American Idiots

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investorzzo's picture
investorzzo
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American Idiots

“Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.”
Thomas Paine

“Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives.”
James Madison

“Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.”
Edward Everett

http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/quinn/2009/0814.html

 

 

 

Thomas Hedin's picture
Thomas Hedin
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Re: American Idiots

So what is your solution to the economic mess in our country?

cannotaffordit's picture
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Re: American Idiots - Some solutions to economic mess

*  Eliminate the Fed.  Put our currency back into the hands of the citizenry.  Paying interest to a privately owned money machine is totally insane.  They've proven they cannot eliminate severe swings in the economy.  In fact, they may be the major cause of them, along with their friends on Wall Street.  Let the government borrow from we the people.  Pay us the interest, rather than paying it to the banking cartel.  If spending really is a major engine of the economy, and we give the people more to spend, through the interest they earn, that should be better than giving it to the banking cartel, who just hoard it.

*  Put banking back into the hands of local banks who are accountable and responsible to their local citizens.  If local banks, in corsortium, can't handle the credit needs of corporations, then maybe those corporations really are too big, and should be broken up into smaller ones......or allowed to fail.

*  Eliminate perpetuity for corporations.  Make them  justify their financial and social existence every 2 or 3 years, the way it was when they first started.  If they can't do it, they lose their corporate charter.

*  Take away the "personhood" of corporations.  Reserve that distinction for actual, living human beings.

*  Make big time lobbying illegal.  Fix it so that elected officials have to listen to the voters back home again, to find out how they want them to vote.

*  Set term limits.  Return to the idea of citizen legislators, instead of professional politicians.

*  Make it just as illegal to cheat, as is to steal.

*  Get religion out of politics, except as the individual's religious principles him/her to think.  No more attempted domination of the nation by certain religious blocks.

*  Tax mega-churches, unless they can prove that they are spending most of their money on helping those who are less fortunate - the reason they allowed tax-exempt status in the first place.  In fact, make all organizations that are supposedly organized to help others, prove they do, or be taxed.

*  Reform the IRS code, so that every American citizen and business can easily understand it.  There are too many loopholds, primarily used by those who are wealthy enough to know how to use them.

*  Make it illegal to move an American corporation "off shore" in order to avoid taxes.  Then, if they do it anyway, don't allow them to operate, or sell goods, inside U.S. borders.

*  Break up the huge news media ownerships.  "Without a free press, a democracy cannot exist."  There is nothing free about our present media.  They are controlled by huge corporations and their government patsies in D.C.   I say pay investigative reporters good bonuses to dig deep, and expose egregious behavior, without fear of losing their jobs, or even worse coming to them.

*Inform everyone of the true purposes, and who controls:  the International Monetary Fund (IMF), World Bank, Council of Foreign Relations (CFR), Tri-Lateral Commission, Bilderberg Group, etc.  Most folks would be SHOCKED beyond belief to learn the truth about these organizations.

*  Revoke the right of Monsanto corporation to own the patents on virtually all, and control, the crop seeds...to the detriment of small American farmers, and poor food quality for all Americans.  You can only get good wholesome food nowadays, if you grow it yourself or know a local farmer who plants only heirloom seeds, and avoids all the harsh chemicals made by Monsanto and a few others.

*  Cut out all subsidies to huge Agri-Business organizations.

*  Eliminate (if any are still in effect) all depletion allowances for oil. etc.

*  Explain it so every citizen can understand this:  Wars are not about freedom.  That is what we are feed, in order to get us to give up our lives, and money, for the wealthy/elite to gain their own self interests.  Wars are always started over religion, potential profits for the very rich, control over other sovereign nations - primarily to get their natural resources.

*  Give every American equal healthcare as a RIGHT, not a privilege, just as other advanced countries have done. Don't be fooled, and be dragged into fights with our fellow Americans, over the propaganda (lies) that are put out by certain health-related corporations, and their lapdogs in congress.

*  Take away the major powers, that allow corporations to control our government, and put the power into the hands of the working people, and small businesses, who are the backbone of our country.

* Stop "privatizing" (selling) assets  (that have been bought and paid for by tax dollars) to giant corporations and foreigners.  Some things work better when they are operated by private business.  Some things work better when they are held by the public, for the public interest.  Figure out which is which, and if something should be held by private business, then let them raise the money and build it themselves.  Then, if what they build proves to not be what's in the best interest of the public, let their project fail.*

What do you have, to add to this ?

 

 


Thomas Hedin's picture
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Re: American Idiots

I'll add that there is a bill in the Minnesota House and Senate right now that would return ownership of the money to the people.  It's called The Minnesota Transportation Act.

