Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply

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Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply

Mike, Rosemary, its 3 minutes and 20 seconds. Is that short enough for your dial-up and 1 gig networks?Wink

Take Care,

Paul

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Re: Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply

Vanityfox451,

I know some of what you throw out here is "tongue-in-cheek", but it seems to me that there is a broad trend in your contributions to "throwing out the baby with the bath water".

Bottom line, we can't all "return to the land". While our agrarian world was a simpler world in many respects, it was also a hard-scrabble world as well. Civilization, as we currently know it, has brought myriad benefits to the population at large.

As with all tribal groupings (large and small), there are those who create problems for the rest of us. As a society, we deal with them as best we can (throw the bad ones in jail, try to rehabilitate others). This is no reason to disparage society at large for the failings of the few.

If it suits you to return to an agrarian life-style, I wish you all the best and I hope you are content. However, it is not an approach suitable for all of us. Frankly, I'm quite happy living in my little house amongst others in my neighborhood. At 65 years young, the idea of trying to become a farmer leaves me cold - besides, my body wouldn't be too happy either!  Yell

If things fall apart down the road, I will have to deal with it as best I can. Unfortunately, my financial circumstances do not permit me to buy a farm house with acres of land for growing food and raising livestock as well as stocking up on all kinds of weapons and obtaining a years supply of food. I'm sure this pertains to a lot of other readers of these forums.

I think my message is intended for all the readers of these forums. That each of us should choose what works best for us under the circumstances and that no one should disparage the choices of others - no matter how light-hearted your presentation.

That said, I wish everyone well and hope that each of you finds the answers that best fit your individual situation. 

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Re: Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply

Hi Paul

Seeing as you clearly targeted me as an audience, and that we are 'on the same page', I trusted you this was worth watching and bit the bullet......  LOVED IT!

Cynical as it was, there is a real message there.......  Sam?

I can and do appreciate your position Sam, and frankly, I don't envy you.  You are only seven or eight years older than me, and already I appreciate that in seven or eight years time I will not be able to all the things I do now (except hopefully tap away at this keyboard! :-) )  I am so glad I started early enough.  I have to say I feel really really lucky to have worked out all this crapola a long time ago, and am so relieved I reacted in time to do something about it, especially for our kids....

All I could think about as I was watching that clip is that soon, it will all play BACKWARDS...  You say we can't all go back to the land, but in fact we will have little choice, now we are overpopulated beyond belief.  There is in fact enough land, and managed very very carefully, we could pull it off, but of course TPTB will need to finally accept the fact that this Matrix cannot continue.  Unlike our government who yesterday announced that the way out of a debt crisis is to go into debt to the tune of $200B.

All I can say is that I would never trade my new lifestyle for my old one.  I've never felt wealthier (with no money), and I've never felt more free either...

Abandon the Matrix!

Mike

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Re: Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply

Cheers Mike,

Glad you got it in context...Wink

My Best,

Paul

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Re: Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply
Damnthematrix wrote:

Hi Paul

Seeing as you clearly targeted me as an audience, and that we are 'on the same page', I trusted you this was worth watching and bit the bullet......  LOVED IT!

Cynical as it was, there is a real message there.......  Sam?

I can and do appreciate your position Sam, and frankly, I don't envy you.  You are only seven or eight years older than me, and already I appreciate that in seven or eight years time I will not be able to all the things I do now (except hopefully tap away at this keyboard! :-) )  I am so glad I started early enough.  I have to say I feel really really lucky to have worked out all this crapola a long time ago, and am so relieved I reacted in time to do something about it, especially for our kids....

All I could think about as I was watching that clip is that soon, it will all play BACKWARDS...  You say we can't all go back to the land, but in fact we will have little choice, now we are overpopulated beyond belief.  There is in fact enough land, and managed very very carefully, we could pull it off, but of course TPTB will need to finally accept the fact that this Matrix cannot continue.  Unlike our government who yesterday announced that the way out of a debt crisis is to go into debt to the tune of $200B.

All I can say is that I would never trade my new lifestyle for my old one.  I've never felt wealthier (with no money), and I've never felt more free either...

Abandon the Matrix!

Mike

Mike - I do realize there's a real message there - and I do "get it"!

However,
after being bombarded with this message continually, I must admit it gets a bit
wearing - especially since there is little that I, and many others like me, can
actually do about it.

I do envy you somewhat. If, 10 years ago, life had presented me with a level of awareness that you had, I would have made a more sincere effort to compensate. Would I have gone "back to the land" as you have done? Probably not. In spite of having obtained sufficient merit badges to attain "Star Scout" status as a youth, I'm not the rugged individual that you are. I admire you for what you have accomplished and I truly respect what you are doing and your message ("Abandon the Matrix!")

Regrettably, my family is not in the same space as yours. I don't know how much effort it took to convince your family that the choice you made was right and necessary - probably not much, I suspect. However, if I were to suggest to my immediate family doing exactly what you have done, they would be quickly working on obtaining a court order to have me committed!

Were I younger and single, I would be looking to find a small village somewhere that would allow me to obtain a simpler and more reliable life style away from "The Matrix". Like you, I could easily be content with little. I have never had the ambition to be rich - even as a young lad I can remember wanting only enough to be comfortable. Excess wealth always turned me off.

