Can We Trust the Government?

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Mike Pilat
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Can We Trust the Government?

I'm creating this thread as an offshoot of the 9/11 / New World Order One.

As I previously stated in that thread, I think it is nearly impossible at this juncture to prove much of anything about 9/11. Even though we have evidence on either side of the arguments, it is difficult to draw solid conclusions and unfortunately I don't think  this challenge will improve in the future. The truth about 9/11, however, would have very little impact on my view of the government, and that view is: I simply default to distrust unless I have a very good reason otherwise. There are a number of reasons that I feel the government has not acted in the People's interests before. A couple of these reasons are:

1) FDR was warned by Australian intelligence 2 or 3 days before 12/7 that a Japanese carrier group was headed to Hawai'i. He did nothing in advance, but try to imagine what happened to his approval ratings after his December 8th speech.

2) Our own CIA has given LSD to individuals without their informed consent, has planned and executed political assassinations in secret, and has been implicated in numerous corrupt arms and drugs deals.

I just want to open this thread to give anyone an opportunity to put forth any of the instances where they feel less than certain that the government is acting in an upfront and moral manner. I think that gaining further insight into proven historical incidents, we can have a better idea of the nature of government today. Let's do our best to focus on facts.

 

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?

Thanks Mike.

There is a fuzzy grey area between fact and conspiracy theory and the government wants to keep it that way so any facts look like conspiracy theories in the first place.

Crikey.  I have read hundreds of examples over years and years.  I can't remember it all here and now.  But I am convinced the CIA especially is corrupt as hell.

I read Jonathan Eisen's "Suppressed Inventions" a few years ago.  It is more along the lines of covering up medical cures (especially natural ones) esp for cancer and HIV but also some technologies.  It is a bit fuzzy in terms of possibly getting in to conspiracy theory territory too.  But when we look at the facts, and we have to put 2 and 2 together ourselves to get 4 - we are told we are promoting conspiracy. 

I am going to bring up a very very controversial topic here: child vaccinations.   People believe the authorities it is safe - yet the evidence against the effectiveness and safety is huge.  The links to autism (and its spectrum) are continually published.  Guess who has huge interest in the drug companies that promote these vaccines ?  Apparantly, the US government officials.  I've got all the books and info.  I don't read them any more, it is too depressing.  If you don't believe me, do your homework thoroughly before you vaccinate your kid - especially before the age of 2.  Do not put all your faith in the authorities when it comes to subjecting your child to this medical procedure.

As they say, it is very easy not to believe if you don't want to believe with almost any topic involving cover ups.

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?

Mike,

I've got something for you.  This isn't about something that's already happened, it's about something I'm afraid may happen:

Obama has taken to worshipping Lincoln at every opportunity.  At first, I thought this was just some PR ploy, or a manifestation of his ego.  However, his repeated references now make me wonder if there is something much larger at play. 

Regardless of anyone's opinion of Lincoln's results, these are just some of the methods he used to win the war:  he suspended habeas corpus (and used it to imprison critics without formal charges or trials); his usurped congress by declaring war unilaterally (only congress had the authority, he did so on his own); he used federal troops to fire upon and kill thousands of rioting citizens (and these were northeners he was trying to conscript into the army, mind you); he "passed" the Emancipation Proclamation unconstitutionally (no congressonal passage, just a unilateral declaration as commander in chief).

I do not want to make this a discussion about Lincoln, or what the civil war was really about (it wasn't about slavery).  Those issues can be debated elsewhere.

My point in bringing this up is this:  Is Obama trying to get us to celebrate Lincoln now because he believes it will help him justify "emergency" actions he believes he may need to take later?  I can easilly picture him saying, "One of our greatest Presidents, Abraham Lincoln, when faced with extraordinary challenges, had to resort to extraordinary measures.  It is under similar circumstances that today I ordered 10,000 troops into the city of ________ to restore order."

Some may call me kooky or paranoid for thinking this way, but if so, it's kept me alive and well so far.

