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Davos
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Over the past year I've been studying the corporate structure's predisposition towards psychopathy.  I know that sounds "over the top" but isn't blowing up pension funds, towns, cities and even entire countries with financial weapons of mass destruction "over the top"?

The movie The Corporation actully put our soulless citizens (corporations) on the couch and ran the WHO psychopathy checklist on them.

Then another documentary came out, "I Am Fishead", at the 22:40 point the hunt inside Fortune 100 companies for psychopaths begins.

Minutes later there is one of those "jump out in your face" blurbs, that if you don't do the math, you miss.  To digress: the general populous has a 1% psychopath sub-populous.  And women are going to love this, 1/2% of female and 1.5% of males.  Back to the movie.  Dr. Hare says they studied 203 executives.  Blah, blah, blah, "8 or 9 had very high scores."

Woow!!!  Stomp on the brakes, toss those turbines in reverse, stop right there and "Do the math!"  

4.5% ?!?!  And with high levels !?!?!  What these doctors call "toxins"???

That got me on Skype with Dr. Hares's postdoctoral researcher.  The talk was as good as the movie (probably because I kept my fat mouth zipped shut and let him do ALL the talking!)

Link to audio.

As my favorite author Kurt Vonnegut (who, to use his very words, "now lives in Heavan") used to say, "Someone should look into this."

---And so I am.

Scibb notes link for those who are in a rush and want to skim the really juicy points. 

Movie "The Corporation" can be viewed on that link.

Movie "I am Fishead" (it is the second movie embedded on the page and you can tune in at the 22:40 point on the slider) can be viewed at Jesse's Cafe' here is the link.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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jumblies
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 I saw both those movies

 I saw both those movies before and read some papers about this too. Thought it was pretty interesting and there are also people I've encountered (socially and at work) whom I would strongly consider psychopathic (one chap in particular). But I wonder if this is a new thing or that we're recognising it more as the internet makes it easier to gather and share information. Also, to me it seems people change jobs more frequently and if that is true then does this make it easier for these personality types to hide? And at the same time make those around them not want to rock the boat as they're not going to be there much more than a couple of years?

No doubt there will be a "psychos are people too" campaign where they assert their human rights and protest discrimination. Joking aside, if there are so many of these types of people, what are the ethics of dealing with them?

 

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Wendy S. Delmater
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Bates Motel with an MBA

God yes, that's how it seems to work. Thank you for validating a theory I;ve held close to my vest for most of my life, that many upper-management types are certifiably nuts. So a large proportion of them are missing something, eh? Thought so.

Example story from real life:

My brother works for a software company, directly for the CFO as a "Solutions Architect." When he is not crafting solutions to their clients' problems, one of his duties is to keep an eye on the sales people to see that they do not "give away the farm" and charge less than the company needed to make a profit. There was one psychopathic salesman, let's call him "Norman Bates" who was so pushy with making deals that woudl hurt the company that my brother literally could not let him get out of his sight for over two years.

"Norman Bates" could care less if the company went bankrupt: as long as he got his commission, he was happy and if the company failed he'd just jump to another one. My brother was unable to take a vacation for two-and-a-half years because the minute he turned his back, "Bates" would try to screw the company over for his own personal profit. The guy had NO conscience. None. And the company put up with the salesman's outlandish behavior up to and including paying off someone he assaulted because the dude was raking in a lot of money. He eventually did some things that were so antisocial he as asked to leave. "Bates" was a psychopath, pure and simple, with amazing communication skills and innovations but absolutely no empathy and a frightening degree of narcissism. And the company allowed him a position of a influence for far too long because he was manipulating upper management while bringing in money. That's why I wonder if anyone will stop their rise to the top: psychopaths can bring in money. When will we learn that they eventually cost far more than they seem to bring in?

 

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safewrite wrote: When will
safewrite wrote:

When will we learn that they eventually cost far more than they seem to bring in?

Well said, SF...

 

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ao
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sociopaths are everywhere at the top

Chris Duane, in his Sons of Liberty Academy series, has a whole module on on the sociopathic personality and how sociopaths gravitate to positions in both the public and the private sector where they hold the reins of power.

