting than anyone since Colonel Cooper developed the "modern technique".

Gandhi,

Thanks for the high complment brother! I sincerely appreciate it!
And I agree - thank you all for your contributions on this thread. It has honestly exceeded my expectations in terms of civility, information, and cultivating mindset.
I hope it is consistent with the format Dr. Martenson has laid out for us, and in the same spirit!

Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

I think it's quite consistent. Let's face it. An economic crash of catastrophic proportions is a distinct possibility. And with it could come substantial social unrest and disruption of the food supply. Firearms are related to this via two critical links:

1. They will be necessary for hunting of food (self-sustainability). 

2. They will be necessary for self-defense against a plethora of very very desperate people (self-preservation). 

I think it would be a tragic omission to not discuss and educate members on firearms considering that they will be necessary after an economic collapse. 

I cannot think of a reason why any board member, or Chris, would object to this discussion provided that it didn't morph into advocacy of offensive violence (which I would stauchly oppose, see my username) or a call to arms for any "revolutionary" or "insurrection" type of events (again, I would oppose) or other irresponsible discussions regarding firearms. 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread
MGhandi wrote:

Aaron. I hope this thread goes on for 3,000 pages. It's one of my favorite threads on the entire net. No, not patronizing you buddy. It's a useful and informative thread. Two thumbs up. I check in daily to see what's posted. Guys here know their stuff.

I'm just excited that the number of posts exceeds the Religion and Politics thread!

And, very good information from Aaron and others; I have followed this thread with interest. 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread
Aaron Moyer wrote:

Hey all,

I really hate to do this, but I preach political activism, so here goes...
Obama has nominated Cass Sunstein for the post of "Regulatory Czar", who is a total fruit loop. He's suggested that animals should be able to sue humans, and has repeatedly argued for banning both guns and hunting outright.

Since this is a thread devoted to discussion of the responsible use of arms, I feel it's very important that we take steps to keep guys like this from "ascending" to power. I know this website looks a bit "sensation", but I urge you to take the time, look it over, and act if you feel it represents your feelings, interest and our nations ideals of civil liberties:

http://www.stopsunstein.com/
And if you do, please sign the petition.

Thanks for looking, and lets hope they don't make criminals out of us through no fault or wrongdoing on our part.
8-\

Aaron

Aaron,

My friend, this is a place where you and I sharply part company. The "stopsunstein.com" site has taken Sunstein's remarks out of context and has created a monster where none exists. If you read his paper completely, you will find he is against animal cruelty within the context of hunting, farming, and scientific/medical use.

http://www.law.uchicago.edu/academics/publiclaw/resources/30.crs.animals.pdf.

As a lover of animals, I absolutely agree with his perspectives. To correlate his comments on preventing cruelty to animals with a presumed desire to ban hunting and gun possession is making an extraordinary leap that is totally unjustified.

Yes, he questions the current interpretation of the 2nd Amendment (Heller) but so have many, many legal scholars. As for me, I am in agreement with those on this thread who believe in an individuals right to bear arms. However, a right to bear arms and to hunt does not convey a right to be cruel to animals.

I'm going to stick my neck out here even further - so feel free to try and chop it off if you choose.

Frankly I would like to see sports hunting banned completely. I think it is unconscionable for humans to take high powered weapons and attack animals strictly for sport. If you have no access to food and hunting is done to sustain life, that is a different story.

After waiting way too long, the British finally banned fox hunting. It was
considered "good sport" by the aristocracy until public outrage finally
got the government to ban that outrageous, sickening pageant.

If you want to prove how brave you are by entering the domain of animals - take a camera! Why people think killing an animal and sticking its head or antlers on a wall is ok and makes them macho is beyond me. Personally, it makes me sick and it demeans them in my eyes.

 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Before anyone responds further on the Sunstein issue Aaron raised or the sport hunting issue Sam raised, please consider not responding at all. It's not hard to imagine how the ensuing discussion could careen out of control with endless prattle on either side of both issues.

I suspect many have found this thread to be a very useful discussion of firearms. It has been so because of the excellent insights of Aaron and others, and their willingness to share their expertise, but also because the discussion has generally been fairly well contained to that purpose (excepting a few quick diversions, such as the discussion of pets). Let's try to maintain that focus.

