Children of the Crash

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Cloudfire
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Children of the Crash

 

I’ve found myself wondering, of late, whether parents of young children have given any thought to how The Crash and subsequent Rebuilding of Civilization will affect the way they parent. It has also crossed my mind that older “children” will need some kind of explanation for our contracting and evolving lifestyles, and I’ve been wondering how those conversations are going. In full disclosure, I must admit that I have no children of my own. However, in my work assisting parents in transitioning ventilator-dependent infants and children from hospital to home, and working with them for the first few hairy weeks, I’ve certainly become familiar with the dynamics of families under extreme stress. I’m pleased to report, from that experience, that I was continually amazed at the deep physical, emotional, and spiritual reserves that parents managed to tap, and that in the end, they coped remarkably well, and were quite creative in dealing with things-as-they-shouldn’t-be.

So I’d like to open up this forum, as a place where folks can vent their frustrations, explore their fears, float new ideas, and share what works. I’ll start with an idea that crossed my mind while pruning my hemlocks this afternoon:

I vaguely remember reading the story of how the board game, Monopoly was created, and as I recall, several prominent investors have reported that they “cut their teeth”, as it were, on this ubiquitous household fixture. Indeed, Monopoly was a primer of capitalism for millions of American children. I suggest that instead of Monopoly, we develop a game called Community. Instead of competing against one another as individuals, this game would be played in teams. No funny money for us! . . . . . . Gold bullion, buckets of wheat, ammo, and OK, single malt whiskey (just for you, DIAP) . . . . . would be the coin of the realm. The system would be “bankless” in the usual sense. Needless to say, no Scotty Dogs or Steam Ships for us! The old Wheelbarrow could stay, and for my “piece”, I’d like a Mortar and Pestle. I think it would be great to have the “draw a card” feature on some spaces, with uncontrollable incidents, such as “Protracted Drought – Go back 4 spaces”, or “Federal Marshal finds your bullion stash – live under your neighbor’s bush and eat berries for three turns”. And best of all, it would be fair game to barter with the opposing team.

So, that’s my starter for a game that could teach the next generation the skills they’ll need for surviving and thriving over the next 20 years . . . . . . Any ideas of how this idea could be improved or expanded on? Or, as stated above, any frustrations, concerns, ideas or successes that the parents among us would like to share?
 

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suesullivan
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Re: Children of the Crash

We have two kids, 7 and 10, and we recently found a copy of Harvest Time, a cooperative game that we'd been looking for for a long time, at the home of some like-minded friends. We've borrowed it and played it and the kids really like it, but it is geared for the 10 and under crowd. (I love euro board games, and I prefer cooperative games. Bizarrely, the best one I've played so far is Pandemic, which my gaming group played a few weeks back in honor of Swine Flu. Very strange experience, I must say, watching the spread of Avian flu around the continents on the game board -- we lost! -- but I did enjoy the game play and would like to play it again, in less relevant times, perhaps!)

As far as parenting through this time, I find it very challenging, and when my thinking is bleakest, heartbreaking, to consider what world my kids may grow up into. I find myself focusing all my efforts on trying to provide them a stable and secure childhood and adulthood, if they choose to stay with us on a future homestead (and I recognize that they likely will not want to stay, though they may well return). I was telling my husband this morning that I've been thinking of them having children, and hoping they don't, because I am having trouble seeing a safe, hopeful life 40 years down the road from here. Humans persist, life persists, and (hypothetical) grandchildren will not miss what they've never experienced, so perhaps I'll change my feelings on that.

My kids are aware of what we think is going on, we discuss it in front of them, they grasp it to the degree that they are developmentally able. My youngest was concerned for a time that he might lose access to computers and the internet games he likes to play and was urging us to install solar panels. I assured him that he should be able to access computers for many years to come, and I think that's true. Other than that worry, they've been onboard with learning homesteading skills, being more frugal, and all the changes we've been making of late. My son isn't ready to move though, to a homestead, but nor are the rest of us, in truth.

They remind me, with their ability to stay in the moment, not to focus so much on the negative, to appreciate the moment and find hope for the future, even whilst I'm worrying about their futures.

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Re: Children of the Crash

Hi, folks;

At the suggestion of CM staff, I have started a thread for development of the Community game idea in the Promoting the Crash Course section of forums.  Here's the link, for those who would like to make contributions to this idea:

http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/community-game/19160

Please continue to use this thread for sharing all of the trials, tribulations, ideas, and successes of raising the Children of the Crash.

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Re: Children of the Crash

 

Along the lines of re-educating our children for a post-crash world, I ran across the the book, Everyone Wins!, which I have not read, but it looks like it may be an interesting resource for parents and teachers.  Here's the link, and the text from the promotional materials:

http://www.newsociety.com/bookid/3952

 

Everyone Wins!

Cooperative Games and Activities

By Josette and Ba Luvmour

This new edition of the best-selling Parent Choice Award winner Everyone Wins! is a handbook of more than 150 cooperative games and activities for enhancing conflict resolution and communication skills and building self-esteem. Encouraging collaboration over competition, activities such as "Spaghetti", "Blanket Toss" and "Rhythm Learing" foster team-building and positive group dynamics. With a minimum of effort and a maximum of fun, children (and adults) learn to recognize and appreciate each other's special abilities and take pride in their own.

All of the activities in Everyone Wins! have been thoroughly tested and are graded according to appropriate age level (1+ to adult), size of group, indoor or outdoor location, and activity level, and include special hints and variations for group leaders. Where extra materials or props are called for, they are always simple, readily available and inexpensive.

Brimming with ideas and written in a clear, easy-to-understand style, Everyone Wins! is perfect for educators, parents, group leaders, camp counselors and anyone who works with children.

About the Contributor(s)

Josette and Ba Luvmour created Natural Learning Rhythms, a family-oriented approach to human development, and are co-founders of EnCompass, the first holistic learning center for the whole family. They have written several previous books on family and childhood development, including Win-Win Games for All Ages.

 

 

 

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Re: Children of the Crash

Oh MY!

 

My only issue with a game where "everyone wins" is that in the real world, not everyone wins!

