The Coming Insurrection

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The Coming Insurrection

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Greece has had revolution

Greece has had revolution after revolution.  It isn't collapsing,  its merely changing its shoes.  But, it might mean they default which of course would have implications for the rest of Europe.

The issue here is not that Glenn and I see the problems differently,  we do not.  The problem is that we see very different solutions.  I fear that THIS is what will cause the major problems here in the US.  The difference is between those who think the government needs to be fixed and do its job and those who think the government needs to be removed.  

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Glenn Beck?

Does anyone believe him anymore?  My gawd folks.  Maybe he and that philanderer Boehner should just go on a retreat and have a good cry together. Cry

Doug

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Nuggets and Low SNR
Doug wrote:

Does anyone believe him anymore?  My gawd folks.  Maybe he and that philanderer Boehner should just go on a retreat and have a good cry together. Cry

Doug

Believe in?  No, never did.  More like observe with mild amusement.

But, I remember when he used to drop a worthwhile nugget or two fairly regularly.  He has a hostage audience with me - we have one TV set in our gym at work and only 2 channels to choose from.  The other is CNN.  I go with Fox primarily because their market bug is bigger than CNN's and it's easier to see from across the room.  That and the glossy lipped bimbos (Shepard Smith is the absolute worst - I expect him to start channeling Keith Olbermann and break into some Shakespearean soliloquy) on Fox are just slightly less nauseating than the glossy lipped bimboes on CNN.  Inevitably, my workout overlaps with some portion of the GB show.  Some days I leave the captioning on and sift for gold dust.  On rare days I take the headphones off and actually listen and can come away with a nugget.

Most days I put my ear buds in, crank up the iPod to some primal Grateful Dead circa 1968/69, mix in some fast ass bluegrass picking by Tony Rice, Bryan Sutton or Michael Cleveland and I put my head down and go.

I won't go out of my way to watch him for fear of getting crocodile tear stains on my shoes, but every now and then he has something worth listening to.  That said, the signal to noise ratio has really dropped over the past few years.

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maybe...

An interesting thread title - the coming insurrection.

There might be one but it will not be because of the stuff going in Wisconsin or because of Glenn Beck.  It will be because of money.  America has become, spoiled, lazy, and ignorant since WW2.  We elected politicians that did us dirty - from both parties.  We lost our ability to make sound financial decisions both on a personal/family level and in the government.  We quit paying attention what politicians were saying and doing and either did not vote or voted for people who should never have been elected.  We allowed the government to grow far beyond any reasonable point and we allowed politicians to take our freedoms away.  Now we live in what is becoming a soft tyranny.  We owe far to much money.  We exported millions of decent paying jobs to third world places out of pure greed.  Now we are in trouble.

As the credit/debt bubble continues to unwind we are going to have a reduction in the standard of living.  We have created a truely huge class of dependency that probably can not survive if they do not have large sums of money/benefits given to them.  Our education system has failed and we have millions of people who are unprepared to do the jobs we do have so we import people from other places to do them.  Inflation has entered the picture.  There is way too much money and a boat load of people struggling to make money with it any way they can (wall street).  Commodities and energy are surging.  The Fed Res is pumping the financial system trying to keep it and the government from collapsing.  That can not go on forever.  So, people have to spend less and either service or defaut on their debt.  Government has to spend less and either service or default on its debt.  There is no way we are going to be able to pay the entitlements we have agreed to pay into the future on the local, state, or federal level.

The money given to the class of dependency has to be cut and it has to be cut a lot.  I believe this is where the trouble will start.  As this funding is cut many people will have to work that do not now work.  They will have to work very hard.  For many of them this is outside of their life experience and will seem unreasonable.  Multi-generational welfare families will be forced to completely change their mind set.  Retirees who used to get sufficient money to live will have to go back to work.  People who thought they were going to get to retire will not be able to as they will have to continue to work.  The monster hiding in the corner is there are not jobs for all these people and there are certainly not enough jobs that pay enough to live on for all these people and in my opinion there never will be again.  I believe that is where your insurrection will start.  People looking for what they believe are reasonable quality food and shelter and safety and they will not be able to obtain these.  When they can not get these things they are going to react.  They are going to steal, rob, run cons, sell drugs, prostitute themselves, you name it.  Violence will increase.  The part of society that can still support itself will insist that it be protected from those that can not.  As a result, there will be crackdowns on those struggling to live decent lives.  It may well get very ugly.  It will start in cities.