Ask yourself, for example, why would any sane individual aspire to be POTUS.  Basically, I don't want anyone who wants to be president to be president.  I want a reluctant president like a George Washington.

 

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By the way...

 ...a belated welcome back, Davos.  You and DIAP and Erik T -- great to see some Olde-Tyme Stalwarts back in the saddle.  Now, if we could just lure Machinehead outta retirement...

Viva -- Sager

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Davos
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safewrite wrote:God yes,
safewrite wrote:

God yes, that's how it seems to work. Thank you for validating a theory I;ve held close to my vest for most of my life, that many upper-management types are certifiably nuts. So a large proportion of them are missing something, eh? Thought so.

Example story from real life:

My brother works for a software company, directly for the CFO as a "Solutions Architect." When he is not crafting solutions to their clients' problems, one of his duties is to keep an eye on the sales people to see that they do not "give away the farm" and charge less than the company needed to make a profit. There was one psychopathic salesman, let's call him "Norman Bates" who was so pushy with making deals that woudl hurt the company that my brother literally could not let him get out of his sight for over two years.

"Norman Bates" could care less if the company went bankrupt: as long as he got his commission, he was happy and if the company failed he'd just jump to another one. My brother was unable to take a vacation for two-and-a-half years because the minute he turned his back, "Bates" would try to screw the company over for his own personal profit. The guy had NO conscience. None. And the company put up with the salesman's outlandish behavior up to and including paying off someone he assaulted because the dude was raking in a lot of money. He eventually did some things that were so antisocial he as asked to leave. "Bates" was a psychopath, pure and simple, with amazing communication skills and innovations but absolutely no empathy and a frightening degree of narcissism. And the company allowed him a position of a influence for far too long because he was manipulating upper management while bringing in money. That's why I wonder if anyone will stop their rise to the top: psychopaths can bring in money. When will we learn that they eventually cost far more than they seem to bring in?

 

 

Hi SafeWrite:  I still have to PM you back.  I talked to my wife about your expertise and what you explained.  The research has been time consuming. 

I posted this on my blog, but here is a direct link to his site.  Your brother can submit the Bates story to the corporate psychopathy researchers.  People can rate their bosses personalities and their coworkers.  Since I released the podcast he's gotten quite a bit of traffic, so all this should help us all.

A few observations I made from the notes I posted on that podcast with Dr. Jones that have a direct bearing on your interesting story of what your brother had to deal with:

2:15 Individuals who scored high in psychopathy were rated as much more effective in their communication skills and their creativity, so these individuals that , we considered toxic people both in society and corporations, were actually evaluated higher than others in their communications skills and creativity.  Which I find to be kind of a scary thing. [in other words, in their yearly, quarterly, bi-yearly reviews these "people" scored higher than their collegues did.]

2:50 Psychopathy is measured by  the psychopathy checklist which breaks into four different aspects.

3:00 Aspect 1.)  Being a manipulative person or a liar.

3:05 Aspect 2.) Callous, kind of a lack of empathy towards others.

3:08 Aspect 3.) Impulsivity, or more specifically a lack of impulse control.

3:15 Aspect 4.) Antisocial behavior, some kind of breaking rules, whether it be social rules or legal rules.

14:00 Just scratching the surface.  Everything before has been leadership and fostering cooperative work environments.

 

14:19 We’re only now beginning to realize how these clinical and personality research can really form kind of derailing type of behaviors that we see in corporations.  Now never has it been more critical at this juncture.  Forty-three percent of all corporations report some major fraud at some point in the past few years.

 

14:50 There research reports estimating anywhere between $160,000,000,000.00 to $600,000,000,000.00 annually are pumped out of our economy as the result of corporate fraud.  People are loosing their livelihood essentially because of these individuals.

 

15:09 It’s amazing and baffling to me that we are almost starting now to ask these questions.

