Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

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Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the role that God plays in "connecting the dots" strictly within the context of the Economy - Energy - and Environmental topics originating here at ChristMartenson.com It is not a religious discussion or place to win souls, but to discuss the connection of God to the Crash Course.

I ask you to relate the subjects of Faith/God/Crash Course, in an honoring way, that advances our understanding of the 3-E's, so we can prepare to make the world a better place for our families.There is no reason to get personal or insulting, we are all in this boat together.

Let me start by saying I am not a preacher or theologian, just a concerned and pragmatic contrarian adviser. I am here to learn and share, with great respect for the work Chris Martenson has given us.

As a foundational structure, the Bible has over 2200 references to money, which is more than on faith. It has influenced prudent stewartship since the days of Joseph, (the first hedge fund manager). It offers wisdom on financial matters that has stood the test of millennia, as true as gold. And has prophecy that some are saying is coming true now.

Gods divine wisdom was critically important to the Founding Fathers of America, and to early Presidents according to the biographies and history I have read. God blessed America, however, in the past century America has grown to worship money and consumer luxuries replacing God with Plasma TV and SUVs as the purpose in life. Think about it, Government/Banking Cartels do not want a nation full of Amish ideals, they wanted to create a consumer culture that would buy stocks and borrow from banks, always on the edge of losing their jobs or homes.

I would argue that the Global financial crisis -  is to a large extent, a moral crisis. The indignation tone underlies most of the news stories and forum posts; I hear in so many ways that the people are being lied to by politicians that are looking after themselves and their banker bosses.

My studies lead me to suggest that a turning point was the promotion of Evolution as a substitute religion called Secular Humanism for people who reject God and put their faith into an unproven and un-scentific theory. Like Chris's works here, the masses are taught something completely different in schools, and have no idea how blind and foolish they are in the bigger scheme, and that goes for me to - I have taken my 'World View' glasses off, and have begun to discover the connection with this financial crisis. I only wish I had Chris's talent for covering topics that are obfuscated, complex, and away from main stream culture at this time. 

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course
[quote=john50]

My studies lead me to suggest that a turning point was the promotion of Evolution as a substitute religion called Secular Humanism for people who reject God and put their faith into an unproven and un-scentific theory.

[/quote]

 

...sorry to rain on your parade but religion is also "unproven and un-scientific". 

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Financial advise in the Qur'an?

I am not a expert on religion, but the Muslims I know say it is not allowed for them to pay interest. Maybe the Qur'an has some valueble lessons for us also. This in addition to what the bible could teach us.

Personally I think it comes down to common sense. Just like Chris teaches us in the Crash Course. When money is lended into exsistense, it follows that the money suply MUST grow to make up the money to pay the interest. Growing money suply = watering down = inflation. So interest is evil. No need for some unproven supernatural being to come to this conclusion... Sorry.

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

John50

I think you are correct, the global financial crisis is a moral crisis, but little to do with God. Instead think more about your statement, as true as gold.

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

I'm sorry.  Evolution is a scientific concept that describes how a system comprised of self-replicating entities can progressively adapt to conditions and faciliate the development of increased complexity.  Evolution as a general concept is airtight and can be proven or simulated in a number of different ways.  Applying evolution to the origin of life on earth is only slightly less well established with significant DNA and fossil evidence supporting it.

Secular humanism is not a religion in the normal sense of the word (but probably would be included in a more general definition) but is not implied or necessary after accepting evolution.  In any case, I fail to see how the morals or ethics implied by humanism is of any relation to our current situation (in my mind, it is likely a lot easier to link it to current apocalyptic religious doctrines--but I don't think that they are really responsible.  Simple human greed is a sufficient explanation).

My opinion of your main point is that religion has nothing to do with it at all and it is utterly absurd to link this to the current scientific understanding of the world (evolution) or secular ethics.  The root of the problem is more a lack of any ethics and the elitist club of the rich and powerful who have the power to tilt things further in their favor and simply aggravate the polarization of wealth and power until the whole thing system becomes unstable.  But I believe you'd see the exact same dynamics in a community of "God-fearing" men with religiously mandated authority.  