 

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How would North

How would North African/Middle Eastern style protests go over in the US?  We are already seeing groups that are trying to fight the system in Wisconsin.  There is a body of law that could be followed, but since that is not working for the folks against the issues, they are working outside the system.  There are lawmakers hiding in Illinois from both Indiana and Wisconsin in an attempt to derail the system simply because the system is not working for them.  What happens if the crowds of protestors begin to demand the abolishment of the system itself.

Is that possible in the US?  If the Federal Government were to begin true austerity measures that impacted social programs and entitlements, and US Citizens were to protest and demand the dissolution of the Federal Government, what would happen?  Would they disband?  Would they declare martial law and ban such protests?  Would troops be brought in to put down those that protest?  If the common belief was that our government sold us out, screwed up the economy and is trying to pass the bill to us and our descendants, resulting in protests that became violent, what would they do?

If the majority of Americans were demanding the Federal Government be dissolved until it could be replaced by a truely representative government, would our lawmakers pack and go home or defend their system against those they are supposed to be serving.  On one hand, I have a hard time believing that the government would hand over the reins to an interim government.  On the other hand, I've been raised to believe that our own government would never turn its troops against the US Citizens the way the Libyan goverment has.

Let's say that two years from now, we are in a world of hurt.  The Eurozone is in trouble and so is the US.  Nobody is buying our debt and while we have not seen hyperinflation, we sure have seen inflation.  Most troops have been brought back from foreign bases and the military has been cut to half its current size.  Most government programs have been axed since there just is not the money in the system to support them.  Taxes are running over 50% and getting higher.  Fuel is rationed via high costs and taxes and the result is the average person taking the bus to work, while the rich still have plenty of gas to run Ferrari's and BMWs on mostly empty freeways.  Then, the final staw comes with the suspension of the food stamps program and all hell breaks loose.  What would happen if the majority of Americans took to the streets and demanded the current administration immediately step down?

How would our government react to the demand that it stop operation and hand the reins over to a new government?

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not good...

tim_p - I do not think it would go good.  The  military is not likely to fire on people unless they are misbehaving.  The military is sworn to uphold the constitution and not the C&C of the moment.  Remember, the military is us.  I do not know what is going to happen.  Is it going to grind down over a long period of time or grind down in a week.  I do not know.  The longer the better.  The longer the period of time we have to adjust to the lower standard of living the better.  Quick adjustments are the worse and most likely to bring on violence.  Remember the 1992 riots around the video about Rodney King ?  How does stealing a large format TVs have anything to with social injustice ?

 

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I Agree With Dshields
dshields wrote:

An interesting thread title - the coming insurrection.

There might be one but it will not be because of the stuff going in Wisconsin or because of Glenn Beck.  It will be because of money.  America has become, spoiled, lazy, and ignorant since WW2.  We elected politicians that did us dirty - from both parties.  We lost our ability to make sound financial decisions both on a personal/family level and in the government.  We quit paying attention what politicians were saying and doing and either did not vote or voted for people who should never have been elected.  We allowed the government to grow far beyond any reasonable point and we allowed politicians to take our freedoms away.  Now we live in what is becoming a soft tyranny.  We owe far to much money.  We exported millions of decent paying jobs to third world places out of pure greed.  Now we are in trouble.

As the credit/debt bubble continues to unwind we are going to have a reduction in the standard of living.  We have created a truely huge class of dependency that probably can not survive if they do not have large sums of money/benefits given to them.  Our education system has failed and we have millions of people who are unprepared to do the jobs we do have so we import people from other places to do them.  Inflation has entered the picture.  There is way too much money and a boat load of people struggling to make money with it any way they can (wall street).  Commodities and energy are surging.  The Fed Res is pumping the financial system trying to keep it and the government from collapsing.  That can not go on forever.  So, people have to spend less and either service or defaut on their debt.  Government has to spend less and either service or default on its debt.  There is no way we are going to be able to pay the entitlements we have agreed to pay into the future on the local, state, or federal level.

The money given to the class of dependency has to be cut and it has to be cut a lot.  I believe this is where the trouble will start.  As this funding is cut many people will have to work that do not now work.  They will have to work very hard.  For many of them this is outside of their life experience and will seem unreasonable.  Multi-generational welfare families will be forced to completely change their mind set.  Retirees who used to get sufficient money to live will have to go back to work.  People who thought they were going to get to retire will not be able to as they will have to continue to work.  The monster hiding in the corner is there are not jobs for all these people and there are certainly not enough jobs that pay enough to live on for all these people and in my opinion there never will be again.  I believe that is where your insurrection will start.  People looking for what they believe are reasonable quality food and shelter and safety and they will not be able to obtain these.  When they can not get these things they are going to react.  They are going to steal, rob, run cons, sell drugs, prostitute themselves, you name it.  Violence will increase.  The part of society that can still support itself will insist that it be protected from those that can not.  As a result, there will be crackdowns on those struggling to live decent lives.  It may well get very ugly.  It will start in cities.