Cheers,

kooky ole Pat

 

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?
Patrick Brown wrote:

Mike,

I've got something for you.  This isn't about something that's already happened, it's about something I'm afraid may happen:

Obama has taken to worshipping Lincoln at every opportunity.  At first, I thought this was just some PR ploy, or a manifestation of his ego.  However, his repeated references now make me wonder if there is something much larger at play. 

Regardless of anyone's opinion of Lincoln's results, these are just some of the methods he used to win the war:  he suspended habeas corpus (and used it to imprison critics without formal charges or trials); his usurped congress by declaring war unilaterally (only congress had the authority, he did so on his own); he used federal troops to fire upon and kill thousands of rioting citizens (and these were northeners he was trying to conscript into the army, mind you); he "passed" the Emancipation Proclamation unconstitutionally (no congressonal passage, just a unilateral declaration as commander in chief).

I do not want to make this a discussion about Lincoln, or what the civil war was really about (it wasn't about slavery).  Those issues can be debated elsewhere.

My point in bringing this up is this:  Is Obama trying to get us to celebrate Lincoln now because he believes it will help him justify "emergency" actions he believes he may need to take later?  I can easilly picture him saying, "One of our greatest Presidents, Abraham Lincoln, when faced with extraordinary challenges, had to resort to extraordinary measures.  It is under similar circumstances that today I ordered 10,000 troops into the city of ________ to restore order."

Some may call me kooky or paranoid for thinking this way, but if so, it's kept me alive and well so far.

Cheers,

kooky ole Pat

 

Hi Kooky - err, Pat.  Wink

Hadn't heard this one: "he used federal troops to fire upon and kill thousands of rioting citizens...". I know it's off-topic but would be interested if you could post a link to the info when you have a chance.

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?
Patrick Brown wrote:

Some may call me kooky or paranoid for thinking this way, but if so, it's kept me alive and well so far.

Cheers,

kooky ole Pat

 

Pat. You must never think you are paranoid or kooky for asking questions.  We must always question and reflect.  Not doing so has got us in to this mess in the first place.  You are not kooky, you are a thinker.  And one of the few thinkers left, as the majority of Americans believe what they are told by the authorities without question, like obedient little citizens.

 

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?

Does anybody know who owns the majority of the newspapers and media ? (and therefore has power and control over what we are told or not told)

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?
Sam Linder wrote:

Hi Kooky - err, Pat.  Wink

Hadn't heard this one: "he used federal troops to fire upon and kill
thousands of rioting citizens...". I know it's off-topic but would be
interested if you could post a link to the info when you have a chance.

My reference is from "The Creature From Jekyll Island".  The source reference from "The Creature" is, "The American Heritage Picture History of the Civil War". 

From page 381 of Jekyll:

Quote:

When conscription was initiated by Lincoln in 1863, people in the North were outraged.  In New York's Madison Square, thousands of protesters marched in torch parades and attended anti-Lincoln rallies.  Historian James Horan desribes the mood: "When caricatures of the President were lifted above the speaker's stand, hisses rose to fill the night with the noise of a million angry bees."  Federal troops eventually had to be called in to put down antidraft riots in Ohio and Illinois.  In New York City, when the first names of the draft were published in the papers on July 12, mobs stormed the draft offices and set fire to buildings.  The riots continued for four days and were suppressed only when the federal Army of the Potomac was ordered to fire into the crowds.  Over a thousand civilians were killed or wounded.

My apologies in suggesting "thousands" were killed.  Apparently there were over a thousand killed or wounded.  

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?

Patrick, I have no doubt that's why Obama keeps referring to Lincoln.  You're not a kook.  The feds are going to turn on the people as this economic collapse continues and/or when a domestic "terror" attack happens. 

