Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

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John99's picture
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Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

A four minute youtube and worth the time.

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

Powerful!   A few years ago I would have found such statements to be an outrageous lie, but now they just seems sad and true.  Why don't more people wake up to the system around them?  I think it is much easier to believe the lie than to accept the truth.

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

Excellent video!  Thank you!

I too would have listened to this a few years ago and said "a**hole traitor" or something like it.  Now, I know the truth....and it's not what we've been brainwashed into thinking.   ....and the truth shall set you free.

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

Great speech, but it is lacking.

Sadly the racist mantra repeated by Americans against Americans is only a partial truth.

Anyone who has studied Islam knows that the Koran demands all to submit. Anyone who understands what they have studied in the Koran know that the Koran is laid out in Bedouin poetic style, Longest chapter and verse to the shortest. Not in chronological format! Once you understand that, you can read it chronologically and see the principle of abrogation. The principle of abrogation requires that the peaceful loving verse given first in the Koran give way to the later warmongering, racist pro jihad verses. Do a google search of Walid Shoebat and see what he says. he used to be a terrorist and has been trying to warn the U.S. since long before 2001.

Before you tell me that Christians are truly as evil, or some other morally equivocal statement, think about these handy facts:

More people have died worldwide due to the Islamic Legal system in the first months of this year than in 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition.

90% of all people killed in the world are done so at the hands of the 90% Islamic terrorist groups.

Hitler had the "Final Solution" co-signed by the Grand Mufti of the Al Aqsa Mosque. The Grand Mufti then raised 2 divisions of SS troops for Hitler, from among white Muslims in the Balkans.

Those same Muslims in the Balkans are the ones the United States intervened to save in 1996. Remember when we invaded Sarajevo? I do.

The man I killed in Baghdad, a blonde sniper, in the summer of 2005, was from the Balkans. The very same people we went to save now fight us in Iraq and Afghanistan, WHY? Because the RELIGION COMMANDS IT.

When I speak on this it usually takes 3 hours to get the basic Islamic truths into the average Americans head. I don't expect many who read this to get it without further research of factual information.

Let's not let someone who has the right to drape himself in the flag, deflect the truth that we are truly fighting and why.

 

Let the flaming responses begin.

 

Jager06

 

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

Jager,

Thank you kindly.
This forum is generally tough on talk about religion, but what you've stated is fact, hard earned by your life experience.
I pray people listen to what you're saying, and will say nothing else on the subject.

Every one of us must consider at some point how much of our culture is worth saving, and what we'll do to preserve it.

Cheers,

Aaron

 

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy
Jager06 wrote:

Great speech, but it is lacking.

Sadly the racist mantra repeated by Americans against Americans is only a partial truth.

Anyone who has studied Islam knows that the Koran demands all to submit. Anyone who understands what they have studied in the Koran know that the Koran is laid out in Bedouin poetic style, Longest chapter and verse to the shortest. Not in chronological format! Once you understand that, you can read it chronologically and see the principle of abrogation. The principle of abrogation requires that the peaceful loving verse given first in the Koran give way to the later warmongering, racist pro jihad verses. Do a google search of Walid Shoebat and see what he says. he used to be a terrorist and has been trying to warn the U.S. since long before 2001.

Before you tell me that Christians are truly as evil, or some other morally equivocal statement, think about these handy facts:

More people have died worldwide due to the Islamic Legal system in the first months of this year than in 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition.

90% of all people killed in the world are done so at the hands of the 90% Islamic terrorist groups.

Hitler had the "Final Solution" co-signed by the Grand Mufti of the Al Aqsa Mosque. The Grand Mufti then raised 2 divisions of SS troops for Hitler, from among white Muslims in the Balkans.

Those same Muslims in the Balkans are the ones the United States intervened to save in 1996. Remember when we invaded Sarajevo? I do.

The man I killed in Baghdad, a blonde sniper, in the summer of 2005, was from the Balkans. The very same people we went to save now fight us in Iraq and Afghanistan, WHY? Because the RELIGION COMMANDS IT.

When I speak on this it usually takes 3 hours to get the basic Islamic truths into the average Americans head. I don't expect many who read this to get it without further research of factual information.

Let's not let someone who has the right to drape himself in the flag, deflect the truth that we are truly fighting and why.

Let the flaming responses begin.

