The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

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The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

New article that puts the 1st E in terms of morality.  It's not just a math problem:

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/23067

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It’s been a wild couple of weeks—increasing unemployment, Greek debt crisis, yet another ridiculous bailout, pressure on Goldman Sachs, accusations of commodities manipulation by JP Morgan Chase, and new freakish levels of market volatility that might be signaling the next phase of market collapse.  The many day-to-day issues can leave us dazed and confused, so most people ignore them.  Huge mistake.

They are all related to the most powerful force on earth that controls our lives because it is the very foundation of our society—usury.  We are ruled not by governments anymore but by financial powers that use interest-bearing debt to exert control over governments, corporations, and people. Almost all other political issues with which we concern ourselves are secondary symptoms of or purposeful distractions from this larger narrative that is never reported by the Wall-Street-funded media.  Sadly the church has remained silent as well.

Explaining the details can be extremely complicated, but the basic core to understand is that the US government issues no money.  Instead all money comes from private banking institutions with interest attached.  At times in the past the US government issued real money for people to use—US notes and coins.  But today all money comes from the Federal Reserve’s private banking system by putting the US government, i.e. 308,000,000 Americans, in debt.  If the US government were not in debt to the banking system, the American people would have no money.

More technically, the Fed and its Wall Street cartel banks like JP Morgan Chase and Goldman Sachs make billions by doing nothing but controlling our money.  They have the monopoly license to create the core money in our system from holding US Treasury bonds on their balance sheets.  These bonds represent the debt of the United States. Thanks to interest, the bonds pull a large portion of our wages to the banks. The primary purpose of the IRS is to take your wages to pay the interest back to the banks.  In effect, Wall Street owns a good bit of your labor.  And the more bonds they hold, i.e. the more debt the population is in, the more money they make thanks to the interest flows and the profits from gambling on your debt.  The system is very much one of “us vs. them.”  Such is the nature of monopoly power and usury. 

Economics and Morality

Controlling others and living off their backs by forcing them to borrow with interest in order to have any money is called usury (this does not include standard, self-liquidating bank loans to businesses to fund production). It is a system that ensures everything we do, whether in the public or private sector, feeds Wall Street and the controllers above it.  It creates a two-tiered societal pyramid of money pushers on top vs. money users on bottom.  The power differential is huge.  Everyone is hostage.  In doing something as simple as buying food to survive, we contribute to usury because we only have usury-based money, not real money.  Like the slaves who built the Egyptian pyramids, today we are stuck building an invisible pyramid of monetary power. 

In such a system there is never enough money to pay back all the interest to the money pushers.  The only solution is for the money users—government, corporations, individuals—to borrow more.  This is the reason our debt continues skyrocketing to increasingly insane levels.  It isn’t about politics, but the fundamental exponential math underlying the system—the users must borrow more and more to pay back interest and keep the system afloat.  Such math is guaranteed to fail. Iceland and Greece have reached the point of failure.  The rest of the Europe and the US will experience failure as well.  Then we will see money and assets vacuumed up the pyramid by the money pushers—the banking establishment that owns the collateral and can take your property. 

The exponential math not only creates exponential debt growth, but also exponentially increasing:

  • Scale – government and businesses keep getting bigger; we get smaller and local communities lose their meaning
  • Velocity – the hamster wheel keeps spinning faster; human life suffers
  • Consumption – we buy more and more things that break more quickly
  • Production – we make more and more things that break more quickly
  • Inflation – the dollar buys less and less; we can’t seem to make progress

None of these things have to happen in an economic system.  They only happen in ours because of debt-based money, usury, that greatly benefits the top of the pyramid while everyone else suffers to a certain degree depending on their level in the pyramid.

So this system is guaranteed to fail due to not only the impossible math, but also the fundamental immorality.  Taken together those five issues paint a horrible picture.  Republicans blame Democrats and vice-versa.  Nope.  It’s all a very simple result of a system based on usury, which used to be considered profoundly immoral.  It was a fundamental violation of every major religion.  It still is for Islam, but Christianity succumbed long ago.  They thought a free market economic system would be beneficial, but got snookered into thinking that usury had to be part of that system.  On the contrary, monolithic usury kills the free market. 

Our monetary system is a top-down controlling machine, not a free market.  It is run not by government, but by the most powerful financial interests in the world.  Some people feel in their guts that someone must be stealing from them because they just can’t get ahead no matter how hard they work.  Well that’s because it’s true—someone is legally stealing from them.  The simple math of usury pulls money from people on the bottom of the pyramid who create real value toward those at the top who create no value.  MBAs and others serving the system must reckon with this truth rather than remaining blind.  Farmers understand it well, having lost their property over the years to the bankers.  Families feel it in the fact that it’s difficult to get enough money to feed the kids compared to 50 years ago when one parent could work a standard week and feed a family of five.  Everyone in the system will feel it once the debt system collapses as it is doing in Greece. 

Living off the backs of others was called feudalism 300 years ago.  It was slavery 100 years ago.  Today it’s called the “free market” thanks to the propaganda and fraud of neoclassical economics.  It completely ignores the truth of our monetary system, the math behind it, and the eventual collapse that will result from it.  Greece is giving us a glimpse, but it is only a mild pre-game warmup compared to what’s coming.  The world will rue the day it was ever seduced into accepting usury and the illusion of prosperity driven by nothing but debt. 

The Irrelevant Church

On this issue of monolithic usury, the issue from which many of our other problems spawn, the church seems to have no voice.  Recently, an older church leader told me, “Keep it up, this needs to be addressed, but you have more guts than me, I don’t want to be killed.”  Sobering comment, to be sure, but in the shadow of Gandhi, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Oscar Romero, and Martin Luther King, is the church now impotent?  Are its leaders now too afraid to speak truth to power, to stand against darkness?  Or is the problem that the church is, like most of us, fooled by the myth that we live in a free market so we don’t realize we are immersed in an immoral system of controlling usury? 