However, I must disagree with you and Paul in one area - the part where you say we will have little choice but to return to the land. A concept that Paul also espouses (and has done so in Hungary).

1. To disburse over 6.75 billion people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population) in an organized fashion and turn them all back into farmers would be an impossible task. It was tried to a lesser extent in Cambodia after the Vietnam war and we all know how that turned out. Mind you, if you're looking for a vicious, nasty way to reduce the population that would be one approach.

2. There is no need to throw the baby out with the bath water. I agree that we will soon run out of oil. I disagree that this will turn the world into a "Mad Max" scenario when the last drops are consumed. Mankind has always been, and will continue to be, ingenious at finding solutions to problems. Granted it will be a tough slog digging ourselves out of this hole, but I believe humans will adapt as they always have. Look at the historical record of Depressions - while ugly, society as a whole did not collapse and civilization eventually moved forward.

3. People will find different solutions to the problems that present themselves. You chose the one you think is best for you (as did Paul) - and I say more power to you both. I have chosen a less dramatic path. Others will choose some variation in between. To constantly shout out that the "sky is falling" to every visitor to PeakProsperity.com does a disservice to all. However, I do agree wholeheartedly with members presenting options that can be taken - as the old saying goes, "Knowledge is power".

Do I approve of what my government is doing? No. I think they are being foolhardy in the extreme and I wish there was a way we could disband Congress in its entirety and start over with some intelligent people who don't wander about with their feet stuck in their mouths 24/7! I note that Australia and the UK (and many other countries) are currently saddled with the same burdens. Apparently you have to have a certain mind set to want to participate in the insanity of the political world. I'm happy to report that I don't - although I do kibitz the evening news mercilessly!  Wink

I think my earlier comment in post #1 above conveys it best:

I think my message is intended for all the readers of these forums.
That each of us should choose what works best for us under the
circumstances and that no one should disparage the choices of others -
no matter how light-hearted your presentation. 

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Re: Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply

Sam,

Wonderfully put. You and I are worlds apart, but I genuinely respect your approach and agree the sky will not fall. There will be tough times ahead for sure, and we all deserve the right to choose the way we approach them.

Good luck!

Rog

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Re: Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply

Sam,

I think you're a brave man, that much I'm certain; you place yourself at the mercy of others with knowledge and fortitude and you're sure you're correct in your assumptions.

You read through this madness thats happening to the world every day and you know there is a war building up just in the background of the news; out on the sidelines; offside somewhere in amongst all that grand optimism that you choose to use as a weapon so you can sleep safe in the knowledge that you're right. But I'm not buying any of it.

There is absolutely nil opportunity that this globe is going to remain intact with some wonderous new invention that'll save us all to die another day and you know that fact cleanly, yet you'll go along with the majority and they'll claim you as their voice of reasoning because the group think love the way you phrase things; love the way you always make yourself so accountable, a dedicated powerhouse of half truths and slight of hand to keep a footing.

What you've written is only based on the facts that came before all of this, where you've lived most of your life and where there was more certainty. Where you've lived, people can live in a bubble of denial within CNN and Fox News, deconfiguring and reconfiguring the facts until they're bloated out of context and less of a bitter pill to swallow.

I think your window on the world is made small to disguise the view and that has been an opportunity for you. Yes, grave things have happened in your life for you to attain the lines of maturity, but thats because that window of the world is your window and an obscured window of what this world is becoming. Give me reality Sam, it gives me less of a target to swing at.

Where is the food for that 6.7 billion people without oil? What of the intensifying weather patterns and rising sea levels? What of the weak strained animals we've been breeding with toxins and feeding them to themselves like some canibalistic orgy, are they going to survive healthy in the field without doses of petroleum based chemicals to keep them standing upright for our table.

What of the people around the world that need food handouts because we've bought and sold their countries for all the energy used to keep western economies lights on, is the Free Trade market still going to be running in three years time and feeding them? We're fast running out of credibility in the west and the only defense left are bombs, lots of bombs; you can't eat bombs.

You want some reality, I'll give you gobbs of it and I'll lace it with what it is to be living in the 21st century on this shrinking island of the west we've called home for generations. We've stolen everything and gave back crumbs and actually been magnanimous. Your father fought a damn war for this mess with belief and character and all the things he bestode on his son and you bestow on your offspring. If he could have gathered up all of the facts from his lifetime and been here today to see what the world has become, if he'd have the strength left and within himself, I hope he'd sit you down and tell you straight that you need to prepare and prepare quickly.

The lights are going to go out right across America and the machinery to run the harvesters are going to stop. The landed acre's are going to remain barren wasteland for weeds where mass chemical fertilizers made Monsanto terminator seeds grow corn and wheat tall and straight and abundant and there'll be pity poor scrub to grow crop for generation after generation before the world heals its wounds. Party hats and easy words have been the mettle to keep our wonderful greed filled world spinning because of abundance. This is a draught, and a long one well over due.

 

What A Way To Go: Life At The End Of Empire :-

Paul

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Re: Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply

"
1. To disburse over 6.75 billion people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_popul...)
in an organized fashion and turn them all back into farmers would be an
impossible task. It was tried to a lesser extent in Cambodia after the
Vietnam war and we all know how that turned out. Mind you, if you're
looking for a vicious, nasty way to reduce the population that would be
one approach."

