Biometric ID card for workers of America

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investorzzo's picture
investorzzo
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Biometric ID card for workers of America

The biggest objections to the biometric cards may come from privacy advocates, who fear they would become de facto national ID cards that enable the government to track citizens.

"It is fundamentally a massive invasion of people's privacy," said Chris Calabrese, legislative counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union. "We're not only talking about fingerprinting every American, treating ordinary Americans like criminals in order to work. We're also talking about a card that would quickly spread from work to voting to travel to pretty much every aspect of American life that requires identification."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870395490457511012403706685...

 

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Re: Biometric ID card for workers of America

Not that i'm a big religious guy or anything, but can one say "mark of the beast" in this forum?

 

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Re: Biometric ID card for workers of America

All of this under the guise of curtailing illegal immigration.  One more big lie. 

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Re: Biometric ID card for workers of America

Speaking as someone whose husbands Soc. Sec. number was stolen, numerous loans and credit cards then taken out in my husbands name with the now stolen SS number and as someone who absolutely hates it when Costco swipes my member card and the same goes for our local Smith's grocery store so I pay cash when ever possible and shop at stores that do not require a member card in order to get a discount, so, after all that, oh yes, and 6 hours of waiting in the ER at the hospital and visibly seeing the illegal immigrants that are waiting ahead of me and seeing 45 students in my sons high school classes per one teacher and knowing a certain percent of the over crowding is because of the illegal immigrants...........................................After all that, I still say NO to .gov  plan of bipmetric cards!!!

If .gov wanted to stop illigal immigration they could today

If .gov and banks wanted to stop identity theft, they could today

If folks would refuse to shop at member card discount stores and pay cash and bank only at small local banks, they could

And, it doesn't take a .gov biometric card to do it.

Is the nose ring procedure so pain free that we don't even notice until the room temp dips to near freezing and the metal ring begins to feel like the blunt force object that it is ?    Forget telling folks they have a tail, we need to let them know they've got a nose ring !

 

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Re: Biometric ID card for workers of America

I find the libertarian view of what is and isnt governmental invasion of privacy sometimes inconsistent(I say that as a guy who sort of leans libertarian) .

For example, Libertarians have argued that roads could be maintained by private businesses.  These businesses would charge the people who use the roads, and therefore only useful safe roads would be used by individuals and individuals would only pay for what they used.  Taking it a step further, the private company would likely require your car to have an id transmitter similar to toll roads now so they could bill you.  Further, to make their road safe, they would likely implement safety restrictions so people would use their road.  They would require you not speed, and they may either give discounts to cars, or require that cars are outfitted with systems that prevent drunk people from driving.  These drunk avoidance systems are already available for a reasonable cost....but the government does not dare try and infrige on booze and driving privacy!

So, in a totally free system with little or no government, suddenly you get id monitors for your car, tracked constantly, they know if youre drunk, etc.  In other words, suddenly with way less government, private companies and citizens start requiring  more knowledge of what you are doing in order to improve their service to you....in order to provide and optimize their product so that you might use it.

So, how is a biometric card, which increases governmental efficiency and improves their ability to enforce laws more cheaply and effectively a bad thing? If the government is abusing powers, the people must reign them in....but if they are moving toward efficiency are you really arguiing against that?  The biometric card is great.  The possible...possible....abuse of its technology is not a reason to not implement it.

If we are more fearful of the abuse of all technology than of technology, then we lose all ability to move forward.  We are saying others are guilty without trial.  With freedom comes responsibility.  To be free, in a world this crowded with people, you must be willing to live without fear and when walking or interacting with others you must disclose some things in order for the system to work.  You cant exist in a vacuum.

If you dont trust the government, then vote out the leaders...change it.  If you are worried about their abuse of a biometric card, then doesnt it follow that they shouldnt have guns? 

The paranoia has to stop. 

 

V's picture
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Re: Biometric ID card for workers of America

The mark of the beast is on every bar code in the world.

Just because I am paranoid it doesn't mean THEY are still not out to get me. I will not have a government id card. They can arrest me and then i will get three squares, a roof over my head and a boyfriend named Bubba.....................well maybe I will reconsider, maybe an id card is not so bad after all.

V

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Re: Biometric ID card for workers of America

docmims wrote:

Not that i'm a big religious guy or anything, but can one say "mark of the beast" in this forum?

If you are refering to Iron Maidens awesome song then yessss.

Rocketgirl1 wrote:

If .gov wanted to stop illigal immigration they could today

Yep. The laws are there just enforce them.