Also, the philosophy of the American founding fathers was Classic LIberalism and an attempt to escape religious persecution and the establishment of enforced metaphysics upon free citizens--not necessarily "God's divine wisdom".  Some of the founders were no doubt religion, but they had the sense to establish America as a secular nation where no one could impose their religion upon others because most of them came from situations where they were not the majority religion.  Also, your whole argument relies upon the existence of God, a proposition that is much more open to doubt than evolution.

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

"My studies lead me to suggest that a turning point was the promotion of Evolution as a substitute religion called Secular Humanism for people who reject God and put their faith into an unproven and un-scentific theory."

Then your studies have led you astray.  Evolution is science.  The evidence is overwhelming.  Only blind faith could lead you to believe otherwise.

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

[quote=john50]The role that God plays[/quote]

I am pleased to see someone wanting to address this topic. Although, I am always lit up when I hear quotations about what God wants, or needs, or sees, etc. And my sense is that john50 doesn't mean to speak for God. And in truth... if I get lit up that's my problem to deal with.

I am not a religious person but my spiritual beliefs are what gives my life meaning. In contrast, I see religion as just another way to program people into a common belief system. Spirit, on the other hand, (at least mine) has an affinity for freedom. And for the scientific or analytical folks they may find it less emotional to think of "spirit" as energy.

[quote=soulmaster]sorry to rain on your parade but religion is also "unproven and un-scientific"[/quote]

I don't think that it is important that religion becomes proven, or scientific, because I don't think religion is the key ingredient for  leading us forward. As with any experience in life it is always "awareness" that is the first step before we allow change to occur. In other words, If nothing changes... nothing changes.

Don't you see this in the "Crash Course?" We are given information (not advise) that helps us to become more aware. We are not told what to think but are shown new ways to look at, and understand, what's going on around us. What we do with that information is up to us.

This is the same format as spiritual awareness (for the analytical types call it "energy awareness). A neutral and informative way to see a different reality. Do what you want with the information.

Religion, though, often suggests that there is no other belief than its own. It is a group mind, you could say, that doesn't allow for individual freedom. And from any type of group mind (science - medicine - political - etc) there is no freedom. If you don't accept the mandate you're out of the club. This just says... "If you're not part of the solution - you're part of the problem."

Thus, we are presented with a dichotomy where we are told there is only one of two possibilities.

And while I am talking about group minds - what mind set does this forum, or this web site express? I say this just to point at something, not to pass judgement.

I will leave you with my favourite expression... "Spirit is not about being nice or being nasty... it's about being real."

 

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course
[quote=john50]

I would argue that the Global financial crisis - is to a large extent, a moral crisis.

....

My studies lead me to suggest that a turning point was the promotion of Evolution as a substitute religion called Secular Humanism for people who reject God and put their faith into an unproven and un-scentific theory.

[/quote]

I hear what you're saying about a moral crisis. I would agree. My perspective is that the crisis stems from a focus on "me" as opposed to "we" and the short term as opposed to the long term. This short term, self oriented focus can promote greed, lies and all sorts of destructive acts (from the long term "we" oriented perspective).

I would also agree that science as it now stands with morality and spirituality banished from it's fold is a problem. When the dominant story of the universe has no room for or at least doesn't actively promote basic human values like compassion and generosity, the culture that holds that story is bound to degenerate as ours has. I would argue that basic components of the scientific story such as evolution are perfectly compatible with a modified story that does include important values. See, for example, the work of Thomas Berry and Brian Swimme. The story of creation is compatible as well. I have no problem with someone who chooses to see the creation story as the literal truth as long as they don't insist that I hold the same view as me.

 

Steve

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

Those who believe that evolution is a science or has been proven should watch Ben Steins movie "EXPELLED, no intelligence allowed."  Evolution is the biggest hoax ever pulled over your eyes. Don't try to tell anyone evolution is a science or has been proven if they have seen this movie. 

