Aside from Gold & Silver, what other hard assets/currency substitute would be best to accumulate?

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JuanGalt's picture
JuanGalt
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Aside from Gold & Silver, what other hard assets/currency substitute would be best to accumulate?

PRECONDITIONS:

It must maintain or appreciate in value over time, be in high demand/need by many people in the future, have bartering power, be easy to liquidate if and when it is time to do so and worst case have personal utility.

Some people have suggested ammunition as another great currency/money substitute. Lead will become more valuable in the coming times and the way things are going more and more people will seek to prepare protect themselves, their loved ones and their assets from any multitude of threats thus consequently seeking accumulate ammo reserves.

For the sake of this discussion I'm ruling out any paper assets and any type of real estate. The suggestions should be hard assets that are easy to move, sell and/or exchange/barter with.

Would appreciate any solid and well-reasoned ideas as compliments to and diversification from PMs. Thanks.

JG

 

patrickhenry's picture
patrickhenry
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(No subject)

JuanGalt's picture
JuanGalt
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You're probably trying to be funny but...

Certain types of vehicles, especially those filling practical and productive needs, would not be a bad idea as long as you feel you have a plan for maintenance, parts and fuel in times where those may be much more expensive or harder to source.

I can think of a few type of all-purpose or mission specific vehicles but I was thinking something that was easier to store and sell/exchange when the time arises.

ao's picture
ao
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patrickhenry
patrickhenry wrote:

Nice.  Front end gets too light at high speed though for my taste.  I'll take one of these.

 

NZSailor's picture
NZSailor
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Good question.... copper ingots?

This is a question I've been running through my mind quite a bit.  I worry that being too heavy in PM's could be counterproductive as it is too easy for TPTB to change the rules when the going gets tough. 

We've done a lot of the sort of infrastructural stuff talked about on CM like solar electric and solar hot water, insulating, water supply, glass house, gardens etc.  I'm also going to spend a bit on replacing the worst of the fencing on the farm this summer to lower the future maintenance requirements and make it more productive but I want to reserve some liquidity as I don't want to get asset rich and cash poor in a crisis.

I've often wondered about buying copper as it is the most common and usefull of the industrial metals.  I would think it would be sort of "under the radar" as a seizable asset by TPTB and while as volitle as anything else right now I think having a pile of it quietly packed away in the back of the shed would be a great gift for my kids in 20 years.  I haven't found a way to purchase it however... there are some specialty, highly polished "collectable" bars online at outragous prices but I'm thinking instead about  industrial ingots that can be sold back on the international market at some future time.  It seems to me that LME has the market sewn up with a paper trading system where they take a cut of the top, charge you to hold it (with the same questions of whether you actually own physical), and little chance of being able to take physical possession.

Does anyone know of a way to physically buy copper at prices close to the international going rate?

And of course there's the part of me that says the Corvette looks a lot more fun than a pile of copper!

Chip

osb272646's picture
osb272646
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My vote --

Even though you ruled out real estate, I'm looking for a woodlot.  Close by.

 

 

JuanGalt's picture
JuanGalt
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Hey NZ Sailor, that's why I asked, thinking the same thing...

TPTB will likely try to tax severely , confiscate, restrict or bar PMs in one way or another. They can easily manipulate the paper asset PM prices (mining stocks, ETFs, etc...), track and nationalize private box stores. I think going "all in" on PMs can be quite risky if you wait to liquidate too late.

Good prep work on farm and solid thoughts on liquidity as long as the liquidity is strategically planned and safely secured.

Copper ingots may not be a bad idea but not sure how high on the list that would be.

There's a whole slew of ideas for good stores that also act as great bartering products and inflation hedges. Making the home sustainable and secure is a great start. Addressing any potential deferred maintenance issues now is a good idea.

Regarding ranches or farms, I wonder about those near federal lands, infrastructure or water and if the Feds could pull eminent domain shenanigans. Whatever they'd pay for the cost of the land and general improvements would nowhere cover the time, effort and cost of strategically locating, preparing and securing that land.

I have good inside info from a very sharp and well-respected financial advisor and former gov't insider that an over reliance on PMs as your primary liquidity/money store may be quite risky if you hold onto to it too long. The Feds have plans to deal with that when the time comes. 

History provides several lessons and examples of what the gov't could do and in fact aspects of it are already taking place internationally and around parts of the US. 

Curious to see what others propose. I may chip in a couple more thoughts on this later in the thread. Thanks for posting.

JG

 

JuanGalt's picture
JuanGalt
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osb272646, of course real estate is part of the equation...

but I was thinking of something easy to sell or exchange, at worst use in the future.

Real Estate that possesses some type of valuable resource works though because the resource can be sold and used. Wood lots may not be bad idea, just like farmland, land with access to fresh water or any land with some other worthwhile resource.

I'm not talking about city or suburban houses. The resources on the land is what will be worth something anc can be developed and sold. 

