Confiscation

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plantguy90's picture
plantguy90
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Confiscation

Whats to prevent the State, armed with its thugs, and databases, to declare items, including precious metals, to be confiscated?  Break the law and you go to prison. 

Fogle's picture
Fogle
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Posts: 35
Re: Confiscation

Plantguy, don't worried too much
about confiscation, yet.

There are several reasons
why the confiscation scenario is unlikely. For one: the situation is
very different to the thirties. There is no gold standard now, for
example.

It is still a good idea to
buy gold in person and pay with cash. Just to keep the paper trail to
a minimum. The less people that know of your stash, the better.
Keeping it at home combined with every one knowing about it, is
asking for problems. Be that either the government or ordinary
criminals.

Chris also wrote a thing
or two about gold and confiscation in this Crash Concept :
http://www.peakprosperity.com/blog/gold-confiscation/9436

We have our gold spread
around. Some at the bank in a safety deposit box and several other
places. We even have some junk silver (old coins) buried somewhere in the woods.

We might never get the
chance to dig it up. Which is fine, because, maybe a few centuries
from now, some lucky soul will find it. Kind of, like the treasures sometimes found, dating back to the last days of the Roman Empire. Hmm, do I see a paralel here?

 

SteveS's picture
SteveS
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Posts: 358
Re: Confiscation

I was reading some about the gold confiscation of the 30's, but it isn't clear to me exactly what was taken. Was it just coins? I imagine jewelry was not taken. So what stops someone from chaining together their coins into a necklace? Would plain bullion (like pampe swiss) have been taken? Anybody know exactly how it worked then?

Davos's picture
Davos
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Re: Confiscation

Hello SteveS:

Bullion only. Jewelers could hold it as long as it was for use in the very near future. If you opened a safe deposit box you needed an IRS agent. Today there are vault like commercial storage facilities one could use instead of putting his family in harms way or hoping the bank will stay open and today since there isn't a gold standard I myself don't think they will go this route...but who knows.

You could also keep 100 bucks worth of gold.

After they did this when another country gave dollars and demanded gold they gave them the 96% pure gold coins, not the 99.9999% pure bullion bars.

http://www.wellsfargonevadagold.com/confiscation-order.pdf

I really lamented a lot over this issue, but my final take is that they had to devalue the dollar and reduce their existing debt and with people having so much gold the personal gold became an obstacle. What I am saying, and not all too well is that if they said okay folks the dollar is worth .40 cents today people would have just used the gold and silver coins that they had in their posession.

That is just my 2 cents, and unlike Ben I didn't teach the depression in college :) But this guy below did and this was a really, really interesting read and IMHO this guy has a hell of a lot more grey matter then Bernanke.

http://users.rcn.com/mgfree/Economics/goldHistory.html 

 Hope that helps, take care 

SteveS's picture
SteveS
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Re: Confiscation

Thanks Davos - I had read the Executive Order but was not familiar with the Holzer paper. Very interesting. I'm still not clear on what happened to jewelry. One could hold $100 of bullion and collector coins, but jewelry isn't explicity mentioned. I imagine it was exempt as it would require assaying each piece. Although the Holzer paper memtions an unsuccesful attempt at confiscating a 14 carat gold rooster. I think one of the most intriguing aspects of that confiscation was the buying of gold at $20.67 and revaluing it at $35 less than a year later, devaluing the dollar 40% in the act. I imagine a lot of Americans lost any remaining faith in their government after that. Good lessons in this.....

plantguy90's picture
plantguy90
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Posts: 271
Re: Confiscation

OK, so on a current and practical level, is there any difference between the various forms of gold we take delivery of?

 A Monex agent told me that the 22kt coins are not registered, therefore more readily "hideable," whereas the bullion and other 24kt stuff was registered with the IRS, I dont know if thats true or not.  She obviously wanted to sell me coins, but I wanted bullion.

SamLinder's picture
SamLinder
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Re: Confiscation

Davos,

If I've read the above link correctly (How Americans Lost Their Right To Own Gold And Became Criminals in the Process by Henry Mark Holzer), it is still illegal for Americans to possess gold [emphasis mine]:

The Law Today

The precedent established in Pike and Brouwer remains the law of the land-at least in the Ninth Circuit-at the present time No other court of comparable jurisdiction has ruled otherwise on the validity of the criminal sanctions against Americans who own gold. As things stand now, an American who owns gold is courting a felony conviction. Moreover, under the Gold Reserve Act, all the gold he owns is subject to forfeit while he, himself, is subject to a penalty double in amount to the value of the gold.

 

Yet gold is being freely bought, sold, exchanged, stored, etc. What am I missing here?

plantguy90's picture
plantguy90
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Posts: 271
Re: Confiscation

Am thinking about confiscation again, and am wondering, does shipping your gold overseas really protect you from anything?  Just saw where Marc Faber recommends that, but what good does that do you?