Jager06

Jager -

You have committed the cardinal sin of citing verifiable truths here.  Many are satisfied with nebulous extensions of circumstantial evidence held together by leaps of faith and opinion masquerading as fact.

I hope the mods leave your post up and I look forward to reading more.

I'm guessing you have read Samuel Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations"??

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

Dogs-

No sir I have not. I will put it on my reading list based on your above reccomendation though.

Jager06

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

Anyone who has studied Islam knows that the Koran demands all to submit. Anyone who understands what they have studied in the Koran know that the Koran is laid out in Bedouin poetic style, Longest chapter and verse to the shortest. Not in chronological format! Once you understand that, you can read it chronologically and see the principle of abrogation. The principle of abrogation requires that the peaceful loving verse given first in the Koran give way to the later warmongering, racist pro jihad verses. Do a google search of Walid Shoebat and see what he says. he used to be a terrorist and has been trying to warn the U.S. since long before 2001.

I agree that there is certainly an extremist element within Islam that wants to dominate the world.  What I wonder is if we historically did not get so involved in backing strong arm dictators like the Saudi royal family, the Shaw, and Sadam, would we still be a target?  Yes, I am sure that there still would be a minority that would advocate violent action against non-believers, but would they have any moral legitimacy and the backing of a large number of the population without our misguided interventionalism?  I don't think so.

Before you tell me that Christians are truly as evil, or some other morally equivocal statement, think about these handy facts:

Where did this come from?  Who said anything about Christians?  We are probably going to get this thread nixed if we drag religion in to it.

More people have died worldwide due to the Islamic Legal system in the first months of this year than in 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition.

90% of all people killed in the world are done so at the hands of the 90% Islamic terrorist groups.

Hitler had the "Final Solution" co-signed by the Grand Mufti of the Al Aqsa Mosque. The Grand Mufti then raised 2 divisions of SS troops for Hitler, from among white Muslims in the Balkans.

Those same Muslims in the Balkans are the ones the United States intervened to save in 1996. Remember when we invaded Sarajevo? I do.

The man I killed in Baghdad, a blonde sniper, in the summer of 2005, was from the Balkans. The very same people we went to save now fight us in Iraq and Afghanistan, WHY? Because the RELIGION COMMANDS IT.

If what you are saying is we should not have gone to the Balkans in the 1990's and we should not be in Iraq now, then I agree.

When I speak on this it usually takes 3 hours to get the basic Islamic truths into the average Americans head. I don't expect many who read this to get it without further research of factual information.

Let's not let someone who has the right to drape himself in the flag, deflect the truth that we are truly fighting and why.

Please explain a little more of  "the truth that we are truly fighting and why".

Let the flaming responses begin.

This statement makes you seem like a toll.

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

The meaning of my post seems to have been misunderstood.

It is a requirement in Islam to wage war against anyone who does not convert to Islam.

Any political system that is not based on Shari'a Law is not authorized in Islam and must be destroyed.

Jihad is used 104 times in the Koran, only once is it used to describe an inner cleansing that so many in the West believe it means. All other times it is the mandatory reaction to anyone who is not Muslim.

Islam promotes two ways to Paradise:

1. Do as Mohammed commanded and act as he did. Mohammed cut off 600 to 900 heads a day. (Depending on your translating ability)

2. Die with the intent of killing an infidel. This results in instant admission to Paradise, as a Martyr. It also allows the Martyr to bring up to 80 family members with him into Paradise. This is why you see mothers passing out candy and rejoicing over the death of their child (suicide bomber), they have just been guaranteed a place in Paradise.

Finally, Islamic Law mandates that anyone who chooses to live in a Muslim land be considered a Dhimmi. A second class citizen with no legal rights. So for example if a Muslim strikes a non muslim in the face and the non muslim strikes back, then it is a clear cut case of "Unprovoked Attack" on a True Human (the Muslim).

This applies to Nations, as can bee seen when Israel responds to rocket and mortar attacks with military force. The standard response from the Muslim Nations nearby is that it is an "Unprovoked" attack.

Our presence in the middle East and Afghanistan, while financially debilitating does provide a service. It allows Jihadis, those who are serious about their faith, to attack Americans without the civilian (to us and our children) damage associated with an attack here in the U.S.

