Dealing with thieves

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bientum's picture
bientum
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Dealing with thieves

In a SHTF scenario, honest, good people would starve.  What should you do about protecting your supplies for your family?  Some people may resort to stealing.  What if you had a visible garden?

thc0655's picture
thc0655
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Welcome bientum/theft of supplies

Theft of your supplies is a major issue.  Check out at least these three posts in the "What Should I Do" section. There are others that bear on this subject too.

Protecting Yourself Against Crime and Violence (thc0655)

Fortifying Yourself And Your Home Against Crime (thc0655)

Preparing for Economic Collapse (FerFAL)

Protecting supplies you have in your home is an easier problem to solve than protecting crops and livestock you are growing outside your home. I'm smack in the middle of a large urban area and on my property there isn't even a cup of dirt in which to grow things and no access to sustained, direct sunlight so this isn't a problem I currently have to face.  But from the experience of others it seems if you are going to be relying on food you raise yourself and theft is an issue, then you'll have no choice but to guard it 24/7 and guard it armed. Obviously, a team or community-wide effort will be required.

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bientum
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What about beggers?  Its a

What about beggers?  Its a moral question.  There would be innocent, honest, nice people that are hungry.  Do you think that in such an event, people could be recruited to assist in growing food, rather than turned away?

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Unlikely To Be A Good Idea
bientum wrote:

What about beggers?  Its a moral question.  There would be innocent, honest, nice people that are hungry.  Do you think that in such an event, people could be recruited to assist in growing food, rather than turned away?

Bientum

How much land do you have? How much more of a labor benefit would be derived from taking a person or a family in, if they are extra mouths to feed and bodies to warm, but they don't have the skills or the stamina, the experience or the enthusiasm?

How about trust? It makes more sense to stick with family and very close friends. After all, what's to stop them from betraying you, selling you out to outsiders, stealing from you when you are not waching, or killing you in your sleep (or when you are hunched over trying to milk a cow or under a tractor trying to make repairs) to make out with your supplies?

If you offer food or assistance to beggars, they're likely to come again. Or tell on you to organized criminals (whether voluntarily or under duress), or attack you themselves, knowing what you have. If you don't offer food, it's possible they might do the same. So you have to find the right approach, and a way to make sure you, your spouse, your children, and any others with you, are not too vulnerable to such appeals for mercy that they can't keep safety and security foremost in mind.

Note: As you may have read about elsewhere on-line, being isolated out in the country isn't necessarily the best thing. If you have fields, a garden, and animals to tend to, you'll be exposed to someone from a distance with a high-power rifle and scope. If you are wounded, your cries of pain may draw others in your house to come out to help you. If your home isn't of reinforced brick or masonry, your doors and walls (siding, insulation, drywall) can be penetrated by bullets and your roof is vulnerable to arson.

Poet

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I have pretty much planned

I have pretty much planned for my family's needs and left some room for my neighbors.  I do plan, however to have several thousand dollars available when things start collapsing, and if I have the time go purchase 50 lb bags of rice, flour, and cans of Spam.  Like I say, I do have neighbors and my back yard is walled in.  I have doubled and replaced all outdoor lighting and put in an updated security system.  I have never believed in guns, but I did purchase one.  My plan, basically, is to work amically with as many people as possible, but if the security situation got out of had, I want to be prepared.

I am, also, keeping on hand extra seeds and supplies for gardens that I can co-op with my neighborhood.  None of this has been discussed with my neighbors as they would think I was crazy.  So I guessmy plan is to share as much as possible.

I am not wealthy or anything, but had just enough money to be able to plan this way since I had gotten out of all my debt..

Best to all,

Ernest

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Re: Location & Starvation

Hi, OK I agree.  It would be better to bunker down in an inconspicuous place, not a farm.  It would be best to hide away for a few months and then come out to farm in a secluded place.  

Its just scary that millions of innocent people would be left helpless.  There is no choice though if they could not be fed. 

How do you think people in developing countries that already live with self sufficiency will cope?  For example, many in Papua New Guinea already walk and live off subsistence farming.  Their lives would barely change whilst developed worlds would dieoff. 

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Neighbours

Hi Ernest, regarding neighbours and community, it is possible that there could be a mass change of thinking.  The idea of an extinction event could become institutionalised if it hits mainstream news.  Its possible that 90% of people might start growing sweet potatoes and potatoes in their back yard with a small water tank.  Potatoes are the only crop that are not so prone to theft from wildlife.  How do you think this would change things?  Survival like this could cause even more crime as most people would be alive for longer and hungry. 