Rickets Wrote:

For example, Libertarians have argued that roads could be maintained by private businesses.  These businesses would charge the people who use the roads, and therefore only useful safe roads would be used by individuals and individuals would only pay for what they used.  Taking it a step further, the private company would likely require your car to have an id transmitter similar to toll roads now so they could bill you.

+1

I have never understood that logic of privatizing things. Fire departments, police departments, roads, sewers, etc. So in the end you only get these things if you can afford them? Sounds like feudalism to me.

So, how is a biometric card, which increases governmental efficiency and improves their ability to enforce laws more cheaply and effectively a bad thing? If the government is abusing powers, the people must reign them in....but if they are moving toward efficiency are you really arguiing against that?  The biometric card is great.  The possible...possible....abuse of its technology is not a reason to not implement it.

I don't think this has anything to do with technology or efficiency. A little card with info? Really? How technically advanced. Its more advance to not issue illegals social security cards and drivers license. Enforce laws that make it illegal to hire illegals. Its all there it only take the will to do it. I suspect these cards would be used to 'classify' people.

If you dont trust the government, then vote out the leaders...change it.  If you are worried about their abuse of a biometric card, then doesnt it follow that they shouldnt have guns? 

Its a myth that 'new' leaders won't be as corrupt as the 'old' leaders. No change happening there. I'm also worried about my government and other governments having nuclear weapons but that doesn't mean I think my local cop shouldn't be able to defend himself.

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Re: Biometric ID card for workers of America

They can arrest me and then i will get three squares, a roof over my head and a boyfriend named Bubba...........

I dunno. It doesn't sound so bad. i suppose it really depends on how good looking Bubba is.

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Re: Biometric ID card for workers of America
rickets wrote:

I find the libertarian view of what is and isnt governmental invasion of privacy sometimes inconsistent(I say that as a guy who sort of leans libertarian) .

For example, Libertarians have argued that roads could be maintained by private businesses.  These businesses would charge the people who use the roads, and therefore only useful safe roads would be used by individuals and individuals would only pay for what they used.  Taking it a step further, the private company would likely require your car to have an id transmitter similar to toll roads now so they could bill you.  Further, to make their road safe, they would likely implement safety restrictions so people would use their road.  They would require you not speed, and they may either give discounts to cars, or require that cars are outfitted with systems that prevent drunk people from driving.  These drunk avoidance systems are already available for a reasonable cost....but the government does not dare try and infrige on booze and driving privacy!

So, in a totally free system with little or no government, suddenly you get id monitors for your car, tracked constantly, they know if youre drunk, etc.  In other words, suddenly with way less government, private companies and citizens start requiring  more knowledge of what you are doing in order to improve their service to you....in order to provide and optimize their product so that you might use it.

So, how is a biometric card, which increases governmental efficiency and improves their ability to enforce laws more cheaply and effectively a bad thing? If the government is abusing powers, the people must reign them in....but if they are moving toward efficiency are you really arguiing against that?  The biometric card is great.  The possible...possible....abuse of its technology is not a reason to not implement it.

If we are more fearful of the abuse of all technology than of technology, then we lose all ability to move forward.  We are saying others are guilty without trial.  With freedom comes responsibility.  To be free, in a world this crowded with people, you must be willing to live without fear and when walking or interacting with others you must disclose some things in order for the system to work.  You cant exist in a vacuum.

If you dont trust the government, then vote out the leaders...change it.  If you are worried about their abuse of a biometric card, then doesnt it follow that they shouldnt have guns? 

The paranoia has to stop. 

 

From these comments. I would say you are more statist leaning.

Government efficiency?  Really?  Rather oxymoronic, wouldn't you say?

Privatization is aimed at exactly that government INEFFICIENCY.  Peruse saxplayers posts regarding the complete failure of the public sector/union mindset and how that has helped to bankrupt our municipalities.

Please explain how a biometric card will allow the government to operate more efficiently.

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Re: Biometric ID card for workers of America

Sorry Rickets but you lost me at "governmental efficiency". 

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Re: Biometric ID card for workers of America

I wasnt arguing that government is efficient.  Nor was I arguing for or against the biocard.  Rather, I was saying that everyone needs to chill out.  Not everything is a freakin conspiracy for NWO and the government is not out to run every little part of our life. 