You get a nice letter from the Govt, saying in effect, "We know that you have purchased XXX amount of gold when, when and when, and you are hereby ordered to surrender the gold at this date at this place.  Failure to do so will amount to jail time, fines, etc."

So you write a nice letter saying I sent the gold overseas, I pissed it away on a gambling binge in Macao, whatever... 

You still go to jail, no?  And possibly fined in money you no longer have... 

 

 

A. M.'s picture
A. M.
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Posts: 2368
Re: Confiscation

Keep in mind your precious metals aren't the only thing at risk.

http://standeyo.com/News_Files/Exec.Orders/EOs.html

Anti-Hoarding laws could effect all of us under the "spread the wealth" president.

Government: "So everyone can be neglected or interfered with equally." - Captain Malcolm Reynolds. ;)

Ragnar_Danneskjold's picture
Ragnar_Danneskjold
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Re: Confiscation

Sam,

Ownership of gold became legal again by an act of Congress shortly after Nixon took the US off the gold standard (1974?). 

plantguy90's picture
plantguy90
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Re: Confiscation

Do you really think its better to buy coins that are untraceable with cash locally vs. buying registered bullion with credit cards through online dealers?

Is that extra veil worth the extra effort/cost?

 

 

Mr. Fri's picture
Mr. Fri
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Posts: 220
Re: Confiscation
plantguy90 wrote:

OK, so on a current and practical level, is there any difference between the various forms of gold we take delivery of?

A Monex agent told me that the 22kt coins are not registered,
therefore more readily "hideable," whereas the bullion and other 24kt
stuff was registered with the IRS, I dont know if thats true or not. 
She obviously wanted to sell me coins, but I wanted bullion.

plantguy90 wrote:

Do you really think its better to buy coins that are untraceable with cash locally vs. buying registered bullion with credit cards through online dealers?

Is that extra veil worth the extra effort/cost?

 

Plantguy, did you ever get an answer to these questions?

 

 

 

plantguy90's picture
plantguy90
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Jan 27 2009
Posts: 271
Re: Confiscation

Nope.

Ragnar_Danneskjold's picture
Ragnar_Danneskjold
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Posts: 100
Re: Confiscation

Unless you are paying cash for more than $5K worth of bullion at a crack, it is extremely unlikely that US gov't would know anything about your transaction.  In transactions >$5K, a Suspicious Activity Report (SAR) might be filed.   Coin dealers are frequently fear mongers trying to get you to pay a significant premium for products of lower value.   Avoid whatever hype they're selling and buy American Eagles or 24kt bullion.  If someone just wants to sell hype, I'd find another vendor.  There are some advantages to buying locally, i.e., less delay/risk.  But you'll pay a premium for that.  So, your comfort level will be a factor in whatever you ultimately pay. 

SamLinder's picture
SamLinder
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Posts: 1499
Re: Confiscation

Find a dealer who will let you pay cash - no questions asked. In today's environment, I wouldn't use a credit card or a check or anything that could trace back to me.

There's at least one coin dealer in the Portland, OR metro area that I'm aware of who will work on a cash basis - buy or sell. That's who I'm going to see when I'm ready. Hopefully, you can find one in your area who will do the same.

[Edit on 4/29/09]

Since I wrote the above, I've discovered that there's almost no way of easily purchasing PM's without some information being divulged along the line. Specifically, my bank records all my transactions and the limitations that the bullion dealers are required to adhere to make it very difficult to be anonymous any more. Sigh....

davidm's picture
davidm
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Posts: 23
Re: Confiscation

Why would the government want to confiscate gold? If it is to reestablish a gold based currency, isn't this good? And wouldn't we want to support it? And wouldn't the currency they give us for the gold actually be valuable? And wouldn't we all be celebrating the end of the currency fears?

David

SamLinder's picture
SamLinder
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Re: Confiscation

davidm,

Unless you accidentally posted this here instead of the Definitive Humor thread, I would strongly suggest you read all about gold confiscation in the 1930's. It wasn't pretty.

A. M.'s picture
A. M.
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 22 2008
Posts: 2368
Re: Confiscation

Here's a true story about a fellow that sells gold, and his encounter with the government.

http://the-moneychanger.com/dangerous.phtml

Not fresh, but not stale either.

Cheers,

Aaron

PS - this guy gives a lot of great analysis of the Gold market. I enjoy reading his work, even if he is a bit radical. I suppose it's easy to be so if you've been harassed as much as him.

Roundhouse's picture
Roundhouse
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Posts: 36
Re: Confiscation

Great post, Aaron.  Gives new meaning to the 'Land of the Free'?  I encourage everyone to read it.... sure made me pause and reflect.

davidm's picture
davidm
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Posts: 23
Re: Confiscation

I can't imagine I'll get around to this issue soon, what with all the other topics raised here, but maybe it will turn up in other posts. Meanwhile, I'll take CM's opinion on the matter and assume that if there is gold confiscation, we won't be celebrating.

David

 

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