Crisis Simulation-Day 17: Justice

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JAG's picture
JAG
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Crisis Simulation-Day 17: Justice

Warning: Some readers may find the following scenario and discussion disturbing. Reader beware.

(Note: This is the fifth installment in a series of threads designed to simulate an unfolding crisis. The purpose of the threads is to determine a "plan of attack" that could be executed quickly if such a crisis were to occur. For more information see Crisis Simulation - Day= -1, Crisis Simulation - Day 1Crisis Simulation - Day 2, and Crisis Simulation Day 10 - "Is There A Doctor In the House?")

                                                                                    Crisis Simulation Day 17: Justice

 

Simulated News:

  • During the past week, there have been numerous reports of people’s pets going missing. Some people are speculating that pets are being taken by outsiders for food.
  • On the night of Day 14, the “Perry’s” house down the street was broken into by a group of outsiders. Mrs Perry and her daughter were raped, and all five members of the family were brutally killed in cold blood. The suspects also stole their remaining food and supplies. 
  • Last night, three destitute outsiders were captured after attempting to break into the “Linder’s” house. The neighborhood rallied to the defense of the Linders and managed to disarm and subdue the attackers. The Linder’s youngest girl recognized a necklace that one of the outsiders had in his possession as belonging to the Perry’s teenage girl.
  • This morning the Sheriff took custody of the perps and a large mob of citizens seeking justice has formed in the town square. 

Simulated Circumstances and Events:

  • You still have food, but your remaining matches/lighters were inadvertently used up by an unattended child of your extended family. Your propane ran out last week, and you have been using wood fires to cook and boil water with. Now you have no means of starting a fire.
  • Your significant other is starting to mentally break down with the stress of the crisis. He/ she begins to disregard their responsibilities, doubling your workload. He/she begins to express deep hopelessness and frequently talks about ending his/her suffering and the suffering of your children.

 

Based on these events and scenarios, please answer the following questions:

 

  • What is “justice” for the apprehended attackers? In the absence of a functioning judicial system, who determines and executes justice in this situation?
  • What could you do to secure your home/homestead/farm and family against attack? Be specific.
  • How are you going to reliably start a fire over a long period of time?
  • What do you do when a member of your family breaks down and ceases to contribute to your family’s survival?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I figured I would end this series on the last thread, but its been a little boring around here lately so I thought I might extend the discussion a bit more. Thanks in advanced for your contributions, and sorry for emotional drain of the subject matter.....Jeff
Full Moon's picture
Full Moon
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Re: Crisis Simulation-Day 17: Justice

 Jeff ,      You are going to get us in so much trouble with this one .    We can not say here what the attackers deserve and not to many years ago they would have got it.  But politically correctness will not allow it for now.

  For the security of your place .....is exactly why  there is safety in numbers ,  those you can trust .   You will have to have enough to set out guards.   Of course this is going to have to mean you are bigger and more prepared than those coming after what you have . Don't you think ? So best bet is to not look like you have diddly  and be prepared to die fighting .

   Give a shoestring and stick to the 6 year old boy . They can start a fire with anything . Let them practice now.

  Funny thing   my husband is dinking around   on making a wood gas-burning  something or other .  Said he can make gas to run a generator  or old truck on  dead  tree limbs ???   He is the guy that can't spell squat  but I believe he can eventually figure something out there.  I am willing to bet it is not as easy as he thinks or someone would have already figured it out .

  The weak link in a family has to be carried . Try to strengthen them ,Most people are good for something . They need to have a purpose and believe they count .  You would need to make sure they can not harm you , the kids ,or themselves .  You can not throw loved ones away like trash just because you do not think they are worth the effort .   Well many  do I guess . I have been married 30+ years many times have not carried my end of the bargain and have not been thrown out on the street .           Now if it is abandonment  you need to just let them go .

 Probably not what you wanted to hear and you will get many other Ideas here .     I believe it is important to think on these things .... purpose in your heart to stick to what is right  .  Not be caught unprepared in situation ethics .

 

A. M.'s picture
A. M.
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Re: Crisis Simulation-Day 17: Justice

Hang the bastards in the center of town.
How's that for PC?