I just wanted to say I agree.

Because often I have not. :)

Poet

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dshields.... well said.

dshields.... well said.

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2012 should be interesting
Tim_P wrote:

How would North African/Middle Eastern style protests go over in the US?  We are already seeing groups that are trying to fight the system in Wisconsin.  There is a body of law that could be followed, but since that is not working for the folks against the issues, they are working outside the system.  There are lawmakers hiding in Illinois from both Indiana and Wisconsin in an attempt to derail the system simply because the system is not working for them.  What happens if the crowds of protestors begin to demand the abolishment of the system itself.

Is that possible in the US?  If the Federal Government were to begin true austerity measures that impacted social programs and entitlements, and US Citizens were to protest and demand the dissolution of the Federal Government, what would happen?  Would they disband?  Would they declare martial law and ban such protests?  Would troops be brought in to put down those that protest?  If the common belief was that our government sold us out, screwed up the economy and is trying to pass the bill to us and our descendants, resulting in protests that became violent, what would they do?

If the majority of Americans were demanding the Federal Government be dissolved until it could be replaced by a truely representative government, would our lawmakers pack and go home or defend their system against those they are supposed to be serving.  On one hand, I have a hard time believing that the government would hand over the reins to an interim government.  On the other hand, I've been raised to believe that our own government would never turn its troops against the US Citizens the way the Libyan goverment has.

Let's say that two years from now, we are in a world of hurt.  The Eurozone is in trouble and so is the US.  Nobody is buying our debt and while we have not seen hyperinflation, we sure have seen inflation.  Most troops have been brought back from foreign bases and the military has been cut to half its current size.  Most government programs have been axed since there just is not the money in the system to support them.  Taxes are running over 50% and getting higher.  Fuel is rationed via high costs and taxes and the result is the average person taking the bus to work, while the rich still have plenty of gas to run Ferrari's and BMWs on mostly empty freeways.  Then, the final staw comes with the suspension of the food stamps program and all hell breaks loose.  What would happen if the majority of Americans took to the streets and demanded the current administration immediately step down?

How would our government react to the demand that it stop operation and hand the reins over to a new government?

It's  a real possibility that if things get worse in the next couple of years, people in the U.S. will be emboldened to revolt. Troops are spread all over the globe, policemen are often in unions that are being pressured to abandon collective bargaining. So there may not be a way for the govt to respond appropriately. It's a very pre-Glasnost Russian style scenario.

Govts everywhere are weakening financially and don't have the moral authority to hold it all together.  As the fabric unravels, particularly if entitlements like Social Security and Medicare are denied, people will not only be economically destitute, they will be very very angry. My husband and I used to talk a lot about this. I thought people would turn more fascist, more thuggish, more authoritarian, but that all changes when govts can't afford to provide a pay check. My husband thought people would reorganize, unions would strengthen, govts would be tossed out. It would be chaotic, but might be doable. Hard to say.

If Obama was playing his cards right, he'd start getting ahead of the curve, by addressing public sentiment about banksters and other organized criminals and start jailing these people for fraud, theft and racketeering, then go into their Byzantine connections with congress and throw the guilty in jail, too. But he won't, because he's the criminal in charge. 2012 is going to be an interesting year!

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My thoughts
dshields wrote:

The monster hiding in the corner is there are not jobs for all these people and there are certainly not enough jobs that pay enough to live on for all these people and in my opinion there never will be again.  I believe that is where your insurrection will start.  People looking for what they believe are reasonable quality food and shelter and safety and they will not be able to obtain these. <snip>  Violence will increase.  The part of society that can still support itself will insist that it be protected from those that can not.  As a result, there will be crackdowns on those struggling to live decent lives.  It may well get very ugly.

Dshields

It seems to me that over the past few weeks your writing has reflected a broader and deeper view of what is happening.  You have made multiple posts lately that show insight and passion, and express your views very well.  The condensed excerpt above is just one example.  You seem to be making a notable effort to add to the conversation in a way that is productive to people of varying views.  For what it’s worth, I want you to know I appreciate your efforts.

Travlin 

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But when a long train of abuses....
Tim_P wrote:

How would North African/Middle Eastern style protests go over in the US?  We are already seeing groups that are trying to fight the system in Wisconsin.  There is a body of law that could be followed, but since that is not working for the folks against the issues, they are working outside the system.  There are lawmakers hiding in Illinois from both Indiana and Wisconsin in an attempt to derail the system simply because the system is not working for them.  What happens if the crowds of protestors begin to demand the abolishment of the system itself.