I coached kids in baseball when mine were younger and the kids that had a hard time playing were the ones that lived in "progressive" households where "everyone wins" what I mean is this, in Tee-ball we didn't keep score and "everyone won" By the time the kids reached the level where they pitched for themselves, different talent levels became obvious. I played the talent where the child was best suited. I had kids come to me and say, "Coach, I want to play 1st base, why can't I play 1st base?" Now, the kid couldn't catch a cold much less catch a ball thrown by someone. So I attempted to add in throwing and catching drills in practice. These same kids came to me and said, "This is boring, I don't want to do it any more!" And off they went to sit on their mother's lap. Next game, the one child returned and asked why he couldn't play 1st base.

Once we started playing to WIN, I started rotating kids through the positions. In a rather close (zero-zero) game one time, (now the coach stood behind pitchers mound and was the umpire) I called for my normal rotation and that same child (who's turn it was to be at 1st base) came running up to the pitcher's mound and looked at me and said,"Are you crazy!?! Don't put me on first base, we can WIN this game!" Before he finished his rant at me, he was joined by everyone that was in the field saying the same sorts of things! Yes, it was a scene straight out of "Bad News Bears". See, up until that week of games, we weren't "playing for points".

So, I let them pick where everyone should play and with only one exception (short-stop) everyone went to where they played best. (I needed the kid who wanted to play short-stop in left field because of his glove and his arm).

We won the game, but before it was over, the kids on the other team were all crying on the bench. No one on their team scored or even made it past second base. Really. The last inning, I made our team play different positions and the other team scored a run.

Many lessons that were learned that day.

I strongly feel, one big issue today it that our children are not taught HOW to win or loose. They are taught "Everyone is a winner!" And that just isn't true in real life.

 

So, how will my children fair in the coming world? I can't be sure, but I will arm them with the thinking and emotional skills necessary to succeed even when they fail (don't win).

FWIW - C.

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Re: Children of the Crash

Parenting in these complex times is a daunting task.  I have children ages 17 and 14.  My daughter graduates HS in 2010.  I don't want her to be inundated with negativity and to be fearful of the future. I want to steer her to realistic endeavors without raining on her parade.  She has already given up on seeking a career in graphics and production.  Now she is thinking about law school.  That seems to be such a saturated profession.  I'm not seeing that as being a very lucrative option for her.  I don't share those thoughts with her.  I'm just trying to introduce her to other possibilities. 

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Re: Children of the Crash
RNcarl wrote:

Oh MY!

 

My only issue with a game where "everyone wins" is that in the real world, not everyone wins!

I coached kids in baseball when mine were younger and the kids that had a hard time playing were the ones that lived in "progressive" households where "everyone wins" what I mean is this, in Tee-ball we didn't keep score and "everyone won" By the time the kids reached the level where they pitched for themselves, different talent levels became obvious. I played the talent where the child was best suited. I had kids come to me and say, "Coach, I want to play 1st base, why can't I play 1st base?" Now, the kid couldn't catch a cold much less catch a ball thrown by someone. So I attempted to add in throwing and catching drills in practice. These same kids came to me and said, "This is boring, I don't want to do it any more!" And off they went to sit on their mother's lap. Next game, the one child returned and asked why he couldn't play 1st base.

Once we started playing to WIN, I started rotating kids through the positions. In a rather close (zero-zero) game one time, (now the coach stood behind pitchers mound and was the umpire) I called for my normal rotation and that same child (who's turn it was to be at 1st base) came running up to the pitcher's mound and looked at me and said,"Are you crazy!?! Don't put me on first base, we can WIN this game!" Before he finished his rant at me, he was joined by everyone that was in the field saying the same sorts of things! Yes, it was a scene straight out of "Bad News Bears". See, up until that week of games, we weren't "playing for points".

So, I let them pick where everyone should play and with only one exception (short-stop) everyone went to where they played best. (I needed the kid who wanted to play short-stop in left field because of his glove and his arm).

We won the game, but before it was over, the kids on the other team were all crying on the bench. No one on their team scored or even made it past second base. Really. The last inning, I made our team play different positions and the other team scored a run.

Many lessons that were learned that day.

I strongly feel, one big issue today it that our children are not taught HOW to win or loose. They are taught "Everyone is a winner!" And that just isn't true in real life.

 

So, how will my children fair in the coming world? I can't be sure, but I will arm them with the thinking and emotional skills necessary to succeed even when they fail (don't win).

FWIW - C.

My gut tells me that much of what you say is right on the money, Carl.  My instincts say the say thing. . . . . I was just wondering, have you read this particular book?  Or has anyone else read it, so that we can know what the underlying philosophy actually is?  I'm looking for resources for teaching cooperation.  Indeed, it's possible that truly competitive sports are a good way of doing that.  Any other ideas?

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Re: Children of the Crash

Sue and Que Cera Cera;

First, welcome aboard, Que Cera Cera!  Good to see a new keyboard on the threads! 

Thanks to both of you for sharing some of your reflections about parenting in these difficult times.  I suspect there are many parents among us struggling with these issues who have little or no time for blogging.  Thanks so much for taking time out of your hectic days to do so!

I think it's important for us to pause and think about what's going on in our little and not-so-little ones' heads.  I distinctly remember being aware that my parents had no idea how much I perceived, and it seems that recent research bears that out, in general, about young people.  I just keep thinking that, while we are all the transition generation, and our task is to remake ourselves to adjust to this changing environment, our children will be in the unique position of making the world anew with fresh minds and young bodies.  There's a world of opportunity [and danger] in that. 

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Re: Children of the Crash
c1oudfire wrote:

My gut tells me that much of what you say is right on the money, Carl.  My instincts say the say thing. . . . . I was just wondering, have you read this particular book?  Or has anyone else read it, so that we can know what the underlying philosophy actually is?  I'm looking for resources for teaching cooperation.  Indeed, it's possible that truly competitive sports are a good way of doing that.  Any other ideas?

 

No,

I have not read the book. Actually, I would never pick up such a title. I will Amazon it and see if there is a synopsis of it.

At the risk of sounding... well... I don't know... anyway here goes.

The Boy Scouts have a tag line they have been using for a time now, it reads, "America is returning to the values the Boy Scouts never left."