Amanda, according to those who have researched the banking interests behind the creation of the Fed (Rothschilds, Rockefeller, Morgan, etc), they own controlling interests in Reuters and AP which are the sources that feed all the news into the US networks and major newspapers.  In addition, they supposedly figured out that they'd only need to buy controlling interest in relatively few delivery channels (i.e. New York Times, Chicago Tribune, NBC, ABC, CBS, etc) in order to basically control US opinion.

Mike, there are hundreds of things I'll avoid listing about not trusting government and would rather simply state they have completely overturned the constitutional framework of a federal republic where power sits at the state and individual level.  That alone is why I don't trust national-level government at all.  

 

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?
Amanda V wrote:

Does anybody know who owns the majority of the newspapers and media ? (and therefore has power and control over what we are told or not told)

Amanda,

I don't know who "owns the majority of the newspapers and media" but Rudolph Murdoch owns a huge chunk in the US!

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?

I think many (perhaps most) beaurocrats from the POTUS on down that hold Federal or State offices will tend to expand and abuse the power of the office that they hold if not held in check. It is necessary to speak up and call attention to any and all illegal and abusive policies. This brings me to my point about a free, independent and fair press. 

The first line of defense in any republic is for the people to actually know the truth and the implications of actions taken by these politicians including the POTUS. I don't think that we have an unbiased and independent press anymore. It is my belief that the mainstream press and television news is so enamored with the new president that they will tend to give him a pass when they should be howling that he is doing the wrong thing

It is one thing for an organization like CIA to take covert actions that are clearly  illegal but it is far worse for the President to issue an illegal "proclomation" and have it go unchallenged.

 

Ken

 

 

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?

this often happens on threads so i will apologize in advance.

lincoln was one of the worst things to happen to our constitutional republic. he was a hamiltonian thru and thru. he was a firm believer in the expanded powers of a central government. states rights were obviously anathema to him.

he moved the federal government further away from the people than any other president.

little known fact of history is that he was the chief counsel for the major railroads. equivalent today of being the chief counsel for exxon mobil . so much for the revisionist history of the plain spoken bumpkin from kentucky. he was connected.

i can certainly see why obama would wrap himself in the myth of lincoln. 

i guess this is in some way of saying trust the government? why shoot sure i do why i take a blue pill every evening with my warm glass of mother's milk. government gonna be real good to me ....pay my mortgage, my gas bill, my electric bill, my food bill. life is good................real good no complaint from me

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?

http://www.commoncause.org/site/pp.asp?c=dkLNK1MQIwG&b=2127045  

TELEVISION

 

FACT:  Viacom owns CBS; General Electric owns NBC; Disney owns ABC; and News Corporation owns Fox Broadcasting Company.  ABC's corporate parent is the Walt Disney Company. 

Disney owns 10 television stations, 50 radio stations, ESPN, A&E, the History Channel, Discover magazine, Hyperion publishing, Touchstone Pictures, and Miramax Film Corp.  Viacom owns 39 television stations, 184 radio stations, The Movie Channel, BET, Nickelodeon, TV Land, MTV, VH1, Simon & Schuster publishing, Scribner, and Paramount Pictures.  General Electric owns 13 television stations, CNBC, MSNBC, and Bravo.  News Corp. owns 26 television stations, FX, Fox News Channel, TV Guide, the Weekly Standard, New York Post, DirecTV, the publisher HarperCollins, film production company Twentieth Century Fox and the social networking website MySpace.

Currently, six major companies control most of the media in our country.  The FCC could decide to relax media ownership rules, which would allow further consolidation and put decisions about what kinds of programming and news Americans receive in even fewer hands.

 

FACT:  Since 1995, the number of companies owning commercial TV stations declined by 40 percent.

 

If the FCC votes to relax media ownership limits, it could further erode diversity of ownership at the local level and increase the influence of large media conglomerates.  In 2003, the regulations restricting a broadcast company from owning stations that reach beyond 35% of American households were loosened to 39%.

 

CABLE

 

FACT:  Three media giants own all of the cable news networks.  Comcast and AOL Time Warner serve 40 percent of cable households.