Rather, perhaps its people just like the ones one this thread that make government efficiency impossible?  There are groups of people who oppose everything the government does.  My point wasnt to say that the biocard is good or bad or that we should or shouldnt do it.  My point was that people should not assume bad things will be done with everything the government suggests.  And, I say that as a guy who wants a very small government.

Take the school system for example.  Have you ever seen what all the rules and limitations teachers have to put up with?  Its no wonder schools suck now.  Again, not defending the system or teachers or schools AT ALL - in fact I think they are run like crap and I think teachers are amazingly overpaid.  I am just saying that these days everyone is so dang vocal and passionate about the little things that the system gets thrown into gridlock and is doomed to fail.  Certainly, private biz is not as exposed to this and therefore has a much better chance at succeeding.

If bio cards or reading retnas or thumbprints or whatever helps make things more efficient, and the reasons for implementing are in good faith, then lets ease up on the prison planet everything is a conspiracy theory and relax.  I think we would all be way better off, and have much less stress, if we give up arguing over the things the government is going to attempt to lower cost and increase efficiency.  Sure they (the govt) sucks at efficiency, but dont fault them for trying.

Are you all against passports?  Birth Certs?  Are those so evil?  Comon, we need some basic documentation to have a functioning society.....and this bio card allows a cheap way to make those docs far less counterfeitable (is that a word?!!?).  You need id to vote, to drive, to have a bank account, whats wrong with making that ID more secure?

 

 

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Re: Biometric ID card for workers of America

rickets,

Whatever the original intent of these policies, history has shown governments inevitably do "bad things" (or at least things which they initially denied they would) with these abilities. 

Passports, birth certs, marriage certs, ... are all fairly recent phenomenon.  The world seemed to function for a long time without them.  It is only because we have a system of control that doles out benefits based upon race or country of origin that a government issued ID becomes necessary.  Does an ID need to be issued by the governmet to be secure?

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Re: Biometric ID card for workers of America

Goes211 - I hear ya.  Although, this isnt a theoretical argument (or at least was not intended to be).  Society is what it is right now, and given where we are this leap to a more secure card doesnt change anything substantial.  The govt is not suggesting massive change - just more secure id's

Re intent of policy or action - history also shows that people, companies, pets, governments....even doctors and nurses inevitably do bad things with their abilities.  I dont follow the point?

 

 

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Re: Biometric ID card for workers of America
rickets wrote:

Re intent of policy or action - history also shows that people, companies, pets, governments....even doctors and nurses inevitably do bad things with their abilities.  I dont follow the point?

I agree but only a government can do bad things to everybody at the same time.  if I don't think they are acting in my interest I can choose a different company, pet, doctor, or nurse.  When the government does something like this, I have little choice but to comply.  Do you follow this point?

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Re: Biometric ID card for workers of America

Well, all I will say at this point is that if anyone is in favor of a .gov biometric card then I know where they can also get a .gov swine flu shot as well. 

Seriously Rickets, your assumptions are just flying around like wild fire. 

 Why is opposition to a biocard in the defense of personal privacy suddenly constitute, in your opinion, gov conspiracy? 

"doesn't change anything substantial" is, without a doubt, debatable.  There is a world of difference between a photo ID and a biotech ID and so far the reasons given by .gov for the change don't make sense when these changes (as stated in the previous posts) can happen without a biotech card and if the .gov intended for the "greater security" they could have accomplished that a long time ago (again, as stated in the previous posts).  So, what is the motive?  Not sure myself but given the reasons put forth and the solutions that already exist along with how .gov has performed for us little guys so far in the last 2.5 yrs and beyond, I'd  have to say that, as usual, we'll probably find out after the fact and when there's little or nothing we can do about it.  So, yes Rickets, "some of us on this site" see through the smoke screen and are living in the kind of independant thought that doesn't just believe .gov without questioning the underlying intent. 

Time will tell.

BTW, Ron Paul was interviewed (on FOX news I think) today about the biotech card and once again I have to say that I whole heartedly agree with good ol' Ron.

 

 

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Re: Biometric ID card for workers of America

 

 

"I wasnt arguing that government is efficient.  Nor was I arguing for or against the biocard.  Rather, I was saying that everyone needs to chill out.  Not everything is a freakin conspiracy for NWO and the government is not out to run every little part of our life. "

I am very chilled right now and by random observation of this particular federal government I would have to inform you that yes indeed the government is not only out to run every little part of our lives I would posit they already do.

As proof of this I would offer up not only the IRS tax code but every bit of federal regulation. I would also offer up that somewhere in a recent post DRKRBYLUV  listed all the government agencies he would like to see gone.