That's my two cents worth (at vastly inflated value, I'm sure)...

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Hey Doc,

EXACTLY my thoughts.

Sam,

Lets discuss it via email - I respect your opinion quite a lot, and I agree with you that sports hunting is not always ethical, but the problem is who defines what constitutes "sustanance" hunting? Who sets the limits?

1. The two public points I want to make are:
- Hunting is an absolutely vital part of ecology. The matters of responsibilty, ethics and sustainability should fall on the shoulders of citizens - not government agencies who are detached and ineffectual.

You said:

Quote:

Frankly I would like to see sports hunting banned completely. I think it is unconscionable for humans to take high powered weapons and attack animals strictly for sport. If you have no access to food and hunting is done to sustain life, that is a different story.

After waiting way too long, the British finally banned fox hunting. It was considered "good sport" by the aristocracy until public outrage finally got the government to ban that outrageous, sickening pageant.

Which leads into,
2. Soon after the right to hunt was seceeded, guns were declared "purposeless", as they had no "sporting purpose", and now are almost entirely impossible to get a hold of. How would things be different here, as the control methods employed in Britain have notoriously moved West into USA.

This is why Sunstein bears more threat than positive change in my opinion.

I apologize to everyone for stirring the political pot here - not my intention. If anyone wants, we can collaborate on an ethical treatment of animals thread, or Sunstein thread.

Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

That's a great point Bones. (LOL!, sorry, call it a term of endearment, Doc. Laughing

I am an avid and passionate hunter. And to be honest, when I read the comments I was ready to knee jerk and give both barrels. But, I decided that it's best to NOT post when angry. I know myself better. 

This thread is truly one of my favorites on the internet. What I would have done would have ruined it. I'd like it to be active throughout 2009. We've got Aaron, Mike P, you, Dogs, R_Eddy, larry, et al (sorry about who I missed) all giving great advice and spinning up great exchanges. If I or someone else derails it over a passion then it's a loss for everyone. 

That said, back on topic. 

General question for the thread: What's your take regarding my active INVESTMENT in popular calibers of ammunition? Do you think this money would be better off invested elsewhere? I do buy gold, silver, and $CA. 

Let me know please. I am putting a substantial amount of money into this aspect and I am starting to think it's time to slow down or stop. 

 

Muchos Gracias. 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

BTW Doc. Had your "two cents" been denominated in US currency then it would have been on it's way to being worthless. Tongue out

But reading your posts you seem like a pretty smart fella' so I'm figuring that you back your "two cents" with gold bullion.

In which case your opinion is as good as gold. And judging from your last post, it is. 

 

I know folks. Ga' head. Throw your shoes at me. Lame joke. I just couldn't resist. Tongue out

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread
ccpetersmd wrote:

Before anyone responds further on the Sunstein issue Aaron raised or the sport hunting issue Sam raised, please consider not responding at all. It's not hard to imagine how the ensuing discussion could careen out of control with endless prattle on either side of both issues.

I suspect many have found this thread to be a very useful discussion of firearms. It has been so because of the excellent insights of Aaron and others, and their willingness to share their expertise, but also because the discussion has generally been fairly well contained to that purpose (excepting a few quick diversions, such as the discussion of pets). Let's try to maintain that focus.

That's my two cents worth (at vastly inflated value, I'm sure)...

Chris,

You are correct. This is a specific thread and should remain so. Aaron has contacted me via email and he and I will respectfully discuss our different perspectives off-line so as not to distract from the very useful information provided in this thread. If anyone else would like to discuss my (or Aaron's) points of view off-line, I invite you to email me at your convenience.

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Pete,

Quote:

General question for the thread: What's your take regarding my active INVESTMENT in popular calibers of ammunition? Do you think this money would be better off invested elsewhere? I do buy gold, silver, and $CA.

I think it's a great idea.
Ammunition over the last 6 years has increased to the tune of 300%, and I can't imagine that it'll decrease beyond this point, and there is a very real possibility that it'll become less available in the future.