It's the first best step to taking our country back from the money powers, plus it would give us a way to finance our battle against them without having to borrow money from the money powers to fight them.

ao's picture
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Re: American Idiots - Some solutions to economic mess
Ben A wrote:

**  Give every American equal healthcare as a RIGHT, not a privilege, just as other advanced countries have done. Don't be fooled, and be dragged into fights with our fellow Americans, over the propaganda (lies) that are put out by certain health-related corporations, and their lapdogs in congress.

 

Why should healthcare be a right?

Farmer Brown's picture
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Re: American Idiots - Some solutions to economic mess

The only real rights are natural rights:  life, liberty, free will. 

All other so-called "rights" can only be accomplished by confiscating wealth from one person or group and transferring it to another.  Such a thing is not a right.  It is just organized and legalized violence.

cannotaffordit's picture
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Re: American Idiots

Obviously, you guys are well able to pay for your own healthcare, and are of the opinion that a society should only consist of people who have it made, with no thought of contributing to other less fortunate in the community.  Many countries have found that they can deliver a good quality of health care, to all citizens of the country at a price that does not break anyone.  As a long time, now retired, hospital CEO I know that, if you have insurance, you're paying for those who do not have healthcare anyway, and much of the time through the ER, which is the most expensive healthcare in this country.

What is it about your position that you don't understand that, for a culture/society to work well, there must be some things that the society must provide for all its citizens - police, fire, bridges, highways, and on and on. The old theory of "not taking wealth from one to give to another is an outdated, selfish, run-away capitalistism position.  Some of us realize that it is important sometimes to make relatively small sacrifices of what we've been able to accumulate - in many different ways - to see to it that others in our country/society, who may not have had the same opportunities, upbringing, etc as we had, have a better chance at a good life, free of pain and suffering, and free of bankruptcy in trying to deal with a healthcare system that is primarily for the more financiallyfortunate among us.

We need to become "team players" when it comes to our whole country, and stop the selfish, me only, lack of caring.

"Taking money out of my pocket to give to somebody else" is exactly what the crooks on Wall Street did, that has caused all of us so much pain.  Was that okay with you?

Come on fellows.  Be wiling to help provide a lack of pain and suffering for others, not just yourself!  If the shoe was on the other foot, would you still feel the same way about your money, if you didn't have any?  I seriously doubt it.

Out of all the things I said, in my first post, was that the only one, or most important one that you could comment on?

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Re: American Idiots

BenA,

You can describe your desire for providing services any way you want.  Just do not call them "rights".  That is my main problem with your position.  There is no such thing as "rights" except those we inherit from nature/God - whatever your preference.  

By calling them "rights", you lose me completely - I am not even interested in talking about it.  Who are you to determine what rights people should have?  Why not add food, housing, and education to the list?  Who will pay for all that?  Someone has to provide the actual service.  You either make them slaves, or you let them be free but confiscate from others (and make them slaves) to pay for them.

I'm all for helping people, but when you force me to give you the fruit of my labor so you can design whatever society you deem to be just, that's not charity anymore because I don't have a choice, do I?  

I have all sorts of problems with your list, it's just AO picked this particular issue out and I added to it.

idoctor's picture
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Re: American Idiots

I'm all for helping people, but when you force me to give you the fruit of my labor so you can design whatever society you deem to be just, that's not charity anymore because I don't have a choice, do I?  

+2

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Re: American Idiots

Ben, I too have a problem with your assertion that healthcare is a "right".

Now is it imperative that a civil society not allow any human being to suffer from lack of availability to healthcare?

Absolutely.

But I have two major issues with your position.

First, a right is inherent. It cannot be provided to you from someone else. Someone's right in this context is someone else's involuntary obligation. Rights do not obligate people to servitude. Rights secure the liberty of individuals.

The alledged "right to healthcare" implies that healthcare access is a collective right. Problem. There is no such thing as a "collective right". All rights are individualistic in nature. For if they are not, then a "group right" becomes a concept that subjugates the rights of individuals. And without individual rights the soul simply cannot breathe and liberty suffocates.

Second, I tire of listening to the false either-or dichotomy of "either the status quo or government mandated healthcare". There are other options where the concept of "no person should ever suffer from lack of care" can be fulfilled.

That said, let me reiterate. Any civilized society will want to assure that human suffering in it's most basic form is minimized. But it's still not a right.