Now I have not even gotten to state and local laws. Every time those people we supposedly elect get together we end up with less freedom. If you do not get that one salient FACT ........... I GIVE UP

V

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Re: Biometric ID card for workers of America

If bio cards or reading retnas or thumbprints or whatever helps make things more efficient, and the reasons for implementing are in good faith, then lets ease up on the prison planet everything is a conspiracy theory and relax.  I think we would all be way better off, and have much less stress, if we give up arguing over the things the government is going to attempt to lower cost and increase efficiency.  Sure they (the govt) sucks at efficiency, but dont fault them for trying.

Hmm, just a few more laws and things the government can do, honest, they won't abuse the power or the data or..... Hmm.  Heard that too many  times.  It's a power grab.

Are you all against passports?  Birth Certs?  Are those so evil?  Comon, we need some basic documentation to have a functioning society.....and this bio card allows a cheap way to make those docs far less counterfeitable (is that a word?!!?).  You need id to vote, to drive, to have a bank account, whats wrong with making that ID more secure?

Why do we need these things?  I would argue to have a function society we don't need any of them.  The only reason you have to have most of these is for government to track you, force you to pay taxes, and redistribute wealth to you from somone else or redistribute your wealth to others.  So no, I don't think government should be involved in any of these things.  

So when they say, we really need everyone to have a chip (or perhaps a tattoo) are you going to comply?

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Re: Biometric ID card for workers of America

 

We already got a Drivers License, one more step to 1984

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Re: Biometric ID card for workers of America
rickets wrote:

Goes211 - I hear ya.  Although, this isnt a theoretical argument (or at least was not intended to be).  Society is what it is right now, and given where we are this leap to a more secure card doesnt change anything substantial.  The govt is not suggesting massive change - just more secure id's

Re intent of policy or action - history also shows that people, companies, pets, governments....even doctors and nurses inevitably do bad things with their abilities.  I dont follow the point?

 

 

"It is what it is" is thought-terminating drivel rickets. Just exactly what the hell does that mean? As far as paranoia, when government engages in fabian socialism, pandemic disinformation, lying, and secrecy from the people it's supposed to serve, and instead turns to acting like a master of the people that it can jail, then it's not at all paranoia to question every single damned thing it does. 

It's a patriotic duty and obligation. 

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Re: Biometric ID card for workers of America

Putting opinions on the intent or efficiency of government aside for a second, the proposal's costs are likely to exceed any potential savings.  Granted that is an assumption, but given that the program would involve every employer in the country I find it hard to see how it could NOT be huge in scope and cost.  And it would also be difficult to tell HOW MUCH was really saved as a result of the program (even now most estimates of how much working illegals 'cost' in terms of government services used vary greatly).  So limited benefit, high cost, and limited ability to measure effectiveness of the program seem to point to it being a bad idea. 

As for my own opinion on the government, I cannot advocate anything that centralizes power any further than already exists so that gives me another reason to oppose the id card.  I recognize the benefits of having some limited degree of government involvement and regulation, but IMO its important that power and authority isn't overly concentrated in any one place.  The federal government (again just my opinion) already has entirely too much power and authority on our daily lives, so I don't support anything that will maintain or increase that concentration of power.  To be honest, the whole biometric ID card scheme seems like a solution looking for a problem.  I can't prove it, but the most fitting explanation is that increased control is the primary purpose of such a program.  There may not be nefarious motives behind the desire for control (perhaps they really are trying to do 'good'), but there doesn't need to be for me to oppose it.  Too much power in the hands of idiots can be just as damaging as too much power in sinister hands. Or to put it another way, it's like the difference between JO's hypothetical good-looking Bubba or the stereotypical mean-looking one... sharing a cell with either leads to the same painful end result  Wink

- Nickbert

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Re: Biometric ID card for workers of America

I also thought of one more thing.  How are they going to issue the cards?  Who gets one?  How do you know who is a citizen?  How is it any different than a drivers license or birth certificate now?  I guess now if you have a fake birth ceritificate you will get a nice new non-fake government id card, or perhaps they are going to require DNA testing and trace your ancestry as well?

When there are no jobs, no government handouts, then the illegal immigration problem will disappear.   I think we will be there soon if we continue to spend out of control.  I wonder how big an illegal immigration problem Mexico and Canada will have with yankees sneaking across the borders. :-)

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Re: Biometric ID card for workers of America

That was hysterical rhare, in a cry at night sort of way.

 

(well done ! Smile)

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