Personally, I pick up boxes of common calibers any time I get a chance... The great thing about them is if I never need them for investment, they offer a good bang for your buck ;)

Other might have a different plan, but I personally buy:
-5.56mm/.223 Remington
-.308 Win./7.62x51
-.45 ACP
-9mm
-12 Gauge
-.22 Long Rifle

Those are generally the most affordable and common calibers available today, and I think they represent a good, if consumable investment. They're divisible, useful and if you reload, reusable. Good brass is always a good investment!

Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Aaron, Pete:

...they offer a good bang for your buck.

In which case your opinion is as good as gold.

You guys are just too punny for words!  Laughing

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Aaron.

.30-30 is still one of the most popular rifle calibers in America, regardless of the merits of other cartridges. Everywhere I go, they are the ONE hunting cartridge that is always out of stock. So when I see a stash at a store, I buy them first. Here in Florida they are harder to come by than 9 mm rounds. 

 

Sam, I was expected to be pelted with tomatos. Surprised

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

SG

Thank you for that recommendation.  Enfield is way further away than the SigArms factory but far from a plane trip.  I'll look into it.

MGhandi

I came to this site the long way around from my researches in gold, silver, and economic history.  I'm a bit of an amateur expert on the subject these days and have endeavored to put whatever nonessential cash I have in solid, tradeable, fungible forms.  Generally that means gold and silver coin, but recently the same thing has occurred to me - one of the biggest arguments against 'gold' as an investment is that it is useless (you can't eat it...).  I believe ammunition is a very good multi pronged approach to a commodity based investment.  You can use it (if you reload, reuse it), trade it, and in some unforseen case where neither of those is a possibility, the copper content alone might let you at least break even on your buy (given copper demand still exists in said unforseen future).  I might suggest that you still grab a few gold and silver coins, but if you've got an emergency stash of those, get stockpiling ammo.  And let me know how to buy some from you :)

Sam, Aaron, Christopher, and all

I would be interested in a 2nd amendment general thread (or is there one and I've missed it?).  Issues of the legality of hunting don't necessarily fall under that but they're certainly arguable as it undeniably influences firearm rights issues.  Some of the most erudite and thought provoking writing I've ever read has come from 2nd Amendment advocates and I think it's an important issue to see from a lot of different directions.  

For the record, I've spent most of my life as a vegetarian (not currently) and some as a vegan and was a peta sympathiser in college.  I also believe in personal responsibility and personal liberty and do not appreciate a governmental system that legislates what they believe is right for me.  I believe a government is tolerable if it arbitrates the issues of personal property and violations thereof, but I am loathe to support its banning of pretty much anything.  

A law is a measurement of an action, generally considered morally wrong, against which it is acceptable to use the sanctions of violence (paraphrased from Murray Rothbard).  Ideas such as this need to be considered more gravely by our "lawmakers" before they so capriciously set them.

Thanks again for all the thoughts

Daniel

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Aaron. This is what I have purchased. Rank in volume is in parenthesis. How would you rank them? 

9 mm(1)

.40 S&W (4)

.45 ACP(2)

.22 LR(3)

12 Ga. 00 Buck, birdshot. deer slugs(10)

.30-06 (sounds like you're a .308 guy. Damn you! Don't you know that the ballistics are nearly equal but the .30-06 is a cooler looking round? :-) (9)

.30-30(8)

.308 (Did I tell you that I have these too. hee hee) (7)

7.62x39(6)

.223 Remington. (5)

 

Ivory. Thanks for the FB. 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread
MGhandi wrote:

Sam, I was expected to be pelted with tomatos. Surprised

I would have - except my garden isn't in yet. Stick around for the harvest in the fall and I'll see what I can do!  Wink

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread
ivoryjackal wrote:

Sam, Aaron, Christopher, and all

I would be interested in a 2nd amendment general thread (or is there one and I've missed it?).  Issues of the legality of hunting don't necessarily fall under that but they're certainly arguable as it undeniably influences firearm rights issues.  Some of the most erudite and thought provoking writing I've ever read has come from 2nd Amendment advocates and I think it's an important issue to see from a lot of different directions.

Daniel

Daniel,

I'm not adverse to discussing 2nd Amendment issues on a separate thread if the moderators would find it an acceptable topic. From what I've seen on this thread, however, I think most of us will fall on the same side of the issue (in favor of gun control).