Under the circumstances, there is no one to "rehabilitate" the offenders. There is no court of appeals, no tax-payer funds to support and feed them while they're in captivity and absolutely no reason to keep them alive.

If the evidence is there, hang them.
If the evidence is not, or there is evidence that they only looted the dead folks' home, adjust punishment accordingly.
I'd be very wary about punishing or maiming people and then turning them loose.

They know who you are, where you are, and what you're up to.
Combined with a grudge, you've got a recipe for disaster, unless you've got an exceptional defense in tact already.
Hanging these dirtbags will send a message.
Not hanging these dirtbangs will also send a message.

My first order of business would be to shut down access to the town proper.
Once we enter the collapse, there's no more time for charity or sweet dreams in which everyone gets along.
Restricting access will cut back on this kind of nonsense, and disallow interlopers precious information about your communities strengths and weaknesses, food supplies, manpower, defenses and so fourth. A healthy amount of Xenophobic behavior is going to be necessary.

Tolerance of murder, rape and theft will die with the society it victimized.

As for fire, keeping one going is the best way to have fire available. If you haven't got a wood stove, it's a sturdy investment. Explain to the child that resources are precious, and that using them unnecessarially now will preclude you from using them when they're needed. Kids can't get used to the "consumer" mentality.

As far as the spouse goes, support is the only answer. Specifics will depend on the couples and their ability to communicate. The general rule "The harder a person is to understand, the more they need understanding" applies.

Generally the person who starts pushing others away is trying to cut ties first. Don't let it happen.
Explain objectives, accompany the spouse on their tasks so you can help accomplish things together. Maintain good discussion and dialogue. Avoid fatalism and doomspeak. Avoid being overly cheery or optimistic.

With regards to security, a voluntary city watch would have to be formed. Rotating shifts of 8 hours serving in a variety of positions:
For the inexperienced - Guard duty, Foot patrols inside the city and at security check points. For every 3 days of work, 2 days should be spent training (1 day training - 3 days working - 1 day training)

For the Moderately experienced - Leadership over the same positions with opportunities to act as a QRF (Quick Reaction Force)

For the Combat Experienced - Rotating shifts on a vehicle mounted QRF that can be at any given point in an equadistant period of time. Time not spent responding to calls should be spent training, exercizing or training those who are less experienced.

Cheers,

Aaron

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EndGamePlayer
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Re: Crisis Simulation-Day 17: Justice

Wow - I haven't checked in for days and things sure went to he|| fast. Guess town people have gone zombie faster than I imagined!

We spent Days 4 - 6 on a journey to collect family and friends - traveling at night and the cloud cover helped. We actually had several modes of transportation to choose from - 4W truck, snowmobile w/ sleds and bikes with motors and trailors. The 4W truck was stocked with supplies 8 months ago and that's what we used. We brought back 8 people (only 5 were in the plan but then - how do you say no to a couple with a kid?) and some just got outta their hold-out just in time. All the "meeting places" were outta town and those that were to meet us needed to carry enough water and supplies to last until we arrived. We ran into some zombies scavaging at our 2nd stop but managed to avoid them. The kids there were cold and well fed but seemed "shocky" from lack of electronic entertainment. The previous diets they had of high sugar and pointless carbs are starting to show as they with-draw and the next few days meant filling them with less food but of higher value. I'm hoping they get into helping with grinding grain for making bread but since they got here - they seem to be with-drawing from the life they left behind and the young kids keep asking if they can go home soon. The parents have their hands full just keeping up a level of entertainment. The parents are struggling to keep up appearances of everything is normal.

The journey back was planned so we could swing around the main roads and plant tire deflating items around our perimeter. We want those coming our way from towns to be at least 5 miles on foot to get discouraged from going too far from the towns. We planned on several layers of defense that are mainly deterents so we don't actually have to deal with any zombies.