What is happening to the world economy now was prophecied in the Bible 2,000 years ago.  Believers who study prophecy in the Bible are well advised about what is happening and will happen.  

Chris' Crash Course eloquently explains how God has brought all this together at this particular time.  

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

I would agree that our current financial crisis is anchored in moral failure, but I think it is questionable to link it back to evolution. I think it's more foundational than that.

I think the most interesting point to consider is what the Bible has to say about stewardship, and how a Biblical worldview can explain our current problems.

As you point out, the Bible has much to say about wealth and managing money, and there are many good programs that teach those principles (See Crown Financial Ministries for one of them). It is obvious that if a large enough group of people followed those principles, including of course our leaders in business and government, we would not be in this current economic mess.

I would further submit that man's sinful nature goes a long way to explaining why we are in this mess. Greed, power, selfishness, etc are a part of our nature, whether we describe or view ourselves as religious, spiritual, secular, or humanist. Doesn't matter, we are who we are, and we need help.

We do not know the day or the hour, but it is interesting to compare end times prophesies with the logical path that the Crash Course shows we are heading.

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

Chris (and all)

First, as I was going through Chris's Crash Course (Excellent work, thank you Chris!) I came to several realizations about America. As John who stated this string noted, the USA was founded on many biblical principles, by men who may not all be considered believers, but at least they saw the bible as a great source of wisdom which they used in establishing the USA. Through the Crash Course I learned just how far we have strayed from many of the financial principles taught in the bible and used by the founders in establishing this nation. Here are a few examples (I will confine my examples to the economic and monetary issues):

Regarding debt, the bible is consistent in it's teaching: Debt is not a good thing. It is seen as foolish. The followers of God are repeatedly instructed to "owe nothing to anyone, no, not to anybody" except a continual debt of love to others. To loan money at interest is not allowed, for the borrower becomes like the lenders slave. (Have you been in debt and felt that bondage! =-) To take on debt for others (cosigning) is clearly stated to be not wise. One is commanded to get out if it if at all possible. The cost of a building project should be figured beforehand, if there is not enough money to complete it, don't start. God even says ay nation that will follow Him will become a nation of lenders, but if it departs from Him it will become a nation of borrowers.

Regarding money, the bible contains many instructions about it. First, God hates unjust measures. Deceptive coins (not the full weight of precious metals), shrinking measuring containers (not giving the full weight of what was measured) and an unjust balance (same reason) are identified as reasons for God to condemn a nation. A consistent coin of precious metal was to be used. When there was abundance it should be stored in multiple areas (diversification) because you never know what tomorrow may bring. Each man was to render unto their government what they were required to. Loving money is taught as to be the root of all kinds of evil. Giving, sharing and doing good are to be the spirit of how money is used.

Thanks to Chris, I now better understand the huge shift in monetary policy when the US left the gold standard. Looking at it from a biblical perspective, by borrowing every dollar into existence, the USA's financial foundation is unstable. And because of the inflationary nature of fiat money, our "coin" is deceptive and the balance is unjust. (Getting less & less for the same coin.)

Imagine the change to society if, using Chris's example your grandfather being able to earn a days wage and bury that in the ground and 100 years later it could be dug up and it would still buy what a days wages would buy... Imagine not having to gamble with your money in the stock market just to try and get it to keep its value. A penny saved would actually be a penny earned.

As Msaur shared, I believe "... that our current financial crisis is anchored in moral failure." Defining "moral failure" as departing from the instructions of the God of the bible.

Scott

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

Golden Age - "Evolution is the biggest hoax ever pulled over your eyes."

This is the kind of scientific illiteracy that is dooming our society to 2nd class status.  When an education system fails to teach math, science, history, civics and critical thinking (or more to the point, I suppose, our students aren't motivated to learn it) the culture forgets what standards mean and we degenerate to the lowest common denominator.  Selfish interests, as opposed to enlightened self interest, will come to dictate our behaviors.  The Gordon Geckos of the world will rule.