Unfortunately this "everybody Wins" mentality has seeped into the Scouts. At one leader training I attended with my banker friend who was the cubmaster at the time, we were asked why we liked camping at a particular camp site in the scout reserve. We replied that there was a large open area there where the boys could play football or stick ball and have a blast! The session leader looked shocked! She replied, " Well, we don't encourage competitive sports. Some of the boys don't do well with them and we don't want to leave anyone out."

Leave anyone out? The boys beg us to play. Yes, we have a quite diverse group. We have 2 boys with ADHD-ADD 1 with Ashberger's a budding artist, twins that could be in congress (too smart I suspect) and even a few "regular kids". They pick teams, come up with rules about what is fair or foul etc. etc. And PLAY! They include EVERYONE. Now, not everyone finishes the game but then the boys just go on to another activity. They have taught us, the adults how to be a "community". All ten boys who were old enough to cross over from cub scouts to boy scouts went to the same troop. I could go on and on how these kids work together.

My problem is, I can't really figure out how that happened. At least I can't explain it. Not all the boys attend the same school. They don't all attend the same church. They are Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox and agnostic.

I am not sure where my discussion fits in. Maybe to say, when "bugging out" to that safe haven, we should remember to include our children in the precess.

 

FWIW - C.

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Re: Children of the Crash
suesullivan wrote:

 Bizarrely, the best one I've played so far is Pandemic, which my gaming group played a few weeks back in honor of Swine Flu. Very strange experience, I must say, watching the spread of Avian flu around the continents on the game board -- we lost! -- but I did enjoy the game play and would like to play it again, in less relevant times, perhaps!)

Sue, that is hilarious!  My wife and I also enjoy Euros, and we played several games of Pandemic during the initial flu panic (had to keep trying till we won).  It was a little disconcerting in our first game when the final catastrophic outbreak occurred in Mexico City.

 

Scott

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Re: Children of the Crash

Hi, Carl;

Your posts on this topic have been very convincing.  As you know, I have not read the book, and posted it primarily because of its claim to foster cooperation, which I consider to be a critical post-crash skill.  Your remarks are a good example of how anecdotal information can be useful, when it comes from a credible source, which your past remarks and your hands-on experience in working with youngsters lends you. 

You have opened my eyes on this topic.  I'd love to get your input on the Community, The Game thread, here:

http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/community-game/19160

Your insights in the development of the structure of the game would be greatly appreciated.

 

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Re: Children of the Crash

Growing up with Aspergers (and not knowing it!) I was left out from a lot of team sports and games. I didn't hold a grudge because I am VERY bad at them (dyspraxia and proprioception basically makes me a spastic 'tard on the ball field). I didn't want to play and the other kids didn't want me to play... but the parents, teachers, coaches etc FORCED me to play so "no one would be left out". And this wasn't just a case of being a bit clumsy for my age, I actually got injuried, I could not follow the action of the game and I didn't understand half the rules.  I recognized this, my peers recognized this, but the adults seemed stuck in the mode that everyone had to play and no one could be left out. Now, these same kids were more than happy to join me playing something else at other times; but being forced to play sports together put a severe strain on me and them... they started seeing me as a hindrance and a burden when they hadn't before.

Now, I'm not saying that team sports and games are bad. Actually, quite the opposite. Whether they are competitive or cooperative, I think they do promote and develop many necessary skills. However, the adults need to realize that not every child is going to be able to play or excel at team/group anything or physical anything, so forcing the issue causes more problems than it solves. Let the kids try, and if they aren't that good but still enjoy it, let them keep going "at thier own risk"... but PLEASE don't force a child who isn't enjoying the experience anymore to stay on the team, or make everyone else on the team play nicely with them. This does NOT work and it makes everyone miserable. The children are more than capable of realizing what they need to do together to succeed as a team... including the one child who knows the team would win if they weren't playing. Adult interference in this manner really becomes an issue of "Everybody Loses" not "Everybody Wins".

Kids do naturally seek out and settle into what they are good at without too much problems... they learn the shunning thing from us adults. As adults, we just need to keep social predation to a minimum, not force interaction... the kids will do the rest on their own. I, for one, was on friendly terms with many kids in different "clicks". The Jocks didn't care that I couldn't play sports and the Cheerleaders didn't care that I wasn't cute and bubbly, I had other things to offer and they realized it. The problems only really started when the adults began reinforcing their social rules (i.e. hanging around with him/her will ruin your reputation, jocks and nerds shouldn't mix, because you excel at XXX you're better than so-and-so).

So, I guess my advice to parents raising children of the crash is to teach them that everyone has value and excels at something despite their limitations. Don't reinforce the stereotypes and behaviors that have gotten us in this bind in the first place.

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Re: Children of the Crash

What the heck do you do with adult children?  And I don't mean to use the word "children" to characterize their behavior, but rather from a parents perspective.

I give them books, links, DVDs and opinions that they seem to accept with gratitude but things never seem to take traction. I really want them to be prepared but I don't want to meddle too much.  I was a little pushy with my younger daughter in asking how she would handle possible food, clean water and energy shortages.  She has it covered, she'll move in with us, we store lots of stuff and have a fireplace to cook and heat with. 

I wish they would become more independent in understanding what's coming, and then preparing. 

Larry

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Re: Children of the Crash

What the heck do you do with adult children? 

Well if you don't kick their A.. to make them get with it don't worry reality will.

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Re: Children of the Crash
DrKrbyLuv wrote:

What the heck do you do with adult children?  ...

I was a little pushy with my younger daughter in asking how she would handle possible food, clean water and energy shortages.  She has it covered, she'll move in with us, we store lots of stuff and have a fireplace to cook and heat with. 

I wish they would become more independent in understanding what's coming, and then preparing. 

Larry

Maybe you could get her involved in what you're doing to prepare. Get her to come over and help you shop for supplies, put up food, do other prep projects. Take her to a range and teach her how to fire a gun, or go with her to a self-defense class. She might be willing to do it if you seem to be asking for her help rather than pushing her into something... then hopefully she'll realize what's she's learning and run with it.

(FWIW - I'm in the opposite predicament, an adult child trying to convince her parents that they need to prepare. It's frustrating in either direction. You have my sympathies!)

