conspiracy fundamentalism and anticonspiracy fundamentalim

15 posts / 0 new
Last post
mihaibarsan's picture
Status: Member (Offline)
Joined: Jan 7 2009
Posts: 15
conspiracy fundamentalism and anticonspiracy fundamentalim


A combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose

Look at 2 stances that appear so frequently on this forum:

1. "Everything is a conspiracy, nothing in this world happens for any other cause"

2. "There are no conspiracies, everything in this world can be explained by completely different causes"

Even if you demonstrate that a whole series of events is not the result of a conspiracy, still the next event can be.

Similarly, if you demonstrate each event in a historical series did result from a conspiracy, still doesn't mean the next event will. 

Inductive thinking does not apply to historical events. Society is way too complex for that.

That said, it's fair to assert that many if not most big historical events have happened as result of conspiracies, and I'm talking here about official history. For instance: French Revolution, American Revolution, Russian Revolution.

But luck, mood of particular people and masses, personal genius and many other factors contribute too.

In fact for most cases is most probably a combination.

So when looking for instance at the current crisis, Obama election, Iraq, 9/11 etc it is fair to ask yourself what is the role of the conspiracy factor (could be from 0% to 100%) and what the role of conspiracy-independent factors.



jbaird's picture
Status: Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 28 2009
Posts: 1
Re: conspiracy fundamentalism and anticonspiracy ...

In a sense we all conspire by sharing the atmosphere, the water, etc.

Do events make it into history at all unless they are shred (conspired in) by enough breathers/swimmers/drinkers?

the lucky among us are not impacted by historical events, but live undisturbed lives.

pir8don's picture
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 30 2008
Posts: 456
Re: conspiracy fundamentalism and anticonspiracy ...

welcome jbaird, I hope you like what you have found here and stay. I agree about luck.


If you are saying that significant events are placed somewhere on a conspiracy continuum then I agree.

What often seems to happen is that, for those events that have a high % conspiracy component (those that are high on the conspiracy continuum) that they often move along the continuum over time.

Like most people, I watched 9/11 in disbelief and could conceive of no conspiracy that would have an elite subject their own citizens to such horror. I remained a skeptic till very recently. I am no longer skeptical and place that event high on the continuum. This transition has been wrought in me from heart to the head.  My heart wanted to believe that people could not do this to themselves. Now my head is now forced to believe by the evidence. 

A certain loss of innocence is involved. I hope that my basic faith in humanity is not lost but my head wants to protect my heart. So I am left more cynical and skeptical.

What you seem to be mentioning are black swans. It turns out that some black swans were grey swans and that we can learn something something from them (fractal geometry). That learning doesn't deny the fallacy of inductive reasoning. The difficulty is in naming swans accurately.



7 billion people can be wrong, very wrong

Damnthematrix's picture
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 10 2008
Posts: 3998
Re: conspiracy fundamentalism and anticonspiracy ...

My definition of a conspiracy is a plot that remains hidden.  Thus the French/American/Russian Revolutions do not fit the bill, they OBVIOUSLY came out in the open, in a very very big way!!!  Those were PLOTS, not conspiracies.  In fact (I'm French born) I was always told to believe that the French Revolution, which started with the storming of the Bastille, was generally spontaneous...  the people simply had had a gutfull and went ballistic.

A conspiracy needs to kept secret.  Thus the fewer people get involved the better.

The whole 911 thing WAS a conspiracy, but only inasfar as Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld ALLOWED it to happen.  There may have been a few more 'in the know', but that's it in a nutshell.  YES they wanted to scare the shit out of people to justify their terrorism plots, but they did NOT need to demolish the buildings.  In fact had they KNOWN all those buildings were going to come down, they just might have unleashed the jet fighters needed to shoot those planes down...

As evil as those bastards are, I cannot contemplate them actually, physically, organising demolition teams to install explosives..

