Any comments on mass tax failure?

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krogoth's picture
krogoth
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Any comments on mass tax failure?

Nobody here, all my fine economically minded friends or anyone for that matter is talking about a major missing element of this whole economic crisis. Has anybody factored in massive failure to pay taxes? I mean, if people are broke, no jobs, no house and living day to day on a mass scale, how will they pay taxes? Plus I am seeing a lot of chatter on other websites about people putting families first and not caring about taxes. What effect do you all think this will have on a large scale? Like say 10-30 million individuals or more?

Comments?

 

 

TimesAwasting's picture
TimesAwasting
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Re: Any comments on mass tax failure?

If we had the choice of not paying taxes, it would have an enormous effect!

Unfortunately, the problem is many/ most federal taxes are taken in advance (payroll deducted) or at point of purchase (fuel taxes). Most folks don't get the choice to "not" pay... one possible opportunity would be for most employed Americans to increase their personal exceptions on their W-4. That way they'd get more money in their paychecks, at the expense of the federal thieving spend-meisters!

That would be one way to "choke 'em" off!

krogoth's picture
krogoth
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Re: Any comments on mass tax failure?

From the chatter I am reading, people are claiming more dependants, or other tricks, to have the least tax taken if they are working to get as much pay as possible, then when they owe at the end of the year, that's when they are saying they will not pay. A lot of them are Iraq war protesters as well, so I don't know how credible this is.

 

 

 

TimesAwasting's picture
TimesAwasting
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Re: Any comments on mass tax failure?

That's the effective strategy I was suggesting. If enough folks do it, I doubt the IRS has the manpower to go after everyone... besides, tax-owers could claim they don't have the money (especially if they kept large amounts of money out of the bank and converted it into gold/ silver) and instead, state that they need their own bail-out.

Isn't that what the big business and wall street banksters have been doing? You know, bonus-ing the hell out of their companies profits and leaving the company bank accounts barren! Executives enriching themselves personally while having the tax payers cover their losses and retooling costs... Brilliant!

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lundsta
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Re: Any comments on mass tax failure?

I live in Oregon. Property taxes are due and I know alot of people who have claimed they are not paying. How many would have to not pay taxes before the government would give up? Is this the best strategy we have right now to get their attention?

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rlee
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Re: Any comments on mass tax failure?

Speaking only of property taxes, I had this discussion with one of my towns selectmen today.  The question I posed during talks of economic hardship was this:  "What if as little as 10% of the town just said NO to paying their property taxes this year?"  After brief back and forth, we determined that our town would close up and turn off the lights.  Just 10% doesn't seem like enough to close government, but think about the casts of 10%.  Government is not (supposed) to be in the real estate business.  Plus, it takes around three years and a lot more money in legal fees to fight someone who doesn't pay before it ever gets that far.  Once word gets out that these guys have the town on the run, it would be reasonable to believe that others will jump on the bandwagon too.  And lets not forget that on the last day if the court looks like it may side with the town after all, the owner just writes a check for the original amount and goes home without a scratch.  Ultimate result:  Nobody pays - town shuts down - big problem.  The next hurdle:  It's easy to shut off a car with a dead battery, it's another thing to start that same car back up.

krogoth's picture
krogoth
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I am thinking more towards the people who cant pay

I am thinking more towards the people who cant pay. Sure, you will have some sort of amount of people who simply don't pay, the people who can't pay I think would be the greatest concern. Just not enough manpower to enforce this issue, or to even jail tax offenders. If this perpetuates, it could become a major factor in the economic situation we are going through. It's not really even factored in with most of the websites I visit similar to CM's. We are missing a big piece of this puzzle with this, and it may come to bite us all in the ass.

TimesAwasting's picture
TimesAwasting
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Re: Any comments on mass tax failure?

Krogoth,

I misunderstood your point, which as you pose it factors on ABILITY.