 

Many proponents of deregulation site the expanded numbers of cable stations to argue that media sources are more diverse than they once were. The reality is that -- while there may be more stations -- they are still controlled by a small number of media companies.

 

FACT: Cable TV rates have jumped 40 percent since the Telecom Act of 1996.

 

The Telecommunications Act of 1996 was, in part, meant to increase competition in the cable industry. The Act was heavily influenced by industry lobbyists and has had the opposite effect.

 

RADIO

 

FACT: The Telecommunications Act of 1996 lifted ownership limits for radio stations, leading to incredible consolidation of radio station ownership. One company alone, Clear Channel Inc., now owns nearly 1,200 radio stations across the country. Before the change, a company could not own more than 40 stations nationwide.

 

Several large stations owned by Clear Channel briefly banned the music of the Dixie Chicks because of their critical comments about President George W. Bush.  Stations owned by Infinity have also banned certain musicians based on their political views.

INTERNET

 

FACT: Major corporations, including AOL Time Warner, the New York Times, CNN, ABC News and USA Today dominate the top Internet news sites.

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?

Trust the government? 

Eisenhower warned us:

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

The 1947 NSA act was our collective undoing.  Everything can now be classified as an "Issue Of National Security".  This allows agencies to run amok.  For example: the over throwing of democratically elected leaders in other countries because of the threat of nationalizing resources for the peoples of their own countries and therefor effectively tossing out American corporate interest.  The two most prominent examples I can think of are the covert operation by the CIA to overthrow Iran's democratically elected leader Mohammed Mossadegh.  Done so to protect the oil fields from nationalization.  The other is the case of the United Fruit Company, here is the entry from Wikipedia:

In 1954, the democratically elected Guatemalan government of Colonel Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán was toppled by U.S.- backed forces lead by Colonel Carlos Castillo Armas[4] who invaded from Honduras. Assigned by the Eisenhoweradministration, this Arbenz government’s military opposition was armed, trained and organized by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency[5] (see Operation PBSUCCESS). The directors of United Fruit Company (UFCO) had lobbied to convince the Trumanand Eisenhower administrations that Colonel Arbenz intended to align Guatemala with the Soviet Bloc. Besides the disputed issue of Arbenz's allegiance to Communism, UFCO was being threatened by the Arbenz government’s agrarian reform legislation and new Labor Code.[6]UFCO was the largest Guatemalan landowner and employer, and the Arbenz government’s land reform included the expropriation of 40% of UFCO land.[7] U.S. officials had little proof to back their claims of a growing communist threat in Guatemala[8], however the relationship between the Eisenhower administration and UFCO demonstrated the influence of corporate interest on U.S. foreign policy.[9] The American Secretary of State John Foster Dulles was an avowed opponent of Communism whose law firm of Sullivan and Cromwell[10] had represented United Fruit. His brother Allen Dulleswas the director of the CIA. The brother of the Assistant Secretary of State for InterAmerican Affairs John Moors Cabot had once been president of United Fruit. Ed Whitman who was United Fruit’s principal lobbyist was married to President Eisenhower's personal secretary, Ann C. Whitman.[11] Many individuals who directly influenced U.S. policy towards Guatemala in the 1950s also had direct ties to UFCO

Notice the first sentence says democratically elected.  So our government overthrows another government for corporate interest.  That's some way to spread democracy and freedom.

On the thread that went into 9/11 yesterday I mentioned Operation Northwoods.  This involved using two airplanes for a false flag operation.  One plane was to have CIA students dressed as tourist board a plane in Miami and fly out.  A second plane flown by remote control would then meet the flight path of the first plane and proceed to get shot down.  This in turn would give the US the international incident needed to sway public opinion to invade Cuba.  This operation was signed off by the Pentagon's Joint Chiefs of Staff.  This was in 1962.  This is one reason I don't think it is a stretch of the imagination for something similar on 9/11 to have taken place.