Peal Harbor was clearly a conspiracy.  THAT only came out recently, at least for ME.  There are tell tale signs, like  removing the valuable more modern ships out of Hawaii just before the Japanes Navy arrived....


joe2baba's picture
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Offline)
Joined: Jun 17 2008
Posts: 807
Re: conspiracy fundamentalism and anticonspiracy ...


of course your well reasoned and evidence rich arguments have me totally convinced. not to mention your tone of authority

pir8don's picture
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 30 2008
Posts: 456
Re: conspiracy fundamentalism and anticonspiracy ...

Hi Mike

My conviction re 9/11 came from watching the zeitgeist movies. It took me 3 days to download them by torrent. I know you have limited bandwidth and Internet but if you haven't already it is well worth getting hold of at least the first one. The second (addendum) is less significant. Following my watch of this movie I am nearly 100% convinced that 9/11 was not just allowed but orchestrated.



7 billion people can be wrong, very wrong

Damnthematrix's picture
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 10 2008
Posts: 3998
Re: conspiracy fundamentalism and anticonspiracy ...

I have a full copy right here.....  I think most of it is fanciful crap...


pir8don's picture
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 30 2008
Posts: 456
Re: conspiracy fundamentalism and anticonspiracy ...

Have you a reference to a good critique of the film?



7 billion people can be wrong, very wrong

Damnthematrix's picture
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 10 2008
Posts: 3998
Have you a reference to a good critique of the film?

Zeitgeist: In the Spirit of Paranoia

I like this one very much....  says it all for me, bang on in every way...



The Intro

movie begins with a trippy kaleidoscopic image set to hypnotic music -
we are being inducted into something. 25 seconds later we are thrust
for 40 seconds into scenes of artillery fire and explosions, rapidly
cut to ominous chromatically descending music with driving percussion
synched up with the explosive action. For the next 2 minutes we take a
macroscopic journey, again with trippy, hypnotic music, through the
cosmos and earth seen from space that then transitions into sky, clouds
and sunlight before going into a micrcosmic cellular world and a series
of very inventive morphing line-drawings that describe an evolutionary
journey from single-celled organisms through plants - and then fish
becomes lizard becomes mammal becomes monkey becomes human. Human
develops opposable thumbs, learns to write 1+1=2 and then hey presto!
the Holy Bible appears, double presto! a folded America flag drapes the
bible and now a plane drifting lazily, dreamily across the top of the
screen - right into a WTC tower.

Cue the ominously descending music with percussion synched to explosions! Flight of the Valkyries anyone? (I love the smell of napalm in the morning!) Forty
more seconds of battleships, artillery canons and sundry explosions
intercut with 911 footage and we dissolve on the collapsing tower. Now
a full minute of dramatic orchestral  music swelling around bloodied
children, women in shock and trauma, Aushwitzian mass graves filled
with emaciated concentration camp corpses, the famous Vietnam execution
photo - but now in living video, gruesome shots of children with
recently blown off body parts, or in hysteria near the bodies of dead
adults, a full 6 seconds of a body in free-fall from one of the WTC
towers, mothers crying on U.S. flag-covered coffins, soldiers tearfully
saluting, a little girl in a little black funeral outfit  doubled over
over in iconic grief at the graveyard, face in her hands, hearse and
flag in the background.

What an opening sequence. I would be
impressed. I would be sympathetic - I hate war and the motives that
often lie behind it. But I feel emotionally manipulated and have a
sense of dread at the paranoid grand narrative that is about to unfold
as the title "Zeitgeist" appears on the screen. Perhaps you have heard
of this internet movie phenomenon. It is all the rage in alternative
"spiritual" circles and manages to cobble together a poor understanding
of mythology that deconstructs the silliness religion while seemingly
giving credibility to the un-silly subject of astrology (of course!), a
recycling of the (by now standard) elaborate and highly improbable 911
conspiracy theories, and a fight-the-power paranoia about the
nefarious "international bankers" in the shadows behind, and profiting
from, every war in history, while manipulating the rest of  us ordinary
folk through religion and media to keep  the world's population
enslaved via debt and taxes. The opening sequence all but yells - "Wake
up motherfuckers!"