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

WOW

pretty hot topic here. 

like will rogers said "i dont belong to any organized party(religion) i am a democrat " so not belonging to any one religion i can really say i belong to all religions. i am a sufi. no doubt there is great wisdom in the bible just as there is great wisdom in the koran, the bhagavad gita, the tao,the i ching, the book of the hopi,the course in miracles and the conference of the birds.

to state that this country was founded on christian principles is a little simplistic. many elements came from the iroquois. much of the thought came from the enlightenment and voltaire. certainly jefferson has come under much critcism from christians.

as far as evolution  is concerned i think it would be wise to (as xflies so often says) look at it objectively without the religious bias. it is a theory not a law. it is a scientific theory. and if you go back to my previous posts on the subject you will understand what that means.

be that as it may man has always looked for answers to the big questions, particularly in times of great suffering. we are in one of those times now and it will get much worse. so if you find your answers in the bible then that is a good thing if it is in the koran or the eightfold path of the buddha then that is good. for me god is not to be explained, debated or defended he/she is to be experienced. and that experience for me is that we are all one and there is only one god. so pick your flavor. depending on the day i like vanilla but manana it may be strawberry.

if people want to use religion to separate us then you can count me out. the word religion  comes from the latin "religio" to bind together. it would be wise to remember what the word means. we continue to divide ourselves with useless terms like republican, democrat, liberal, conservative, communist, fascist, capitalist,chinese, american christian jew muslim. these labels only enable those who would use the divide and conquer strategy to pursue their greed fueled selfish ends.

this following quote is from a book of quotations by the prophet mohammed

"the taker of usury and the giver of it, and the writer of its papers and the witness to it, are equal in crime"

namaste

joe

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

highplaces - "God even says ay nation that will follow Him will become a nation of lenders, but if it departs from Him it will become a nation of borrowers."

So, borrowing is bad and lending is good?  They are two sides of the same coin.  You can't have one without the other.

The truth is that borrowing and lending can either be good or bad depending on how they are done.  How many of us would be living in our own homes if we couldn't get a mortgage?  Many businesses would have difficulty functioning without lines of credit to keep the supplies flowing.  Even Wimpy couldn't have a hamburger today if he couldn't repay you on Tuesday. ;^)

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

I find myself siding with many:  This is a moral issue, more about our attitudes of entitlement and consumptive lifestyles than perhaps religion.  But, I will chime in that I personally believe while God and the primary message that religion - and I mean all religion - pursues, is good for society as a baseline for social structure, I will stop short of traveling beyond that.  Organized religion at almost every scale has taken advantage of people's insecurities, and monopolized on them for control.  The religious infrastructures run on money, and promote the acquisition of money by its members.  Why?, because the more money success the members have, the stronger and richer the church becomes.  It is those institutions that have, perhaps unintentionally, been the greatest catalyst to the rise in our consumptive lifestyles.  The people in this country who earn the least are the ones who as a demographic contribute the most to charity, and most charities are controlled by religious based organizations.

just my opinion though. 

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

Here, I'll connect faith to the Crash Course:


Too many people have faith that God favors the USA and will provide a convenient solution to any problem. So we can ignore the writing on the wall that points to a rather ugly demise for this once great nation, and just carry on as usual because God will take care of us.


Too many people are blissfully ignorant of the intellectual tools necessary to comprehend (and mitigate or solve) the problems because true knowledge and scientific methods threaten their blind faith.


I can think of other examples that indicate theology and faith are part of the problem, and I seriously doubt that praying will provide a solution. On the other hand, if we were to actually practice the foundational tenet of every religion - the ethic of reciprocity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity) - we might have a chance at finding a sustainable equilibrium in the world before we crash and burn.

Cheers.

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

 

I think you will have trouble finding "Thou shall not trade with derivatives" in the bible.

 In fact you will not find any mention of any economics policies that could not have been written by a camel farmer a couple of thousands of years ago. Which is not suprising, since the bible was written by those people, at that time.

Belive whatever you wish, but do remember what happens when religion and catastrophies mix. After the horrible tsunami several countries in the area decided god had punished them because their women had sinned. So in order to prevent any more tsunamis they tortured lots and lots of women. 