Sometimes I think people lose sight of the fact that government is just a tool.  That tool can fall into the hands of the wrong people and can be used against the people it was designed to govern.  Our Second Amendment was put there in case this ever happened.  Somehow I think our government was highjacked about 60 years ago.

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?
Amanda V wrote:

Does anybody know who owns the majority of the newspapers and media ? (and therefore has power and control over what we are told or not told)

 

Amanda,

Here's a little link with a wealth of information: http://www.blueyonder.com/tw/bill-club.html

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?

I must say that I'm impressed that everyone has taken this thread and run with it! I left for a couple of hours to price out some solar components and it seems a lot has been generated in that time!

I listened to the interview that just came out with G. Edward Griffin on the Financial Sense newshour in which he described an unadvertised sort of program in the 1920's before the FDR government explosion. Griffin said that the program involved systematically revising textbooks for school children in order to promote collectivism as a very beneficial concept. I must clarify: I think voluntary collectivism on a small scale can be wonderful. Nationally managed and forced collectivism is perhaps the most tyrannical state one can live in.

Back on topic: Does anyone have any information on the topics that are taught in schools or what is promoted as part of the curriculum? Anything related to our education system would be welcome.

I don't mean this as a broad condemnation, but when I look back at my own high school experience, I can say that most of my teachers sacrificed some real insights for the sake of appearing unbiased in their presentation of history. Simply teaching the facts alone just doesn't work and my classrooms lacked any sort of impassioned debate or dissent. Teaching students that the Constitution is "simply" a document that outlines the structure of government is not enough, in my opinion. Students need to understand the purpose of a written constitution (personal Liberty) and the specific principles that where behind our Bill of Rights. I would have thought that the private school I went to could have been a little more independent in their approach...Bummer.

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?

Hi Amanda,

Who controls the media?

Here is an interesting link:

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/006/conspiracy1.htm

Here is a snip of what it covers, and note the last paragraph:

 According to the book Brotherhood of Darkness by Dr. Stanley Monteith, "J. P. Morgan and his associates financed the Republican Party, the Democratic Party, conservative groups, liberal organizations, communist groups and anti-communist organizations."[7] Political affiliations didn't matter all that much to the elite internationalists who considered themselves above political and national borders. As Quigley told us, the two main political parties became essentially the same to them:

"The chief problem of American political life...has been how to make the two Congressional parties more national and international. The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to doctrinaire and academic thinkers. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can 'throw the rascals out' at any election without leading to any profound or extensive shifts in policy."[8]

Both parties used the media to build the perception of opposing positions on key issues, while all the while building consensus on issues that were critical to social change. That's verified in the Congressional Record for 1917, which reported that "...the J.P. Morgan [banking] interests.... and their subsidiary organizations got together 12 men high up in the newspaper world and employed them to select the most influential newspapers in the United States and sufficient number of them to control generally the policy of the daily press of the US.... They found it was only necessary to purchase the control of 25 of the greatest papers. ...an editor was furnished for each paper to properly supervise and edit information...."[9]

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?

That resource above indicating Morgan interests (which are also Rothschild/Rockefeller interests) purchasing the 25 great papers is the key.  Those interests lie behind the corporations listed up in castlewp's post too. It's meaningless to just look at the corporations that own the media corporations.  A corporation is just a holding vessel, and they serve as depersonalized facades to hide the real people behind them.  One needs to look at the controlling interests behind the holding company.  These are the primary holders of the preferred voting shares of the corporation.  One finds the same old banking oligarchy interests owning those shares. And the largest portions of common shares are owned by banking interests, under the guise of institutional financial firms and funds. Bottom line is that if David Rockefeller calls a corporate CEO, that CEO does what he is told or he finds himself out of a job as the Board moves against him.

 

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?

Education is a potent force in any society. It is wise that you should ask about its influence in shaping the formative minds of our youth. The very fact that we send off children at such an early age through young adulthood to be raised by strangers is in itself an interesting cultural phenomenon. The fact that such custums and policies go unchecked largely contributes to our current societies' dilemma.