The matches being gone is a problem if the fire goes out but for now - we keep a smokeless fire going during the day and heat our food & water on it as needed. Cooking has been the basics of making bread in the morning, frying eggs from the hens for breakfast, ramen noodles for lunch and what the pantry supplies for the supper meal. We have about 9 months of food for the number of people we have (I planned on a yr supply). Hopefully I have planned for enough seeds of what we need to put up for next year if the crisis continues. If I planned right - we'll be eating fresh pea pods, broc, spinach and chard by mid-April.

The neighbor 4 miles down the road and his wife came down on horseback to check in but we didn't let them see the extra people here. We told them we hoped this wouldn't last long and packed plastic grocery bags of eggs, dried veggies and some potatoes and one for another family further down. I told them if they saw "zombies" headed out here to let us know via the CBs we all have for field work (old farmers never throw out anything) and they said which channel to listen to and who was still left down the road -the dairy farmer who's cows were drying up because the power milkers wouldn't run. I told them we'd go down there with our dc pump system and could maybe do 1 girl on a battery but not much else. The other 120 cows would have to go dry. When I get there, I'll suggest he let the cows out to the pasture before all the water in the barn is gone even though his cows have never been outside. To get there - I'll put the milking pump, battery and tank on a bike trailor. The motorized gas bike can go about 80 miles on a gal of gas. The electric bike will only go 12 miles on a charge and doesn't have the power of the gas but at least you can't hear it coming.

The neighbor talked about his kids and was worried about them. He said he was takling to them just before everything "went dead" and was thinking he should get a group together to go into town on horseback to bring them back. I said "count me in" and he said "you got guns here?". "Sure - we got coyotes so I wouldn't be without one" (or more I thought to myself). He also said his brother who farmed down the road went south for the winter (a snowbird) and he didn't know if he would see him and his wife again and they had 3 kids lving in town so there might be more than his kids to search for. I asked if he knew where they were and he said his own kids will know where their cousins live . . so I guess we're giong on a wild goose chase.

I want the other men to stay here . . . and now I have to get the batteries charged for the pump pump and CBs. Tomorrow we'll go help milk and drop off the milk around a few other farms as well as bring some home. I'll hang out at the neighbors to talk over plans.

Wish us luck.  EGP

 

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rheba
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Re: Crisis Simulation-Day 17: Justice

This stuff is really over the top and IMHO not at all helpful. What are/were you trying to accomplish in this exercise? But, by the way, wood gassification is a pretty cool thing!

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DrKrbyLuv
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Re: Crisis Simulation-Day 17: Justice

Hello,

First, I agree with Full Moon and Aaron, PC stinks.

In Jeff's scenario he mentions that "the Sheriff took custody of the perps and a large mob of citizens seeking justice has formed in the town square."  Fortunately, Sheriff's have a great deal more power than other law enforcement officers.  Sheriff's can authorize deputies and in emergency situations where the legal system has collapsed, I think they can quickly handle prosecution and sentencing.

Unfortunately, we have examples of how quickly chaos and lawlessness overcomes a society.  The Sheriff could deputize a large army of volunteers who own and are competent with firearms.    In Jeff's scenario, it would be typical for tough measures to be implemented to protect the safety of the citizens.  For example, looters and know criminals are generally shot on sight.  That may sound cruel but remember, most "emergency" deputies are not trained in apprehending dangerous criminals.  Their safety is at stake.

Larry 

A. M.'s picture
A. M.
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Re: Crisis Simulation-Day 17: Justice

Rheba,

The main benefit is taking your brain from neutral, and putting it in "1".
Even if you don't get anywhere, you're at least rolling on some considerations.

Meditation on crisis is a time proven method of coping pre-emptively.
It's been taught by militaries, strategists, warriors and strategists for thousands of years.

I, for one, applaud JAG's effort to change the tone around here from political/economic bickering which is literally *useless* and actually get people troubleshooting problems.

Cheers,

Aaron

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Lbart09
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Re: Crisis Simulation-Day 17: Justice

EGP & Sheeple need to go into the movie business!  Wow, lots to think about.

We are 7 miles from nearest town and our immediate neighbors within a mile are all competent, self-relient country folk who I will probably be turning to more for help than them coming to me.  