 If you think god gave us this because some people behaved in immoral ways, it is only natural to try to calm his fury by hurting those people. At least if history is anything to go by. 

 So  please, do NOT respond to this crisis with faith. Respond to it with reason.

 

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course
[quote=john50]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the role that God plays in "connecting the dots" strictly within the context of the Economy - Energy - and Environmental topics originating here at ChristMartenson.com It is not a religious discussion or place to win souls, but to discuss the connection of God to the Crash Course.

I ask you to relate the subjects of Faith/God/Crash Course, in an honoring way, that advances our understanding of the 3-E's, so we can prepare to make the world a better place for our families.There is no reason to get personal or insulting, we are all in this boat together.

[/quote]

John,

Thanks for having the courage to bring up this topic.

My faith and belief in God defines who I am.  I have been studying the history of our nation for several years now and like you, see the decline of our nation as a moral issue in which we have abandoned God's laws of financial stewardship and honoring Him in all we do, and instead have pursued a path of greed and selfishness.

Besides this site being an invaluable resource of information, the best book I've ever read that explains the principles behind our Nation's founding is, The 5000 Year Leap.  I cannot stress how excellent this book is.

(The 5000 Year Leap) http://www.xmission.com/~nccs/ftyl.html

My struggle is how to reconcile trust in God with saving food and gold/silver.  The pastors of my church recently were wanting to purchase a new building (not really purchase, but borrow lots of money) and were asking of us to sacrificially give towards the purchase.  They gave many messages on how God can provide even during tough times and that not risking for the Kingdom of God was a waste of one's life.

While I agree in principle with my pastors (that God can and will provide even during hard times and that to give one's life away for the Kingdom of God is what we are to be living for), in the end, I thought that a purchase of a new building during this economic crisis was a foolish endeavour and that I should be saving for the rough times ahead so that my family would be preserved.  So, I gave, but not sacrificially (I still have my gold/silver and food storage).

That's my dilemma in all of this.  Where does the road of faith and preparation for the coming collapse intersect?

Richard

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

 

Well, the bible is pretty straight forward.

 If you believe it to be the word of god, you should give your possessions to those who have none.

 If you think your pastor might have to build a new ark and save two of all species, then you must give your possessions to him, must you not? You do know that no rich man can enter heaven?

Then of course you might agree with me that investing is churches is like chris example of investing in war. The investment produces no economic value. But hey, if you want more churches, where more people like you will be asked to not spend money to help the people they love, but on more churches, where even more people like you will be asked not not care for the people they love.....

 

 

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

I consider myself to be a man of faith, although I am not religious.  To your specific question of where they intersect, that is for you to figure out.  Questions to help you think about it(the first is general, the other two specific to the situation you outlined):

If God will provide in times of crisis and need, how do you think that he will do that? 

What purpose will this building serve?  Will it help the church better serve the congregation in times of need?

How much of a sacarifice are the leaders of the church making to be able to take on this new building?

 

While I do not subscribe to any specific religion, I do understand (I think) where you are coming from.  My own answer to the first question above is that the provision will be done through those who have prepared and are willing to help out their community, which may not have prepared quite so well.  If this is the case, someone had better be preparing. 

Your struggle is part of the problem that I have with organized religion.  There has been tremendous good done by many religions, and yet they can also be the vehicle of extreme evil.  While the above situation is most likely on the better side of things, you are being asked to sacarifice some thing for "the greater good."  This should not be asked of any person, in my view.  To ask someone to give what they can afford is one thing, to ask that it be a "sacarifice" to me is entirely different.  Looking out for only ourselves is selfish, and that is not what I am trying to promote.  Making sure that we are able to survive and be in a position to help others when the need truly arrises is not selfish, it is prudent and gives rewards of it's own, which some feel are the rewards given by God.

 

I have probably rambled on long enough by now.

I hope that this helps.

All the best.