If you want to see how it's done, look no further than Cuba.

http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?hl=en&q=cuba+%22power+of+communit...

Mike 

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How to control a herd of humans

HITLER
and Mussolini both had the ability to bend millions of people to their
fascist will. Now evidence from psychology and neurology is emerging to
explain how tactics like organised marching and propaganda can work to
exert mass mind control.

Scott Wiltermuth
of Stanford University in California and colleagues have found that
activities performed in unison, such as marching or dancing, increase
loyalty to the group. "It makes us feel as though we're part of a
larger entity, so we see the group's welfare as being as important as
our own," he says.

Wiltermuth's
team separated 96 people into four groups who performed these tasks
together: listening to a song while silently mouthing the words,
singing along, singing and dancing, or listening to different versions
of the song so that they sang and danced out of sync. In a later game,
when asked to decide whether to stick with the group or strive for
personal gain, those in the non-synchronised group behaved less loyally than the rest (Psychological Science, vol 20, p 1).

Psychologist Jonathan Haidt at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville
thinks this research helps explain why fascist leaders, amongst others,
use organised marching and chanting to whip crowds into a frenzy of
devotion to their cause, though these tactics can be used just as well
for peace, he stresses. Community dances and group singing can ease
local tension, for example - a theory he plans to test experimentally (Journal of Legal Studies, DOI: 10.1086/529447).

Meanwhile,
the powerful unifying effects of propaganda images are being explored
by Charles Seger at Indiana University at Bloomington. His team primed
students with pictures of their university - college sweatshirts or the
buildings themselves - then asked how highly they scored on different
emotions, such as pride or happiness. The primed students gave a
strikingly similar emotional profile, in contrast with non-primed
students (Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, DOI: 10.1016/j.jesp.2008.12.004).

Interest
in the idea of a herd mentality has been renewed by work into mirror
neurons - cells that fire when we perform an action or watch someone
perform a similar action. It suggests that our brains are geared to
mimic our peers. "We are set up for 'auto-copy'," says Haidt.

Interest in the idea of a herd mentality has been renewed by research into mirror neurons

Neurological evidence seems to back this idea. Vasily Klucharev,
at the Donders Centre for Cognitive Neuroimaging in Nijmegen, the
Netherlands, found that the brain releases more of the reward chemical
dopamine when we fall in line with the group consensus (Neuron, vol 61, p 140). His team asked 24 women to rate more than 200 women for attractiveness.
If a participant discovered their ratings did not tally with that of
the others, they tended to readjust their scores. When a woman realised
her differing opinion, fMRI scans revealed that her brain generated
what the team dubbed an "error signal". This has a conditioning effect,
says Klucharev: it's how we learn to follow the crowd.

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Re: Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply

Crikey, Mike, you really know your stuff don't you !  Really intersting read there.  Thanks.

BTW:  I have hired the matrix and am going to be watching it tonight.  Your user name has had me intrigued enough to see the movie.  Hopefully then I will know why you espouse abandonning the matrix ! 

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Re: Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply
Damnthematrix wrote:

"
1. To disburse over 6.75 billion people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_popul...)
in an organized fashion and turn them all back into farmers would be an
impossible task. It was tried to a lesser extent in Cambodia after the
Vietnam war and we all know how that turned out. Mind you, if you're
looking for a vicious, nasty way to reduce the population that would be
one approach."

If you want to see how it's done, look no further than Cuba.

http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?hl=en&q=cuba+%22power+of+communit...

Mike 

Mike,

I watched the whole 52 minutes of the link you provided above - fascinating tale. I must admit that I was suitably impressed with what they accomplished after the rug was pulled out from under them.

I also looked up the population of Cuba: 11,423,952 (July 2008 est.). [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/cu.html]

1. Cuba is an island with a relatively homogeneous population - not wide open territory like the U.S. with a population that is anything but homogeneous.

2. Cuba is a dictatorship - very useful when you wish to get something done. Rather than ask the people to do something, you tell them. The Cuban people have been used to that for the last 50 years. It was not a new experience for them to do what they were told when TPTB issued their edicts.

3. Many countries (U.S., UK, Australia, NZ, most of Europe) are filled with masses of people used to doing things their way and resisting their governments attempts to impose unpopular actions. Controlling Cubans is liking herding cattle. Controlling Americans (Brits, Aussies, etc.) would be like trying to herd cats!

4. On a limited scale with a relatively small population Cuba has proven it is possible to change directions and survive with a limited amount of oil. Notice, however, that Cuba still uses oil for many things - e.g. What do you think their military machine runs on?

5. Cambodia is also an example of a homogeneous population with a strong agricultural background. However, the dictatorship's effort to drive the people out of the cities back onto the farms was an unmitigated disaster as we all know.

Conclusion: You cannot expect Cuba's impressive example to easily translate to the other 6.7 billion people in the world. If you seriously believe that it can be done, I want some of what you're smoking!  Wink

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Re: How to control a herd of humans
Damnthematrix wrote:

HITLER
and Mussolini both had the ability to bend millions of people to their
fascist will. Now evidence from psychology and neurology is emerging to
explain how tactics like organised marching and propaganda can work to
exert mass mind control.