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bientum, I completely agree

bientum, I completely agree with where you think things could go.  That is why I have made more preparations than I list on here.  I have a Naturapathic  Doctor who believes people will react well.  However, she just moved to Vermont from the south because she felt things would go better there.  Honestly, I think the world has become so materialistic that we could easily have a nuclear war.  Aren't things wonderful?  After what I learned from the Carzine debacle, I emailed my broker to have the few stocks I have left registered with the company directly.  I do not want them in broker name.  The Europeans seem to want to make the world collapse they are having so much trouble settling things.  If we make it to a public understanding of Peak Oil we'll probably be lucky.  I just feel like anything could collapse the financial system.  So I'm going to get my Westie, give him a hug, and go for a walk. Best Wishes, Ernest

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Disappointing, typical actually

 I am watching the entire 3 hours and 20 mins of this very informative DVD (iso file).

 However I am very disappointed in the title of this thread and the responses thus far. Since we have never solved the racist employment/wealth disparity problem in America. Those (White) of more means will flock to rural areas of America leaving mostly minorities to suffer in urban areas or under threat of murder in order to protect your flock/family/property (Aftermath of Hurricane Katrina).

 My goal is to protect THEM (minorities) from the likes of YOU (foolish greedy/selfish White Males), likely never to be welcomed back into the cities in which you abandoned instead of tried to build community and help create a world of love and non-violence. Since violence is how White Men have gained anything on this planet, it should be of no surprise that in a worst cast senario of a crashing economy he would instead HOARD and then protect his property with deadly force.

 While there is no where to hide, I plan on relocating OUTSIDE of America because I know what would happen in a crashed economy, minorities would become the target of all sorts of trumped up charges and vigilanty justice (Aftermath of Kartina). In the mean time I will try and see if I can come up with an idea or ideas for places like South Los Angeles don't become suffering wastelands. Which I sort of doubt would happen anyway, but none the less they need to depend less on Governments and more on skills they can develop. Also since most people in South LA own their property, re-imaging that area is not as hard as it sounds I don't believe.

 I know what I said in the paragraph two is already happening (scapegoating of minorites) so you can't deny that. You may personally not habor any ill feelings but in the end you'll support such hate speech, fear mongering as most people will.

 This is why I support the Venus Project because Western Society needs a reboot after 300 years of unfair practices and using differences in skin color or embracing religion to keep the Status Que.

[Moderator' note:  This post is a violation of the forum rules.  Appropriate corrective action has been taken with the poster.]

 

 

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ao
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djfourmoney wrote:  I My
djfourmoney wrote:

 I My goal is to protect THEM (minorities) from the likes of YOU (foolish greedy/selfish White Males), likely never to be welcomed back into the cities in which you abandoned instead of tried to build community and help create a world of love and non-violence. Since violence is how White Men have gained anything on this planet, it should be of no surprise that in a worst cast senario of a crashing economy he would instead HOARD and then protect his property with deadly force.

 

Sounds like you're every bit the racist as those racists you are condemning.  I'm flagging your post.

 

ewilkerson's picture
ewilkerson
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djfourmoney,  I am not

djfourmoney,  I am not going to opine on your views, but in the long run Earth can only support around 1 or 1.5 billion people.  That is going to mean some bad things along the way, but that's probably over 100 yrs.  In the short run, I've tried to put aside food and plan to buy more for people in need. 

Poet's picture
Poet
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No Need For Your Protection, Thank You

DJFourMoney

Look, as a minority living in the United States, I am definitely aware of the extent of racial and religious discrimination and problems here in the U.S. But we don't need you to tell us your goal is to protect US (minorities) from the likes of people like yourself. If your goal is "love and non-violence", you need to stop your anger and bigotry.

All societies and cultures (Western or otherwise) have good and bad parts. They all have something to teach, whether positive lessons or cautionary tales. The same goes for people, and it's important to reinforce and encourage their positive aspects and emphasize shared common values. Talking so scornfully and hatefully can only serve to insult people, turn them off from your message of  "love and non-violence", and view you with derision and disgust.

I am very aware that in times of economic distress or chaos, people seek scapegoats and may look to racial, religious, or political minorities. But the answer is not anger or hatred or blame. The answer includes preparation, awareness, and prudent self-defense measures.

But most importantly the answer includes building community and building on common values - making friends, building strong relationships, and being a part of a community that cares about you by you also caring about your community. That community includes people of all racial, religious, or political backgrounds.

This isn't about being a Quisling or compromising one's principles. It's about standing up for positive common values and speaking out with reason and principle about hatred and discrimination as applied to anyone - including the majority.

Here's an example: Few Whites respect Al Sharpton. Why? He only seems to get involved with his vitriol when a perceived injustice involves a Black person, and he seems to hate Jews and Mormons, etc. Does this mean he's respected less, or viewed with derision and disgust whenever he comes on television by a large number of people? Would he garner more respect if he were to speak out forcefully when an injustice also involves a White person, when a Black person wrongs a White person, or when it turns out a Black person made something up involving a White person? Would that mean that when he does speak up about an injustice done to a Black person, more people would listen and support him? You bet! And not that I'm a fan of Obama, but why do you think Jesse Jackson didn't become President, but Barack Obama did, even though Blacks make up only 14% of the population? A message of inclusion was a big part of that.