Now come the first (uncredited) spoken
words: " The more you begin to investigate what we think we understand,
where we came from, what we think we have been doing, the more you
begin to see that we have been lied to. We've been lied to  by every
institution, what makes you think for one minute that the religious
institution is the only one that's never been touched? The religious
institutions of this world are at the bottom of the dirt. The religious
institutions in this world are put there by the same people who gave
you your government, your corrupt education, who set up your
international banking cartels, because our masters don't give a damn
about you or your family. All they care about is what they have always
cared about, and that's controlling the whole damn world. We have been
misled away from the true and divine presence in the universe that men
have called God. I don't know what God is, but I know what he isn't,
and unless and until you are prepared to look at the whole truth and
wherever it may go, whoever it may lead to, if you want to look the
other way or if you wanna play favorites, then somewhere along the line
you're gonna find out you're messing with divine justice. The more you
educate yourself, the more you understand where things come from, the
more obvious things become and the more you see lies everywhere, you
have to know the truth and seek the truth and the truth will set you

Yeah, I know. Try reading it again. What is this un-named
but authoritative sounding person actually saying? Powerful rhetoric,
vague paranoid assertions, the invoked uber-power of divine justice and
the true presence of God...

Next comes a credited text quote,
from an "Egyptologist" named gerald Massey: "They must find it
difficult, those who taken authority as truth instead of truth as

The Greatest Story Ever Told

One of Zeitgeist is a bit of a heartbreaker for me, because it  does a
very poor job of unfolding two subjects I hold very dear - 1) a
critique of religion and 2) an exploration of mythology. Unfortunately
it covers both these subjects rather poorly and, even more
unfortunately, links them to a seeming elevation of astrology... Well
of course, religion is just silly, but astrology, now there's something
respectable, right?

The thrust here involves disproving the factual historicity of the story of Jesus (earth-shattering,
I know) and a well-done extrapolation on the fairly common archetypal
mythic themes in that story. So far so good. Yes - the story of Jesus
Christ is a re-telling of mythic themes common to several other stories
around the world.

But this section fails intellectually for three reasons.

in it's insistence on defining a myth as "something false that people
believe is true." While this definition applies to one kind of myth - 
like, say, all redheads are passionate and prone to anger or that there
are more murders on full-moon nights,  brief study of pre-eminent,
world-renowned mythology scholar Joseph Campbell's work will reveal his
refuting of that definition as it applies to the study of actual
mythology  in the interest of a deeper analysis of it's psychospiritual function.

film-makers would do better to draw a distinction between the innately
human activity of myth-making as a poetic story-telling, psycho-cultural
activity on the one hand,  and religion on the other  as the
literalization of myth that does indeed have the power to control
people via superstitious fear.

Second in making the case that
the Christian myth is "stolen" instead of recognizing that all myth is
a) in an evolving and synthesizing process and b) that the archetypal
themes in mythology originate in the human psyche and so always share
certain deep features while differing in surface cultural and
geo-specific details. But of course this is part of the paranoid
worldview or "zeitgeist" the film embodies -  there is a "them" who
have nefariously "stolen" from the pagan myths to construct the
Christian myth in order to control "us.' What's difficult about this is
the partial truth wrapped up in poor reasoning and driven toward a
false and totalizing conclusion. It makes it seem true, while in fact
it is a "myth" in precisely the way that they have chosen to define
that word.

Third and perhaps intellectually worst of all is the
astrological overlay. Now of course it is fascinating to understand how
the ancients used the archaic pseduo-science of astrology to link their
brilliant early astronomical observations to fanciful archetypal images
in the constellations and the supposed predictive powers of this
activity. It is really interesting to see how the Christian symbology
is an extension of many of those astrological ideas (which of course
should come as no surprise) - but the overall tone is slanted toward
the popular counter-culture idea that there existed a truly divine
and powerful pagan religion prior to Christianity that has been taken
from us for the sake of control. As if we should nostalgically long for
our astrological pagan roots and throw off the mantle of Christian

Ah yes, i hear a matriarchal Utopian society of
yore around the corner here - one in which equal rights circa the 20th
century and Woodstock-era free thinking, free love and ritual
celebration inhabited an intuitive and enlightened anarchic social
context in perfect harmony with other tribes and the sacred cycles of
the earth...

The problem is this was simply never the case.

