Are Guns The Canary In The Coalmine?

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Morpheus's picture
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Are Guns The Canary In The Coalmine?

Quick question to ponder and chew on.

In a complete meltdown deeply unfolded, what is the canary in the coalmine that would clearly indicate to the citizen that the government is hell bent on total control of a bad situation, constitution be damned? 

I think it'll be a nationwide gun sweep to disarm the public. And I also think that it'll be campaigned to be synergistic to the misery and suffering of the times to the point where people will be begging for it. 

So. If I may ask....

Do you think a nationwide disarming would be the indicator that the government has lost all respect and deference to the public? If not then what would be the indicator of a massive societal crackdown in light of economic unrest? 

And...

What would you (honestly) do with your firearms? 

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Re: Are Guns The Canary In The Coalmine?
MGhandi wrote:

Quick question to ponder and chew on.

In a complete meltdown deeply unfolded, what is the canary in the coalmine that would clearly indicate to the citizen that the government is hell bent on total control of a bad situation, constitution be damned? 

I think it'll be a nationwide gun sweep to disarm the public. And I also think that it'll be campaigned to be synergistic to the misery and suffering of the times to the point where people will be begging for it. 

So. If I may ask....

Do you think a nationwide disarming would be the indicator that the government has lost all respect and deference to the public? If not then what would be the indicator of a massive societal crackdown in light of economic unrest? 

And...

No-- not necessarily true; at least I don't think it is a good indicator.  The biggest indicator of a massive societal crackdown would be the restriction of communication methods (internet & etc.)

MGhandi wrote:

 What would you (honestly) do with your firearms? 

I would fire them.

BTW; you sound like a spy asking questions like these. ;-)

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Re: Are Guns The Canary In The Coalmine?

Ghandi, in my view government has already lost all respect for the public, so that's in the past.  I think a gun sweep is most certainly the indicator that tyranny is coming.  But I'm not sure how they could pull it off.  They could use a disaster like Katrina to pull it off in New Orleans, or constant gang violence in Chicago, but they can't just do it outside big cities during normal life.  I think they'll leverage any disaster, or even use false flag disasters, to do the sweeps.  The Police State videos give a sense for what might be coming (just query them on video.google.com).  But I think they're going to think twice about it given the 200 million private firearms in the US.  It will be serious gut check time.  

I still haven't decided if I'll still be in the US as I see the type of chaos on the horizon that could trigger the army's plan for martial law (published in the recent US Army War College report). 

If more states keep pushing the states rights legislation and explicitly putting their law enforcement resources at odds with the feds, then we might just be able to avoid this mad max scenario.  But if states give-in, there's probably not much individuals will be able to do since we never really developed an effective constitutional militia like they have in Switzerland. Our dominant culture is so anti-gun that I don't see a majority of people participating in the resistance...whereas they totally would in Switz because, despite the elitists that live there, the common citizens are quite pro-gun, pro-marksmanship training, pro-cooperation to fight oppression. 

 

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Re: Are Guns The Canary In The Coalmine?

and yes you do sound like undercover fbi asking that last question...why I didn't answer it.  

no that's not conspiracy folks...it's well known that government types join sites to stir discussion and gain intel.  so do corporations on the sites that matter to them.  

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Re: Are Guns The Canary In The Coalmine?

Ohh God, I sound like a spook doing a survery on domestic terr'ism? LOL Sorry guys. I'm not in the TIPS program, honest.

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Re: Are Guns The Canary In The Coalmine?

Ohh God, I sound like a spook doing a survery on domestic terr'ism? LOL Sorry guys. I'm not in the TIPS program, honest.

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Re: Are Guns The Canary In The Coalmine?

The Agent Provacatuer card need not be played.

Over the years, I've had opportunity to shoot with and talk with several FBI agents, and by in large, we're talking upstanding, intelligent and committed individuals. They aren't thugs looking to oppress.

Granted, I would not say the same about the BATFE.
Hopefully, they will NOT get stimulus money. hehe.

That said, this questions isn't really even "sensitive" - for a couple reasons:

1. I don't think the government is foolish enough to try and disarm the people forcefully; Ergo, door to door collection of registered weapons.
Won't happen.
In addition to being a logistical nightmare, it's dangerous and unconstitutional. There are "true believers" out there who let politicians influence their actions, but I think police and .gov agents would get real tired of this idea, real quick. After the first few shots fired in anger.
Last I heard there were about 6000 federal agents. There are 355 million Americans, and about 2 million guns. If you figure it, that works out to be about 177,000 armed citizens at minimum. If 10% of them just said "no", what could any do, really?