This protection is rapidly eroding for us here in the United States though. Of the 30 Jihad related attacks that have been thwarted in the U.S. since 9/11/01, fully ten were discovered in the last 8 months. This sudden increase in Jihad attempts here in the U.S. ( predominantly by American citizens who have converted to Islam) should have alarm bells ringing.

My intended statement in the post above should have read;

Let's not let someone who has the right to drape himself in the flag, deflect the truth of what we are truly fighting and why.

The reason we were attacked on 9/11/01 has more to do with what happened on the same day in 1683 than it does with our troops being used as interventionists in the world now. Too bad our history lessons don't cover that from a religious perspective as the schools do in the mid east.

Please research anything I say, and feel free to prove me wrong. Just leave all prejudices at the door.

Jager06

 

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

Please research anything I say, and feel free to prove me wrong. Just leave all prejudices at the door.

Jager06

Well, my dear Jager06, seeing as you asked.....:-)

I am retired and live aboard my sailboat. To mark the millennium in 2000 friends helped me sail from Ft. Lauderdale, Fla. across the Atlantic to Spain and into Europe. I was working at the time and was supposed to return to work, but the trip was somehow magical and I couldn't go back to the rat race. Instead I have been sailing the Mediterranean for the last nine and a half years, living in different countries, and meeting wonderful people in these travels.

For the last five of those years I have lived in a Muslim country, and purely because that is my choice. When I first arrived in Turkey I was nervous because of all the propaganda we have been fed about the dreaded Muslim, but the reality that greeted me was 180 degrees opposite to those fears. I was meet by a friendly and peaceful people.

I learned that the Muslim religion holds the belief that if one invites a stranger into their house and shares food and drink with that person that 10 blessing shall come back to them. I have shared food and drink inside many Muslim homes, been invited to wedding celebrations, and taken part in many 'bayram' festivals. I have alway been made to feel welcomed and cared for. They assume I am Christian (it is not discussed, just accepted), but they tell me Jesus was a great and holy man, and they speak of him with great respect and reverence. He is not recognize as the Son of God, but their acceptance of Christianity is far greater than our western acceptance for Allah and their religious beliefs.

On weekends I like to hike in the nearby mountains. Turks also like to picnic at this time, and on dozens of occasions I have tried to politely pass a family of Turks sitting on a blanket enjoying their 'chi' and pastries without disturbing them, but every time I have been waved-over, invited to come and join them even when we can not speak to each other. They are poor as 'church mice', yet whatever they have is eagerly shared with great satisfaction on their part when I accept an orange or a glass of tea.

In five years there I have seen one Turk 'under the influence' of alcohol. I have never seen a fight. I leave my boat unlocked in the marina as do most of the boaters as theft is almost non-existent. I would have no hesitation to walk alone at night in any of the towns where I have stayed or visited.

It is true that in public women and men do not socialize together, yet I see smiling faces from both groups and have never seen women or children oppressed or abused. On the contrary,the family unit from grandparents down to newborns seems the highest priority.

I have not become a 'Muslim lover', and gone over to the 'dark side', but rather have seen a poor but peaceful people that completely accept ' a Christian' in their homeland, and have made me welcomed. These real Muslim people that I have met do not want war, and they do not hate us, westerners. In fact they seems to have very similar goals to us - to live each and every day in peace and without fear.

Leaving Ft. Lauderdale so many years ago,marked the end of television and MSM for me. The world and the peoples I have experienced are vastly different from the thinking from whence I came. We were first taught to hate the 'Krauts-Nazi's-Germans', then the 'Japs' and the 'Commie-Russians', and for the last number of years, the 'Towel-Headed Muslims', yet as the war vet says in his youtube vid. above, only a very small percentage of Americans are benefiting from these wars and conflicts. I believe we are being manipulated purely for the benefit of the wealthy. We are killing people and we are being killed ourselves to steal the assets of other people's countries, and to the benefit of whom, exactly?

This is my truth, without prejudice, and I am left with the feeling that real change, discussion and progress are more possible with a smile and helping hand rather than radioactive depleted uranium weapons.

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

John99,

If you're familiar with Turkish history at all, you aught to know that before Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, that nation was as warlike as any of the others, and they are affluent today because of Ataturks idealization and merger between western values and secular principles.