In fairness, this section is beautifully made, is filled with fascinating mythic, astrological and religious correspondences
and makes a lot of good points about the horrific violent and
oppressive history of religion. Unfortunately it does not extend it's
debunking gaze to astrology and makes the mistake for the viewer of
perpetuating the false link between accurate astronomical observations
and completely nebulous astrological beliefs.

Again it's the
partial truth that kills me. Yes, of course religion has been a force
for control. Yes, Christianity does demonize a healthy relationship to
the natural world, our bodies, sexuality, and ritual practices that
engaged direct personal experience of profound altered states. But the
way out of religious delusion does not lie in romanticizing a culture
of pre-religious sacrifice, superstition and quaint pseudo-scientific magical thinking. In Wilberian/Gebserian/Spiral dynamics terms that is a leap out of the mythic frying pan and into the magical fire! In Integral/SD terms this is the classic Mean Green Meme retro-romantic mistake.

Part Two: All the World's a Stage

the segue (again uncredited); "The religious myth is the most powerful
device ever created and serves as the psychological soil upon which
other myths can flourish."

What other myths you may ask? Well the "myth" of 911 of course!

The credited segue comes in the form of a segment of  a JFK speech about the threat of the Soviets contexturalized
to make it appear that he was talking about some other secret cabal -
so now we have an implied throughline and emotional resonance between
the Kennedy assasination and 911 - it's a conspiracy wet dream!

now we jump from the manipulation of the masses via religion to the
manipulation of the masses to believe the patently false story or myth
of our times, which is this:

" The 911 Myth: 19 hijackers,
directed by Osama B. Laden, took over 4 Commercial Jets with box
cutters and, while evading the Air Defense System (NORAD), hit 75% of
their targets. In turn, W. Trade Towers 1,2 & 7 collapsed due to
structural failure through fire in a "pancake" fashion, while the plane
that hit the Pentagon vaporized upon impact, as did the plane that
crashed in Shanksville. The 911 Commission found that there were no
warnings for this act of terrorism, while multiple government failures
prevented adequate defense."

As with the opening of Part One, this initial gambit is very flawed.

concocting this official looking statement, the viewer is guided toward
words in the description of events that already contain hints of the
coming counter-argument. This description is designed as part of a "straw man argument" that will create a convincing impression through manipulation, weak evidential links and poor reasoning.

worse, they pepper a lot of the familiar footage with a few shots of
people jumping to their deaths before the towers fell - one in
particular that shows a group of several jumpers in mid-air. This is in
particularly bad taste, and it remained until now part of unspoken
protocol not to use those images - but the film-makers succeed in
creating the emotional effect they are after. If you can get people
into a re-traumatized state it is easier to get them out of reason and
very interested in assigning blame and fantasizing about revenge - it's
just how our nervous systems and brains work - the Bush government did
it after 911 (which of course they massively exploited) to get us into
Iraq, and now (with a different agenda) this group is using the same
technique. Bummer... Ironic too!

Here I have to say that I have
great sympathy for the 911 conspiracy crowd. They are made up of many
sincere and intelligent folks who are rightly appalled at the corrupt
power structure, at the lies that got us into the Iraq war. They are
aware of the ulterior motives that always play a part in war and of the
past "false flag" operations that actually have occurred to pull the
wool over an unsuspecting public's eyes. They feel manipulated and
ripped-off, and I share many of those sentiments, but the 911
conspiracy theories are just not very convincing in the cold light of
day. Doubt my sincerity and radicalism if you must, but none other than
MIT scholar, speaker and author Noam Chomsky,
rabid and astute critic of American foreign policy, called "the most
dangerous intellectual alive" by the Washington Post will usually dismiss 911 conspiracy questions with two or three brief sentences as to their implausibility before moving on to more worthy targets for his analysis.

is not a single prominent intellectual or political figure anywhere in
the world involved in this 911 Truth movement and you have to ask
yourself why. Proof of U.S. government involvement in an evil and
elaborate black ops plot to pull off the biggest act of manipulative
violence in the history of history would be incredible ammunition for
Bush's many vociferous critics at home and abroad. For Bush and his
cronies, this would be undeniable grounds for war crimes indictments,
impeachment and criminal prosecution, perhaps even a glorious execution
in a Texas prison after a lengthy stay on death-row. Why has no-one
with any serious clout added their voice to this narrative?