My main concern is security.  Depending on what I have, if I wanted to share anything I would leave it at the front gate and post a sign that anyone I didn't know was not welcome on the property.  We don't have automatic weapons and only one or two rifles, the rest being shotguns & hand guns.  I would protect my property (which would end up being my life in these scenarios) with them.  But I don't see how the few of us at our place could patrol and fight off a gang of say five armed men, all more or less sociapathic and hungry.  I doubt that we would be the hardest target around.

The idea of property protection is what I would like to hear more ideas about.  In a scenario from The Road, there is not enough ammo and weapons to fight off, for any period of time, the lame brains who've been shopping at the gun shows and stocking up for the last two decades.  A deer rifle these days and a Saturday night special are soooooo outgunned.

About the rapists, murderers -- couldn't they just be confined in jail?  Hanging and other violence, though deserved, would just create more blood thirst IMHO.

 

 

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Re: Crisis Simulation-Day 17: Justice

As for justice, I'm largely with Aaron on this one.  Maybe one difference though.... if the evidence points to them being guilty, I would propose the option that, as criminals awaiting final sentencing, we use them to do any needed hard labor for the community for an indefinite period.  Focusing primarily on food production or water distribution that will keep the town alive.  At least until such a time that they can be sentenced properly, whether that's done by a newly established local justice system or by the old justice system if it recovers (won't hold my breath but all things are possible).  On a practical level we don't know the full extent of the damage to the country or how quickly the basic infrastructure will be back in working order (again not holding my breath but not discount the possibility either), and if the state and federal officials re-establish their presence in the area at some future date we don't want to leave ourselves open to charges of vigilante justice or actions going way beyond reasonable defense of self or the community.  Especially if it means such officials decide they need to maintain a dominant, permanent presence in our town because they say our actions show we can't be trusted on our own.

But if there's no food available to keep them fed as they work until the next harvest or if there is simply no manpower to spare in watching over them as they work, then I agree with Aaron.  Exile would likely create a future problem for us or other surrounding communities, and one can argue that execution might be a more appropriate sentence than exile involving death from starvation.  I would just hope that the sheriff (and any local justice officials) would be the ones to deliver and carry out the sentence instead of the mob; allowing the mob to do so themselves could start a nasty precedent.  Mob justice often gets too heated to look at available evidence in a careful objective manner, and we don't want people hanged on suspicions or circumstantial evidence.

- Nickbert

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Re: Crisis Simulation-Day 17: Justice

Security:  Aaron covered community security already, so I'll just focus on personal home security.  Our living situation in these circumstances would likely be a standard single-story home on a small dead-end street in town, with 4 adults and 1 infant.  Unfortunately, among us only my father and I have self-defense experience and know how to handle and use firearms, and my father might have a hard time with any extreme physical activity if intruders managed to break in.  First priority would be to block up or reinforce potential entry points and set up a watch for all hours of the day... at any given time 1 adult's only job is to monitor the immediate area and wake the house if potential trouble is seen, and rotate in 6-hour shifts (moving to 8-hour shifts if someone is incapacitated for any reason).  Also as part of the watch system set up simple action plans for 1) when potential trouble is seen, 2) when forcible entry is attempted, and 3) when intruders have entered the house.  Second priority would be to familiarize the other adults in handling and shooting a firearm; my 22's would be a good training tool to start, and I have plenty of ammo for that.  If community watch/defense similar to what Aaron proposed is established, that would be a good method for further training and practice not only for them but for my father and I as well.  "Moderately experienced" as Aaron put it would probably be a little generous in describing us; my father's experience dates back to Vietnam and my own experience is limited to practice in class and the range, so we have plenty to learn too.  Third priority would be convincing immediate neighbors to adopt a system of alarm and response where upon hearing the agreed upon alarm signal, say something as simple as banging large pots together forcefully and repeatedly (better keep the kids away from they pots and pans!), neighbors could arm themselves and respond to the alarm.  Fourth priority might be taking in a few friends/neighbors who could contribute to household defense and other more mundane, but no less important, tasks like expanding the garden or digging a root cellar.  Fifth priority would be setting up reinforced wood or metal shutters for the windows with firing slits, and possibly also set up a position with some not-too-obvious cover on the roof of the house (the only way we'd get full view of the surrounding area from our house).  Reminds me of one former coworker who thought it'd be neat to make a "roof shingle" ghillie suit... he admitted it'd be damn heavy and largely impractical, but still an amusing idea. 