 

 

 

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course
Hey, folks:I‘m glad to see there’s people here interested in trying to incorporate faith & God into this discussion. I would argue that we’ve come to this site because we’re trying to figure out what is the right and good thing to do for ourselves, our loved ones and our communities. I assume all of us are here looking for guidance. I think we’ve adopted Chris Martenson as a kind of secular prophet because he saw trouble coming down the road before most of us did. What we do with the warning we get from Chris’ work will be determined by our world-view, our religious/scientific/economic assumptions and our ability to stay calm during a crisis.I think we ought to skip the evolution vs. intelligent design debate entirely. I see no point in using this forum to try to convince others, “NO! NO! You don’t really believe your most deeply held beliefs and I cannot discuss anything with you until you adapt your worldview to fit mine!!!” I personally am a Calvinist and a libertarian and a follower of the Austrian (or monetarist) school of economics. I was not raised with any of these beliefs; I came to them as an adult. Over the years I’ve had many friends who are atheists, agnostics, pagans, Buddhists and Jews and Christians of many permutations. I don’t require my friends to believe as I do. I’ve yet to meet anyone, including my wife, who agrees with all the things I think are the Truth. Civilized folks can agree to disagree. We’re all on this Web site because we believe: there’s trouble coming; we need to get ready for it; and in good conscience, we must warn others.  Most of us probably also believe it’s not enough to warn others, we should try to help our friends and neighbors get ready, too. If I may quote the Bible, or maybe Bono, “love they neighbor” is not a suggestion, it is a command. Maybe we can kick around Evolution vs. the Genesis narrative once we’ve got our small organic farms running and we’ve figured out how to feed ourselves and our neighbors without expecting help from that failed religious institution known as FEMA.  I won’t defend The Theory of Evolution, but I would like to remind my fellow Christians that Charles Darwin didn’t invent secular humanism; the idea’s as old as the Renaissance. The idea we should fight against is an idea that’s unfairly attached to Darwin, which is Social Darwinism. This monstrous idea was, unfortunately, adopted by a lot of prosperous white Christians in the late nineteenth century to help them ignore the needy and to blame victims of systemic injustice for their poverty and suffering. We need to root out this belief from our own hearts. If Chris Martenson is right, we’re going to see a lot of suffering people around. They will not suffer because they weren’t strong enough to survive. They will suffer because they’re in the path of an economic tsunami unleashed by powerful, foolish men. So, have a little sympathy for the poor. Jesus loved them and we may be joining them.  And that won’t be Darwin’s fault.

 

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

Kjalnot,

With all due respect my friend, if you don't have any valuable contribution to make to this thread, then please respect the rest of us who do.

Richard

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

 

With all due respect back, your personal perception of what is valuable in this tread is not relevant.

 The point of an open forum is for everyone to speak their mind on certain topics, and in joining such a forum you have to listen to opinions you do not agree with.  

 I find it offensive that some people belive that god cares about the inflation rate, but not of the billions of people who suffer in this world. But so what? Everyone is entitled to his opinion and has the right to express it

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course
Very well put.
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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

I personally would not say "do NOT respond with faith."  I would say to not respond with finger pointing and religious persecution.  Faith will be required to survive some of the rough times ahead, and it usually serves people well.  It is when hard and fast religion gets mixed in, saying that this has been brought on us by an angry god, or some other excuse, that trouble starts.

All the best.

 

Edited to fix grammatical errors

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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

[quote=Doug]

Golden Age - "Evolution is the biggest hoax ever pulled over your eyes."

This is the kind of scientific illiteracy that is dooming our society to 2nd class status.  When an education system fails to teach math, science, history, civics and critical thinking (or more to the point, I suppose, our students aren't motivated to learn it) the culture forgets what standards mean and we degenerate to the lowest common denominator.  Selfish interests, as opposed to enlightened self interest, will come to dictate our behaviors.  The Gordon Geckos of the world will rule.

[/quote]

Doug, I need to amplify the point I am making about evolution.  Evolution is a hoax but never would I propose that we lower the standards of education.  I wish the standards of education being offered in our schools today were equal to the standards of education offered when I was a student. 