JUST KIDDING - DON'T SHOOT ME!  Yell

Seriously, I think most of us on this thread think alike in the right to bear arms as individuals. Perhaps starting a separate thread would elicit some opposing points of view?

Why don't you start such a thread using your perspectives as an initial point of discussion? It's been my experience on this site that almost all members are able to express different points of view within the confines of civilized and respectful debate.

 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

What a fantastic thread, and I haven't read all of it yet. Thank you Aaron and everyone for providing such good info.

Personally, I have been struggling with purchasing firearms for quite sometime now. For most of my life (30+years) I have trained in various martial arts such as muay thai, judo, jeet kune do, kali, and penjak silat. And I guess because of that I never was really interested in firearms. But now that I have turned 40 and have a child, I guess I feel less confident in my ability to protect my family, and my only other option seems to be firearms. 

My struggle is specifically this: How do I use firearms to protect my family without killing someone? At my core, I know that I could never kill someone. It would destroy me to do so.  But I also know that if someone was going to harm my family and I did nothing to protect them, that would destroy me also. I have looked into non-lethal weapons such as tazers, but I don't feel that they are as practical as firearms. 

Even though my brain says that I should purchase firearms and take the necessary training, my gut won't let me do it. It just feels so wrong to me. It makes me physically ill. I have tried 4 times to purchase a gun, and each time I ended up walking out of the store when I hear some punk-a** kid talking about what gun he has and what he would do to somebody that broke into his house. I realize that everyone that owns a gun is not like this and the demeanor of this thread proves that to me.

With all my heart, I do not want to own firearms, but if I don't have the means of protecting my family and my property effectively, then what good is it to prepare for the hard times ahead if it all could be taken away by 2-3 bubbas with guns.

Has anyone else struggled with this? If so, please give me some guidance. Thank you for your time.

Jeff 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Sam. Don't waste food! If you feel you must "bomb" the comedian then roll some federal reserve notes up into a ball and toss them at me.

But for God's sakes, not vegatables. Tomatos have value. Dollars don't. 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

I'm with Aaron on the stock up. I don't have any delusions about fighting WW III out of my garage, nor do I have any desire to do so. But ammo is another tangible asset that holds its value, particularly in times of uncertainty. Even better than gold, it does something besides just sitting there. That is, ammo is essentially capital in the truest form - it is basically required for certain productive activities (hunting) as well as defending other stored assets.

Brass is an alloy of mostly copper and a little zinc. I can't think of a longer term fundamental reason for copper prices to decline. In my view, copper is a third tier semi precious metal, a better store of value than lesser valued metals and in the tier below silver.

Like Aaron, I buy when I can and when there is stuff on the shelves...there have been some shortages here lately, particularly of .223. My calibers (5.56, .22, 9mm, and 12 ga) all fill somewhat different roles, so I don't clearly see one as much more important than the others. If I had to pick, then I'd go with the 9mm as first priority. I think defensive type rounds, particularly Hydra Shok, might hold their value (or appreciate) the most in the coming years.

I know Aaron is a fan of sticking to common calibers and concentrating on a few and I generally agree. But just to make a counterpoint as food for thought: If there were shortages of a certain type of caliber, for whatever the reason, then it would make a lot of sense to have multiple calibers so that you're ready to go. There is something to be said for diversification reducing risk. Again, I don't think it's a huge issue, but something to consider.

Mike

 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

jade.

Buy a shotgun and use salt loads. If a 12 Ga is too much for you then a 20 Ga with light powder loads would do just fine. I'd back shots 3,4, and 5 up with 00 buck in case the salt fails to stop the attacker(s). Then you HAVE to use lethal force. It's them or your family. 

Texas farmers used to use these during the depression I am told to ward off people trying to steal from their land.

Not guaranteed to be non-lethal but the odds are highly in favor of not being so. (that is compared to real lead shot).

It is EXTREMELY painful I have read. Imagine having a blast of salt chunks embedded in the flesh of your abdomen and chest. 

Which is the point. The entire point of defense is not to kill the attacker, but to incapacitate him. Unfortunately for the perp, lethal force is often the quickest way to accomplish that. 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread
MGhandi wrote:

Sam. Don't waste food! If you feel you must "bomb" the comedian then roll some federal reserve notes up into a ball and toss them at me.