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Re: Children of the Crash
c1oudfire wrote:

I’ve found myself wondering, of late, whether parents of young children have given any thought to how The Crash and subsequent Rebuilding of Civilization will affect the way they parent. It has also crossed my mind that older “children” will need some kind of explanation for our contracting and evolving lifestyles, and I’ve been wondering how those conversations are going.

Absolutely.

My kids are 5, 6, 9, and 10.

We emphasize finding ways to get everyone's needs met (including your own), creativity in meeting those needs, self-reliance, supporting the work of the family, relationship-building, community building, resourcefulness, frugality, flexibility, problem-solving, living in the moment, preparing for the future.

We talk openly about the path we are on, the decisions we make, our reasoning, our plans.  If plans change, we talk about why. 

We homeschool and I think there is a sense of pride in our family for following our own path and not blindly accepting the mainstream path. We try to minimize commercial influences, preferring creative and homemade/homegrown choices.

We talk a lot about where our food comes from, our energy use, our shelter, how to stay warm, how to stay healthy or self-treat if you aren't, how to amuse yourself without electricity, etc.  "What if" scenarios are a part of our leisure conversation ("What if we couldn't use our washing machine?" "What if we ran out of your favorite food, then what would you eat?"  "What if you were cold - how would you know you were cold, and what would you do to protect your body when you figured out you were cold?"  What if our car broke and we couldn't get to town for a long time?"  etc).

My priority for my kids' homeschool education is that they develop life skills, interpersonal skills, self-sufficiency skills, critical thinking skills, communication skills.  I value those kinds of things more highly than academics these days.

Honestly, my parenting is evolving in response to all sorts of things, only one of which is my awareness of how things in the world are changing.  I don't see an abrupt change in my parenting on the horizon.  But I am thankful that we disengaged from the mainstream several years ago and have had time to gradually forge our own unique path.

I think my kids already "get it," in the way that kids so openly accept what is.  Their reality is already infused with an understanding that their future will most likely not look like their present.   I  don't think it will catch them by surprise.  Because they are expecting it, I don't think they'll be clinging to past ways as hard as most adults will.  A few times my oldest has mentioned "When I'm sixteen and I have a car..." and it has turned into a conversation about why he probably won't have a car when he's sixteen, and he's accepted that. 

I think open, honest, loving communication, along with support for strong emotions as they come up, is the best way to ease the path.  And a sense of family solidarity, and a positive outlook.  I know my outlook shapes my kids' attitudes, and I want to present life as a positive journey even when there are challenges.  Having kids keeps me on my best behavior in this way - I spin it positive for them, and I find myself believing in my optimism as they reflect it back to me.  It's very powerful.  

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Re: Children of the Crash
Amanda wrote:
c1oudfire wrote:

I’ve found myself wondering, of late, whether parents of young children have given any thought to how The Crash and subsequent Rebuilding of Civilization will affect the way they parent. It has also crossed my mind that older “children” will need some kind of explanation for our contracting and evolving lifestyles, and I’ve been wondering how those conversations are going.

Absolutely.

My kids are 5, 6, 9, and 10.

We emphasize finding ways to get everyone's needs met (including your own), creativity in meeting those needs, self-reliance, supporting the work of the family, relationship-building, community building, resourcefulness, frugality, flexibility, problem-solving, living in the moment, preparing for the future.

We talk openly about the path we are on, the decisions we make, our reasoning, our plans.  If plans change, we talk about why. 

We homeschool and I think there is a sense of pride in our family for following our own path and not blindly accepting the mainstream path. We try to minimize commercial influences, preferring creative and homemade/homegrown choices.

We talk a lot about where our food comes from, our energy use, our shelter, how to stay warm, how to stay healthy or self-treat if you aren't, how to amuse yourself without electricity, etc.  "What if" scenarios are a part of our leisure conversation ("What if we couldn't use our washing machine?" "What if we ran out of your favorite food, then what would you eat?"  "What if you were cold - how would you know you were cold, and what would you do to protect your body when you figured out you were cold?"  What if our car broke and we couldn't get to town for a long time?"  etc).

My priority for my kids' homeschool education is that they develop life skills, interpersonal skills, self-sufficiency skills, critical thinking skills, communication skills.  I value those kinds of things more highly than academics these days.

Honestly, my parenting is evolving in response to all sorts of things, only one of which is my awareness of how things in the world are changing.  I don't see an abrupt change in my parenting on the horizon.  But I am thankful that we disengaged from the mainstream several years ago and have had time to gradually forge our own unique path.

I think my kids already "get it," in the way that kids so openly accept what is.  Their reality is already infused with an understanding that their future will most likely not look like their present.   I  don't think it will catch them by surprise.  Because they are expecting it, I don't think they'll be clinging to past ways as hard as most adults will.  A few times my oldest has mentioned "When I'm sixteen and I have a car..." and it has turned into a conversation about why he probably won't have a car when he's sixteen, and he's accepted that. 

I think open, honest, loving communication, along with support for strong emotions as they come up, is the best way to ease the path.  And a sense of family solidarity, and a positive outlook.  I know my outlook shapes my kids' attitudes, and I want to present life as a positive journey even when there are challenges.  Having kids keeps me on my best behavior in this way - I spin it positive for them, and I find myself believing in my optimism as they reflect it back to me.  It's very powerful.  

Dear, dear Amanda;

Your direct and heartfelt response has truly made my evening.  So very reassuring to hear from one who has integrated her beliefs into the very fabric of her family life.  The integrity with which you have examined your own values, and consciously chosen your path is truly inspiring.  How very rewarding it must be to find that your determination to impart true life skills to your children has proven to be so essential.  Authentic is the word that springs to mind as you describe the nature of your candid conversations with your children. . . . . It's no wonder that they are adjusting to reality so well as you are setting a fine example for them . . . . . . Kids have an uncanny ability to detect untruths, (In reality they simply have not unlearned this God-given ability.) and they are quick to call us on it, until mainstream education suppresses the tendency.  Thank you so much for taking the time from your very busy day to share your heart with us.  How prescient your own mother was in naming you . . . . . . The first hit on Googling the meaning of your name is '"she who must be loved" . . . . . Indeed!

 

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Re: Children of the Crash

 I will not tell how many children my husband and I have... more than the 1.8  accepted  national number . They all know they are  loved and cherished . But I will say they range from 29-11  .  We have always homeschooled and they understand that our family is different in our values. 