Many students graduating from high school today cannot find the common denominator of a fraction.  Most cannot identify the States of our United Nation on a map nor can they tell you what the names of the capitols of those same states are.  Most cannot write an intelligent, legible sentence and how many of today's high school students can parse a sentence, if asked?  

Most students graduating from high school today would not be able to identify an adverb, noun, preposition, verb or proper noun in a sentence if given that task.  Most students graduating from high school today cannot make change from a dollar at the grocery store.  Because of that fact, cash registers today tell the cashier what the proper amount of change the customer is entitled to when accepting cash from a customer.  

If you asked the average student graduating from high school today what is the significance of the dates, 1492, 1776 or 1812, I doubt that 1 out of 10 would know.  Or which Patriot said, "Give me liberty or give me death."  Or who invented the light bulb.

Our children are not receiving the education they deserve.  We adults have allowed this to happen.  Most households today depend on a two incomes to pay the bills.  That leaves little time to be involved in our schools, in the quality of education, PTA meetings, visits to classrooms, etc.  How many on this board know the names of your childrens teachers or the name of the principal at your childrens school? 

 

The Ten Commandments are not allowed to be posted in public buildings today.   Some people are offended when the words "Under God" are recited in the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.  And this is just one of the signs that tell you why our nation has degenerated into the condition that we face today.  Greed is awarded and the devil take the hindmost.  Another sign of our nations degeneration is that the prisons and jails are full of men and women that abused drugs .  There are areas in most large American cities where gangs rule entire neighborhoods.  Billions are spent every year on vain attempts to control the drug trade and billions are spent every year on illegal drugs. 

Is religion perfect?  Absolutely not.  Are people who believe in the Bible perfect.  Absolutely not.  Was our nation a better place to live when Christian moral values dictated the way most of us lived our lives?  Absolutely.  

These are my opinions, and my opinions are not meant to offend anyone nor is this an attempt to tell anyone how they should live their lives.  Nor do I have the answers of what we should do to correct the problems.  I just have my opinions. 

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Doug
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Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

Golden Age

While I disagree with much of what you say, I don't really wish to change your beliefs except where they conflict with reality.  My point in the earlier post was that our education system has failed anyone who really believes evolution is a hoax.  It's very, very, very important that people learn the lessons of science.  You can disagree with science and argue with it, but unless you have objective evidence or scientific studies to dispute it, you'd better pay attention.  Scientific method is probably the only self correcting systemic mechanism in our society.  If you can't disprove or at least intelligently question a scientific finding, you should be re-examining your premise, not calling on the guy in the sky or his emissaries on earth.

I guess what I'm making a plea for is that people pay attention to reality.  If the coming crash is as bad as some think, we are going to need to have our feet on the ground and be reality based.

BTW, I share some, but not all, of your complaints about our education system.  My eyes have been somewhat opened by having two kids, one of whom is a HS senior this year and the other a HS sophomore.  They have attended the local small town school district since kindergarten.  I've known or at least met every one of their teachers.  I know the principal, all their coaches and the superintendant.  We are a two income household but have arranged our schedules to be home most of the time they need us here.  I've coached my son's baseball teams from his second year in Little League until he started HS ball, and I still coach him in his summer league.  I dance with my daughter in her yearly recitals.  Both kids are on the high honor roll (95+) every quarter.  The school's curriculum is good, but could be better.  I'm confident that they are being well prepared for whatever direction they wish to take in college.  My daughter wants to go into the sciences and I couldn't be more thrilled.  My son still hopes for an mlb career, but is preparing for college anyway.  I know all their friends and most of their parents.  I've coached about half of their friends at one time or another.  There are no good excuses for kids to fail if they come equiped with the intellect to handle the work. 

My point in this little recitation, besides taking the opportunity to brag up my kids, is to point out that, to a large extent, school is what the kids and their families make of it.  The opportunities are there if the kids are motivated to take them.  I have absolutely no reason to wish they were being indoctrinated in some religion.  And I would raise hell at the next board meeting if I found out one of the teachers were trying to do so.  Religion has no place in a science classroom.