<snip>

Mike,

Again, you have small countries with homogeneous populations who were already used to being told what to do.

1. Before Hitler there were the Kaisers (The Weimar Republic was so short-lived as to be inconsequential) going back hundreds of years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser).

2. Before Mussolini there were Italian monarchs (http://europeanhistory.about.com/library/readyref/blitalyrulers.htm).

3. As recently as a hundred years ago most countries had relatively small homogeneous populations. Dictatorships and Monarchs were the norm. People were used to being told what to do so were easily controlled when circumstances demanded it.

However, in the last hundred years, we have seen a continuous influx of people from all over the world moving to other parts of the world. In Europe, for example, there has been a significant influx of people from African, Caribbean, and Muslim countries. America has been a melting pot since the turn of the last century.

All that to buttress my argument that controlling the masses will not be as easy as it once was. As I said in my earlier post, it would be like trying to herd cats!

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Re: Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply
SamLinder wrote:

Vanityfox451,

I know some of what you throw out here is "tongue-in-cheek", but it seems to me that there is a broad trend in your contributions to "throwing out the baby with the bath water".

Bottom line, we can't all "return to the land". While our agrarian world was a simpler world in many respects, it was also a hard-scrabble world as well. Civilization, as we currently know it, has brought myriad benefits to the population at large.

As with all tribal groupings (large and small), there are those who create problems for the rest of us. As a society, we deal with them as best we can (throw the bad ones in jail, try to rehabilitate others). This is no reason to disparage society at large for the failings of the few.

If it suits you to return to an agrarian life-style, I wish you all the best and I hope you are content. However, it is not an approach suitable for all of us. Frankly, I'm quite happy living in my little house amongst others in my neighborhood.

<snip>

Sam,

I would offer that the "urgency" presented by Mike and Paul is not so much based on telling others how they should live but rather that promoting that an adjustment to a more agrarian lifestyle sooner than later will result in a better solution for all. 

As I see it, the sooner "we" start, the easier it will be due to the simple fact that you can at least still purchase a gallon of fuel. If you wanted to move to a little house on the prarie tomorrow morning you factually could still do it.  Remember, the stadium appears nearly empty when you only have 4 minutes left!  If the store shelves at your local store were bare you might think differently about your choice to not have a garden of your own.

Now I grant you that one option, using the "Titanic" as an example, is that one may simply choose to lie down on the bed as the waters fill the room rather than fight it out on the deck.  But I would offer that there is much to be done and I think that an awareness of the situation begs for it to be disseminated to as many as possible as quickly as possible so that this boat can be turned around.

Civilization as we know it won't be recognizable in the not to distant future.

Coop

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Re: Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply

I won't take credit for any of that, it just turned up in my mailbox (I do have an interesting mail box :-) ) and I thought it too appropriate for this discussion to not share it....

I might add that I often post items I don't necessarily agree with, just to encourage discussion.  Some people read things into some of my posts that is sometimes inaccurate.

Mike 

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Re: Cattle Versus Cats...

... Then I will add a take in this thread that needs adding to the pot and help discount the very easy ability to throw facts around on a number amounting to 6.75 billion from the stats of Wikipedia. They are 'Stats', not the account of billions of 'Real' and 'Individual Souls' that are eeking out Their survival on this planet in places we can avoid by changing the channel on the tube when a minimally advertised Documentary Short puts it into focus...and as is the case with some of the posts on this thread, the voice is out of sinc by the end of the film :-

...this is enough to warrant the absolute peak of intolerable, even With the use of oil. What are the dire consequences when oil is nolonger the single Required fuel to run this? Where Will These People Migrate?

The international ideal and, particularly the American governments intervention on immigration in 1965 have shown a complete lack of foresight on their immigration stratergy. This too is created from an ever decreasing world resource, with local US resources proven to be in catastrophic decline; a decline that is exponential and irreversible. As Chris Martenson would say, "This is where you live..." :-

...political excuses or regime changes are not going to reduce the suffering...

Paul

 

 

 

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Re: Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply
Vanityfox451 wrote:

Sam,

I think you're a brave man, that much I'm certain; you place yourself at the mercy of others with knowledge and fortitude and you're sure you're correct in your assumptions.

<snip>

Paul

Paul,

I'm sorry you feel I have blinders on and that I'm ignoring reality. It's also a shame that you read past some of what I'm trying to say.

I don't deny that the future holds some scary unknowns. However, as a student of history, I tend not to get hysterical about the future. I'm a computer engineer by training and have a very logical outlook on life. I've learned to always assume the worst, try to prepare for it, then move forward.

I have taken the CERT  (Community Emergency Response Team) course in my area and learned to prepare for short term emergencies when first responders are unavailable. I've also followed many of the suggestions posted in these forums to increase my preparedness. Have I done everything you have done? No. Does that make me "less than" for not choosing your path? Of course not.

Please visit this excellent link for a look at others who will choose a different path than you have: http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/adapting-place/12711

The human population has gone through some dramatic, violent, horrendous times in the past - yet it survives. Will I be one of the survivors? Who knows. Undecided  I'm not sticking my head in the sand, but I'm not going to succumb to knee jerk reactions either.