Lower class Greek citizens are now learning the painful truth about the mythical free market.  A few of them have died as the police brutally repress them to enforce the usury system for the rich bankers like Goldman Sachs.  Where is the voice of Bishop Romero?  “I order you, stop the repression!”  Iceland learned the lesson a few months ago.  Several other populations have learned the lesson in the past as the controlling debt peddlers punished, conquered, and restructured their countries (Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, India, Argentina, Chile, Mexico, England, etc.).  The same lesson is coming to the rest of Europe and the United States.  But again, the church seems to be oblivious.  It failed to heed Martin Luther King’s warning, “One of the great liabilities of history is that all too many people fail to remain awake…today our very survival depends on our ability to stay awake.”  The church has fallen asleep.

The Dialectic of Left vs. Right

A possible reason is that the church has been co-opted by the manipulative left vs. right civil war created by the corporate media.  In fact, Protestant denominations have split into conservative vs. liberal camps so they war against each other—Wall Street is brilliant at divide and conquer.  Some sermons in conservative denominations sound like speeches from conservative politicians.  Liberal Christian magazines sometimes seem to be just liberal political magazines with an added dash of Jesus. 

Postmodernism should inform us that the left vs. right narrative is contrived to keep people from noticing the real power structure behind Wall Street that controls our lives.  As long as the church submits to the false framework, church leaders will be “safe.”  But that means they will also be irrelevant because they are not speaking to the primary narrative in our world that has always caused problems and is getting ready to unleash far more pain and poverty in the near future—the issue of monolithic usury and debt servitude.  By not speaking against usury, the church has become a pawn of it.  So the church has largely been conquered by the same concocted civil war that has divided society.

Dollar Tyranny

Another reason the church may be silent is the simple fact that it depends on money just like everything else does.  Since all money in our system comes from usury, it is difficult to even notice it.  And what authority would the church have to speak against it since it is itself complicit in it?  Anybody or any organization that uses a Federal Reserve Note or a credit/debit card, which everyone must do, is unknowingly participating in usury because, again, all of that money comes from the bonds held by Wall Street.  But knowingly or not, how could the church or any organization speak against the very thing that fuels its own existence? 

The church’s tax-exempt status may be another reason for the silence.  Tax exemption is one of the powerful ways the financial empire system influences and controls other entities.  If the wrong person says the wrong thing, the IRS has the ability to suddenly remove the exemption, which doubles the cost of running that organization.  The church never should have submitted to such tyranny over what may or may not be said. 

Comfort of the Middle Class Bubble

Finally, it seems the comfort provided by the monetary system for the great mass in the middle, which is a key part of the church, keeps us from wanting to really think about it.  The illusion of peace and prosperity that has lasted for so long has been nice.  Some of us even thought we had that comfort because we were better people, so God blessed us.  Reckoning with the truth will be painful for those who believe this.  The fact is that our perceived comfort today is a result of the darkness of usury.  The middle can only exist because there is a bottom that keeps our system afloat.  They are the only reason the middle class exists.  Moreover, the comfort is currently an illusion because most in the middle class don’t realize how indebted they are.  Total unfunded liabilities currently hidden on the government’s financials put each American in an extra $300,000+ in debt that they currently aren’t aware of.  That debt comes from the fact that, again, our money comes from usury.

Since the bubble was built on usury, its very existence is immoral, and everyone who participates in it becomes infected.  It is also flimsy because usury means the bubble is sustained by debt.  Many are already aware of the hollowness of the bubble since it has destroyed the fabric of our communities and a sense of deeper meaning in life.  But others are able to ignore that and focus on the material comfort.  What will happen to them once the material comfort itself crashes?  It will soon.  Some market forecasters predict the final collapse of our debt system will be worse than the Great Depression.  The math is clear—it will be worse.  Just like Greece, we will then see Wall Street paying the government to crackdown on the people, cancel social programs, and take their assets from them to hand them over to the upper class behind the banks.  That is the end result of usury—using debt to control others and take their assets so they have no equity.  At that point it will be too late for the church to save the lower and middle classes from violent repression and the upper class from their narcissistic detachment from the horror.

“Silence is Betrayal”

So is there a wing of the church that has not yet sold its soul?  Is there a remaining Christian voice against usury, or are Muslims the only people in the world who stand against it?  The church must wake up to the truth of our system and become relevant again.  This is the civil rights issue of the 21st century, only this time it is not black vs. white but a few money pushers vs. the great mass of users.  The power of the bond market is getting ready to wreak havoc.  We’re all in it together this time.  As Martin Luther King said, “There comes a time when silence is betrayal….That time has come for us today.”  Will the real church please speak up?

 

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

Strabes

You are looking for morality in the wrong places. The Vatican has had its money managed by the Rothschilds for a long time. Hell the two might be indistinguishable. NO taxes on church money. They are brilliant. Finance governments collect the taxes. Finance churches don't pay taxes.

Is this a great planet or what.

Excuse me II have to tend to my retirement plan............it is Wednesday and I have to buy my powerball tickets.

V

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

Damon,

Expecting the church to rally against debt based money seems quite optimistic.  We are talking about an issue that is not even clear to many people with PhD's in economics.  Add in the fact that many Christians seem to have bought neo-conservative lies, and at this point are effectively pro-empire and pro-war, and the situation seems completely hopeless.  It just upsets me that so many Christians don't see any contradiction sending their sons off to kill brown people  for Jesus.  Until that changes, I don't see how debt based money will ever be on their radar screen.

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

I'm not looking for the institutional church to step up.  It's compromised as you say V.  In the last sentence I say "the real church," by which I mean individuals.  I'm calling for a bottom-up movement, an MLK movement that bypasses hierarchy.  It has happened before.  I see no reason why "good" cannot rise up again.  I actually think that's the only hope...once people are exposed to the darkness they're living in, I think they will flee to the light.