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Re: American Idiots

BenA, first off, I'm a huge fan of much of your list.  HUGE primarily because you're focused on the top of the pyramid, the real cause of our problems (end the Fed, fix banking/money, fix corporations, in that order, then get back to local community where humanity has a pulse again...though you have some oddities like apparently wanting the IRS to continue being a big part of our future).  There's a bit of a dilemma however as some recommendations call for a return to local community and an end to the empire, but others require the empire to become even more powerful.  For example, the healthcare recommendation people are debating...

I understand BenA's desire for a healthcare right and the end of individualistic thinking (I'm all for that latter part...totally agree with you BenA). And I understand the opposition to that view because people know the economics of it and that trying to ensure a universal right requires maintaining the government establishment we now have which built itself off the Fed (so it's a paradox...eliminate the Fed, return to local banking/politics, and the basis for the healthcare we currently have disappears).

But let's take it beyond the left/right framework.  We need to recognize everything in the developed world including healthcare is a bubble and that collective bubble system is now crashing.  We're going to face millions of deaths (not epidemiologically disputable) around the world and far lower healthcare for those remaining as a result of the upcoming depression.  So our abnormally high expectations when it comes to healthcare are going to change.  We have had an odd fascination with life expectancy and other utilitarian measures of 'health' in the West for a while, but that's not reality for most of human history.  I think that oddity will now disappear.  I'd like to learn from native american tribal systems how they viewed health, what was healthcare, did they obsess over certain statistics while ignoring a more holistic notion of life, etc because I think we have a lot to learn (Lakhota, are you reading this? any insight?).  

So overall, I agree with both sides here: 1) end individualistic thinking, and 2) don't give DC even more power to run our lives, industries, and determine our rights.  The solution to both of those sides is to return to local community, end the empire.  As Morpheus said, this isn't either/or. Just because somebody opposes DC control/mandates, doesn't mean they're for individualistic thinking and suffering (DC mandates never proved to help anyway, so that's a false dichotomy).  That's how the media has setup the Dem/left/social vs. Repub/right/individual fight. Don't accept their setup.  There's a new way.  Martenson is working toward that new way in his new community.  (I wish I was too, but I have reasons for staying where I'm at right now)

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Re: American Idiots

To reiterate what Morpheus said:

Rights exist by virtue of being born.  They are not provided for by another man (though they can be taken away by another man).  These are life, liberty, and free will.  Nobody "gives us" those - we all have them the instant we arrive in this world.  They can be taken away: another person can kill us, we can be enslaved, and society can prohibit us from exercising our will.

Any other so-called rigths, like health care, education, and food are not provided by nature.  Nature does not heal the sick, put food on your table, or provide shelter.  Someone else must do the work of providing them; they can only be provided from one man to another.  There are only two ways one man can get something from another: 1) through a free, voluntary exchange or 2) By force.  I suppose there is a third way: charity, but that could be argued to be a subset of 1. 

Therefore, those things are not rights, because nobody has a right to force another man into an exchange he does not desire.  The only way they can be rights is if a group of people is deprived, by force, of their natural rights.

 

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Re: American Idiots
Ben A wrote:

Obviously, you guys are well able to pay for your own healthcare, and are of the opinion that a society should only consist of people who have it made, with no thought of contributing to other less fortunate in the community.  Many countries have found that they can deliver a good quality of health care, to all citizens of the country at a price that does not break anyone.  As a long time, now retired, hospital CEO I know that, if you have insurance, you're paying for those who do not have healthcare anyway, and much of the time through the ER, which is the most expensive healthcare in this country.

What is it about your position that you don't understand that, for a culture/society to work well, there must be some things that the society must provide for all its citizens - police, fire, bridges, highways, and on and on. The old theory of "not taking wealth from one to give to another is an outdated, selfish, run-away capitalistism position.  Some of us realize that it is important sometimes to make relatively small sacrifices of what we've been able to accumulate - in many different ways - to see to it that others in our country/society, who may not have had the same opportunities, upbringing, etc as we had, have a better chance at a good life, free of pain and suffering, and free of bankruptcy in trying to deal with a healthcare system that is primarily for the more financiallyfortunate among us.

We need to become "team players" when it comes to our whole country, and stop the selfish, me only, lack of caring.

"Taking money out of my pocket to give to somebody else" is exactly what the crooks on Wall Street did, that has caused all of us so much pain.  Was that okay with you?

Come on fellows.  Be wiling to help provide a lack of pain and suffering for others, not just yourself!  If the shoe was on the other foot, would you still feel the same way about your money, if you didn't have any?  I seriously doubt it.

Out of all the things I said, in my first post, was that the only one, or most important one that you could comment on?