It so happens my girlfriend (read wife) is a public school teacher here in the Chicago suburbs. It's her first year. We talk alot about her work. Since she is a special-education teacher the red tape surrounding her work is even higher than for most. But for the average teacher there are federal and state mandated standards in No Child Left Behind which essentially stifle the possibility of innovative teaching methods or the teaching critical thinking. The common terminology teachers use is "teaching to the test". Since a school's funding (and by correlation a teacher's job) relies on funding tied to NCLB, doing well on the tests is the primary focus for teachers. 

The major flaw of this system is that standardized tests are by definition practices in convergent thinking. Such exercises cannot possibly come without some detriment to independent critical thinking. This is dangerous. Like
CM says, you get more of what you pay for. Standardized tests can indeed probe for aquired knowledge. You
either know how to multiply 2x2 or you don't. They can also prove comprehension of a text. You either can read the instructions of a macaroni box or you can't. But if you consult Bloom's Taxonomy, ( http://www.nwlink.com/~Donclark/hrd/bloom.html ) which is widely regarded as the gold standard of educational progress, you can see that the issues tested can only be of value at the knowledge and comprehension level. Completely ignored are the highest educational achievements of application, analysis, synthesis and evalution.

How important is it for students to perform an exponential
function and crank out a number if they do not understand the
consequences of those numbers in terms of population growth and
resource depletion. What use are the important dates of the American Revolution if the
students don't understand the principles upon which the nation was
founded and why they are important to their lives. Without granting our next generation the gift of proper analytic tools, we pass to them a hollow heritage. I personally see this failure everyday, as people fail to protest the loss of our civil liberties and the granting of our tax dollars to the politically well connected. If the goal of education is healthy,
intellegent, independent minded people we are on the wrong track. 

What makes this issue even more alarming is that each year that passes heightens the bar for student testing performance. So if the required reading comprehension level for a fifth grade class this year is 90% at-grade-level, next year the fifth grade tests must be at 95%. The eventual goal is 100% with some time horizon in the near future. I'm not sure what the numbers and dates are, but they reach 100%. Remember, my girlfriend is in Sped. Many of her students will never reach grade level. Many schools with children struggling with poverty, drugs, gangs, parental abuse or a myriad of issues which affect student performance will NEVER be 100%. With such impossible goals, turbulence is par for the coming.

Many people praise NCLB because they see lazy ineffectual teachers as the root problem in decreasing performance standards across the board for our nations' student tests. While I admit that I have seen this first hand in tenured teachers waiting for retirement, I feel some good old fashion monopoly busting can go a long way to solving the problem. School vouchers are an excellent step to eliminating the strangle hold of the teachers unions and big education apparatus. Such efforts, however would be completely worthless unless all regulation of the schools is prohibited. WHAT! you might say. Yes, that's right, allow parents to take that money and send their kid to a hobo in a box if they feel that is the best way to educate their kids. My guess is that parents will actually look for the best qualified people to invest in their children's future. The government has no business telling parents what to teach their children or who should teach it. I profoundly believe that when I have children, I will care about them more than some governement bureaucrat.

(Note: I knew about this issue, comprehended your question, applied it to my own experience, analysed a problem, synthesized a solution, and evaluted the solution.)

Also to answer your question, "Can we trust the government?": You can, and many do. But should you? NO,
NEVER. NEVER. NEVER. If we could trust the government, we wouldn't have a
Constitution.  

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?

Castlewp,

have we been here before...Smile

One person who I feel is very intriguing has to be Rupert Murdoch :-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Murdoch

 ...along the lines of how many newspaper groups he owns, the 100's of radio stations he's purchased over the last 15 years after the ruling for multiple radio media companies was altered in the USA and, most importantly, his ownership of 'The Fox News Network'. This is a man very worthwhile studying more indepth. As an example, there is much to believe that he played a great part in altering the allegiance of 'The Sun' Newspaper in England from Conservative to Labour in the 1997 elections, helping Tony Blair win.