I know a lot of CM'ers don't want to debate religion here.  Please note I make the secular argument against usury first and then call the church out..."put up or shutup" basically.  We need to avoid dialectical conflict...religionists vs. non-religionists, left vs. right, black vs. white, immigrant vs. citizen, etc. We need to come together to oppose the monetary power of debt-based money that is bringing us all down together.

goes, we think alike...I'm planning a 2nd article on the "irrelevant church" about that very topic.  But I don't agree that people will never see the light.  I just started seeing it 2 years ago...I'm sure there are millions more just like us willing to be pointed in the right direction, and if that happens, game over.

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

excellent article strabes.  Christians definately have been coopted by moral issues, and are blind to the ecomomic rape that is occuring.

 

MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL.....A MAN NEEDS ROOTS!!

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

Damon:

I have great admiration for what you are doing.

Regards this article, I would have left the church out entirely.  You are making a secular argument and I see no reason for bringing up the church since I believe it will just muddy the waters for a lot of people.

For you to hit on morality, however, is a great idea!  There are many types of power - coercive power, political power, economic power and so forth.  The public has no coercive power, virtually no political power and rapidly decreasing economic power.  But the public can cultivate moral power.  If you go back through history, there are numerous examples where moral power has trumped economic power, political power and even coercive power.  So I believe it is good to concentrate on this.  You need to find leverage points to use against the establishment and moral power is a great tool.

One other suggestion - in case readers have not read your other articles or watched your videos - is making a clear distinction between charging interest on money created through the banking system versus money earned that is now being loaned.  Usury, after all, is typically defined as the act of lending money at an unreasonably high interest rate.  If you take some of your income and loan it to a friend, many people (myself included) will see no problem charging reasonable interest - basically a return on your investment.  This is a completely different situation than banks charging interest on money they created when only the principal is being loaned into existence.  You and almost everyone here knows this, but I'm betting that many of your readers won't.

Great article.

Tom

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

Strabes,

Ive been asking myself the same questions that you posit in the article. 99% of the church is dead. In my view, ANY person who speaks out against the usurious ponzi scheme, and is good to his neighbor, is dignified in gods eyes.

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

hi tom, I agree adding the church muddies the waters.  but that was on purpose.  the article was targeted not for this site or the types of econ blogs I also post to, but specifically at that large audience of folks who consider themselves moral, or spiritual, or churchgoers (regardless of religion or denomination) but don't follow economics/markets.  I think that's a huge group of allies that has been left out of the monetary problems because it's never presented in terms of morality.  it's always presented in economic terms, math, spreadsheets, which most people don't care about.  I wanted to make the tie between econ and morality with this article, hoping that others make the connection and then use it in their articles, videos, blogs, discussions, etc. 

I also specifically wanted to convict any church leadership that happens to read the article.  compared to such leaders of old, I think it's a fairly pathetic bunch today...the church has no voice on any of the major issues (this topic, ongoing silent war that has lasted twice as long as WWII, the greatest heist in history, the predatory financial sector, etc).  I already have a couple responses from those types and it seems the article worked...at least with those 2 individuals.  :)  

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

Strabes,

Excellent article and a point that needed addressing.  You have cajones, my man.  Go for it.

V,

I get your drift about the corruption in the Catholic church but understand the point strabes is making (and I'm pretty sure you're aware of it).  The church isn't the building, it's the body (of people that comprise it) ... it's not the ruling stratum of the administrative hierarchy, it's the people at the bottom that form its foundation. 

goes211,

You're right about people with PhDs in economics not understanding these issues.  I've been having interesting discussions with a retired economics professor (Chicago school), a wonderful man BTW, and it's very interesting to me what he knows and what he doesn't know.  He knows the theory but he seems unaware of the real world, down and dirty, "street" economics that many here know all too well.  And for the record, I'm a Christian who has no desire to kill brown boys for Jesus nor do most of the other Christians I know.  Remember who controls the media. 

Strategy Praxis,

Good points.  What do you suggest as the basis for the morality you are discussing?  Your point will be countered by some saying "Whose morality?".  What do you suggest as a reference point?  Most folks here are Americans and, like it or not, the reference point for the majority is Judeo-Christian is origin (and for a few of you Commonwealth folks who are sure to chime in, so is yours).  Damon's reference to the church would therefore (arguably) seem appropriate. 

docmims,

I know you're joking but it's "The LOVE of money is the root of all evil."

BMT,

He likes it better when you capitalize his first name to distinguish him from the other wannabes.       

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

ao

In the "collapse world" the people you talk about at the bottom are called zombies. The church is like this country. We call them sheeple here.

The real power resides with the guys in the  pointy hats and colorful robes. The zombies do not have a clue. Perhaps you and the other Christians you know have no desire to kill brown  people but there sure are a lot of them getting killed by American soldiers who I would have to a assume are mostly Christian. I am sure the owners of the slave ships were good Christians too. Having been raised a Catholic I can speak with some knowledge of the structure. In the 60's the hierarchy preached against the evils of Communism. Cardinal Spellman was a leading hawk during Vietnam. The zombies sit in these churches and listen to the authority figures tell them what to think.

The leaders in the other faiths do the same thing. Billy Graham, Falwell, Robertson, the ministers in the churches where I live all have a vested interest in the status quo. They would suffer greatly if there were a major paradigm shift. They are part of the propaganda machine which keeps the sheeple in line

As for whose morality well how about we start with " do unto others as you would have others do unto you" we could get rid of about a million pages of laws and legal precedents. Every major religion has at its core the spiritual underpinnings of love. It is the same old problem we can all parrot the words but can we live them?

Mohammed once referred to strife, and said " It will appear at the time of knowledge leaving the world" Ziad said ' Oh Messenger of God how will knowledge go from the world since we read the Koran, and teach it to our children, and our children to theirs; and so on till the last day?" Then Mohammed said " Oh Zaid I supposed you the most learned man of Medina, 'Do the Jews and the Christians who  read the Bible and the Evangel act on them?"