 The adult children are doing honest work to pay into the system and have no debt.

  We have lived in or visited 8  countries and have seen how the elderly are treasured and respected  .... all the generations live together or close by .... the grandparents help raise the children until it is time for the children to care for the grandparents.   This I see leads to a strong sense of belonging .  The grandparents have so much patience and wisdom to pass down.

We are now back home living with  our adult children and our parents( 4 generations ) within 15 miles.  We have had many  fun times preparing for TSTHTF  . Teaching or learning carpentry skills , training horses to buggy , canning , gardening , etc.  The young ones love to learn how to make soap, render lard  quilt and spin yarn from Granny or aunts. Many hand makes the work so much faster and easier .   Each person uses  their talent as is needed .   The children know  that  to be able to work is a blessing  and they will need to work until they die .They understand  it is not about selfishness  but what we can do for each other.    I can not even imagine trying to prepare or survive through the times ahead without each doing their part .    How is grandpa suppose to put up his own wood  and such?  Who is going to bath and feed grandma when she no longer can?

We do not put so much stock in Higher education as we do on apprenticeships that they get paid to learn a skill instead of paying  to learn .   We have always taught them to think outside the box and  have encourage them in the area that their talent lies.

 We go without electricity and communication( not a favorite of the teens )  for up to a week to find out where our storage  has its  shortfall .

  Anyway .. I say be honest with the children ... teach them History and how the economy works ... everyone is going to pay for the past mistakes and you are not doing them a favor shielding them from it... Or allowing them to pretend the world will continue as it always has.

  I am  so grateful  for my grand-babies hugs and giggles.   Also the understanding  that  when I can  no longer care for myself ,they will be there for me.

   When the money crashes and you can not care for yourself ...Who will be there for you ?  Hope you have enough Gold  to pay for someone to care .

Diana

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DrKrbyLuv
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Re: Children of the Crash

PlicketyCat said:

Maybe you could get her involved in what you're doing to prepare. Get her to come over and help you shop for supplies, put up food, do other prep projects. Take her to a range and teach her how to fire a gun, or go with her to a self-defense class. She might be willing to do it if you seem to be asking for her help rather than pushing her into something... then hopefully she'll realize what's she's learning and run with it.

Ms Cat - thank you very much for your words of wisdom, I took your advice.  My younger daughter is going shooting with me and I had a bit of surprise after inviting her.  Turns out that she dated a guy who was a sport shooting enthusiast (I just thought he was crazy, but was always polite).  They practiced shotguns (clay pigeons) and shot targets with handguns. My wife never allowed guns in the house and I was kinda surprised that my daughter wasn't afraid of them.

PlicketyCat said:

(FWIW - I'm in the opposite predicament, an adult child trying to convince her parents that they need to prepare. It's frustrating in either direction. You have my sympathies!)

Yea, I'm worried on that end too.  My mom is 91 (I was a "late and unexpected baby") and she is as sharp as a tack mentally and almost totally independent (she chooses not to drive).  She is always up to date with the news, constantly reads and closely follows most sports. 

I do not want to scare her but as you might expect, she has heard me complain about the Federal Reserve for a number of years now - books, history, DVDs (she's heard some of CC), articles and the pride/embarrassment of having a not-so-young idealistic son who travels long distances in order to participate in public protests and advocate contrarian opinions.

One night, around a year or two ago; I almost fell off my chair when she told me that during a break in cards (poker or bridge no doubt) that there was some discussion over politics and a potential economic crisis looming ahead.  The surprise was that she suggested to her friends that there was no reason for the national debt and that the most important thing was to "End the Fed"

I'm very fortunate to have her perspective on the coming depression, after all, she lived through one.  She tells me that people will be happy to help one another more than ever before - emanating from the most basic family unit - I think this is reassuring..

Larry

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Re: Children of the Crash
Diana wrote:

 I will not tell how many children my husband and I have... more than the 1.8  accepted  national number . They all know they are  loved and cherished . But I will say they range from 29-11  .  We have always homeschooled and they understand that our family is different in our values. 

 The adult children are doing honest work to pay into the system and have no debt.

  We have lived in or visited 8  countries and have seen how the elderly are treasured and respected  .... all the generations live together or close by .... the grandparents help raise the children until it is time for the children to care for the grandparents.   This I see leads to a strong sense of belonging .  The grandparents have so much patience and wisdom to pass down.

We are now back home living with  our adult children and our parents( 4 generations ) within 15 miles.  We have had many  fun times preparing for TSTHTF  . Teaching or learning carpentry skills , training horses to buggy , canning , gardening , etc.  The young ones love to learn how to make soap, render lard  quilt and spin yarn from Granny or aunts. Many hand makes the work so much faster and easier .   Each person uses  their talent as is needed .   The children know  that  to be able to work is a blessing  and they will need to work until they die .They understand  it is not about selfishness  but what we can do for each other.    I can not even imagine trying to prepare or survive through the times ahead without each doing their part .    How is grandpa suppose to put up his own wood  and such?  Who is going to bath and feed grandma when she no longer can?

We do not put so much stock in Higher education as we do on apprenticeships that they get paid to learn a skill instead of paying  to learn .   We have always taught them to think outside the box and  have encourage them in the area that their talent lies.

 We go without electricity and communication( not a favorite of the teens )  for up to a week to find out where our storage  has its  shortfall .

  Anyway .. I say be honest with the children ... teach them History and how the economy works ... everyone is going to pay for the past mistakes and you are not doing them a favor shielding them from it... Or allowing them to pretend the world will continue as it always has.

  I am  so grateful  for my grand-babies hugs and giggles.   Also the understanding  that  when I can  no longer care for myself ,they will be there for me.

   When the money crashes and you can not care for yourself ...Who will be there for you ?  Hope you have enough Gold  to pay for someone to care .

Diana

Again, I am blown away by the discovery of the those who have been quietly building lives of integrity and of the heart.  This phrase:  "When the money crashes and you can not care for yourself ...Who will be there for you ?  Hope you have enough Gold  to pay for someone to care ."  . . . . particularly struck me, as I have noticed the emphasis on guns and gold within the CM population, and have wondered whether there are folks who think these constitute a complete plan.  It worries me that some posters seem to be focused exclusively on these topics, and that makes me wonder about the depth of their preparation.