 

ewilkerson's picture
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I grew up with one as a

I grew up with one as a father.  He was, also, a narcissist  .  I believe the two run hand in hand a lot of times.  Everything is all about them and what they want no matter what it takes to get it.  No laws apply to them, and they feel they can treat others any way they want.

 

Ernest

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And Morpheus too!
SagerXX wrote:

 ...a belated welcome back, Davos.  You and DIAP and Erik T -- great to see some Olde-Tyme Stalwarts back in the saddle.  Now, if we could just lure Machinehead outta retirement...

Viva -- Sager

Morpheus showed up briefly a while back and then disappeared again. Illness if I recall. His insight was always a valuable contribution. I wonder if they're on a tropical beach somewhere sippin' fruity drinks  whilst laughin' at us wondering about them.

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Davos
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 Thanks!!!! Dr. Chris P. ,

 Thanks!!!!

Dr. Chris P. , Machinehead, 2 Beers Steve, and I had dinner with Student of Jefferson but he sounds busy now.

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Davos
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ewilkerson wrote: I grew up
ewilkerson wrote:

I grew up with one as a father.  He was, also, a narcissist  .  I believe the two run hand in hand a lot of times.  Everything is all about them and what they want no matter what it takes to get it.  No laws apply to them, and they feel they can treat others any way they want.

 

Ernest

  • 5:50 There is actually a cluster of traits that we refer to as, “The Dark Triad of Personality” called Machiavellianism, Psychopathy & Narcissism. 
  • 6:00 Overlap, but are distinct their unique aspects.
  • 6:10 Machiavellian’s are liars and callous but they also have a lot of long-term planning.
  • 6:30 The narcissist is the spokesperson
  • 6:37 The henchmen are the frontment, aggressively climbing his way, that is really the psychopath.
  • 6:50 When you get these 3 together in an organization it is a particularly toxic outcome because they feed off each other’s unethical behavior.
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ewilkerson
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Davos wrote 5:50 There is

Davos wrote

5:50 There is actually a cluster of traits that we refer to as, “The Dark Triad of Personality” called Machiavellianism, Psychopathy & Narcissism.

You hit my father dead on..LOL.  I can see how these are the people at the top of Wall Street.  All that matters is themselves.  They don't care how they get there either.  My father will lie under oath.  I've seen it.  It's too bad they are going to bring down the system.

Ernest

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SteveW
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Psychopaths

I think the easiest way to understand this personality type is that their fundamental biological distinction is a total lack of empathy. Consequently they are outsiders, not understanding normal human emotions but learning to simulate them. From this study they learn from experience how to push emotional buttons and manipulate people. In this way they develop "excellent communication skills". Totally lacking and incapable of concern for others they necessarily are narcissistic.

Safewrite, the salesman you talk about is clear example. I knew of an example in an academic setting who created his own personal empire. The easiest way to deal with these people is to keep clear of them. For society they used to be held in check by the rule of law that they now control and are subverting.

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land2341
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empathy and enlightened self interest

 Clearly Ayn falls into this category and all of her acolytes have elevated narcisism and an utter lack of empthy into an art form.

Anyone who has taken a business class in the last 30 years has been taught to address the purported bottom line over the human lives every time.  

But, I LOVE safewrite's take on realizing that they cost mroe than they bring in......    Sadly, no one will agree to notice this in a Randian world of quarterly profit statements which reward short term profit over long term investment.  

Our business ethos now is kill the goose, extract what eggs it has, blame the body on the poor people or the government, and walk.

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Ken C
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Strategic Planning

I am reminded of a situation in my previous employment in sales (years ago) . I worked for a large computer company and we had our end of year tribal dance where all of the sales people get together to be rewarded for having a great year.

After the sales awards we had the requisite presentation by a paid consultant on "strategic planning" and thinking for the long term. When he was finally done the VP of sales got up to bring the sales meeting to closure. He repeated the "strategic planning" message and offered his own motivational speech by pointing out the while we were doing our "strategic planning business" if we did not make our quarterly numbers he would get people in here that would.

So get out there and think for the long term but you will be fired if you if miss your quarterly numbers.

Ha Ha Ha - Damn I feel so motivated.

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