I was thinking more along the lines of "willful" refusal to pay... and even then, just to "choke-off" the federal nincompoops. I don't want to hurt my community and the schools... they're not the misguided ones who are trying to bail out corporate America.

But on further reflection, your "ability" point trumps any taxpayer "protest".

If things really get bad, as it appears they will, in time there will be ever increasing breakdowns in services. And they will be experienced by "all". When that begins to happen, the snowball might become too big on its flight downhill... a self-spiralling cycle. Seems likely that it won't take too long until everyone stops paying for services they're not receiving. In fact, there might not be anyone there to receive payments, let alone enforce or collect them.

Yes, agreed. Big piece that is being overlooked! Very astute observation...

Crap! One more uninvited opponent to the wrestling match.

krogoth's picture
krogoth
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Re: Any comments on mass tax failure?

Yea I started with willful but now I am seeing more ability issues. It's a pretty overlooked and could be a major factor, because if the ability crowd starts nonpayment, the willful or able I should say, will follow the non able.

 

The plot thickens

 

 

 

 

TimesAwasting's picture
TimesAwasting
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Re: Any comments on mass tax failure?

Indeed it does!

I hadn't put the whole "breaking down of the system" into its origins, but I can clearly see now how it'll slowly begin to happen. In fact, we have already seen many such examples.

One would be trash collection. We've seen what happens when trash and garbage begins to pile up in any number of union/ contract disputes of major cities.

But now imagine it isn't a wage or benefit dispute that is driving the "stench", but a municipalities inability to pay the Trash collectors... or as Chris mentioned earlier this week, no animal control...

Wow, we need to make some contingency plans... and quick!

rlee's picture
rlee
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Posts: 148
Re: I am thinking more towards the people who cant pay

True, but my example works the same with the same result regardless.  Consider then that these folks 'can't' pay.  10% of my town isn't a huge number, nor is it in many places in this country.  There are far more little towns in the US than there are big cities and metros.  By simple numbers, just the costs alone associated with a small town trying to fight say, 50 homeowners at once in a court setting, over an estimated three years of battling, would overwhelm the remaining population and cause an all-out revolt.  The year-round population where I live is around 2200, and we could never pay for that kind of fight.

The type of revolt you're eluding to is a very real possibility requiring a very small number of people to start, and I too am surprised that it took this long for the subject to be brought up  - thanks for the eye opener!  

gyrogearloose's picture
gyrogearloose
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Re: Any comments on mass tax failure?

I have mentioned to "believers" that the first thing that will go is environmental concerns.

If services and enforcement start breaking down, when people are faced with the choice of "do I ruin a bit more environment and feed my children, or save that patch of land for wildlife and watch my children starve " guess what people will choose......

Switters covers aspects of that in  http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/al-gores-well-intentioned-delusion/8910

Informal rubbish tips on the banks of rivers etc will proliferate. 

But then again people will not have as much rubbish as  the cheap junky toy from China with all that packaging wont have been brought Undecided

Hamish

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DavidP
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Re: Any comments on mass tax failure?

I'm VERY glad someone brought this topic up. I have 5 acres in a fairly large city in Texas and my property taxes are extremly high. I have prepared for the looming emergency for about 9 years, getting rid of almost all dept, installing solar, growing/raising a large portion of my own food, etc. but how can you plan to cover this large burden? With all the shannagins going on with comex, stock manipulation, etc., I'm a bit worried that failure to pay may cause the ensuing police state to take the land or force me to "produce" something on the land that would pay for these taxes (dept slavery).

With the choas to come and all the FEMA facilities in place to house a paniced public, I would think one of the largest employers would be "law enforcment" of several denominations, especially if countries like China may be paying citizens to protect their interests. I don't feel warm and fuzzy assuming that there will be no reprocussions if me and my neighbors just refuse to pay.

It may not be an issue once the dollar reaches it's true value and maybe 1/10th oz. of gold would cover it for years to come. Has anyone thought of any other solutions to this?

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