Ben A,

You're making a lot of assumptions here that may or may not have any basis in fact.  What makes you think that any of us have not contributed to those that are less fortunate than us?  That's rather presumptuous. 

Just out of curiousity, what percentage of your AGI do you regularly donate to charitable causes?  Also, how many hours of free labor/services do you provide per week/month/year to those less fortunate than you?  Have you done any pro bono work in poverty stricken geographical areas?  

Also, which country's health care system or systems do you wish to emulate?

As a hospital CEO, if you are like many of those I've come across, you've probably contributed to the present day problem.  While I'm not personally accusing you of hypocrisy, if you are statistically like the others in your previous occupation, you would most likely fall into that category.  The hospital CEOs that I know have been the cause of much pain and suffering of those under their influence.  In fact, in our locale, if TSHTF and societal acrimony grew to the point where citizens vented their anger against those they felt responsible for their problems, the present and past hospital CEOs would be among the first to experience retribution.  You may be a great guy personally but your occupation is generally viewed about as favorably as lawyers.  This is not meant to be a personal attack but your statements do seem to be a bit of the pot calling the kettle black.

And the last I knew, capitalism wasn't outdated, socialism and communism were.  That doesn't mean one should be selfish but forced re-distribution of wealth is never a good idea.  One should be able to chose how much one wishes to donate to various causes rather than having it forced upon them.  The funny thing is that many of the citizens like yourself who want the rest of us to contribute our wealth to those in need are more willing to force others to give up what they have rather than give personally to the causes they appear to so fervently believe in.  If you and everyone else who believes like you gives of their time and money to those who are less fortunate, there shouldn't be a problem.  Unfortunately, that hasn't been the case.

Furthermore, while I believe in taking care of widows, orphans, those afflicted with medical problems due to no fault of their own, etc., I abhor having to taking care of those who have their problems due to food abuse (overeating and improper eating), tobacco abuse, alcohol abuse, drug abuse, risk taking behavior (ranging from unprotected sex to extreme sports), etc.  From where I stand, the majority of costs incurred by the U.S. healthcare system are due to the former.  Such problems as non-traumatic osteoarthritis, Type II diabetes, cardiovascular disease, lung disease, hypothyroidism, osteoporosis, and a whole range of other degenerative illnesses should be relatively rare phenomenon rather than commonplace if not epidemic in frequency.  If you wish to support these people, fine.  I don't.   You can contribute your assets to the latter group of individuals, I'll contribute my assets to the former group of individuals.

And, by the way, for me, the shoe was at one time on the other foot.  You have a choice to bemoan your fate and parasitize off the system or take an active role in improving your station in life.  I chose the latter.  Also, as another example, I have a personal friend who is a low level quadriplegic who gets in his wheelchair every day and goes off to work because he has too much personal pride and dignity to accept a hand-out from the system.  It is a daily struggle for him, very difficult, but he does it anyway while able bodied people who have some pain in their body are getting full social security disability and contributing nothing to society with all the free time they have.  It's a character issue and a choice.

I agree with much of what you said but not all of it and vehemently disagree that healthcare is or should be a right.  If healthcare should be a right, then clothes on your back, food in your belly, a roof over your head, transportation, insurance, retirement, an occasional vacation, etc., should all be a right.  We would like to have all of those but they're certainly not rights.

 

 

  

     

 

 

 

 

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Re: American Idiots

Y'all are just too funny!

You all, are arguing over semantics.

There are some facts that have been presented here that some have avoided. The "right" to healthcare I will not argue for or against it being a "right". Let's be pragmatic. I want to only debate the financials and actual outlay of funds.

Health insurance (BTW that is a lovely euphemism. It should be called "Sickness insurance") costs are increasing because of many things. Run away, lawsuits where everyone wants to win the "liability lotto"; non-reimbursed indigent care mandated by law; CYA medicine practice (see the first point); additional costs by providers incurred by trying to comply with insurance industry "requirements for quality" that are really a smokescreen to avoid paying clams.... and the list goes on and on.

My well educated friends, you are already being "forced" to pay more out of your hard earned income by the way of higher premiums, higher taxes, and higher "out-of-pocket" healthcare expenses.

My argument isn't, "Well then, because you are already paying, why not pay more!" Nor, am I so naive to think that if we have a "public" option, those other costs will decrease. It will only increase the profits of the insurance companies.

 

I believe, the way to "fix" the system as the question was asked by Thomas Hedin;

So what is your solution to the economic mess in our country?

Has been answered by the author of this thread.

We don't take the time to educate ourselves about the real reason things are happening and instantly "pick a side" to form our opinion. I am saying this about this group. and YOU ALL are here because you are some of the best informed. You know that the man behind the screen is just a hoax. Don't fall into another trap of "rights" vs "privileges" argument that is only meant to divide and conquer.