The crux of what you are asking Damon is we have been given all the words we have the scriptures of every religion screaming from the mountain tops what it is we are here for and how we are supposed to do it yet we are incapable of living up to those words. I believe somewhere around 90% of the people in this country would say they are Christian yet we have a divorce rate of 50%, we have the largest military the world has ever seen and have been at continuous war since WW2 and we say we are one nation under God.

I wish you well. I am still waiting for divine intervention. Or a sign of morality

V

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church
ao wrote:

And for the record, I'm a Christian who has no desire to kill brown boys for Jesus nor do most of the other Christians I know.  Remember who controls the media. 

My statement "kill brown people for Jesus" was not about media stereotypes but was clearly trying to be sensationalistic.  As a person who was raised in an evengelical church and spent most of his life as a mainstream fiscal conservative Repulbican, what I am trying to point out are the inherent contradictions in the beliefs that many mainstream conservative christians have.

There is very little in the new testament that can be in any way construed as pro-war and yet too many christians I know seem to have no problem with our imperial foreign policy.  They claim to be in favor of limited government but seem all too willing to send their sons off to dangerous far away lands to fight for our freedoms (whatever that means).  How can we have a small limited government and be an imperial power?   How can we have a small limited government and have intrusive anti-drug or anti-terror laws?  How can we fight for our freedom while removing our civil liberties?  Until the church comes to terms with these contradictions, it will not have the moral standing that society needs right now.

I don't know who is at fault for this and 10 years ago years ago I did not see these contradictions myself.  Was this problem caused by the Republican party pandering to conservative christians for their own political end or was it the christians that decided to team up with neo-cons to take over the Republican party?  I really don't know but I do think that it is unhealthly for so many christians to be married to a political party.  Politics is a messy business without much in the way of moral high ground.  It would be far better if religious people of all stripes would hold both parties feet to the fire on issues of importance, than to try and control the political process and be morally compromised in the process.

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

Thanks for the fantastic article strabes. I agree that most religions and clergy have totally missed the moral issue of our age.

Christianity and Judaism once outlawed usury but today it is only the Muslims who take a formal stand against it through "Islamic banking" and the "Islamic Banking Network." Islam prohibits the payment of interest on loans, so observant Muslims require specialized alternative arrangements from their banks. Earlier I posted an article about the success of Islamic banks, see "Would Islamic finance have prevented the global financial crisis?"

Could this be one of the reasons that Muslims are constantly being attacked by the west?

The bible clearly denounces usury (collection of interest) as being an unholy practice.  Banks and brothels were considered sinful places though I would suggest that a piano player in a brothel is certainly more respectable than a executive in a bank.  The Prophet Ezekiel includes usury in a list of “abominable things,” along with rape, murder, robbery and idolatry. Ezekiel 18:19-13.

Plato and Aristotle believed usury was immoral and unjust. The Greeks at first regulate interest, and then deregulate it. After deregulation, there was so much unregulated debt that Athenians were sold into slavery and threatened revolt.  Aristotle wrote “There are two sorts of wealth-getting, as I have said; one is a part of household management, the other is retail trade: the former necessary and honorable, while that which consists in exchange is justly censured; for it is unnatural, and a mode by which men gain from one another. The most hated sort, and with the greatest reason, is usury, which makes a gain out of money itself, and not from the natural object of it. For money was intended to be used in exchange, but not to increase at interest. And this term interest, which means the birth of money from money, is applied to the breeding of money because the offspring resembles the parent. Wherefore of any modes of getting wealth this is the most unnatural.”

To be fair, there is a Catholic group that understands usury and mathematics, they are headquartered in Quebec. They call themselves the "Pilgrims of Saint Michael" and their website is/was the "Michael Journal." Maybe they are down for repairs as I was unable to link to their site just now. Anyways, they explain the mathematical certainty of massive defaults that inevitably result from a debt based system. They have many articles from true monetary reformers like Thomas Edison, Luis Even, Wright Patman and others. They also include articles about the NWO and the global banking take-over.

Christian churches in particular; preach Zionism (neocons) and justify aggressive wars against Muslims.  Just a few weeks ago, a number of Christian leaders wrote a letter urging Congress to implement tough new sanctions against Iran.  "We write to you today as Christian leaders, deeply concerned about Iran obtaining nuclear weapons, and urge you to bring sanctions legislation out of conference committee and to final passage immediately." 

Many of these same Christians aggressively pursue the rights of unborn children through their pro-life stance but yet, not a one of them seems to be concerned that our children are being enslaved in debt at birth.  As strabes mentioned, each citizen, including newborns, is in debt of over $300,000 for future liabilities and the national debt.   

Besides being outlawed as a parasitic load on the producing people and their families, usury was outlawed because the exponential growth of debt was understood. David Astle's "The Babylonian Woe" is a wonderful book that explains some of the history and mechanics of money in antiquity.  Usury, and interest that cannot be repaid, was understood even in antiquity.

In the book, Astle explains that "the creation and issuance of money constitutes free gift to the issuer when such issuer be private person. It automatically and immediately despoils he who thinks himself to have money or to be a person of worth. It is an indirect and hidden form of taxation no less than any other such indirect or hidden tax.  Levied in an unseen manner by those private persons who supposedly make the so-called loan to the government, its effects are not understood by the people, nor its origin.

...there is the absurdity of an interest rate, parallel to that of previous so-called loans, which creates a yearly interest bill which in itself necessitates further such borrowing, without ever thinking of paying off the principal; such system necessarily compels a government that has been trained to unquestioned acceptance of its financial liabilities to be servant in some considerable degree of those private persons, its supposed benefactors."

Many Americans certainly understood un-payable interest and the growth of debt even back in the 1700's.  For example, on February 9, 1790, Georgia Congressman James Jackson explained the exponential growth of debt that a private banking system, in lieu of issuing our own money would mean in a congressional speech:

"Gentlemen may come forward, perhaps and tell me, that funding the public debt will increase the circulating medium of the country, by means of its transferable quality: but this is denied by the best informed men. The funding of the debt will occasion enormous taxes for the payment of interest. These taxes will bear heavily, both on agriculture and commerce. It will be charging the active and industrious citizen...to pay the indolent and idle creditor. In the proportion that it benefits the one, it will depress the other....