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john50
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Financial Integrity

Thank you for the valuable discussion. We have some very articulate and thoughtful people here, I am impressed. Smile

I want to throw out for discussion a couple fundamental thoughts I have collected on this subject as it relates to personal finance and the Crash Course.

Financial Integrity

  1. Be Faithful with What We Are Given. This means being disciplined with $1000 is a step before being trusted to manage $1 million dollars.
  2. Be Faithful in Every Area. The image below summarizes the concept of being a good steward of our money. How are you (privately), doing in these areas? Are there any areas you would add, or remove, and why?

financial-balance.gif

 

 

 

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oldstyle
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Posts: 16
Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

[quote= Kjalnot]You do know that no rich man can enter heaven?[/quote]

This is a misquote. The expression is that "it is harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for his camel to pass through the eye of a needle."

In this case the eye of a needle is what the arched gateways into a walled city were called in those long ago days. A laden down camel owned by a rich man had to struggle, almost bent to its knees, to pass through the gate. There is no judgement in this statement, by God or any other, there is just the reality that material possessions can be a lot to carry. And the same goes for debt, which is the other side of the dichotomy.

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Kjalnot
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Posts: 15
Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

 

Now, you can go on all day telling youself that when he (god) says kill anyone who works on a sunday, he actually means, just have a coke.

 But on a serious note, do you not feel that there is a very strong undertone in the bible for giving all your possessions away?

Luke 19:1-10 He entered Jericho and was passing through it. A man was there named Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was rich. He was trying to see who Jesus was, but on account of the crowd he could not, because he was short in stature. So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore tree to see him, because he was going to pass that way. When Jesus came to the place, he looked up and said to him, "Zacchaeus, hurry and come down; for I must stay at your house today." So he hurried down and was happy to welcome him. All who saw it began to grumble and said, "He has gone to be the guest of one who is a sinner." Zacchaeus stood there and said to the Lord, "Look, half of my possessions, Lord, I will give to the poor; and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will pay back four times as much." Then Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he too is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek out and to save the lost."
 

 

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john50
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Posts: 74
Re: Connecting Faith to the Crash Course

The message of the Bible is Love. (and redemption). All the rest fits under that heading of Love.

In the days of Jesus, giving was typically to look after the needs of Widows and Orphans. It meant having your home open to feed a stranger or help someone in need. When you have a banquent, it was customary to invite more than family, you invited the community - including the undesirables. Think about that when Thanks Giving comes around, are you giving to any strangers in need? God provides for us our needs, in abundance so we can share with others, not so we can hoard gold only for ourselves.

Kjalnot - there is no undertone of stripping believers of their possesions in the Bible - you have that confused with Hank Paulson and the Beltway Gang.

The story you quoted of Zacchaeus needs to be understood. Zacchaeus was a tax collector who would demand tribute as he sees fit and split the proceeds with Rome, too frequently in a 'mofia' sort of way. He became rich by stepping on others, and when Jesus touched his heart, Zacchaeus decided to atone for his sins by giving back to those he robbed. It is a story of loving a greed scum bag, and restoring him to decency. It was Zacchaeus who made the choice and benefited from giving up his fraudulent ways. If that makes you Biblephobic, then perhaps you have issues on your heart you need to deal with.

This story illustrates a problem with society- one cannot serving two masters. Rome or God, which is your master? Do you render unto Ceasar, or do you put God as your Lord? America today, is frequently being compared to the Imperalistic ways of the Roman Empire during the fall.

Historian Edward Gibbon wrote The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, in 1776. There can be no doubt that his dire warning played a role in warning the American fore-Fathers, to avoid pagan conduct, and debasing the currency were two of many major lessons in history. (Gibbon was a Pagan himself). Unfortunately, people do not learn from history, they repeat the same mistakes over and over.

Obama said in debate that no imperalistic country was ever successful extending their Empire while their economy at home was in decline (paraphrased). I agree, he showed some foreign policy wisdom greater than war mongering for money. Bring the troops home and stay clear from engaging in a war with Iran/Russia/China. Love not War - any arguement?

 

 

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