2. It's not openly advocating violence, nor is the "proposition" of violence illegal in this case.
Oppressive forces have always tried to scare people out of openly saying that "If you steal out liberty, we'll kill you."

When people get scared, and hushed, it's easier for those forces to hone in, and destroy them.
When a population openly declares that the government is restricted by the same laws as the citizens, and it will be held criminally accountable for transgressions thereof, it creates an overwhelming opposition for government to surmount if it wishes to enforce unconstitutional laws - see point 1.
There are a lot more of us.

All that said, I think the very best evidence that the government has lost all respect for the people is the weekly, multi-billion dollar bailouts using our tax money.

The mis-representation of our representitives and congress, the transgression of our constitutional freedoms, starting with the first and extending at least through the tenth (minus the quartering act, so far...) and their "ad hoc" style of enforcement that victimizes citizens with "something to lose" while ignoring the meth addicts, drug lords, radical Islamics who cut their wives heads off and other miscreants, out of tenderness for their feelings, and a longing to "rehabilitate"...

 ...Holy run on sentance batman.

Sorry for the rant.
Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: Are Guns The Canary In The Coalmine?

Aaron. Not to quibble but some of your numbers are off. There are, at best estimates approximately 80 million gun owners comprised of 45% of all households. And the # of guns in the US has been estimated to be between 240-290 million.

 

Ghandi here owns a few himself. Go figure. LOL

 

Now if I could just spell my name right. BTW. It's freaky that we have to consider that I am somehow a gov't rat. Can't blame the folks here now that I think about it. It's a sad state of affairs that we the people have come to that. 

 

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Re: Are Guns The Canary In The Coalmine?

Aaron,

I always appreciate your wise and thoughtful commentary.  A little aside getting back to another gun thread.  I'm looking for a 7.62 mm./.308 semi-automatic tactical rifle or carbine.  I'm considering a DPMS LR-308 AP4.  Seems to be reliable, easy to handle, and very accurate from the little I can read about it but can't find much about real world experience of its use.  Any thoughts on this particular weapon?  I'm 6'2" 220 lbs. and don't mind a heavier weapon but I want something that has longer range capabilities yet is maneuverable in closer quarters.  Basically, I'm looking for a SHTF weapon with more punch than a 5.56 mm/.223 (I already have a Bushmaster AR-15) that has tactical capability but can double as a deer rifle.  I'm suitably equipped with handguns, shotguns, and .22 rifle as well as a high velocity .22 pellet rifle (my favorite for small game hunting and pest control).  Thanks for any help.

Brian

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Re: Are Guns The Canary In The Coalmine?

 

Canary-in-the-coal mine events:

1) Government mails checks home to everyone to "stimulate" the economy, a.k.a, the economic equivalent of crack cocaine.

2) Government bails out banks and auto companies.

3) Government dissolves contract law by forcing banks to change loan terms.

4) Government creates massive amounts of debt to "stimulate" the economy.

 

Now, if anyone sees or hears anything about any plans to do any of the above, please do be kind enough to let us know!

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Re: Are Guns The Canary In The Coalmine?

Gandhi,

Thanks for the spot! I was thinking specifically of "black rifles", or semi-automatics.
I tend to think in those terms.

Brian,

The AR10 series is definately an acceptable weapon.
My only hangup with them is/was the overall cost, and cost of magazines. The Selous scouts in Rhodesia (as it was) put a hurtin' on the Communist guerillas with the Armalite AR10, it served admirably in those conditions, and I think it'd be a perfectly acceptable choice. Especially if you're familiar already with the AR series. Same manual of arms.

I've spent most of my .308 time with the FN-FAL, and I like them a lot - however, the "good" ones are getting more expensive and harder to find. Most of the .308 battle rifles are in the same "price range" for a quality rifle ($1200-1500, last I saw) so handle a few of them and price magazines.

Thanks for the kind words,

Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: Are Guns The Canary In The Coalmine?

I myself do not see a realistic organized resistance. There is simply no way that it can be accomplished given the surveillance that we have allowed to be thrust upon us. So, and call me a skeptic, a agent provacatuer, whatever, but without organizational structure it doesn't matter if 20 million armed citizens stood up. They'd be taken apart piecemeal with the active and complicit participation of the soccer moms and soccer dads.

Remember folks, to many people, the government STILL is their voice of reason, law, order, and truth. Don't underestimate the power of broad-based Jedi Mind Tricks, aka, mass media to influence public behavior. You'd be painted as ultra-dangerous, delusional, paranoid right-wing terrorists that kill brave, honorable defenders of freedom. And you cook little children in cauldrons and gobble them up. I can see it on CNN now. 