You, Mike, ckessel, and others make valid statements about the potential problems in the future. You then choose to adjust your lives accordingly. I have no fault with that. Why do you find fault with my choosing an alternative path?

If I've chosen poorly and wind up dead - so be it. I can only do what I can do. Please have the courtesy to consider and respect the choices of others as the future unfolds.

Thanks.

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Re: Cattle Versus Cats...
Vanityfox451 wrote:

... Then I will add a take in this thread that needs adding to the pot and help discount the very easy ability to throw facts around on a number amounting to 6.75 billion from the stats of Wikipedia. They are 'Stats', not the account of billions of 'Real' and 'Individual Souls' that are eeking out Their survival on this planet in places we can avoid by changing the channel on the tube when a minimally advertised Documentary Short puts it into focus...and as is the case with some of the posts on this thread, the voice is out of sinc by the end of the film :-

...this is enough to warrant the absolute peak of intolerable, even With the use of oil. What are the dire consequences when oil is nolonger the single Required fuel to run this? Where Will These People Migrate?

The international ideal and, particularly the American governments intervention on immigration in 1965 have shown a complete lack of foresight on their immigration stratergy. This too is created from an ever decreasing world resource, with local US resources proven to be in catastrophic decline; a decline that is exponential and irreversible. As Chris Martenson would say, "This is where you live..." :-

...political excuses or regime changes are not going to reduce the suffering...

Paul

OK - so I watched the videos. Now - what would you have me do? Are you posting these clips just to "stir the pot" or did you have some goal in mind? I cannot do anything for the people in Lagos - nor can you. I can only presume that they are migrating from the farm to the city because life on the farm is even more desperate than the slum. So, Paul - where does your "everyone back to an agrarian life" fit in with this picture?

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Re: How to control a herd of humans
Damnthematrix wrote:

Interest in the idea of a herd mentality has been renewed by work into mirror neurons - cells that fire when we perform an action or watch someone perform a similar action. It suggests that our brains are geared to mimic our peers. "We are set up for 'auto-copy'," says Haidt.

Interest in the idea of a herd mentality has been renewed by research into mirror neurons

Neurological evidence seems to back this idea. Vasily Klucharev, at the Donders Centre for Cognitive Neuroimaging in Nijmegen, the Netherlands, found that the brain releases more of the reward chemical dopamine when we fall in line with the group consensus (Neuron, vol 61, p 140). His team asked 24 women to rate more than 200 women for attractiveness. If a participant discovered their ratings did not tally with that of the others, they tended to readjust their scores. When a woman realised her differing opinion, fMRI scans revealed that her brain generated what the team dubbed an "error signal". This has a conditioning effect, says Klucharev: it's how we learn to follow the crowd.

Interesting material Mike.

How do you think this theory evolves as we move from EEG brain wave mapping of the past, to the mirror neuron research of today mentioned in your post to quantum level entanglement on a sub-synaptic level.  There is a great essay on this in Damien Broderick's "Year Million" that discusses the simultaneous evolution of computing and the human brain.  I have my own opinion but would be interested in what you think.

Pretty heady stuff.  Err, sorry. 

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Re: Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply

Sam -

Great posts at #1 and #15.

When my wife and I first started venturing into Crash Course we were swamped with feelings of "hurry up we must get there now before it's too late."  It was a fruitless exercise in running with one foot nailed to the floor.

After a month or so, I realized that unless my Mom called and told me she had an affair with Warren Buffet 48 years ago - sorry here's a check - I wasn't going to be able to go buy 1000 acres of land with hardwood forests, running water, several lakes, cleared, arable and working farm acreage, in a temperate climate, greenhouses, a home with active and passive solar, rainwater reclamation and holding tanks, grey water processing, windmills surrounded by like minded friends and neighbors of varying skill sets - you get the picture.

Instead of getting train wrecked over not being able to "get there now" Mrs. Dogs and I put together a reasonable plan, specific to our situation, to get us there.  I had to decompress the sense of helpless urgency and develop a focused pursuit of change.  If we get there, we get there.  If we don't, we don't (and then the best I can hope for is that what I learned on Sundays and triedy to apply Monday through Saturday was good enough)

In any case, the changes we made and are working towards will have a positive, if at this point small positive impact.

I think your approach and mindset is fully grounded in your reality and it is apparently working for you.  Good on ya.  Keep it up.

And if my Mom does call, I'll let you know where we are going and you can come visit.

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Ready
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Re: Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply

Dogs, I truly love your style!

Sam, You do what you think is right and to hell with everyone else. You are being civil, insightful, and logical and while you and I have chosen different paths, you know you are doing what is right for you which is all that matters. Your logical, "the sky is not going to fall" approach would always be welcome in my group. You can become a self fulfilling prophecy if that is all you ever think! Good luck!

Rog

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Vanityfox451
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Re: "stirring the pot"

Sam,

I stand by my convictions and what I wrote of you in Post #6. By whats creeping out of the woodwork on this thread, I believe I'm correct. Hysterical indeed. This film is a light hearted slant on real issues that were designed to be thought provoking, not to be taken as the way I choose to live my life in future; that is your assumption and not my reality in the slightest.