Quite simply because it takes a lot more to add up to a serious case for this statement:

Truth: Criminal Elements within the US Government staged a "False Flag"
Terror Attack on its own citizens, in order to manipulate the public
perception into supporting its agenda."

than this:

* emotionally convincing cobbling together of anomalies, oddities, anecdotal inconsistencies,
* loudly stated assertions from random "scientific experts,"
* true observations about U.S. foreign policy and self-serving two-facedness,
far fetched scenarios ( it wasn't even a plane that hit the Pentagon,
the plane that hit the towers wasn't a commercial airliner, there had
to be explosives in the towers for them to collapse that way, Building
7 was the center of operations so they had to demo it too, Giuliani was
in on it etc etc)
* and endless loose-ended questions that seem to imply paranoid conclusions


Truth: Criminal Elements within the US Government staged a "False Flag"
Terror Attack on its own citizens, in order to manipulate the public
perception into supporting its agenda."

Hmmm - all of this, huh?
The 2 - 3 thousand dead in the towers, the hundreds on the planes, the
destruction of billions in property, an elaborate conspiracy involving
many participants, manipulation of the media on a grand scale, keeping
the conspiracy secret for this many years, in spite of all the
agitating. All for what? To allow the Neocons to go into Iraq and
pursue the rest of their agenda?

Now I know the Neocons are
dangerous,  manipulative, totally convinced in the rightness of their
agenda, with few scruples about dishonesty - but this is just
outrageous. It would be the most daring, cynical, evil, complex plot
ever attempted by anyone anywhere. The degree of complexity itself
makes the odds so unlikely as to be damn close to zero and also suggest
that even if one of the conspiracy variations were true, keeping it
secret would be well-nigh impossible - especially for a government that
displays extraordinary incompetence in so many areas and puts such
idiots in charge of such important tasks.

What makes the
conspiracy believers able to go along with these highly improbable
ideas, when the official details of the story make so much more sense?

indeed. One dictionary definition i found says: "The characteristic
thought, preoccupation or spirit of a particular period."  The movie
does succeed in capturing a particular part of the current zeitgeist,
but just like pieces like What the Bleep, The Secret
and the plethora of 911 Truth documentaries - it's  more lunatic fringe
than cutting edge. These ideas are not marginalized because they are so
subversive and empowering, they are marginalized for an altogether more
basic and mundane reason - they are silly and ill-considered. They simply do not match well with reality.

a full and thorough debunking of the most popular 911 conspiracy
theories, see this Popular Mechanics cover story which consulted with
300 experts in multiple fields to contrast the facts with the myths.

Don’t Mind The Men Behind The Curtain

section continues the recipe established so far and turns up the heat
even further: take a pile of disparate facts, remix history with an
industrial strength blender, stir in a gallon of paranoia and sprinkle
with some legitimate observations about the appalling cynicism and
scary implications of our post 911 landscape.

The title of this
section continues the paranoid assertion that there is a “them” behind
the curtain – a despicable illuminati who are manipulating “us” and
everything else to their own ends. This conspiracy premise sounds
plausible, especially given the rapidly configured and reconfigured
multimedia bombardment of facts, figures and thematic interpretations
coming off the screen. The “international bankers” are behind all war.
The underlying implication is that there is a long line of unbroken
conspiracy passed down from father to son that is not only manipulating
the circumstances behind every war and then profiting from it, but that
is also inching itself closer and closer to a totalitarian world
government in which all citizens will be controlled by microchip
technology and so on… 911 is the central event that all of this is
arranged around. Because of the success of the staged 911 event, the
media (under the control of the men behind the curtain) have been able
to sell the public lies that have enabled the Afghanistan and Iraq
wars, wars which, just like Vietnam were never meant to be won – but
will be dragged on to make money for the international bankers. 911 has
enabled the government to systematically erode our civil liberties in
the name of the so-called “war on terror.”