Is that possible in the US?  If the Federal Government were to begin true austerity measures that impacted social programs and entitlements, and US Citizens were to protest and demand the dissolution of the Federal Government, what would happen?  Would they disband?  Would they declare martial law and ban such protests?  Would troops be brought in to put down those that protest?  If the common belief was that our government sold us out, screwed up the economy and is trying to pass the bill to us and our descendants, resulting in protests that became violent, what would they do?

If the majority of Americans were demanding the Federal Government be dissolved until it could be replaced by a truely representative government, would our lawmakers pack and go home or defend their system against those they are supposed to be serving.  On one hand, I have a hard time believing that the government would hand over the reins to an interim government.  On the other hand, I've been raised to believe that our own government would never turn its troops against the US Citizens the way the Libyan goverment has.

Let's say that two years from now, we are in a world of hurt.  The Eurozone is in trouble and so is the US.  Nobody is buying our debt and while we have not seen hyperinflation, we sure have seen inflation.  Most troops have been brought back from foreign bases and the military has been cut to half its current size.  Most government programs have been axed since there just is not the money in the system to support them.  Taxes are running over 50% and getting higher.  Fuel is rationed via high costs and taxes and the result is the average person taking the bus to work, while the rich still have plenty of gas to run Ferrari's and BMWs on mostly empty freeways.  Then, the final staw comes with the suspension of the food stamps program and all hell breaks loose.  What would happen if the majority of Americans took to the streets and demanded the current administration immediately step down?

How would our government react to the demand that it stop operation and hand the reins over to a new government?

The second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence tells us what is both our right and duty to do.

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The noose
Travlin wrote:
dshields wrote:

The monster hiding in the corner is there are not jobs for all these people and there are certainly not enough jobs that pay enough to live on for all these people and in my opinion there never will be again.  I believe that is where your insurrection will start.  People looking for what they believe are reasonable quality food and shelter and safety and they will not be able to obtain these. <snip>  Violence will increase.  The part of society that can still support itself will insist that it be protected from those that can not.  As a result, there will be crackdowns on those struggling to live decent lives.  It may well get very ugly.

Dshields

It seems to me that over the past few weeks your writing has reflected a broader and deeper view of what is happening.  You have made multiple posts lately that show insight and passion, and express your views very well.  The condensed excerpt above is just one example.  You seem to be making a notable effort to add to the conversation in a way that is productive to people of varying views.  For what it’s worth, I want you to know I appreciate your efforts.

Travlin 

LOL - you must be feeling good today...

The truth is there probably will be some kind of social problem in a while.  CM has it pretty well figured - the 3 E's.  The Environment one we have more space to work with.  The Energy and Economy ones are going to get us first.  I think the Energy E and the Economy E are tightly connected.  As energy prices go up prices of everything are going up.  This will put a noose around the economy.  It is going to be big trouble.  Every time we grocrey shop I pick up a few things for my stash in the basement.  I have about 2 weeks of decent food, water, and even stuff for the animals now.  My target is a one month supply.

 

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Longer term storage?
dshields wrote:

Every time we grocrey shop I pick up a few things for my stash in the basement.  I have about 2 weeks of decent food, water, and even stuff for the animals now.  My target is a one month supply.

dshields -

Have you considered a long term food storage project?  We put together a 4 person, 6 month supply for just under $500.  It isn't going to be a gourmet meal, but we won't starve.  We viewed the expense as an insurance premium, and now that it's done, the peace of mind of having a mitigation in the event of a long term disruption was well worth the cost.

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Insurrection
Dogs_In_A_Pile wrote:
Tim_P wrote:

How would our government react to the demand that it stop operation and hand the reins over to a new government?

The second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence tells us what is both our right and duty to do.

Most of us agree about what our rights and duties are.  The question is how will the current government react to being called illegitimate by masses of people.  Somehow I don't think their reaction will be much different than what we are seeing today from authoritarian states across the globe.  If that happens how will the police and military choose sides?   Will the current leadership attempt a false flag operation to try and manufacture legitimacy?

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good point
Dogs_In_A_Pile wrote:
dshields wrote:

Every time we grocrey shop I pick up a few things for my stash in the basement.  I have about 2 weeks of decent food, water, and even stuff for the animals now.  My target is a one month supply.

dshields -

Have you considered a long term food storage project?  We put together a 4 person, 6 month supply for just under $500.  It isn't going to be a gourmet meal, but we won't starve.  We viewed the expense as an insurance premium, and now that it's done, the peace of mind of having a mitigation in the event of a long term disruption was well worth the cost.