I contend that a funding system in this country will be highly dangerous to the welfare of the Republic; it may, for a moment, raise our credit, and increase our circulation by multiplying a new species of currency; but it must hereafter settle upon our posterity a burden which they can neither bear nor relieve themselves from. It will establish a precedent in America that may, and in all probability will, be pursued by the sovereign authority, until it brings upon us that ruin which it has never failed to bring. Let us take warning by the errors of Europe, and guard against the introduction of a system followed by calamities so general. Though our present debt be but a few million, in the course of a single century it may be multiplied to an extent we dare not think of (Annals of congress, Vol. I, February 1790:1141 -1142)."

Famous 1903 photograph of J. P. Morgan by Edward Steiglitz seemingly holding a knife and not a chair arm?

Larry

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

Happend to go to Church today and the sermon was on Money.   One topic that came up was a parable that Jesus said in Matthews 25:14-30 called "The Parable of the Talents"

The Parable of the Talents

 14"Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. 15To one he gave five talents[a] of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. 17So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. 18But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.

 19"After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.'

 21"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

 22"The man with the two talents also came. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.'

 23"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

 24"Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.'

 26"His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

 28" 'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

It seems clear from this passage that Jesus does not have a problem with interest charged on deposited money because he actually calls the servant that does not deposit his masters money with the bankers wicked and lazy.

Any anti-usury people care to explain?

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

goes211, even though you are "pro-usury" I think you make a strong case that goes towards the point that strabes makes...churches are irrelevant when it comes to explaining the evils of usury. 

Not sure which church you attend but I think your priest or grand witch should have better explained the concept of usury.  Maybe you slept through this part? 

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church
DrKrbyLuv wrote:

goes211, even though you are "pro-usury" I think you make a strong case that goes towards the point that strabes makes...churches are irrelevant when it comes to explaining the evils of usury. 

Larry,

I don't consider myself pro-usury but pro-reality.  I am against debt based money and certainly against charging interest on money created out of thin air by the banking system.  However as I have said in many other threads I have no problem with interest being charged when real capital is put at risk.  Why would those with capital ever loan out that capital if they could not receive principle + interest.   Would you loan out capital if the best case was you get your capital back?  If that were the case, why not just sit on it?  How do you compensate creditors for the default risk they face if not through interest?  Any one that denies this is denying reality.

DrKrbyLuv wrote:

Not sure which church you attend but I think your priest or grand witch should have better explained the concept of usury.  Maybe you slept through this part? 

Seriously grand witch?  There you go again, raising the level of the debate.  I really don't know what to think about your recent posting other than to think you may have run off the rails...

ps.  It was a baptist church and the topic was not pro-usury but about tithes and offerings.  That parable was only mentioned in passing but when I read it at home, it seem relevant to the discussion.

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

When you save money you are saving your time, time that you used to generate the money. So when you lend money at interest you are merely charging for your time.

Are wages or profits wrong too, they are both a payment for your time?

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

Speaking of churches...thought some might enjoy...

 

The War Prayer

by Mark Twain

It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener.

It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.

Sunday morning came -- next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams -- visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation...

God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest! Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!

Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory --

An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!"

The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the startled minister did -- and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:

"I come from the Throne -- bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import -- that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of -- except he pause and think.

"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two -- one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this -- keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.

"You have heard your servant's prayer -- the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it -- that part which the pastor -- and also you in your hearts -- fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. the whole of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory -- must follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved fire sides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

[After a pause. ] "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! -- The messenger of the Most High waits!"

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

gregroberts wrote:

When you save money you are saving your time, time that you used to generate the money. So when you lend money at interest you are merely charging for your time.

Are wages or profits wrong too, they are both a payment for your time?

Hello greg,

Usury and morality can be a complicated topic which I think is why strabes suggested that it should be expanded upon by churches and philosophers.  To their credit, Muslims have put a lot of time and thought into the premise of usury while we in the west generally dismiss it as irrelevant while in fact our churches and we are becoming irrelevant.

I think we often look at usury in over-simplistic terms. For example, we usually think of the old definition of usury as collecting interest on debt.  Eventually, in some churches, usury was thought to be interest at an excessive rate and maximums were imposed.  In the U.S. for example, there were once state laws limiting the amount of interest that could be charged on credit cards.  V.P. and banking dupe Joe Biden was successful in attacking these laws on the Federal level which opened the door to the 30% rates we see today.

Anyways, here is a discussion on the different types of usury and how they may oppress people...A Short Review of the Historical Critique of Usury  

Usury as Unearned Income

"The Church's simplest and perhaps earliest objection to usury was on the basis that it constituted unearned income, an idea which stemmed from its general doctrine of Just Price. The Lateran Council of 1515 clearly expressed such a view of the Church: “This is the proper interpretation of usury when gain is sought to be acquired from the use of a thing, not in itself fruitful (such as a flock or a field) without labour, expense or risk on the part of the lender.

This is also the rationale Ahmad uses to explain why in Islam God “permits trade yet forbids usury”: “The difference is that profits are the result of initiative, enterprise and efficiency. They result after a definite value-creating process. Not so with interest”; also “interest is fixed, profit fluctuates. In the case of interest you know your return and can be sure of it. In the case of profit you have to work to ensure it” (1958: 25). Perhaps Aristotle had similar sentiments in mind when he argued that “a piece of money cannot beget another”.

There is an important psycho-political dimension to this argument. Keynes’ biographer, Skidelsky, intriguingly comments that “Keynes’s sense that, at some level too deep to be captured by mathematics, ‘love of money’ as an end, not a means, is at the root of the world’s economic problem” Hence, at a fundamental level of analysis, the so-called evils of usury must be understood as being connected with money being a social psychological construct legitimised by the power dynamics of a given political economy which may or may not be democratically and consciously legitimatised.