NZSailor's picture
NZSailor
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How far do you take it...?

Lots of different options too depending on how far down you think things will sink...  here are some ideas in approximate decending socital order:

  • PM's- liquid and tradable with lower counterparty risk in a world running well
  • Cash- mix of curencies for an extended bank holiday but expectation of return to normal
  • Junk silver/jewelry- for barter in a semi functioning society where the currency isn't trusted
  • Small liquor bottles/cigarettes/bullets (22LR?)- for barter in a lower functioning society
  • Seeds/food- valuable if things get worse
  • Shovels/axes/saws/knives- the basic hand tools of survival

Another way to think about it:

  • Fixed assets-I think productive gardens/land/woodlots are very valuable but not so mobile if you have to leave where you are.
  • Mobile assets- Some of the items above are easily mobile but can be taken off you by force so are only valuable as long as you can remain in ownership of them
  • Skill assets- Gardening skills, medical skills, self defense skills. Probably the most important assets but last only as long as you do unless you can teach others/loved ones.

At the end of the day it is probably diversification and flexibility that will get you through... just some random thoughts...

Chip

gonzy's picture
gonzy
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copper as an investment

I would think that the best way to own copper would be u.s. issued nickels. They will never fall below face value and the copper content would likely appreciate in a high inflation scenario. Seems like a can't lose scenario to me. A while back the copper content equaled 6 cents probably lower now with the fall in copper. 

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A. M.
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Obviously Biased

I hate to say this, because I think it'll be cliche coming from me, but...
Owning Arms and ammunition has been a multi-faceted gain for me.
Not only do I have a tool that's useful for a variety of different scenarios (hunting and Self/Community Defense), but they're an asset that's benefits can't easily be replicated. To add to that, the value of arms has been on a steady incline since the 1980's.

Ammunition, likewise, has increased in both production and marketing costs, and even from a few years ago, (and it's settled some now) it was easy to pick up a case of ammunition for $120. Now, the same case is up ~$120, or 100% (in the case of 5.56mm).

The utility of arms/ammunition hasn't increased, and the quantity available sure isn't in jeopardy, so I think what we're seeing is a pure appreciation. While I don't care much for collectibles (which have gained the most), the value of even simple surplus rifles (the SKS comes to mind) have risen steadily from $150 back in 2000 to $275+ current.

At any rate, I completely agree with NZSailor on the notion of having tools, seeds and so forth - but many of those things I wouldn't be likely to part with. A better investment than ammo might be the supplies to reload and produce your own.

Just some thoughts, and again, obviously biased.
Cheers,

Aaron

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JuanGalt
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NZ Sailor follow-up...

I like and have heard of the junk silver idea.

Regardless of whether one drinks or smokes, many others do and are addicts. They will pay a premium for yours if they have a hard time getting their own. That's a worst case scenario and if you have no personal use for it it's less attractive as it offers no worst case personal utility.

Bullets, as I mentioned previously and as Alpha Mike mentions below make sense for a host of reasons.

Yes, non-GMO seeds and food becomes very valuable in extreme conditions.

***Shovels, Axes, Saws, Knives, etc... are a very good call.

Productive land is a given, if the resources on the land can cultivated, extracted and sold then it's a plus, plus. Lots of people of investing in cheap positive cash flow houses and although not a bad investment I think some type of productive land that can be turned into a business venture is a better bet, though that would requre more work and sophistication to operate and positively produce.

Agree, high value skill assets are priceless as one would not only need them for personal safety and sustainability  but others would pay for them in a pinch. You names 3 of the most vital. Communications and some type of mechanical repair may also be considered.

Totally agree on last point, much of this needs to operate under the understanding that liquidity, diversification and flexibility are key.

Since times are so uncertain, time-frames impossible to nail down and the reactions of the gov't and corrupt elite can vary both in application and degree much of your planning and contingencies need to remain somewhat fluid.

JG

JuanGalt's picture
JuanGalt
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RE: Gonzy, copper and nickels...

Good cal Gonzy. I have heard the same thing about nickels.

According to www.Coinflation.com, the 1946-2008 Nickel (with a 5 cent face value) had a base metal value of $0.0733 in February, 2011. That was 146.7% of its face value. Because of the global recession and the fact that both nickel and copper are primarily industrial metals, the melt value of a nickel declined to just $0.0516 in October, 2011. It woudl be reasonable to venture to guess that as inflation resumes--most likely in in early-to-mid-2012 (QE 3 & more global/ECB printing)--the base metal value of nickels will rise substantially, regardless of the weakness in the industrial economy.

Not a bad call.

Diversify, maintain as much liquidity, mobility and flexibility as possible and learn to protect and safely secure what you have.

JG

PastTense's picture
PastTense
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You can buy a copper futures

You can buy a copper futures contract on Comex and then take physical delivery. Unfortunately the contract size is 25,000 pounds. Have you listened to this?

http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/metals/delivery-process-of-copper-future...

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