I have been giving it some thought.  I have been researching some packages of freeze dried food that are available.  I used to do a lot of backpacking and while the freeze dried food is not wonderful, it seems wonderful if you are hungry enough.

 

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police and military
goes211 wrote:
Dogs_In_A_Pile wrote:
Tim_P wrote:

How would our government react to the demand that it stop operation and hand the reins over to a new government?

The second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence tells us what is both our right and duty to do.

Most of us agree about what our rights and duties are.  The question is how will the current government react to being called illegitimate by masses of people.  Somehow I don't think their reaction will be much different than what we are seeing today from authoritarian states across the globe.  If that happens how will the police and military choose sides?   Will the current leadership attempt a false flag operation to try and manufacture legitimacy?

This is a very good question - maybe "the" question. The police would be very busy chasing down people who would be misbehaving under those circumstances.  I always go back to the Rodney King episode.  I remember a guy on TV who was driving by in a truck and they dragged him out of the truck and beat him unconscious.  Another clip showed a store with a large front window smashed out and many people coming out the window with TVs, stereos, microwaves, etc..  How does being unhappy with a court case equate to stealing TVs ?  It doesn't.  The truth is in the cities of America the only thing that keeps a lid on total chaos is a well equipped and aggressive police force.  If the police go home the cities of America would spiral out of control in just a few days and would become uninhabitable.  Reasonable people would be forced to leave.  I think the police would be very busy if there is a national emergency.  If you do not want to have trouble with the police then don't misbehave or be where other people are misbehaving.

A better question is the military.  In America the military is sworn to defend the constitution.  They are not sworn to defend the current president.  I am sure that military leaders take this seriously.  The military is made up of Americans.  They have the same issues as the rest of us.  They have kids and car payments and bills.  The military would side with the people as long as the people were behaving and adhering to the constitution.  Statists may hate it but the constitution is the law of the land.  The American constitution is the most amazing social contract ever written.  It grants freedom to the people of a civil society and limits the power of government.  As long as we stick to the constitution we will be just fine.  Any politician that tries to get past that will be removed one way or another.

 

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Good point...I don't know
goes211 wrote:
Dogs_In_A_Pile wrote:
Tim_P wrote:

How would our government react to the demand that it stop operation and hand the reins over to a new government?

The second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence tells us what is both our right and duty to do.

Most of us agree about what our rights and duties are.  The question is how will the current government react to being called illegitimate by masses of people.  Somehow I don't think their reaction will be much different than what we are seeing today from authoritarian states across the globe.  If that happens how will the police and military choose sides?   Will the current leadership attempt a false flag operation to try and manufacture legitimacy?

Joel -

The point I was trying to emphasize (obviously I did a poor job) is that it doesn't matter how the government reacts.  What matters is how we react.  The police and military are my neighbors, our kids went to school together, we go to the same church, etc., etc., etc.  I'm pretty sure that a few/some/many/most will end up on "our" side.  Not unlike the Libyan fighter pilots who defected and flew to Malta or the pilots that ejected rather than fire on their countrymen.

But I also think that the government will go to great measures to hold on to the status quo be it through a manufactured crisis or a slow creep of draconian legislation pitched as being in our best interests.  It will be painful, but the depth, degree and duration of the pain is the unknown.  A stubbed toe is painful, so is a compound fracture - I've had both and while you easily get through both, I know which one I'd rather have.

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I don't know

Rick,

I don't think American military or police will shoot on peaceful protesters under any circumstances.  However, how will the police and military act if agent provocateur's start stirring up the crowds into acting more agressively.  All of the sudden those questionable orders might seem like an appropriate response to a lawless mob.  All bets would be off.

I hope and pray we never see what would happen.

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[http://www.youtube.com/watch

 

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I agree that American troops

I agree that American troops would not fire on Americans but they might fire on separatists, revolutionaries, terrorists or extremists.  The goverment may well do what it can to cast protesters in a light that will be difficult for the undecided to empathize with.  Destroy their credibility by planting false information, orchestrate an attack that can be blamed on the separatists.  I'm not suggesting that is what would happen, but it's in the realm of possibility.  They would have to start early, when the uprising was in its infancy though.  To wait would be to let it gain momentum.  It's pretty much what we are seeing in China right now.

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67 shots into a crowd of

67 shots into a crowd of unarmed students. Noone can predict what might happen if we were to see large protests in this country. Hard to deny history.

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Kent State

This is my Fear....It will happen Because it has, its just a matter of when.

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PPO, avoid high population

PPO, avoid high population settings.robie

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