Perhaps one of the biggest steps he took was promoting literacy, which is the enemy of bigots and fascists everywhere.
Turkiye is perhaps one of the least "Islamic" Muslim nations you could site, and their pursuit of civil justice and peace should be emulated by any Muslim country that wants to be taken seriously.

Maybe you should take a trip to Saudi Arabia (which is the big financier of Islam abroad) and relay your experiences there (where you can be put to death for forecasting weather, because it's "practicing sorcery").
Politics influence what we allow ourselves to say and think, but when we reflect on who Islam victimizes, it's clear that Muslims suffer as much or more than anyone else at the hands of a bunch of superstitious barbarians that believe any deviation from the 7th century interpretation of the Koran is evil.

Apart from Turkiye, we can examine nations like Somalia, Iran, Pakistan, Syria and Saudi Arabia; all of which are a bunch of bigoted xenophobes who believe it's "ok" to stone women who fail to cover themselves entirely, murder homosexuals because they are evil and see no harm in lying to or "slaughtering like a bull in the market" the Kafir (Non-believer) who is no better than an animal.

Surely, these values do not demand respect.
They isolate and demonize human beings in a way that should bring fierce retaliation from the civilized world in the West, as well as from nations like Turkiye.

As intelligent, rational human beings who are capable of co-existing with both fatih and logic, it's our responsibility to see that we don't allow the world to implode into literal hatred over a puritanical form of theocracy that literally demands its followers to take the world at the tip of a sword.

Or God (or whomever you choose to believe in) forbid we end up like Daniel Pearl, Nick Berg, the poor children who lost their lives at Beslan, the innocents who lost their lives at Bolshoi, those unfortunate enough to be found Jewish or Christian in Mumbai, or those caught in the violent crossroads of a Servant of Allah in Fort Hood, Texas.

Here is what we are in Islams own words:
http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/kafir/

Cheers,

Aaron

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

Aaron,

Why does the House of Saud still rule Saudi Arabia?   How about Mohammad Mosaddegh's overthrow in Iraq?  These events were done with the help of the west.  Maybe if the west would not have tried to keep pro-western leaders in power all over the middle east, at the expense of the local population, we would be looking at different a different political and religious landscape in the area.  Maybe we are partially responsible that there are not more moderate muslims in the world today.

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

John99 -

Thanks for that post.  Nothing like real life experiences to shed light on different areas.

That said, you did not live in Turkey under Shari'a Law.  You did not live in Turkey under strict wahabbism.  Nicholas Berg DID live (for a while) in a country under Shari'a Law and that didn't turn out too well for him.

Your experiences certainly give hope that the violent actions of a minority clinging to a centuries old dogma of hatred and intolerance can be overcome.  The thundering silence following attacks and murders committed by radicals from the rest of the so-called 'moderate' Muslim world is troubling.  I get the sense they are doing nothing and waiting to see which side "wins" so they can say after the fact "See, we were with you all along."

There is a tremendous amount of hope in your very positive experiences.  We can only hope that the leader of Islam's equivalent to Martin Luther's Reformation comes from Turkey.  Perhaps lead by one of the people you were fortunate enough to have met.

Measure people by what they do, not what they say.  It's long past time for true leaders in the Muslim world to stand up and "do" something about the radical faction - it's far to easy to just say the words.

Until then, I will remain hopeful, yet skeptical.

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

Dear Aaron,

My oh my, if what you say is true, we sure do have a lot of people to kill - to bring them around to our way of civilized existence. We don't stone women, we just allow over a million US school children to be homeless, and 39 million Americans to paste food stamps to be able to eat.

Let's see, the civilized US is the only country to use nuclear bombs in war, and on civilian populations at that, meaning a quarter of a million innocent men, women and children were targeted and deliberately annihilated - not to mention those who died horrible and painful deaths in the years afterwards from radiation burns, leukemia. etc. etc.. If we are so civilized why did we target the innocents and not military sites?

Since 1945, the US has invaded over 50 countries, dropped bomb on 30 of them, where many of those countries had democratically elected governments previously in place, again making me question our definition of being 'civilized'.

But ok, Muslim women are being stoned to death. I wonder how many have been killed by stoning verses how many woman (and children) have died from our aggression in Iraq and Afghanistan. I think we are still liberating those people to our sense of justice, our sense of right verse wrong, and 1.3 million dead Iraqi's can be justified as mere collateral damage along the road to that democracy, freedom and set of civilized western values (glory, hallelujah).