What I will say is this. The beast will not go willingly. I am convinced that it cannot be killed by conventional means. It has to be simply starved to death, or die of a viral infection. My friends, when the beast dies, there will be a lot of crying and gnashing of teeth.

C.

 

ao's picture
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Re: American Idiots
Morpheus wrote:

Ben, I too have a problem with your assertion that healthcare is a "right".

Now is it imperative that a civil society not allow any human being to suffer from lack of availability to healthcare?

Absolutely.

But I have two major issues with your position.

First, a right is inherent. It cannot be provided to you from someone else. Someone's right in this context is someone else's involuntary obligation. Rights do not obligate people to servitude. Rights secure the liberty of individuals.

The alledged "right to healthcare" implies that healthcare access is a collective right. Problem. There is no such thing as a "collective right". All rights are individualistic in nature. For if they are not, then a "group right" becomes a concept that subjugates the rights of individuals. And without individual rights the soul simply cannot breathe and liberty suffocates.

Second, I tire of listening to the false either-or dichotomy of "either the status quo or government mandated healthcare". There are other options where the concept of "no person should ever suffer from lack of care" can be fulfilled.

That said, let me reiterate. Any civilized society will want to assure that human suffering in it's most basic form is minimized. But it's still not a right.

Hear, hear!  Thomas Jefferson couldn't have said it better. 

 

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Re: American Idiots

"Good posts fellows.  Great ideas.   So, it appears that no one really argues with the outcome I want, just my use of the word right."

Fine.  So, call it something else, I don't care.  What word would you prefer to use, as long as we don't leave 50 million of our fellow citizens suffering, physically and financially because they cannot get sufficient care, and health education, because of their financial state in life.  

I have enough experience to know that some folks are just too lazy to provide the basics for themselves, but I am also fully aware that a lot of people did not get the same chance in life that I got, because of their insufficient family upbringing, or because of other circumstances, i. e. unexpected disease, etc.  What are we to do with these folks?  I can't see where local society, religious organizations, etc. have really stepped up to care for these folks adequately  I guess I just did enough suffering in my own life to I realize that had it not been for a few "hands up" that came my way, I could be one of those folks I'm talking about in my first post.  So, I do not consider that I am totally a "self made man."  I have enough sense to know that I got to where I am today, educationally, financially, socially, etc. because of all kinds of circumstances that I did not necessarily create on my own.  Some of it was simply because of what was provided for me because I happened to be born in America.  By the same token, I realize that many others are likewise in the circumstances they are in, not necessarily because of their own lack of self discipline, stupidity or whatever.  Not everyone is able to "pull themselves up by their own bootstraps."  So, for my part, I'm willing to give up some of what I have, for others less fortunate, and I do a lot of that, voluntarily.. But I have also realized that I'm only one person, and I cannot fix this thing all by myself.  And I know that there are enough selfish folks who talk the "free giving" game but are not really willing to voluntarily give to the suffering of others, that those particular problems, and yes food too, will never be solved voluntarily.  So, there are times when we, as a society, should step up to the plate, collectively, and do what we can.

BTW, it should be fairly obvious that I do not like, nor trust, the all powerful government.  I feel very strongly about them wasting way too much money in D.C. that could be used for far more beneficial things for our citizenry.

So, okay, I'm willing to drop the word "right," if that is a hot button for you.  What word would you like to substitute?

But please don't talk about "money in your own pocket" as though you, and you alone, put it all there.  Truth is, you may have very well done your part to get to where you are, but you didn't do everything that got you there.  The society in which you happen to live also contributed a lot to your well being; much that you may not have considered, or even know about.

Am I a socialist?  H _ _ _ no!  Do I believe government is always the right entity to always do everything?  H_ _ _ no!

Do I like my governmentally run police protection, fire protection, water supply, etc. etc.  Yes indeed, and I don't mind one bit paying for those things, although I may never benefit directly from any of them.  In other words, some things just naturally work better when they are done "universally" within a nation.  There are plenty of other advanced countries that have proven that health care is one of those things, regardless of what you may have heard from private healthcare organizations, big pharma, or those who are simply sick of paying too much taxes for what they get in return.  I say take care of the healthcare needs of all our people, and let's stop wasting money building monuments to the memory of politicians - like the bridge to nowhere, no-bid contracts for "buddies," subsidies for those who have absolutely no need for them, etc. etc.   