Two favourite authors of mine are Jeanette Winterson and Dennis Potter. Jeanette Winterson publicly dropped her publisher HarperCollins Books when she found out that Ruppert Murdoch had taken over majority ownership. Denis Potter, who died tragically from pancreatic cancer in 1994, affectionately called his pancreas 'Rupert'. In his final television interview with Melvin Bragg on 'Without Walls'.

Let the 15 year old ghost of this beautiful man have the final word here...

A Parting Shot from Dennis Potter

Paul

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?

Murdoch is far less powerful than the hidden interests of the banking oligarchy behind Reuters, AP, NYT, Wash Post, NBC, CBS, ABC.

Murdoch puts his face in public and brags of his influence so we know how disgusting it is.  On the other hand, far more powerful Rothschild, Rockefeller, Warburg, Morgan, Loeb interests stay hidden in secret playing their pernicious games. They're chickensh*ts like most tyrants, afraid to face the public, letting their public operating officers (politicians, business execs, news editors) take the heat.  They are at the top of the secret society JFK tried to warn us about.

 

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?

Hi Jhelge,

I've been carrying John Taylor Gatto in my signature for about 2 weeks now, on the subject of teaching method and the filtering ability of critical thinking through schooling. I think your 'wife' would find this a very interesting read :-

http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html?seenIE...

I'd love to hear her thoughts to this. I recently met a Hungarian English literature teacher, who cried tears of laughter at the absolute reality that 'Gatto' had written. Far be it for me to say, it clicked into place how very frustrated she was with the system, and how it operates.

The method of teaching is not the reason that 'teachers' become teachers. I believe most 'nievely' began their careers with a completely different perspective than the one most lead today...

Paul

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?

Strabes,

I find Murdoch to be more of a 'Map' than an actual. Wherever his name is mentioned...

Paul

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Re: Can We Trust the Government?
SamLinder wrote:

I don't know who "owns the majority of the newspapers and media" but Rudolph Murdoch owns a huge chunk in the US!

And he is being quoted as saying that the current situation will define countries...... Glen Beck quoted this yesterday on Fox International.....

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Vanityfox451
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Re: Can We Trust the Government?

Hi Britinbe,

can you expand on what you've said further, I couldn't find a reference to it and I'm curious...Smile

Paul

 

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gyrogearloose
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Re: Can We Trust the Government?
Amanda V wrote:

I am going to bring up a very very controversial topic here: child vaccinations.   People believe the authorities it is safe - yet the evidence against the effectiveness and safety is huge.  The links to autism (and its spectrum) are continually published. 

As they say, it is very easy not to believe if you don't want to believe with almost any topic involving cover ups.

 

Evidence against their effectiveness is huge ????? 

Do you know what polio is, ? smallpox?  whooping chough ?

If you don't it is thanks to vaccinations.

There is clear evidence that a very small percentage of children have up to lethal reactions to vaccinations.

From memory from some time ago, a child had a severe ( wheal chair bound as a result ) to a measles vaccination. Front page news. Stats at the time were roughly that this level of reaction happens once every 3 years. Something like 80% of children vaccinated. In the remaining 20%, every couple of years a measles epidemic kills 3 and blinds and or paralyzes a few more. These cases don't make such good news story so they slip by in the 5th page.

I have shaken my head in disbelief at some articles in the papers which trumpet in big letters at the top "Vaccinations ineffective " with no qualifications. But buried at the bottom of a longish article is the kernel of truth, that a vaccinations effectiveness is considerably reduced or eliminated if it is given within a few days either way of having a cold or such like. Headline very misleading and easily misinterpreted.

All I remember about links to autism is something about a study in the UK, that has since fallen into disrepute because something like some of the people who wrote it had taken, without disclosing, money from people who would make money from a link. All very vague memories now, but without new compelling reports, my choices are influenced by those memories.

Cheers from a vaccinated Hamish, with vaccinated kids.