Poet

djfourmoney wrote:

 I am watching the entire 3 hours and 20 mins of this very informative DVD (iso file).

 However I am very disappointed in the title of this thread and the responses thus far. Since we have never solved the racist employment/wealth disparity problem in America. Those (White) of more means will flock to rural areas of America leaving mostly minorities to suffer in urban areas or under threat of murder in order to protect your flock/family/property (Aftermath of Hurricane Katrina).

 My goal is to protect THEM (minorities) from the likes of YOU (foolish greedy/selfish White Males), likely never to be welcomed back into the cities in which you abandoned instead of tried to build community and help create a world of love and non-violence. Since violence is how White Men have gained anything on this planet, it should be of no surprise that in a worst cast senario of a crashing economy he would instead HOARD and then protect his property with deadly force.

 While there is no where to hide, I plan on relocating OUTSIDE of America because I know what would happen in a crashed economy, minorities would become the target of all sorts of trumped up charges and vigilanty justice (Aftermath of Kartina). In the mean time I will try and see if I can come up with an idea or ideas for places like South Los Angeles don't become suffering wastelands. Which I sort of doubt would happen anyway, but none the less they need to depend less on Governments and more on skills they can develop. Also since most people in South LA own their property, re-imaging that area is not as hard as it sounds I don't believe.

 I know what I said in the paragraph two is already happening (scapegoating of minorites) so you can't deny that. You may personally not habor any ill feelings but in the end you'll support such hate speech, fear mongering as most people will.

 This is why I support the Venus Project because Western Society needs a reboot after 300 years of unfair practices and using differences in skin color or embracing religion to keep the Status Que.

 

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Moderator Jason
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Racism

[quote=djfourmoney]  My goal is to protect THEM (minorities) from the likes of YOU (foolish greedy/selfish White Males) . . . violence is how White Men have gained anything on this planet. [/quote]

djfourmoney,

Racism is not acceptable in our posting community.  Hatred is not acceptable.  Our forum guidelines confine discussion on these forums to a particular type: respectful, fact-based discussion to create constructive ideas which relate to the 3E's.

Everybody (of every race) is an individual person with their own life.  The heightened respect for the individual which is required by civilization demands that we be particularly hesitant to impute negative characteristics to individuals because of their membership in a group, especially a group to which they did not choose to belong.

Racist arguments are disrespectful to every member of a community - of every race - who strives to act as an individual with honesty, integrity, and kindness towards others.

The destructive underpinnings of your line of thinking are embodied in its complete lack of constructive outcomes.  Ultimately all of us must live together in this world.  Broad generalizations about groups of people, true or untrue, are unhelpful because we do not relate to one another as large groups.  We relate to one another as individuals.  If we are not willing to give others a chance as individuals - if we are branded in some way by accident of our birth - then we have not progressed beyond the level of thinking where power and privilege should be distributed based on heredity and not individual merit.  This rolls back the learning of the Great Enlightenment.

And what is the ultimate result of separating individuals into groups?  Division. Violence.  The fragmentation of society into warring factions. Conquest.  Oppression.

While our normal course of action on this site is to provide several warnings before banning a user, there are some situations when a single post reveals such a disconnect between our mission and the intentions of a user than an immediate and permanent ban is warranted.  This is one of those situations.

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me.

Sincerely,
Jason, moderator

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Aaron M
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Back to the Topic

Hello all,

First off, Poet, I was really glad to see your contrbution above. While the problm of racism is real, the problem of poverty is color blind, and thus, thievery will not impact any single ethnic, social or religious group - we all need to think about this issue.

So - dealing with thieves - my take is this:
You will probably never have the opportunity.

*Most* thieves are opportunists. As someone who's been the victim of thievery many times in my life - you'll quickly realize that thieves are generally privvy to your coming and going, some knowledge of your possessions and unless especially desperate or cunning, they will probably steal from you while you're nowhere to be found.

If you do catch a thief in the act, their first inclination will be to run like the dickens. They're not lookin for a showdown - again - unless there is some personal vendetta. The cost/benefit analysis doesn't favor sticking around.

So, thieves - your best defenses are passive. Good locks, and the understanding that they only work against honest people.
A good safe, *very* well concealed hiding places that you absolutely do not talk about. A high wall, and a good disposition.

Flaunting wealth or assets is not only looked upon as a taunt to the impoverished, but it reveals you as a potential mark.

If you do catch someone - don't drop your guard. No matter how you approach the situation.
If you try and talk sense - don't drop your guard.
If you try and conact authorities - don't drop your guard. Keep in mind, this person has already found their way onto your land, and into your vehicle or home.

Thievery is effective because there's not much you can do about it once it's happened.
Your best bet is deterring it by appearing impoverished, being modest and keeping your cards close to your chest.

Cheers,

Aaron

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