So, healthcare is not "right."  Then I will call it a "privilege" that every American ought to enjoy,  just because they are Americans - a nation that unselfishly takes care of some of the basic needs of all its fellow citizens.

How does the healthcare issue stack up against some of the other issues I mentioned that are taking our county down a fast road to destruction?  How about we deal with some of those, just as vehemently as we oppose healthcare!

idoctor's picture
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Re: American Idiots

Too many people abuse themselves then want sombody else to pay for it.

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Re: American Idiots
RNCarl wrote:

  You all, are arguing over semantics....

Don't fall into another trap of "rights" vs "privileges" argument that is only meant to divide and conquer.

Carl,

With all due respect, words are very important and "rights" are very different from "privileges".  I think it does pay to ask ourselves exactly what it is each one of those terms actually means and whether we should have any expectation that we can demand either from our fellow man.

Politicians carefully pick their words because they know they have consequences, and every now and then, they get us all to believe in something we never would have thought possible just a few years ago.  Here are some fine examples:

"Federal Reserve":  It's not "Federal" and it's not a "Reserve". 

"Social Security":    Sounds a lot better than "Unfundable Ponzi Scheme"

"Federal Reserve Notes":  Could more accurately be called "Worthless Paper"

"Homeland Security":  The Government Wire-Tapping and Privacy-Obfuscation Act.

Patriot Act:  A neat way for the government to get a peak into everyone's bank accounts for tax purposes, all in the name of "Patriotism"!

Medicare/Medicaid:  The Social Security Ponzi scheme worked so well, let's try the same concept in medicine for the elderly.

Stimulus Spending:  The "Let's Explode Our Debt" bills of 2008 and 2009.  Look for parts 3 and 4 from a politician near you soon.

Postal Service:  A Pension and Medical Plan for a large group of government employees that happens to deliver some mail (at a loss) even though such a service can easilly be accomplished by the private sector.

Tennessee Valley Authority:  It's "authority" is that it's a government monopoly.  It's time to sell this thing to the private sector  The people of Tennessee will appreciate it, and Uncle Sam can lose its liquidate-an-asset-virginity.

I better stop there.  Cheers,

Patrick

 

cannotaffordit's picture
cannotaffordit
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Jun 12 2008
Posts: 273
Re: American Idiots

Right on RNcarl.  Some excellent points, in my opinion.  Why the heck are we fighting among ourselves, when we all know how hard it was for us to get ahead, and that we really want all our fellow beings to experience well being.  Seems to me we are arguing semantics, or the proper way to accomplish it.

BTW  ao, thanks for setting me straight on how the world views my profession.(ret)  Even though I have the degrees. I ran mostly rural hospitals, knew my patients, my employees and their families pretty darn well.  I never realized, before you pointed it out to me, just what a low image we had.  From the many social contacts I had, it always seemed that most people really appreciated what I did to help them have good care in their communities.

And, I didn't realize that I "bemoaned my fate."  I'm pretty happy with what I accomplished in my life.  I just am smart enough o know that I didn't do it all on my own.  Lot's of others have contributed to my well being, and I don't mean cash.

And, ao, my personal giving has been around 25-30 percent annually for years.  What is that to you?

How about getting off your "run Ben down" horse, and let's talk about the best way to solve some of our problems?

Morpheus's picture
Morpheus
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Posts: 1200
Re: American Idiots

Ben it's not semantics. Language and vernacular are the sword used by slick politicians to condition people into a belief system. That's why so many people flagged the word "right".

Now, if we can agree that the word "right" is improper then we can move past that and discuss the merits of assuring that every living person has adequate health coverage, which in principle I am in agreement with. It's how to accomplish it that I believe warrants a good discussion.

In a world of universal deceipt, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.

cannotaffordit's picture
cannotaffordit
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Posts: 273
Re: American Idiots

OK.  I agreed to move past "right."   So, lets move on, and without belittling each other.

Morpheus's picture
Morpheus
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Re: American Idiots
Ben A wrote:

OK.  I agreed to move past "right."   So, lets move on, and without belittling each other.

No one intentionally belittles anyone around here Ben. If they do then they do not last very long.

May I first start by asking if you are from the US? I assume not?

ao's picture
ao
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Posts: 2220
Re: American Idiots

Great comments by everyone.  The thinking minds that are present here are just outstanding.