What’s again so hard
about this position is that it takes some accurate and appalling
observations about what has happened since 911 under the current neocon
government and then draws an imaginary straight line backwards to the
attack (and even further all the way to WWI) and forward to a Phillip
K. Dick science fiction future of nightmarish proportions. In this
grand narrative the entire history of the world is a story of us
against them in which a singularly evil force is pushing onward towards
it’s terrible objective by any means necessary. 911 becomes the
dramatic and final culmination of this plot that will now allow total
control to the men behind the curtain.

This is so flawed. I have
to applaud the makers of Zeitgeist for their subversive verve, for
their dedication to bringing truth to light, for their chutzpa, but
listen – if you want to talk about the relationships between religion,
911, and the history of totalitarian agendas, there are a few important
parts of the story that are being left out. Let’s take the little
detail of Islamic fundamentalism and the actual reality of terrorism,
for a start. Let’s bring in the presence of both fascist and communist
dictatorships – real dictatorships on the world stage and America’s
relationship to those forces. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, not to
mention the problems in Africa and South America stemming from
colonialism and continued by the Cold War and the superpower’s rush to
control governments and resources around the world. The power of
Christian fundamentalism in the United States over the last 30 years
and its influence on the political dialog.

It’s just so much more complex and layered than this particular zeitgeist asserts.

a shamelessly manipulative portion of part three, we see direct
parallels being drawn between Nazi Germany and the current
administration: 911 = the Reichstag, quotes from Hitler mixed up
with quotes from Bush, pre-emptive war maneuvers. It is all rather
chilling, but so heavy handed – and ultimately not on target.

not forget that other chestnut of conspiracy thinking – taxes. Taxes
are this terrible, illegal exploitation of the American people? This
adolescent attitude is barely deserving of a response. America has a
lot of problems that scream for attention, is very imperfect and, as
the most powerful nation in the world has a big foreign policy shadow
and a real history of playing the good guy while doing some really
sinister things – and using the media and education system to
perpetuate that illusion, but I challenge the privileged makers and
consumers of this film to live for a year in any of the hundreds of
failed states on the planet and see what life without the
infrastructure created by taxation is actually like.

There are
real problems with so many things. This administration is without doubt
the most corrupt bunch of criminals ever to be in charge of the United
States. There is a real list of issues that need to be addressed, not
the least of which is the Patriot Act, the removal of Habeus Corpus,
the stranglehold of Free Trade on the first world poor and the third
world sweatshop slaves, the massive influence of big money on politics,
the dissolving separation between church and state. But there is not a
secret cartel of international bankers pulling the strings behind the
curtain. That is an act of global shadow projection that suddenly
allows “us” to be all good victims and “them” to be the bad guys. Now
there are bad guys of course and there are also victims. The call to
critical thinking is important, very important. The critique of the
media and American education is valid. The analysis of big money’s war
profiteering is valuable. The problem is that what it all adds up to
when structured with this paranoid and emotionally-based intent is
something that does the details and indeed the truth an incredible
dis-service – and that’s the “zeitgeist” we can do without.

pir8don's picture
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 30 2008
Posts: 456
Re: conspiracy fundamentalism and anticonspiracy ...

Thanks Mike

I guess I have responded to the emotional manipulation of the film and called it interlect.  It would have been more prudent of me to wait longer and investigate further before reaching a conclusion. I had looked on wikipedea about the film but they did not link to any detailed critique that I found. Thanks for the education.


Now that Feb is finished I can change bumper stickers at will.Smile


 Anyone can trade for what they want, only fools trade for what they need. 

CB's picture
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Mar 18 2008
Posts: 365
Re: conspiracy fundamentalism and anticonspiracy ...

Mike - a worthy critique in a few respects, but using Chomsky's opinion and a piece in that bastion of peer-reviewed critical thought Popular Mechanics (the People Magazine of industry and technology) is simply replacing one set of poorly constructed argments with another... Much of it is just a rant.

investorzzo's picture
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Nov 7 2008
Posts: 1182
Re: conspiracy fundamentalism and anticonspiracy ...