Mike understood it for what it was and so did Coop. I think you have ulteria motives to turn this thread into warring sides of right/ wrong and you're just not going to get it. You know as well as I that there has to be a middle ground based in reality and, making extremes of my choices are not the answer. That would mean that I truly would be, "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".

Frankly, I found your opening posts offensive. Learn from it. I don't find fault in your choices, I find fault in your off base pre-assumptions. Exactly whos "Pot" was stirred first? 

Why not re-read Coop in post #12, I feel he put my thoughts into perspective beautifully. Preparation is the key... 

Paul

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SamLinder
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Re: Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply
Dogs_In_A_Pile wrote:

Sam -

Great posts at #1 and #15.

When my wife and I first started venturing into Crash Course we were swamped with feelings of "hurry up we must get there now before it's too late."  It was a fruitless exercise in running with one foot nailed to the floor.

After a month or so, I realized that unless my Mom called and told me she had an affair with Warren Buffet 48 years ago - sorry here's a check - I wasn't going to be able to go buy 1000 acres of land with hardwood forests, running water, several lakes, cleared, arable and working farm acreage, in a temperate climate, greenhouses, a home with active and passive solar, rainwater reclamation and holding tanks, grey water processing, windmills surrounded by like minded friends and neighbors of varying skill sets - you get the picture.

Instead of getting train wrecked over not being able to "get there now" Mrs. Dogs and I put together a reasonable plan, specific to our situation, to get us there.  I had to decompress the sense of helpless urgency and develop a focused pursuit of change.  If we get there, we get there.  If we don't, we don't (and then the best I can hope for is that what I learned on Sundays and triedy to apply Monday through Saturday was good enough)

In any case, the changes we made and are working towards will have a positive, if at this point small positive impact.

I think your approach and mindset is fully grounded in your reality and it is apparently working for you.  Good on ya.  Keep it up.

And if my Mom does call, I'll let you know where we are going and you can come visit.

Dogs,

Thanks for the kind words. I think you and Cat are doing the right thing by doing what is best for you.

BTW, I do enjoy the posts that you and Cat make. You two make me smile with your positive approach to life. I especially enjoyed the matchmaking attempt with Mike!

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Re: Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply
R_Eddy wrote:

Dogs, I truly love your style!

Sam, You do what you think is right and to hell with everyone else. You are being civil, insightful, and logical and while you and I have chosen different paths, you know you are doing what is right for you which is all that matters. Your logical, "the sky is not going to fall" approach would always be welcome in my group. You can become a self fulfilling prophecy if that is all you ever think! Good luck!

Rog

Thanks, Rog. I gather from your comments that you must be on the way (if not already there) to an agrarian response to the upcoming storms. If so, I wish you best of luck. In my book, if you are happy doing what you are doing, that's all that matters - no matter what I, or anyone else, thinks.  Smile

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Vanityfox451
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Re: How to control a herd of humans

Mike,

thankyou for being grounded in reality and using your time wisely in preparation for the future...

Paul

P.S.I hope this doesn't make me appear a churlish suckup???

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Vanityfox451
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Re: Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply

Coop,

it was a pleasure to read your response to the film and applying cool logic and a reasoned approach to the future.

Take Care,

Paul

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cat233
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Hey Sam.... match-make update
SamLinder wrote:

BTW, I do enjoy the posts that you and Cat make. You two make me smile with your positive approach to life. I especially enjoyed the matchmaking attempt with Mike!

Hey Sam,

You are the one who makes me smile.

Have a Cat and Dogs' daughter/Mike match-make update.  The daughter is in her final year of grad school at Virginia Tech.  Mike goes there in a few weeks to teach his class to the 1st years as he calls them.  He and I exchanged a few emails, I was nailing down the time he would be teaching in hopes to send her by to say, "Hi."  She usually has to work that day but as of this afternoon she doesn't.  I have yet to relay this to Mike, he thinks she is working... So he can discover that info here.  So who knows, she could pop by and see him.

Of course his objective that day has nothing to do with the daughter, it has to do with presenting CC topics, so I am thinking I best leave poor Mike alone for now and let him get his material ready, you know he will have enough on his mind that day not to be distracted by my daughter.

I did think she could stand outside the classroom door and pass out CC DVDs to students, but again... I will leave poor Mike alone and let him do his thing his way without any interference from me or my daughter.... Laughing

Cat

 

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SamLinder
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Re: Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply

Paul,

In an effort to help you understand where I'm coming from, I've chosen to answer this long post of yours point-by-point.

Vanityfox451 wrote:
Sam,
I think you're a brave man, that much I'm certain; you place yourself at the mercy of others with knowledge and fortitude and you're sure you're correct in your assumptions.

Absolutely wrong. I'm certainly not placing myself "at the mercy of others" and I'm certainly not sure if I'm correct in my assumptions. It's inappropriate of you to impute otherwise. I don't know if I'm right or wrong - the future will determine your fate and mine.

You read through this madness thats happening to the world every day and you know there is a war building up just in the background of the news; out on the sidelines; offside somewhere in amongst all that grand optimism that you choose to use as a weapon so you can sleep safe in the knowledge that you're right. But I'm not buying any of it.