Ben A,

Obviously, no man is an island, never has been, never will be.  But as Morpheus so elegantly stated, this dichotomy we're presented with (with regards to healthcare) provides poor choices either way when better alternatives exist.  As RNcarl stated, if I may paraphrase, our so-called healthcare system is actually a legal establisment/health insurance business/pharmaceutical industry enrichment perpetuation system focused on sickness rather than health.  As Strabes elegantly pointed out, we need to keep the government out of this (based on its abysmal track record) and we need to reset our standards a bit lower.  I can't tell you how many folks run to their doctors for every ache and pain, sniffle and cough, and needlessly drain our system as a consequence.  And Farmer Brown obviously understands the power of words (using them as effectively as he does to make many cogent points) to change our thoughts and our world.  Words are powerful and can often even surpass actions in their effects.

If I may be blunt, while our citizenry has abundant positive virtues, we've also become a bunch of self-centered, self indulgent, overly dependent, greedy, weak wimps who are all too willing to sacrifice our liberty and independence for safety and security.  It comes down to character which comes from morals which comes from ... well, you know ... the banned  subject.

The crux of the entire problem, as I see it, is a moral issue.  Everything else is dancing around that issue.  It's the elephant in the room that we are discouraged from talking about in our PC world.  But we can't talk about that here.

On a more tangible level, however, of problems we can address right here and right now, going down a checklist of problems that need to be resolved, I think the issue of ending the Federal Reserve sits at the very top.  As many here have said, Morpheus especially, and as Ron Paul has written about, "End the Fed!".  Let's take these words and make them a rallying point for citizens.  Promote the concept to family, friends, neighbors, and acquaintances.  Relentlessly hammer your representatives about the issue.  Similarly flood the Whitehouse with e-mails on this issue.  Speak out about it at town hall meetings,  Push the issue into the MSM again and again, not just the blogosphere.   Don't give them a minute's rest and don't let them ever forget it.  Persevere until you crush it out of existence.  And then, do not allow them to substitute any proxy in its place.    

 

Doug's picture
Doug
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Posts: 3200
Re: American Idiots

Morpheus

Quote:

Now, if we can agree that the word "right" is improper then we can move past that and discuss the merits of assuring that every living person has adequate health coverage, which in principle I am in agreement with. It's how to accomplish it that I believe warrants a good discussion.

I come to this conversation late.  I want to comment generally on the notion of rights.  Aside from some religious beliefs, we have no rights outside of what our parents/village/society can provide and protect for us.  In a Democracy we, as a society, decide what those rights should be.  Our rights in the US are spelled out in the Bill of Rights.  Everything else is a benefit.  To my mind it is not an unreasonable notion that for anything to be considered a right an Amendment to the Constitution should be passed by the requisite 2/3 majorities of both houses of Congress.  (Or by Constitutional convention, which has never been pulled off).  That is unless, of course, the Supremes decide that some benefit is guaranteed under the existing Bill of Rights.  So, in theory at least, if we decide that health care should be a right and persuade or legislators of the same, then it can become a right. 

Of course, deciding that health care is a right runs up against economics.  What can we afford to provide?  This, to me, is the crux of the issue.  And, what privileges/income/material goods are we willing to give up to assure that health care is available to the greatest number of our fellow human beings?  And, what responsibilities do we as the beneficiaries of the health care system have to assure that we place as little burden on the system as possible?  There is little question in my mind that health care would become much more affordable if we each took it upon ourselves to live as healthily as possible.  Then the issue of how far we can go in coercing others to live healthy lifestyles comes into the picture.

cannotaffordit's picture
cannotaffordit
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Jun 12 2008
Posts: 273
Re: American Idiots

Wrong assumption Morpheus.  Reconsider, if you will, the personal slams posted by ao.  Completely inappropriate, in an environment where folks are trying to debate an idea, trying to come to a better understanding.  Are you saying that was not intentional?

What, exactly, did I say that caused you to "assume" I am not a native born U.S. citizen?

ao's picture
ao
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 4 2009
Posts: 2220
Re: American Idiots
Ben A wrote:

Right on RNcarl.  Some excellent points, in my opinion.  Why the heck are we fighting among ourselves, when we all know how hard it was for us to get ahead, and that we really want all our fellow beings to experience well being.  Seems to me we are arguing semantics, or the proper way to accomplish it.

BTW  ao, thanks for setting me straight on how the world views my profession.(ret)  Even though I have the degrees. I ran mostly rural hospitals, knew my patients, my employees and their families pretty darn well.  I never realized, before you pointed it out to me, just what a low image we had.  From the many social contacts I had, it always seemed that most people really appreciated what I did to help them have good care in their communities.

And, I didn't realize that I "bemoaned my fate."  I'm pretty happy with what I accomplished in my life.  I just am smart enough o know that I didn't do it all on my own.  Lot's of others have contributed to my well being, and I don't mean cash.

And, ao, my personal giving has been around 25-30 percent annually for years.  What is that to you?