This, and the preceding post by Amanda could have fit just as nicely in the thread, "On Affairs of the Heart", here:  http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/affairs-heart/18993

At the risk of inciting the ire of the depopulation crowd, I say, no need to be shy about the size of your family, Diana . . . . . you are obviously supremely qualified for the task of nurturing well-rounded, grounded, contributing family.  There's always a shortage of that . . . . . .

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Re: Children of the Crash
DrKrbyLuv wrote:

PlicketyCat said:

Maybe you could get her involved in what you're doing to prepare. Get her to come over and help you shop for supplies, put up food, do other prep projects. Take her to a range and teach her how to fire a gun, or go with her to a self-defense class. She might be willing to do it if you seem to be asking for her help rather than pushing her into something... then hopefully she'll realize what's she's learning and run with it.

Ms Cat - thank you very much for your words of wisdom, I took your advice.  My younger daughter is going shooting with me and I had a bit of surprise after inviting her.  Turns out that she dated a guy who was a sport shooting enthusiast (I just thought he was crazy, but was always polite).  They practiced shotguns (clay pigeons) and shot targets with handguns. My wife never allowed guns in the house and I was kinda surprised that my daughter wasn't afraid of them.

PlicketyCat said:

(FWIW - I'm in the opposite predicament, an adult child trying to convince her parents that they need to prepare. It's frustrating in either direction. You have my sympathies!)

Yea, I'm worried on that end too.  My mom is 91 (I was a "late and unexpected baby") and she is as sharp as a tack mentally and almost totally independent (she chooses not to drive).  She is always up to date with the news, constantly reads and closely follows most sports. 

I do not want to scare her but as you might expect, she has heard me complain about the Federal Reserve for a number of years now - books, history, DVDs (she's heard some of CC), articles and the pride/embarrassment of having a not-so-young idealistic son who travels long distances in order to participate in public protests and advocate contrarian opinions.

One night, around a year or two ago; I almost fell off my chair when she told me that during a break in cards (poker or bridge no doubt) that there was some discussion over politics and a potential economic crisis looming ahead.  The surprise was that she suggested to her friends that there was no reason for the national debt and that the most important thing was to "End the Fed"

I'm very fortunate to have her perspective on the coming depression, after all, she lived through one.  She tells me that people will be happy to help one another more than ever before - emanating from the most basic family unit - I think this is reassuring..

Larry

Hi, Larry;

Thanks for sharing your story of bringing both youngsters and oldsters "on board".  I, too, had a surprise when I finally decided that it was time to bring my inlaws in on "the plan". . . . . We had held off on discussing the true state of the matter with them, as they are both a tad nervous by nature . . . . . . As it turns out, they instantaneously "got it", and after a week or so of getting "what if this . . . . " and "what if that . . . . " calls, they settled right into their new view of the future, and though they are in their 80's and were never particularly flexible folks, if you know what I mean, they've been easily shifting gears toward more sustainable practices. 

The remarkable thing is that they actually seem less nervous than they were before our "re-education" efforts.  It's as though they had sensed, all along, that something was deeply wrong, but couldn't put their finger on it.  Now that they've seen The Monster, and confronted it face-to-face, it's not as scary as it seemed before the lights were turned on. . . . . . I think the idea of an impending collapse was an easier sell for them, as they, indeed, have lived through one depression, and they don't have the false belief that "that sort of thing can't happen here and now". 

 

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Full Moon
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Re: Children of the Crash

  One thing I do think we need to be thinking some on is socialization.   Those who have teens and young adults know how important this is .  If we have little or no Internet or cell phone communication they will have trouble adjusting .   I have  seen if they have friends they are happy with very little of the worldly trappings.    I also  have seen that their friends know we are different but do not care .They are  happy to learn to hunt  and fish  and  a trip down the river on inner-tubes is a lot of fun too.    I think we are meant to be social beings and around here the more the merrier .   Especially when it comes to the more difficult chores . And I so like know where my kids are, what they are doing , and who they are with .

  I am buying hard copy of books  and printing the materials off the Internet  they might need in case something happens to the elder family members .  

 Some of our children do  web based school  and I feel we need hard book back up here also . Yes our home library is rather large and at times it did not make sense to buy with a library 6 miles down the road but i am sure I will be glad to have the stash of reading material whe the time comes.

  I  probably should have had them in Boy scouts or something ... they have good survival programs .   But we were so busy getting ready I neglected the fact that they were available .  Plus I did not think I had any more time I wanted to spend volunteering !

  We must teach our children well enough that they will be able to help others... . Sooner the better .  I  welcome any ideas that people are finding to keep the family  focused  and trained .

  I keep having the feeling we are running out of time fast .

 Diana

 

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Re: Children of the Crash

c1oudfire said:

The remarkable thing is that they actually seem less nervous than they were before our "re-education" efforts.  It's as though they had sensed, all along, that something was deeply wrong, but couldn't put their finger on it.

hello c1oudfire!  I've noticed the same thing.  Intuitively, many people know that something is very wrong and that things are spinning out of control.  My wife has an old high school friend who I happened to be friends with when we were small kids.  We rarely see one another, but last night we went out to dinner with her and her hubby.  

They invited us and mentioned that they were very interested in hearing about the Federal Reserve.  Haha, I was as excited as a teenager going out on a date and imagining the prospects for intimacy.  I keep flyers, DVDs and suggested links in my SUV at all times and freely hand them out.  It is always great when someone gets back to me.

I collect 1963 $2 and $5 "United States Notes" (Kennedy executive order 11110) and I hand them out to people who sit through my spiel.  You can buy them cheap on e-bay.  I ask them to pull out some paper money and then I point to the "Federal Reserve Note" and compare it with the beautiful "United States Note" (FRNs are tokens of debt while the USN is money).


Larry

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Re: Children of the Crash
DrKrbyLuv wrote:

I collect 1963 $2 and $5 "United States Notes" (Kennedy executive order 11110) and I hand them out to people who sit through my spiel.  You can buy them cheap on e-bay.  I ask them to pull out some paper money and then I point to the "Federal Reserve Note" and compare it with the beautiful "United States Note" (FRNs are tokens of debt while the USN is money).