Fire:  I have some flint sparking tools on hand, including two that combine magnesium blocks with flint inserts and a steel striker.  From past experience I did discover starting a fire with those was significantly harder than I first expected, but they do work.  If for some reason these tools are unavailable (been stolen or lost), I'm familiar with more basic methods even if I'm not well-practiced with them.  Though really, I'd think this is where community comes in, and you just ask one of your community members if they can help by donating some hot coals.  Then once the fire is started find a routine to keep it going continuously, or at least find a proper receptacle for keeping some of the coals hot and smouldering through the day. 

Breakdown of a loved one:  No easy answer there.  Just try to always have someone there to listen and support whenever possible, and hope in time they find their way out of their despair.  Perhaps find a distraction or some activity they enjoy (preferrably group activity) that will keep them occupied in some way and take their mind off of the stress for at least part of the day.  Periodically give them some time alone but don't let them isolate themselves completely.  I'm largely out of my element in such a situation, so I don't have much to offer here.

- Nickbert

 

thatchmo's picture
thatchmo
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Re: Crisis Simulation-Day 17: Justice

I'm only prepared to address the fire starting issue at this time.  Buy a handful of those magnesium fire starters from the camping store- about $6 each and good for many uses- and make yourself a jar of fire starters.  A bunch of cotton balls wetted down with almost anything flammable-kerosene, oil, even olive oil I think- will light off with the magnesium sparks instantly and burn long enough to get a fire going.  Try it out.  You can pack a bunch of them in a prescription bottle and with the mag sparker, you're in like Flint.  Pun?  Keep this kit in your glove box.  Aloha, Steve.

Well, OK. the other stuff-

Security- let's face it the only real security is heading off alone into the wilds-good luck- or getting it together with your neighbors and community BEFOREHAND.  Again, good luck.  But as I've posted before, it's probably the most important task ahead for all of us.....rugged individualism survival in this scenario is probably a myth for most of us.

Justice- let the Sheriff decide.  That's why he or she gets the big bucks!  But they must be supported in their decision.  Though if the Sheriff decided to let them go, you could follow them out of town if you felt that strongly about it....

Family breakdown- I think Aaron's response to Rheba's query is a good start.  It doesn't hurt to talk of things such as this senario to your loved ones in a non-scary fashion if possible.  The scenario we're working on here is possible, but so is getting hit a car tomorrow and becoming quadraplegic and blind.  Which is more scary?  No one is guaranteed a sweet tomorrow....the next 20 years will be unlike the last 20 years.  Fill in the blanks....Aloha, Steve.

jneo's picture
jneo
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Re: Crisis Simulation-Day 17: Justice

 

Eye for and Eye.

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jneo
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Re: Crisis Simulation-Day 17: Justice

 

Eye for an Eye

JAG's picture
JAG
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Re: Crisis Simulation-Day 17: Justice

Thank you all for the excellent contributions to this difficult subject matter.

As far as "Justice" is concerned, I must concur with Aaron, and exactly how he worded it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a peace loving man, but if civilization as we know it were to break down, I wouldn't hesitate to throw my ideologies aside in an effort to survive. Lets just hope that it doesn't come to that.

Thanks again everyone for your input....I'm off to purchase multiple means of starting a fire.

leweke1's picture
leweke1
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Re: Crisis Simulation-Day 17: Justice

Fair and speedy trial...probably followed by digging some 24"x72"x72" holes.

Could make a nice solar cooker out of available bathroom mirrors....and maybe get a fire going with that magnifying glass I use to take splinters out of my kids' hands once in a while...

 

leweke1's picture
leweke1
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Re: Crisis Simulation-Day 17: Justice

Project for this afternoon....see if I can light a candle with my magnifying glass.....

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