Usury is what marks the distinction between money being simply a socially contracted abstract mechanism to lubricate between supply and demand, and money as an end in itself. As an end in itself, as a social commodity legitimised through usury to tax other economic activity, the honest process of living by the sweat of one’s brow is short-circuited. The true dignity and full reward of ordinary labour is compromised. Money thus becomes self-perpetuating power in itself rather than just a mediating agent of power. And it is the relentlessness of compound interest in the face of adversity that sets the potential cruelty of usury apart from equity-based return on investment.

Usury as Double Billing

A slightly more obscure rationale was employed by the Church later in the Middle Ages in order to strengthen its anti-usury doctrine. Drawing on some of the concepts of Civil Law, it argued that money was a consumable good (fungible), for which the ownership passed from lender to borrower in the course of the loan transaction (mutuum), with the fair price of ‘sale’ therefore being the exact amount of the money advanced. Hence to ask for more in the form of interest was illegal and immoral, “like selling a loaf of bread and then charging in addition for the use of it”

Usury as Exploitation of the Needy

Sir Sayyed’s school in Islam similarly interprets riba as “the primitive form of money-lending when money was advanced for consumptional purposes” (Ahmed, 1958: 21). In the Indian tradition, this understanding of usury can be also found, as is evident from this twentieth century quote: “It is Usury - the rankest, most extortionate, most merciless Usury - which eats the marrow out of the bones of the raiyat [cultivators] and condemns him to a life of penury and slavery"

“It's like being caught, gotcha, and then they [the banks/lenders] start winding you in”. Hence, the poor have to sweat doubly so that the rich might live on interest.  “Capital needed by the debtor nations to improve their standard of living now has to be used for interest payments on their debts”. For now, it is only worth pointing out to critics of the Islamic interest-free banking system that if sovereign debt during the 1970’s had been advanced on an equity investment basis, debtor countries would not have been caught on the rack of compounding interest at rates established by non-domestic macroeconomic factors.

Of course, the fact that much sovereign debt comprised recycled dollars from oil producing Moslem countries is an irony, and a disgrace, that should escape notice no more than eyes should be averted to the hypocricy of usury-promoting countries such as Britain and the United States whose leaders often proclaim Christian values. Be that as it may, by applying the Islamic approach, a lot of human misery could have been avoided. Applying the same principle, this could be the case for the countless individuals and enterprises caught in the trap of impoverishment through non-sovereign debt.

Usury as a Mechanism of Inequitable Redistribution of Wealth

The observation that usury acts as a mechanism by which 'the rich get richer and the poor get poorer' is common to several traditions. Islam rejects financial interest on the basis that it contradicts the Principle of Distributive Equity which its political economy strives to enshrine: “Interest in any amount acts in transferring wealth from the assetless section of the population.” Coming from a totally different perspective as a self declared ‘individualist’, Birnie reaches a similar conclusion: “Interest, by making capital a quasi-monopoly, effectually prevents the establishment of a true competitive system.”

Kennedy provides some excellent empirical evidence of this phenomenon which relates to Germany in 1982. She shows that, while the poorest 2.5 million households paid out (net) DM 1.8 billion in interest, the richest 2.5 million households received (net) DM 34.2 billion. She even goes on to suggest that this covert redistributive mechanism technically works against the constitutional rights of the individual in most countries given that money is a government service to which the public should have equal access.

Usury as an Agent of Economic Instability

Gesell’s main objection to interest is that it is an endemic factor in the instability of interest-based economies, i.e. the cycles of boom and bust, recession and recovery. Similarly, Ahmad, arguing from an Islamic perspective, claims “the greatest problem in the capitalist economy is that of the crises [and] interest plays a peculiar part in bringing about the crises”

Usury as Discounting the Future

The last reason cited for condemning usury relates to the concept and practice of discounting future values. Because compound interest results in an appreciation in invested monetary capital, it is presumed rational for people to prefer having a specified amount of currency now than the same amount some time in the future. This simple and rarely questioned logic has several disastrous implications. For instance, Pearce and Turner note that discounting affects the rate at which we use up natural resources - the higher the discount rate (derived partly from the interest rate), the faster the resources are likely to be depleted. Daly and Cobb take this observation to its logical conclusion and show that discounting can lead to the “economically rational” extinction of a species, simply if the prevailing interest rate happens to be greater than the reproduction rate of the exploited species.

In this context it is fitting to observe that a key feature that distinguishes financial economy from nature’s economy is that the one operates on a compound interest basis, whereas the other is based on simple interest. Money deposited in the bank may yield 10% plus interest on the compounded sum next year, but in nature, if you leave this year’s crop of apples on the tree, you are unlikely to pick a compoundedly heavier crop next year! Accordingly, usury permits a disjunction between financial and ecological economy. The result is either the progressive destruction of nature, or in the absence of redistributive social justice, an inbuilt necessity for periodic financial crashes throughout history. The point is well made by the illustration that if Judas Iscariot had invested his thirty pieces of silver at just a few percentage points compound, repayable in silver as of today, the amount of silver required would be equivalent to the weight of the Earth.

It also violates an age old percept of right livelihood which flies in the face of the presumption of time value of money on which interest rates are based: that is, it violates the presumption of many traditional land users that the land should be handed on to the next generation in at least as good heart as it was inherited from the forebears. Discounting, as the counterpoint of usury, can be thus exposed as rueful device employed to justify theft of the children’s future.

Larry

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

goes, the problem with proof-texting is it never conveys the total message.  it's impossible to claim Mt 25 should be taken on its face as endorsing ravenous greed and ruthlessly punishing the weak (what the text says) because it goes against the other 99.9999% of the bible.  taken that way, Blankfein was correct that he's doing God's work.  but I hardly think Mt 25 is basically a TV commercial for Goldman Sachs.  as usual parables never mean what they seem on first glance.  the key to that parable is vs 24.  if it was a parable about a master remotely resembling Jesus, do you think it would refer to him as a hard man, a man who steals (harvests where he has not sown)?  that's the hidden definition of usury.  this master is a slavemaster. the parable is providing a glimpse of what life on earth will be like at the time he returns.

in my view, and the general view of teachings across all religions, the problem with usury is the issue of power and control.  it's not about the interest itself. it's the human bondage that comes from a system like ours that puts everyone in monolithic bondage with no escape from a system of money based entirely on borrowed obligation to the capital holders at the top.  this is very different than taking an individual loan from somebody who wants a return.  it's about pyramid building.  we're in precisely the situation the ancient hebrews were in from which they were saved in the exodus. 