Larry

Hi Larry;

Well, I just had to have one of those U.S. Notes, so I clicked on the link provided, and I don't think it took me where you intended.  Please let me know where I can get one.  Thanks!

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Re: Children of the Crash

Hi c1oudfire,

I grabbed a beautiful, uncirculated, pristine (no folds, creases or fingerprints) 1963 $2 USN Red Seal from my collection and I'm sending it to you as a gift tomorrow.  It's a gem, and very suitable for framing.  It is indeed appropriate that Jefferson is featured on this note. 

You may still want to buy a lesser quality one to show and allow people to freely handle it.  You can find some at this link.  Unfortunately the selection is not very good right now, with most coming from dealers who look for top dollar.

After we fire the Fed, I hope John Kennedy will be featured on one of our new US Notes.  Speaking of Kennedy, you may have seen this video (the secret bank) narrated by the late and great Aaron Russo (the guy in the video is Ben Stills from Money Masters).  If not, it's a short view and Kennedy's words will give you goose bumps.

Larry

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Re: Children of the Crash
DrKrbyLuv wrote:

Hi c1oudfire,

I grabbed a beautiful, uncirculated, pristine (no folds, creases or fingerprints) 1963 $2 USN Red Seal from my collection and I'm sending it to you as a gift tomorrow.  It's a gem, and very suitable for framing.  It is indeed appropriate that Jefferson is featured on this note. 

You may still want to buy a lesser quality one to show and allow people to freely handle it.  You can find some at this link.  Unfortunately the selection is not very good right now, with most coming from dealers who look for top dollar.

After we fire the Fed, I hope John Kennedy will be featured on one of our new US Notes.  Speaking of Kennedy, you may have seen this video (the secret bank) narrated by the late and great Aaron Russo (the guy in the video is Ben Stills from Money Masters).  If not, it's a short view and Kennedy's words will give you goose bumps.

Larry

What can I say, Larry . . . . . . You choked me up a bit . . . . .  Thank you, so much! . . . . . . You can be sure I'll treasure your gift, always.

As for the video, yes, it's one of my favorites. . . . . . . I especially like that it opens with Kennedy's speech to the press . . . . . . Wow, that says it right there, doesn't it?  I don't know if I ever shared this with you, but:  Long before I ever stumbled on any of the "conspiracy" literature, and when I was still a spiritual agnostic, when I would contemplate my own death, the thing that would bother me most is that I would never know how things worked out for mankind . . . . . . . and in some prescient way, when I shared this frustration with a few close friends, I would give the Kennedy assassination as one of the events that I felt I needed to understand better. . . . . . . Somehow, I knew that if I understood that incident . . . . . . . that is, if I understood "who?" and "why?"  . . . . . . I would then understand much about how the world works. . . . . . Little did I know how accurate that intuition was! 

Addendum:  Oops, Larry. . . . . . I think I just hijacked my own thread! . . . . . Back to Children of the Crash!

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Re: Children of the Crash

Well, my husband and I are unique so far in the thread (so far as anyone has said, anyway) in that we actually were familiar with the problems we face before we had our child, so, naturally, we've thought about this subject quite a lot.  Also, because our daughter is still quite young--21 months old--the things that we are doing with her to help the transition are, often, very concrete and simple. 

For example, we've taken her out in all weather since she was an infant, and, for the most part, only dressed her as warmly as we dress ourselves...that is, for example, we'd only really bundle her up if she was to be outside for quite a while.  Not trying to prevent her from the sensation of being cold, just from actually getting chilled, if you understand.  We also let her get dirty, wet, etc.  She's not going to live a sanitized, air-conditioned life, so why start that way?

Another big one is that we try to teach her to really be an observer--to look at the big things and the little things, gather data and draw conclusions about the world around her without recourse to a book or a teacher.  We feel that close observation is a nearly dead skill, and so important for living closer to the land.  So if she's looking at rocks, I squat down and look too...I point out different colors or shapes of rocks.  And I fight my own kneejerk impulses and let her play with the ants and box elder bugs.

We also feel that it's important to keep her toys few, simple, and quality, and also to value used or hand-me-down possessions as highly as new ones.  She is not permitted to abuse her books and toys the way I've seen other kids do--she is expected to be gentle with them and, when she can understand the concept better, to make them last.

More pragmatically, we also try to collect things in advance for her future, in case they're harder to get (whether for societal or personal reasons) later on--I have a large and ever-growing stash of clothes, books, educational materials, shoes, even sometimes toys that I've gotten almost entirely from yard sales and consignment sales.

I do sometimes get a bit torn up about the greatly contracted opportunities I think my children will face--I don't expect astrophysicist or marine biologist or opera singer to be on the list of seriously possible careers for my children, for example.  And when I think too much about climate change, I start to feel really sorry for them.  But mostly, I'm very grateful that my daughter is very young, and that, however impoverished our future may seem to us, to her generation it will just be reality, and they will have plenty of chances to make their own happiness without the bitterness older children and adults might feel.

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Re: Children of the Crash

  Amy ,  It is so hard to raise the children to be aware  and observant .  For one we have a selfish nature and for another the world as is now is to overstimulating  and busy .   Young people have so many gadgets to distract them from the things that are important .

As a parent it is hard to decide among all the" good opportunities "  such as play groups, swim team,  drama clubs , 4-h , scouts ... well you get the  picture .  Then when you get too involved and the focus is going in the wrong direction it is hard to make the choice of what to quit. 26 years ago we decided to home school to keep our family together , to love  each other , not let the children be peer dependant .   We have never regretted the decision .     They are all well behaved individuals  who think  for themselves and think outside the box . They can interact with all age groups , respecting others and themselves . 

 Of Course  we make mistakes but  have told the kids  that we are not perfect  .. like they didn't know it.  We were harder on the first ones and may be getting too tired and lenient on the last ones .

  You will have a happy little girl that is not trapped by the desire to have too many possessions and the need to have the latest 'thing 'to impress her friends ..     Try to find friends that have the same values as you do and it will help the children to not think they are weird or act out in rebellion because they think you are to strict and confining  .

 Make life and learning fun and exciting .  Hands on learning is the best anyway you decide is right for your family.