But for God's sakes, not vegatables. Tomatos have value. Dollars don't. 

L O L!

OK - you make an excellent point. I'll hold on to the veggies and look around for some worthless pieces of paper to throw your way.

Let's see - I'm sure I left my wallet around here somewhere..............................

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Jage,

I've studied a number of martial arts. In virtually all of them, except judo or aikido, your goal after blocking is to strike hard enough to end the encounter, often a killing blow.

How did you study some of those martial arts without facing this reality?

When I was studying a form of kung fu, one of my fellow students was attacked in a nearby city. He broke the assailant's arm and ended the fight. My si fu (teacher) was angry at him because the recommended counter to the attack he experienced was to blind the opponent, not break his arm.

Whether you agree with that criticism or not, martial arts are not for those with hesitations about hurting folks to protect themselves or their family.

 

SG

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Jeff,

First off - welcome to the thread, and I appreciate your position on this topic.
Gandhi makes an excellent suggestion, about rock salt.
My own sweet granddad got a load of it swiping wine as a kid. Then got has A$$ paddled when he got home. This was during the depression. Said it stung to high heaven.

As to lethal force, keep in mind that the human body is extremely resiliant and only about 1/5 people who are shot with a handgun die. I'm not suggesting this to make it "less" intimidating or more "friendly", but in general, most people over-estimate the risk, and therefore want no part of an armed adversary.

If you do have to shoot that person, statistically, they will probably flee and survive the injury. That said, you do need to prepare mentally for that moment, should it arise.

Daniel,

There are two other threads on firearms here that stand out in my mind, some of which touch on legality, reasoning and philosophy of arms. I'll link them, feel free to start a new thread, or continue to comment on these:

Alternative to Guns: http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/alternatives-gun-arsenal-post-peak-america/12588
Buying for fear of Losing: http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/buying-guns-fear-losing-right-bear-them/8423

Mike, Pete,

I'd rate importance in a different way:
1. Primary pistol caliber Ammo for Training
2. Primary pistol caliber ammo for Defense
3. Primary rifle caliber ammo for Training
4. Primary rifle caliber ammo for Defense
5. Shotshells, in proportions of 25/5/1 (25 rounds of birdshot to every 5 rounds of buck to every 1 slug)
6. .22
7. Various ammunitions that are on sale.

Also, keep in mind that a greater disparity between quality exists between Military arms and Civilian arms.

A lot of the imported surplus ammunition is not made well. It uses poor burning, dirty powders, use steel cases (which are easier to break in bad weather) and use poorly balanced projectiles.
This is especially true of brands like Silver Bear, Wolf, Brown Bear etc.

The pistol caliber rounds similarly have poor penetration, are dirty (very important with a pistol, since the gas is right in your face, and the big cloud is a "target indicator") and are often inconsistent with their charge... I've had wolf short-stroke my .45 on several occasions.

That said, those makes are perfectly acceptable for "training", though they're a risk not worth taking on the off chance you ever need to "fight" with a rifle or handgun.

Especially for an "LA Riot" or "Katrina" type situation, you want clean burning powder that won't get in your face or give you away, true projectiles that fly as straight as possible, and strong cases that won't break in the chamber, leaving you with a hard stoppage to clear.

Cheers!

Aaron

JAG's picture
JAG
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 26 2008
Posts: 2492
Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

SG,

I guess to answer your question, I feel that I have a lot more control of the situation with martial art skills versus using a firearm. I have no qualms about hurting someone if they are trying to hurt me, but there is a big difference between breaking an arm and killing a person. Most higher martial arts skills allow the practitioner to minimize the damage inflicted and control the situation. This is true of even the "deadly" combat-oriented arts such as the indonesian penjak silat and kali. I have confidence that if I got the upper hand in a fight, I could finish it without doing permanent or lethal damage to my opponent. I am not so confident that I could do this with a firearm.

Aaron,

Do you feel like your firearm training can allow you to "control" a situation with non-lethal force, no matter what the situation is? Do you think its possible to use a lethal weapon in a non-lethal manner effectively? I need someone with significant firearm experience to shed some light on this for me. Thanks for your input...Jeff

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