How about getting off your "run Ben down" horse, and let's talk about the best way to solve some of our problems?

Ben A,

I'm glad that you were such an exemplary hospital CEO.  However, in lecturing on healthcare issues in 40 different states, I have not found that to be the general case, according to the hospital employees that I have spoken to (who numbered in the thousands).  The number of hospital CEOs who consider the welfare of their patients and employees over the almight bottom line is less than those that don't, in my experience. These individuals (i.e. patients, employees, community members, etc.) may say one thing to the person (i.e. the hospital CEO) who controls a certain aspect of their fate but may be thinking and saying something very different in that person's absence.

Secondly, with regards to the "bemoaning ... fate" statement, I thought that from the context of the statement, it would be understood that the 'you' was a plural 'you', not a singular 'you'.  If not, let me clarify the point here.  Go back and read the statement again and let me emphasize that it was not directed towards you as an individual bemoaning your fate but the collective 'you' of a certain mindset.  My apologies for any misconstrued meaning.

Thirdly, with regards to individual giving, I again applaud you for your generosity.  What that is to me is an indication that you are not asking others to do what you have not done yourself.  Again, your generosity is atypical for the American public.

Furthermore, if you take my statements to be a personal running down of you, you are incorrect.  But when one makes statements such as you have made, you need to be a little less thin skinned and expect a certain amount of criticism.  Please go back and carefully read what I wrote and let me know what particular statement ran you down personally and I will most definitely apologize and seek to amend what I said.

 

ao's picture
ao
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 4 2009
Posts: 2220
Re: American Idiots

Ben A,

Just an an addendum, can you honestly say that the CEO of Chicago's Northwestern Memorial Hospital with his $16.4 million annual salary (at a supposedly not-for-profit hospital) is worth the $5000+/hr. he is paid (assuming a 60 hour work week and two weeks vacation a year) and adds that much value to the system?  I have a hard time believing that.  IMHO, he's part of the problem and so is the board that gives him that salary. 

http://industry.bnet.com/healthcare/1000429/hospital-ceo-pay-comes-under-scrutiny/?tag=content;col1

JAG's picture
JAG
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 26 2008
Posts: 2492
Re: American Idiots
ao wrote:

The thinking minds that are present here are just outstanding.

(Insert standard dissenting opinion here)

Farmer Brown's picture
Farmer Brown
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Offline)
Joined: Nov 23 2008
Posts: 1503
Re: American Idiots

http://libertariannation.org/a/f12l3.html

How Government Solved the Health Care Crisis

Medical Insurance that Worked — Until Government "Fixed" It

by Roderick T. Long

Today, we are constantly being told, the United States faces a health care crisis. Medical costs are too high, and health insurance is out of reach of the poor. The cause of this crisis is never made very clear, but the cure is obvious to nearly everybody: government must step in to solve the problem.

Eighty years ago, Americans were also told that their nation was facing a health care crisis. Then, however, the complaint was that medical costs were too low, and that health insurance was too accessible. But in that era, too, government stepped forward to solve the problem. And boy, did it solve it!

 

In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, one of the primary sources of health care and health insurance for the working poor in Britain, Australia, and the United States was the fraternal society. Fraternal societies (called "friendly societies" in Britain and Australia) were voluntary mutual-aid associations. Their descendants survive among us today in the form of the Shriners, Elks, Masons, and similar organizations, but these no longer play the central role in American life they formerly did. As recently as 1920, over one-quarter of all adult Americans were members of fraternal societies. (The figure was still higher in Britain and Australia.) Fraternal societies were particularly popular among blacks and immigrants. (Indeed, Teddy Roosevelt's famous attack on "hyphenated Americans" was motivated in part by hostility to the immigrants' fraternal societies; he and other Progressives sought to "Americanize" immigrants by making them dependent for support on the democratic state, rather than on their own independent ethnic communities.)


Davos's picture
Davos
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 17 2008
Posts: 3620
Re: American Idiots

The 3 G's

Morpheus's picture
Morpheus
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 27 2008
Posts: 1200
Re: American Idiots
Ben A wrote:

Wrong assumption Morpheus.  Reconsider, if you will, the personal slams posted by ao.  Completely inappropriate, in an environment where folks are trying to debate an idea, trying to come to a better understanding.  Are you saying that was not intentional?

What, exactly, did I say that caused you to "assume" I am not a native born U.S. citizen?

Probably the fact that I picked up from reading this last night where I was half asleep and likely confused you with someone else?

I'll have to go back and read ao's posts. I must confess that I haven't read all of them here.

 

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