 I do not see the new world  we are going to live in as an all bad thing .

 

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Re: The New World We Are Going to Live in
Diana wrote:

 I do not see the new world  we are going to live in as an all bad thing .

 

Hi, Diana;

So good to hear someone else looking toward our contracting future as a positive thing . . . . . Indeed, sometimes less is more.  (See my earlier thread, "Is the Economic Crisis a Bad Thing", here:  http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/economic-crisis-bad-thing/15074, and "Things I Won't Miss after TSHTF", here:  http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/things-i-wont-miss-after-tshtf/16451

As my husband and I adjust our lifestyles to better fit the world as it will be, I am often struck by how much more authentic our activities are.  Instead of abruptly rising to an alarm clock, to apply a variety of toxic petrochemicals to my face and hair so that I am well accepted by my coworkers, I rise when I wake up naturally with the dawn, and after washing up with handmade soaps whose ingredients I understand and trust, I brush my teeth with a similarly homemade concoction (for more info, see:  The Homemade Concoctions Thread, here:  http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/homemade-concoctions/16437), finger-comb my hair, doff a hat, and off I go to the garden.  I used to spend my days as a small part of a healthcare system whose methods and motives I had long since begun to question, administering a raft of more-or-less toxic medications, with little curative efficacy.  These spring days, I spend most of my day doing the requisite tasks to produce toxin-free, nutrient-rich food for my family, and perhaps a few additional individuals, with the assurance that we will be less likely to develop one of the many diseases endemic to our "modern civilization".  Because of our demanding occupations, there used to be days when my husband and I literally would not see each other at all for two or three days, despite the fact that we came home to the same house each evening . . . . . . Now, as often as not, we spend several hours each day working together on some aspect of preparedness and/or sustainability, and discussing our plans for the future.

Indeed, as I move closer to a life of having less, and doing more, life feels more vivid, and to an increasing degree, I see our oil-glutted existance receding into the past, within a surrealistic aura.  Yes, there are many transitions ahead of us that will be difficult. . . . . . But I'll take that any day over an existance that constantly had me wondering how in the world we had lost our way . . . . . .

 

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Amanda Witman
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Re: Children of the Crash
Amy Selmer wrote:

For example, we've taken her out in all weather since she was an infant, and, for the most part, only dressed her as warmly as we dress ourselves...that is, for example, we'd only really bundle her up if she was to be outside for quite a while.  Not trying to prevent her from the sensation of being cold, just from actually getting chilled, if you understand.  We also let her get dirty, wet, etc.  She's not going to live a sanitized, air-conditioned life, so why start that way?

Another big one is that we try to teach her to really be an observer--to look at the big things and the little things, gather data and draw conclusions about the world around her without recourse to a book or a teacher.  We feel that close observation is a nearly dead skill, and so important for living closer to the land.  So if she's looking at rocks, I squat down and look too...I point out different colors or shapes of rocks.  And I fight my own kneejerk impulses and let her play with the ants and box elder bugs.

Amy, I loved these thoughts!  Thank you.

We also lead a relatively unsanitized life, and (for example) because we are home so much, I let my kids wear stained and and worn-out clothes.  If they were out in the world all the time (school, paid activities) I imagine I would feel pressure to dress them in less worn-out clothes.  Though I still find myself admonishing my kids to take care of their clothing and other items and to assume that we are not planning to replace them (so no leaving wet clothes in a heap to get moldy, etc).  We talk frequently about taking care of clothing so that the next person in our hand-me-down chain can wear them...and the next...and the next... (clothing my girls outgrow goes through three other families, if it lasts that long!)  Same with toys - care for them so we don't have to put oil (plastic) in the trash (if they happen to be plastic) - we want to be good stewards so someone else can make use of our things when we no longer need them.  But I think it does take practice and modeling for kids to "get" these things; some kids need more help learning than others.  And we try to buy used, and/or durable, and/or mend things to extend their useful life.

I especially liked reading your thoughts on observation, and I'm going to keep that idea in mind with my kids.

I want to mention that I feel homeschooling helps us focus on the kind of learning that our family values, which is often quite different from what schools teach.  I think it would be much more challenging to instill our values if my kids were in schools or other groups where mainstream values dominate - values based on an outmoded lifestyle, based on an outmoded economic system...  I do not intend any criticism of anyone's right to choose mainstream schooling for their kids, but I do think homeschooling can be especially compatible with preparing kids for a different kind of future.

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Amy Selmer
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Posts: 16
Re: Children of the Crash

Thanks for the positive responses and good advice!  We, too, have every intention of homeschooling, although we would under any circumstances--though I've had at least my share of good teachers, I have little but distain for the public school system, and we live in the boonies, so any private school I might actually consider is at least 40 minutes away.  I also agree that the things our schools are teaching now are not the subjects most relevant to actually living in the future I expect--or, indeed, the present, but that's another rant.

On the subject of finding friends with similar values, we've been very fortunate.  In my county there is a "natural parenting" mom's group, which was designed specifically to support parenting practices like cloth diapering, EC (Elimination Communication), breastfeeding and extended breastfeeding, baby wearing, etc., all of which I consider to also be more sustainable practices, and, unsurprisingly, many of the families are quite like us--a lot of them homestead or cook traditional foods from scratch, several homeschool, one is an organic farmer, and a good handful, at least, are aware of and preparing for the problems we face.  It is definitely important for children to be able to feel that they're not the only ones that never buy freezie pops or have to help with the weeding or whatever.  I agree completely.

I guess I'll elaborate on a nuts-and-bolts subject--I do feel that if you're planning on having a baby or have a baby, cloth diapering and breastfeeding in particular are very important, because in addition to their many other advantages, they secure the supply of essential baby stuff.  I do occasionally get very upset thinking of the situations that could arise when parents who feed their children formula suddenly can't get it for one reason or another.  And because I cloth diaper, I have already on hand all the diapers my daughter, or indeed any subsequent children, will ever need.  Because I EC, on the other hand, she already hardly needs any at all--pretty much just for bedtime.  With a good diaper stash and a decent baby carrier, a nursling baby needs almost nothing besides.

I'd love to see this thread continue...I'd love to hear more specific instances and stories, more people chiming in...this is a topic that's obviously very important to me.

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