Maybe I need to change my name to Sun Tzu. LOL

No. I am not advocating anything requiring violence. But I do believe that the Bill of Rights were assembled in relative order of importance by the founders. And if you notice the cornerstone for a free society resides in the 1st two, which have been so thoroughly under assault by all levels of governement that to go for a gun grab to disarm the populace would be a psychological blow too powerful to recover from. 

I do not think that there would be mass resistance. I think at gut-check time most Americans would roll over, again. Katrina clearly demonstrated that. All sizzle, no steak. It's a psychological comfort, that's all. Take away the defense against tyranny and you could walk the public into extermination camps if you so desired. History plays out like a broken record. 

I do not think that the government would hesitate to use "crisis", "national emergency" or whatever to cry "special circumstances" and again ignore the constitution. I think the government considers the constitution to be federal enemy #1 and the thinking public to be federal enemy #2. 

I do think that the government has been, and will continue to be wildly successful at disassembling the Bill of Rights. They hate it. They do. It's an impediment to control and these folks "mean well" so that's a good enough reason under "special circumstances" to toss it aside. 

Too many Americans think breathing and eating are more important than liberty. A lot of talk and hot air but no actions. Honestly, I hate to sound like a jerk, but I think less than 5% of you would actually defend the constitution if the need came for it. Sorry. Not trying to pick a fight. 

 

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Re: Are Guns The Canary In The Coalmine?

I can also envision US troops, Canadian, and Mexican troops engaging in hostilities with US citizens should we become restless over the present state of affairs.

There is precedent for National Guard shooting civilians. 

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Re: Are Guns The Canary In The Coalmine?
Aaron Moyer wrote:

When people get scared, and hushed, it's easier for those forces to hone in, and destroy them. When a population openly declares that the government is restricted by the same laws as the citizens, and it will be held criminally accountable for transgressions thereof, it creates an overwhelming opposition for government to surmount if it wishes to enforce unconstitutional laws - see point 1.
There are a lot more of us.

Thank you, Aaron. Well said. I wish more people in our society had the courage to stand by their principles.

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Re: Are Guns The Canary In The Coalmine?

Perhaps attempts made by governments to make it difficult or impossible for citizens to acquire guns is a canary.

 Witness Illinois. They have proposed making it mandatory for a gun owner to carry $1 million in liability insurance 'specifically covering any damages resulting from negligent or willful acts involving the use of such firearm while it is owned by such a person"

 The owner would be responsible for any damage if the gun is stolen up until the time that the theft is reported to the police of the owner's local jurisdiction.

The government would pull the permits of anybody who doesn't obtain this insurance.

 So...what insurance company would write this kind of policy? If any did, how many gun owners would be able to afford it? 

 

Keep an eye on this one, folks! 

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Re: Are Guns The Canary In The Coalmine?

Pat,

Quote:

Now, if anyone sees or hears anything about any plans to do any of the above, please do be kind enough to let us know!

*whistle* See no evil?

Gandhi,

You raise some some very valid points... My only hope is that Katrina wasn't an accurate cross-section of "American" society... I'm "holding hope" that things would have gone differently in a city less overwhelmed by crime, corruption and lack of civics. That's probably wishful thinking.

Furthermore, I think that if we start seeing intervention against private arms holders in rural areas - like Ruby Ridge events - we're going to find out that communities are somewhat closer. Especially as the financial situation gets worse.

I know a lot of police in general had some pretty mixed feelings during the 1994 Assault Weapons ban - I worked in a gun shop during that era, and I heard comments frequently about how they wouldn't enforce those laws. I hope, again, that dangerous concept - that this mentality would preveil if federal agents decided they should start moving in on small town gun owners. Between the community element, and the LE who are "pro-constitution" (keep in mind a lot of vets are going into the LE world, and are strong believers in the constitution) maybe we'll see different results.

I think the FBI learned from their debacle there. It was bad juju for everyone involved, and it was an "egg on face" event, even with all the propaganda surrounding it. Catch phrases like "white supremcists", "kiddie porn" and "polygamists" only carry so much weight when you're shooting women with babies in their arms. Eventually someone will ask - "could these people really have been that bad?"

My 'forecast' is that we will see some of these types of events. But I don't think they'll last, because I don't think we've got another 5 good years left in our economy. For better or worse, I think the government has reached the point where all it's laws are essentially "unenforceable". There are just too many people, and too much stuff going on.