You have to take from more than just one individual event in order to come to the conclusion of conspiracy. Perhaps the most telling is the attacks from government on individuals who seek the truth.  Or the constant message that this is "national security" I have garnered the conclusions I have with mutliple youtube videos; books; authors interviews, interviews of those at the scene and any other resources to come to the conclusion that there is a conspiracy of those in power who have become to powerful and in order to keep thier agenda going, are willing to kill one or many to achieve the insanity of their vision.

  What you find in all of these is a message that we know better than you and you small people do not need to know what is best for you and the world. Wether they kill here in America or some other country, they will kill without hesitation. All threw history tyrants have killed those that stood in the way of those who question. Millions have been murdered! So why is it so hard to believe they can sacrifice thousands in 911 or a few in political assinations? 

 Whether the Kenndy's were killed for the dollar or another reason, we must assume it was because they threatened the status quo. Just as Martin Luther King was murdered. All three show huge evidence of our own government involvement. Now we can argue till were blue in the face, but it's most important that you investigate the argument for yourself. I have and the our government is one who murders at will. Whether we like it or not; men and women are used to for wars, profits, power.

God says, seek the truth and you shall find it. I may not be the smartest here on the board, with your intellectual arguments. But, I chose to open my eyes and look at the cold hard facts or best information out there and come to some kind of conclusion.  If you start tying together the assinations in our cournty and out and the bankers, politicians, money, press, laws and border security, they all seem to have one end in site. To control society. To keep the minons in line and asleep to what is really going on in the world. And from what I can see they are doing one splended job!

Follow the money trail if you want the truth............... 

Damnthematrix's picture
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 10 2008
Posts: 3998
Re: conspiracy fundamentalism and anticonspiracy ...

So, CB, Zeitgeist is peer reviwed?  And it's NOT a rant?  Ever heard of objectivity?

I think the reason he picked on Chomsky is because you'd almost expect Chomsky to go along with a conspiracy from the neo-cons, whom he detests.  But he doesn't.  So a critical thinker would ask "why?".  That's all.  You don't have to agree with Chomsky to be a critical thinker.... 


PlicketyCat's picture
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 26 2009
Posts: 680
Re: conspiracy fundamentalism and anticonspiracy ...

Do I believe that there is, and has always been, a conspiracy of the elite (the wealthy and powerful) to subjugate and exploit everyone else? YES.  Aspects of this are continually exposed throughout history. I think maybe these little leaks are actually part of the conspiracy, because paranoia is good for controlling people as well... but, hey, maybe I'm being paranoid Sealed.

Do I believe that W and his numbnut buddies orchestrated the 9/11 attacks so that they could make a power grab? Ummm, NO. Someone else in the elite (either in this or another country or some combination) might have; but Monkeyboy doesn't have the glial cells to pull that one off. Although someone much more intelligent and Machiavellian could easily have set up the scenario and fed the "leaders" bad info and advice. That's much more likely IMO.

But I do have to step back and realize that just because things may not have been random doesn't automatically make them a conspiracy... they just aren't a coincidence. Yes, some people may be able to exploit a logical conclusion if they are/become aware of an impending pattern; but are they really conspiring and manipulating things to make it occur? Probably not.

So, for me, I guess it's more important to balance things on the scale of Coincidence and Conspiracy... and most things with the system are more of a collusion not to stop something that they could profit from, rather than an orchestrated conspiracy to make it happen. But the Banking Cartel, the Power Cartel, and the Agri-corp Cartel are definitely high on the Conspiracy spectrum (maybe even with each other at times) with the government almost always in Collusion, but not necessarily direct Conspiracy (except maybe the IRS!). 

CB's picture
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Mar 18 2008
Posts: 365
Re: conspiracy fundamentalism and anticonspiracy ...

Mike - I said the author was replacing one set of poor arguments with another by using the Chomsky anecdote and citing a puff piece in a popular magazine to rebut the 9-11 story. While I do agree with many of the embedded points, the overall tone is of somebody blowing steam. One last beef - having actually worked in a country that really does have a serious problem with terrorists that happen to be Islamic I get a little tired of hearing people bring that up in relation to America.

I enjoy your posts - don't take offense.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Login or Register to post comments