 

 

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

 

I agree with you there strabes.     The government borrows  on behalf of future generations  of taxpayers, who will pay.      In this system  it is clear who has the power and control and who is in  bondage.

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church
strabes wrote:

goes, the problem with proof-texting is it never conveys the total message.  it's impossible to claim Mt 25 should be taken on its face as endorsing ravenous greed and ruthlessly punishing the weak (what the text says) because it goes against the other 99.9999% of the bible.  taken that way, Blankfein was correct that he's doing God's work.  but I hardly think Mt 25 is basically a TV commercial for Goldman Sachs.  as usual parables never mean what they seem on first glance.  the key to that parable is vs 24.  if it was a parable about a master remotely resembling Jesus, do you think it would refer to him as a hard man, a man who steals (harvests where he has not sown)?  that's the hidden definition of usury.  this master is a slavemaster. the parable is providing a glimpse of what life on earth will be like at the time he returns.

in my view, and the general view of teachings across all religions, the problem with usury is the issue of power and control.  it's not about the interest itself. it's the human bondage that comes from a system like ours that puts everyone in monolithic bondage with no escape from a system of money based entirely on borrowed obligation to the capital holders at the top.  this is very different than taking an individual loan from somebody who wants a return.  it's about pyramid building.  we're in precisely the situation the ancient hebrews were in from which they were saved in the exodus. 

 

 

Damon,

I never said that this passage was endorsing ravenous greed and that is not at all what I think it means. The context in the sermon was that god owns everything and we are just gods caretakers. I think the moral was we are not just to leave what we are given idle and instead put it to productive use for god.

I realize that usury means different things to differnet people. Maybe I don't understand what usury means in this context but what I was trying to point out is that Jesus seemed to imply that bank interest was a productive use of the money.

Do you have another take on what this means?

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

goes211 wrote:

I think the moral was we are not just to leave what we are given idle and instead put it to productive use for god. I realize that usury means different things to differnet people. Maybe I don't understand what usury means in this context but what I was trying to point out is that Jesus seemed to imply that bank interest was a productive use of the money. Do you have another take on what this means?

Maybe you should ask the high priest at your church about usury and Jesus?

In our situation, we have the following circumstances:

  1. Banks create money for virtually free simply because they have a monopoly to do so...then they charge interest even though it is not their money that they are lending.
  2. Collectively, the interest cannot be repaid so many will have to default.
  3. The exponential growth of debt will eventually collapse the economy, it is inevitable as we are witnessing now.

Given the above, ask if he/she considers this to be usury.  It will be interesting to see if they have a clue.

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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church
DrKrbyLuv wrote:

Maybe you should ask the high priest at your church about usury and Jesus?

In our situation, we have the following circumstances:

  1. Banks create money for virtually free simply because they have a monopoly to do so...then they charge interest even though it is not their money that they are lending.
  2. Collectively, the interest cannot be repaid so many will have to default.
  3. The exponential growth of debt will eventually collapse the economy, it is inevitable as we are witnessing now.

Given the above, ask if he/she considers this to be usury.  It will be interesting to see if they have a clue.

  1. At baptist churches there are no "high priests", only pastors.
  2. I don't need the opinion of a religious figure to know that the current system is wrong an immoral. It should be self evident.
  3. I don't disagree with any of your three points so to argue about them amounts to a red herring.
  4. Just because I don't have a problem with interest charged on loans of REAL capital does not make me a defender of the current system.
  5. My real issue with your anti-usury opinion is that it seems to me that you believe all of the evils in the system are caused by the charging of interest.  I think that is far to simplistic and interest will be a necessary feature of any system to reward savers and punish debtors.   To believe that interest should never be charged you must not believe that there is such a thing as time value of money which I think is unrealistic.
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Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

No doubt Muslims have been the leaders in the fight against usury but I thought it might be refreshing to see that there is still a living pulse from at least a couple of Christian groups.  Many have suggested that the western war and genocide against Islam is at least partially based on the fact that Islam forbids usury.

For example, Ellen Brown, Web of Debt, wrote an article a couple years ago entitled "BEHIND THE DRUMS OF WAR WITH IRAN: NUCLEAR WEAPONS OR COMPOUND INTEREST?  

Compound Interest: Financial Weapon of Mass Destruction

Around 1980, when interest rates were soaring, Johnny Carson quipped on The Tonight Show that "Scientists have developed a powerful new weapon that destroys people but leaves buildings standing – it's called the 17% interest rate." Compound interest is the secret weapon that has allowed a global banking cartel to control most of the resources of the world.

The devastating impact on Third World debtors was underscored by President Obasanjo of Nigeria, speaking in 2000 about his country's mounting burden to international creditors. He said:

All that we had borrowed up to 1985 was around $5 billion, and we have paid about $16 billion; yet we are still being told that we owe about $28 billion. That $28 billion came about because of the injustice in the foreign creditors' interest rates. If you ask me what is the worst thing in the world, I will say it is compound interest.

What bankers call the "miracle" of compound interest is called "usury" under Islamic law and is considered a crime. It was also a crime under Old English law until the sixteenth century, when Martin Luther redefined the offense of "usury" to mean the taking of "excess" interest. Modern Islamic thinkers are not averse to a profitable return on investment when it takes the form of "profit-sharing," with investors taking some risk and sharing in business losses; but the usurer gets his interest no matter what. In fact he does better when the borrower fails. The borrower who cannot afford to pay off his loans sinks deeper and deeper into debt, as interest compounds annually to the lender.