Don't take that to mean I advocate hoarding weapons or anything crazy - walk softly and carry a big stick, but discretion is the better part of valor.

Mike,

Thanks for the kind words,

Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: Are Guns The Canary In The Coalmine?
Aaron Moyer wrote:

Pat,

 

Quote:

Now, if anyone sees or hears anything about any plans to do any of the above, please do be kind enough to let us know!

*whistle* See no evil?

Drink a cup-full of sarcasm, and then re-read my post. ;)

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Re: Are Guns The Canary In The Coalmine?
ghandi wrote:

Remember folks, to many people, the government STILL is their voice of reason, law, order, and truth. Don't underestimate the power of broad-based Jedi Mind Tricks, aka, mass media to influence public behavior. You'd be painted as ultra-dangerous, delusional, paranoid right-wing terrorists that kill brave, honorable defenders of freedom. And you cook little children in cauldrons and gobble them up. I can see it on CNN now.

Yep.  It's too bad, but the fact that we still sing "land of the free and home of the brave" is a huge con job.  That's why it's on my list to at least consider another land.  I want a free land.  The US isn't anywhere close to the top of that list anymore.  

Aaron, I know plenty of FBI guys.  I'm a west point grad and a lot of my class are now in FBI, CIA, Justice...  Yes, they are great people (well, not the CIA guysCool).  National guard officers are as well.  But they get played just like all of us.  As the elite that controls the federal government creates the fear in the heart of the population that would be necessary to move on guns, they will have the FBI and National Guard believing that doing their professional, good-hearted, serve-the-country duty is all about "maintaining order" in the interest of "fighting terror" or whatever, and a little clause included in how to achieve said "order" will include gun confiscation just like it did in Katrina.  So it's not that they're bad people.  They're caught in the matrix just like we are.   Look at how the government deliberately increased the violence of the Seattle WTO riots in order to justify bringing Delta in to help suppress the "terror."  The actual protesters were begging the violent looters to cease...the looters were part of a staged con job to manipulate the military and the police into maintaining "order" in a very oppressive way.  

Plus, look who their boss is Aaron.  Eric Holder is a believer in 100% confiscation.  That's how easy it is for politicians to corrupt our law enforcement organizations.  Just put a corrupt anti-american at the top, and get a few plants in at lower levels.  There's a few people in every organization that are "in the club" so to speak.

 Poisonivy, that's a great point about the insurance.  Illinois effectively disarmed the citizens years ago with the licensing requirement and now they'll make it financially difficult due to the insurance requirement.  And look at what's happening to the price of ammo.  Check any gun store to see how their standard ball ammo inventory is doing...it's too expensive.  If govt adds a $20/round tax, they effectively confiscated guns from people.

 

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Re: Are Guns The Canary In The Coalmine?
Patrick wrote:

Canary-in-the-coal mine events:

1) Government mails checks home to everyone to "stimulate" the economy, a.k.a, the economic equivalent of crack cocaine.

2) Government bails out banks and auto companies.

3) Government dissolves contract law by forcing banks to change loan terms.

4) Government creates massive amounts of debt to "stimulate" the economy.

 

Now, if anyone sees or hears anything about any plans to do any of the above, please do be kind enough to let us know!

Brilliant!  So true.  So sad that 350,000,000 americans are sitting passively as this happens to them.  Shows how far we've evolved to a nation that is absolutely not free and not composed of a responsible citizenry that maintains power.  We are an empire, not a federal republic. 

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Re: Are Guns The Canary In The Coalmine?

I for one do not wish to provoke violence and actually desire to avoid it at all costs. And I think that can be done. HOWEVER, how long are we going to, as a public, continue taking crap from this leviathon and make it cease because we speak out as one voice and say ENOUGH!?

Sorry, don't apologize to the soccer moms and soccer dads as in conversations with them I find that they'll rationalize away any abuse to keep their kids safe. Safe from what? Nice nation you're leaving them. Trust me, they are most suceptible to the Jedi Mind Tricks and all the security fears and will gladly throw any citizen under the bus to keep Johnny and Mary "safe", whatever that means. 

Really though. How much more crap? Is that it? Just crabbing on the internet? How about peaceful, non-violent political organizing that has teeth to it? Because I'll tell you something folks. Without political resistance, peaceful resistance, this is only going to get worse, much worse. And I personally fear the day that the government is brazen enough to directly spit in the face of the biggest check on it's power. The 2nd amendement. Because if it ever comes to that, then we've failed in our duty as citizens. And miserably so. 

 

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