I find your analysis of my thoughts to be quite out of line. You are presuming things of which you have no knowledge and you are quite wrong in your presumptions.

 

There is absolutely nil opportunity that this globe is going to remain intact with some wonderous new invention that'll save us all to die another day and you know that fact cleanly, yet you'll go along with the majority and they'll claim you as their voice of reasoning because the group think love the way you phrase things; love the way you always make yourself so accountable, a dedicated powerhouse of half truths and slight of hand to keep a footing.

I have never said that this world is going to remain intact as it is today. I have not discounted Peak Oil nor any other Peak (pick a name). I just find your conviction that the world is going to hell in a hand-basket to be at odds with my perspective on life. Your discounting of mankind's attempts at improving the future is really off-base. Should we not try because you have decided we are doomed? I reject that approach out-of-hand.

BTW, accusing me of "sleight of hand to keep a footing" is not a good way to continue to engage in calm, reasoned debate - in fact I find it quite offensive.

 

What you've written is only based on the facts that came before all of this, where you've lived most of your life and where there was more certainty. Where you've lived, people can live in a bubble of denial within CNN and Fox News, deconfiguring and reconfiguring the facts until they're bloated out of context and less of a bitter pill to swallow.

I think your window on the world is made small to disguise the view and that has been an opportunity for you. Yes, grave things have happened in your life for you to attain the lines of maturity, but thats because that window of the world is your window and an obscured window of what this world is becoming. Give me reality Sam, it gives me less of a target to swing at.

You continue to make false accusations without any knowledge of the facts of my life. As I have explained in previous posts, I look at history and I try to guess the future (based on what knowledge is available to me today) and I make choices accordingly. If it doesn't fit with your reading of the future - so what? Do I tell you what to do? No. What would your reaction have been if I had said what a foolish person you are? Look, he's Chicken Little running around screaming "The sky is falling!" Not only did I not do that, in earlier posts I complimented you on your choice to move to a farm in Hungary. That wouldn't be my choice but, if it works for you, good luck.

 

Where is the food for that 6.7 billion people without oil? What of the intensifying weather patterns and rising sea levels? What of the weak strained animals we've been breeding with toxins and feeding them to themselves like some canibalistic orgy, are they going to survive healthy in the field without doses of petroleum based chemicals to keep them standing upright for our table.

What of the people around the world that need food handouts
because we've bought and sold their countries for all the energy used
to keep western economies lights on, is the Free Trade market still
going to be running in three years time and feeding them? We're fast
running out of credibility in the west and the only defense left are
bombs, lots of bombs; you can't eat bombs.

You've lost me with this one. I don't know what you think I'm supposed to do about it. I agree a world without oil is going to be tough on everyone. As an animal lover, I also hate what humans have done to the creatures that are unable to defend themselves. However, saddling up on a horse and pretending to be Don Quixote won't accomplish a damn thing. (Besides, I can't find anyone willing to be Pancho!)

I do what I can within my own limited realm - beyond that I don't drive myself crazy worrying about the millions of kids that go to bed hungry every night around the world - and even here in Oregon. If I did, I would go nuts in no time and probably kill myself - but nothing would change. So, being a realist, I don't kill myself. 

 

You want some reality, I'll give you gobbs of it and I'll lace it with what it is to be living in the 21st century on this shrinking island of the west we've called home for generations. We've stolen everything and gave back crumbs and actually been magnanimous. Your father fought a damn war for this mess with belief and character and all the things he bestode on his son and you bestow on your offspring. If he could have gathered up all of the facts from his lifetime and been here today to see what the world has become, if he'd have the strength left and within himself, I hope he'd sit you down and tell you straight that you need to prepare and prepare quickly.

You have crossed a line here. Do not presume to tell me the thoughts of my father!

 

The lights are going to go out right across America and the machinery to run the harvesters are going to stop. The landed acre's are going to remain barren wasteland for weeds where mass chemical fertilizers made Monsanto terminator seeds grow corn and wheat tall and straight and abundant and there'll be pity poor scrub to grow crop for generation after generation before the world heals its wounds. Party hats and easy words have been the mettle to keep our wonderful greed filled world spinning because of abundance. This is a draught, and a long one well over due.

What A Way To Go: Life At The End Of Empire :-

Paul

Again - I don't know what you think I'm supposed to do about it. I repeat myself (ad nauseum) when I say that I appreciate and understand the future problems we all face. I just choose to deal with them in my own way and am annoyed by those who consistently bombard this forum with "End Days Ahead - Get Your Passports Now!" videos.

Presenting options to the readers of these forums is a good idea. None of us have all the answers. We can all learn from the sheer mass of intelligent thought available to us at PeakProsperity.com. However, information should be presented in a fashion to allow the reader to intelligently select what will help them - not scare the hell out of them.

Chris Martenson presented his concerns in a logical, non-accusatory way that all of us in this forum found appealing - otherwise we wouldn't be here. However, we all have to deal with the information in our own way (he said yet again...). You, and others, chose to return to the farm. Others will choose to "Shelter In Place". No way is more right than another. The future may find you dead from a raid on your farm while I survive in place. Conversely, the future may find me dead by marauding gangs while you remain safely tucked away on your farm. Were you wrong? Was I wrong?