The Private Global Banking Scheme

It is this debt scheme, with its lethal weapon of interest compounded annually, that has allowed a small clique of financiers to dominate the business of the world. In Tragedy and Hope, Professor Carroll Quigley wrote from personal knowledge of this financial clique, which he called simply "the international bankers." Dr. Quigley, who was Bill Clinton's mentor at Georgetown University, said the aim of the international bankers was "nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole," a system "to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements." The key to the bankers' success was that they would control and manipulate the money systems of the world while letting them appear to be controlled by governments.

At a 1968 meeting of the secretive globalist group known as the Bilderbergers, a U.S. official named George Ball spoke of creating a "world company." Ball was U.S. Undersecretary of State for Economic Affairs and a managing director of banking giants Lehman Brothers and Kuhn Loeb. The "world company" was to be a new form of colonialism, in which global assets would be acquired by economic rather than military coercion. The "company" would extend across national boundaries, aggressively engaging in mergers and acquisitions until the assets of the world were subsumed under one privately-owned corporation, with nation-states subservient to a private international central banking system.

When Dominoes Won't Fall

Iran was among the few nations to have escaped this global privatization scheme. Iran had its own oil, and it managed to avoid the trap of speculative currency devaluation by imposing foreign exchange restrictions and price controls on its currency, something it could do because it had adequate foreign exchange reserves from its oil sales.

Islamic scholars have been seeking to devise a global banking system that would serve as an alternative to the usury-based scheme now in control internationally, and Iran has led the way in devising that model. Iran is characterized as a democratic Islamic republic, which enforces Islamic principles not only morally but legally and politically.

The size of the stakes was suggested by Tarek El Diwany, a British expert in Islamic finance and the author of The Problem with Interest (2003). In a presentation at Cambridge University in 2002, he quoted a 1997 United Nations Human Development Report which said:

Relieved of their annual debt repayments, the severely indebted countries could use the funds for investments that in Africa alone would save the lives of about 21 million children by 2000 and provide 90 million girls and women with access to basic education.

The threat posed by Iran's alternative economic model will be obliterated by blasting it back into the Stone Age.

So, it would appear that Iran stands in the way of the international banking cartel's plot to takeover the world with debt.  I don't trust Iranian President Ahmadinejad but if indeed he is fighting the international banking cartel then our preference should rest with Iran and free banking over the international banking cartel's web of debt.  The issue is national soviergnty versus rule by criminal bankers.

Earlier I mentioned an ongoing group of Catholics (began in the 1930's I think)  who have been against  usury.  I tried to link to the website but it was down for repairs.  So here is that link again: Official site of the “Michael” Journal - it is very encouraging to see a religious group with some backbone and sense!

Money is the license to live

...money is the license to live for the individual: having no money means certain death in a short term. Those who hold the power to create money — the Bankers — therefore literally control our lives.

“This power becomes particularly irresistible when exercised by those who, because they hold and control money, are able also to govern credit and determine its allotment, for that reason supplying, so to speak, the lifeblood to the entire economic body, and grasping, as it were, in their hands the very soul of production, so that no one dare breathe against their will...the State has become a slave, bound over to the service of human passion and greed,” to the service of the money powers.

Some "DrKrbyLuv" recommended reading from the site:

We are still using a feudalistic money system today, based on usury!

The international banking cartel controls government, people, commerce and media.

Larry

Carl Veritas's picture
Carl Veritas
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 23 2008
Posts: 294
Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

 

The federal debt cieling is around $13 Trillion,   but the unfunded liabilities of the federal government exceeds $59 Trillion.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-05-28-federal-budget_N.htm

  In case Larrys dog and pony show  above caused a misdirection---

Here is stating the obvious:The hated banking cartel did not make those promises,    the government did.    And neither would pay for it,  that would be left to future generations of taxpayers.    Which religion on this earth believes in the notion that if taxpayers voted to allow Obama,  Reid and Pelosi to create money, our financial troubles will finally be solved?   Why they could simply create the money and fund it all.   What genius.

Real reform would involve preventing  both  banker and government from manipulating the peoples money.   Amusing cartoons though.

My favorite part in  the movie Speed,  is when  the villain character played by  Dennis Hopper warns Jack (Keanu Reeves):

"Do not attempt to grow a brain!"

strabes's picture
strabes
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 7 2009
Posts: 1032
Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

Carl, governments are hostage to debt-based money which requires exponential growth.  Revisit the 1st E.  The only way to keep this afloat is to keep borrowing more.  This system was designed by bankers.  Media rags like USA Today just report symptoms, not causes, because they're either too stupid or controlled to understand the cause.  But CC grads should understand it. 

Governments indeed deserve blame because they keep using this insane system thereby committing slow suicide.  But as long as they don't fix the monetary system, blaming them for increasing debt is inaccurate...it's a necessary component of the system...they MUST do it.

 

 

ericg's picture
ericg
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Mar 23 2010
Posts: 101
Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

it's about pyramid building.  we're in precisely the situation the ancient hebrews were in from which they were saved in the exodus.

 

So this is Exodus and we're looking for our Moses ? Not that I'm making lite of this but this struck me as funny (admittedly I have a weird sense of humor) Great thread BTW

ericg's picture
ericg
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Mar 23 2010
Posts: 101
Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

I always thought that the Parable of the Talents was about the TRUTH. The servants were given the Truth, one spread it amoungst 5 others, one spread it amoungst 2 others, and the last one buried the Truth. So even if he had given the Truth to the Banksters maybe some of the truth would have been revealed. Of course it is from the Bible and I think there can be many lessons learned from one parable.

goes211's picture
goes211
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 18 2008
Posts: 1114
Re: The Coming Crash: Usury and the Irrelevant Church

Jesus clearly is not in favor of greed or materialism.  For an alternative analysis of this parable and a similar one in Luke check out this link.

http://bible.org/seriespage/parable-talents-matthew-2514-30-luke-1912-28

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