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britinbe
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Re: Can We Trust the Government?
Vanityfox451 wrote:

Hi Britinbe,

can you expand on what you've said further, I couldn't find a reference to it and I'm curious...Smile

Paul

 

Paul,

check out www.glenbeck.com.  I think the quote was also given during his interview with Zimmerman that was posted a few days ago. 

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Mike Pilat
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Posts: 929
Re: Can We Trust the Government?

jhelge: Very well said.

I often find it hard to see a bright future in America if some of our key societal groups don't get fully educated on what's going on and then stand firm in their convictions. I would feel much better if I had full confidence in our teachers, our military's allegiance to Liberty and the Constitution, and the media's independence. Of course, this just doesn't happen anymore.

The purpose of education is not to ram facts down the student's throats, it is to teach the student to think on their own. This necessarily requires divergent viewpoints and debate, which is mostly absent from our educational system. It is downright tyrannical and Orwellian for the government to manage the educational system and implement standards as if they truly help the students become better thinkers. Finally, it is a huge mistake to lay the responsibility of education entirely on the teachers and schools. Most of my real education was obtained because I made the effort to ask questions and find answers on my own. In some cases, the teachers inspired me to this end, but in most cases, I was totally on my own. And I don't blame the teachers for this. There's just so much they have time to teach in an 8 hour day. The point is, if parents and students are not focused on a child's education, then there isn't too much a teacher can do to get them past the comprehension level.

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TheRemnant
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Posts: 141
Re: Can We Trust the Government?

Can you ever trust a group of people with a monopoly on violence?

Government by its very nature is corrupt.  Once it takes hold of a geographical area, imposes a monopoly on violence by eliminating its competitors, imposes a central bank replacing free market money with paper tickets imposed on the citizens to loot from them via taxation and inflation, and bestows favours on those who seek its favours via lobby groups and corporate interest groups, can it be trusted?

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strabes
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Posts: 1032
Re: Can We Trust the Government?

Mike/jhelge, I think the whole notion of outsourcing the education of children to government-certified "professionals" who put the kids in processing plants called schools is the problem.  It doesn't matter how that system is tweaked...it won't work. It worked when schools were entirely local and it was basically the neighborhood and families educating their own children.  We need to get back to education being a core part of life growing up in family and neighborhood, not a big factory building that processes children through the certified routine.

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pjvalvo
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Posts: 8
Re: Can We Trust the Government?

To reply back to the main post:

Another example why we can not trust the government.

The Tuskegee Study was done by gov't doctors between 1932 and 1972. They used black men as guinea pigs for syphilis research. Their research used a control group of healthy men as well as a test group of men known to have syphilis. Throughout the length of the experiment the government went to extreme measures of limiting travel and denying external doctor visits to preserve the integrity of their experiment. Some men tried to escape and seek doctors in other towns but the government denied them the doctor visit and returned them to the site of the experiment. 

 

The men were given toxic and extremely painful injections. Spinal taps were used on a regular basis. None of the men were told they had syphilis and were thus uninformed to prevent further spreading of the disease. Participation in the experiment was not voluntary and one could not quit. Even after penicillin was discovered as a cure to syphilis in 1947 the experiment continued for another 25 years and the men were not allowed access to the life saving drug.

 

This is not a conspiracy, that is what happend.

 

-ilphae 

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grl
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Posts: 188
Re: Can We Trust the Government?

Amanda, I believe the science does not support your contention regarding vaccinations. Why don't you read some peer-reviewed studies on it. The research overwhelmingly disproves the theory that MMR causes autism. Of course, I suspect that since you are distrustful of those in power, you have reason to distrust any studies that come out of the medical establishment. Well, it wouldn't be a big deal but if you have kids and you don't vaccinate them, you endanger your entire community. Read what happened in San Diego a year or two ago.

Everyone: Don't get this wrong - I don't trust the government or the elites but let's stop being children. There has never been and there never will be a society without the elites running the show. The best we can do is stay vigilant.

 

 

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