As has been said before, "It is what it is."

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SamLinder
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Jul 10 2008
Posts: 1499
Re: Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply

Hi Coop,

Sorry for the delayed response. See my comments below.

ckessel wrote:
SamLinder wrote:

Vanityfox451,

I know some of what you throw out here is "tongue-in-cheek", but it seems to me that there is a broad trend in your contributions to "throwing out the baby with the bath water".

Bottom line, we can't all "return to the land". While our agrarian world was a simpler world in many respects, it was also a hard-scrabble world as well. Civilization, as we currently know it, has brought myriad benefits to the population at large.

As with all tribal groupings (large and small), there are those who create problems for the rest of us. As a society, we deal with them as best we can (throw the bad ones in jail, try to rehabilitate others). This is no reason to disparage society at large for the failings of the few.

If it suits you to return to an agrarian life-style, I wish you all the best and I hope you are content. However, it is not an approach suitable for all of us. Frankly, I'm quite happy living in my little house amongst others in my neighborhood.

<snip>

Sam,

I would offer that the "urgency" presented by Mike and Paul is not so much based on telling others how they should live but rather that promoting that an adjustment to a more agrarian lifestyle sooner than later will result in a better solution for all.

Promoting "an adjustment to a more agrarian lifestyle" is not necessarily the only answer. It is their answer. I find their ongoing "urgency" to be a bit wearing at times. It makes me want to say, "Enough already - you've made your point. Now give me some realistic options - we're not all going to be able to do what you did."

 

As I see it, the sooner "we" start, the easier it will be due to the simple fact that you can at least still purchase a gallon of fuel. If you wanted to move to a little house on the prarie tomorrow morning you factually could still do it.  Remember, the stadium appears nearly empty when you only have 4 minutes left!  If the store shelves at your local store were bare you might think differently about your choice to not have a garden of your own.

But I don't want to move to "a little house on the prairie tomorrow morning" - why is that so bad? As for the bare store shelves, I assure you that has only crossed my mind 10,000 times. I am doing what I can about that - short of moving into the back room of Safeway! ;-)

 

Now I grant you that one option, using the "Titanic" as an example, is that one may simply choose to lie down on the bed as the waters fill the room rather than fight it out on the deck.  But I would offer that there is much to be done and I think that an awareness of the situation begs for it to be disseminated to as many as possible as quickly as possible so that this boat can be turned around.

The "Titanic" option has been used before (see WWII and the Jewish Shoah). It is not my option (think Warsaw Ghetto fighters).

Civilization as we know it won't be recognizable in the not to distant future.
Coop

Can't argue with you there!

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SamLinder
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
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Posts: 1499
Re: Hey Sam.... match-make update
cat233 wrote:
SamLinder wrote:

BTW, I do enjoy the posts that you and Cat make. You two make me smile with your positive approach to life. I especially enjoyed the matchmaking attempt with Mike!

Hey Sam,

You are the one who makes me smile.

Have a Cat and Dogs' daughter/Mike match-make update.  The daughter is in her final year of grad school at Virginia Tech.  Mike goes there in a few weeks to teach his class to the 1st years as he calls them.  He and I exchanged a few emails, I was nailing down the time he would be teaching in hopes to send her by to say, "Hi."  She usually has to work that day but as of this afternoon she doesn't.  I have yet to relay this to Mike, he thinks she is working... So he can discover that info here.  So who knows, she could pop by and see him.

Of course his objective that day has nothing to do with the daughter, it has to do with presenting CC topics, so I am thinking I best leave poor Mike alone for now and let him get his material ready, you know he will have enough on his mind that day not to be distracted by my daughter.

I did think she could stand outside the classroom door and pass out CC DVDs to students, but again... I will leave poor Mike alone and let him do his thing his way without any interference from me or my daughter.... Laughing

Cat

 

Hi Cat!

If you're not a Jewish or Italian mother - you should be. Your matchmaking antics crack me up! Poor Mike is doomed - he just doesn't know it yet! I can hardly wait for the next installment.  Surprised

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ckessel
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Joined: Nov 12 2008
Posts: 483
Re: Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply

Paul,

I was in stiches watching it. My wife came in and asked what the heck I was watching so I restarted it and we both had quite a howl.

I'm going to send it to my son who is 21 and really got the CC info last month when I gave him his copy. Now he is beside himself because his friends are "ready to walk" because he is all of a sudden become a gloomer!   The clip may help him.

I think it is unfortunate that  Sam feels like he is being told what to do. This forum is all about sharing ideas and values and it is natural to "make ones point"by encouraging a look at alternatives.

 I have never been a blogger prior to this site. (I think that is the correct term) I like the intelligent exchanges here and I expect differences of opinion. 

Coop

 

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Dogs_In_A_Pile
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Joined: Jan 4 2009
Posts: 2606
Re: Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply

Sam -

I'd be quite content if the whole damn series got cancelled.  My daughter will not be involved with something called a Wahoo that wears goofy ties to football games.

And pulled from your earlier post, the stadium at UVA football games is empty with about 12inutes left.  If those squirelly Wahoo fans would only recognize that the football team stopped showing up by the end of the first quarter, they'd all be home by halftime.

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