Or dare I mention the 4,000 tones of radioactive depleted uranium weapons we have dropped on Iraq and Afghanistan, which have poisoned forever sources of drinking water and farm land, which will kill and deform future generations to come. How civilized is all that?

But wait, tis Christmas Eve. A time to be joyful, a time for sharing, a time for giving.

Maybe it is a time for loving?

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy
Aaron Moyer wrote:

where you can be put to death for forecasting weather, because it's "practicing sorcery"

It's Saudi, it's gonna be hot dusty and sunny, that's not sorcery, it's common sense, sheesh! I must be a sorcerer then Laughing

Now, I'm coming down on neither side, I've been up close and personal with extremist Christians, Muslims, and Seculars, and there's one thing in common, they're extreme, and any deviation from their view of their life "path" is grounds for retribution.

I've also been up close and personal with non-extremist Christians, Muslims, and Seculars, and there's many things in common. It's the extremist that's the issue not the religion per se terrible crimes have been perpetrated regardless of the spirituality or lack thereof from all "sects" except perhaps Buddhists (although it might be argued that since Budo is an extension of Zen buddhism, that this too has been at fault). Yes Islam appears to be more prone to this, but that could just be current perception, it's difficult to properly and objectively evaluate, because in general the huge crimes of other religions and philosophies scatter back over a thousand years, from Saddam Hussein to before Ramses II, and all others of a similar nature.

Now I agree with Aaron that Turkiye is the exception not the norm, and it is directly attributable to Ataturk, much like the US ideal is attributable to Jefferson, Madison, Franklin or your Founding Father of choice. It's also very secular, unlike many other Islamic nations, so, there is that separation of theology and normal politics, (and then people wonder why I'm highly concerned about the US mixing religion and politics).

As far as the more extreme Islamic nations, well it once again comes down to interpretation of "what is meant" in the Qur'an, differing sects interpret differently, the Sunni's and Sufi's for instance Sunni's have jihad bis saif (Jihad by the Sword) which is what we most commonly think of as a "jihad" however there are another 3, Jihad by the heart (sometimes referred to as the Greater Jihad, which is escape from the devil and pursuit of truth), Jihad by the hand (fighting injustice and oppression), Jihad by the tongue (which would be like a Christian Missionary). Sufi's are Gnostics, and concentrate primarily on the Greater Jihad, to become Abdal (those who get replaced) the lesser jihad bis saif is very low in importance. Shi'a (Shi'ites) are the most aggressive and take at more face value Jihad being struggle against outsiders.

However it's very easy to paint everyone with the same brush when you use broad strokes, yes Saudi, Iran, Syria, Afghanistan,  Somalia and many others are extreme in comparison to the US, but part of that is because of a lack of separation of church and state, crimes are in most cases sins or religious transgressions, not real crimes (theft and murder being exceptions). However that's how the country functions, and it has no formal democracy, for comparison check out Europe in 1400-1500 and compare and contrast. However the people aren't that much different than you or I would be other than they've been terrorized all of their lives, have lived in fear of being informed on to the authorities (either political or religious) and obviously they know what the prevailing authoritarian feelings are. That's not necessarily a Muslim thing or an Arab thing, just a human thing that is the result of a tyrannical government.

Unfortunately they're likely thinking that all Americans are White Imperialist Zionists who are out to subjugate all the Arabic countries who don't hold a power over them (i.e. Saudi, and the UAE), and they'd similarly be wrong.

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

Unfortunately Turkey appears to be trending toward Islamic intolerance in their popularly elected leaders. The Turkish military is responsible for keeping Turkey relatively tolerant (as a government, not refering to individual citizens living under the government). I just saw a documentary on PBS that focused on the Orthodox patriarch living in Istanbul. Christianity as an institution is not tolerated very well based on that film. Turkey closed down the Orthodox school so no more priests could be trained. By Turkish law, the Orthodox patriarch next elected must be a Turkish citizen and, without the Orthodox Christian school, the supply of these will die out in the next 20 or 30 years. So, while Turkish citizens individually may be very tolerant and welcoming, even the "secular" Turkish government is intolerant of Christianity.

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

John99 thanks for starting this thread.  Brave and patriotic Americans are becoming chronically ill, handicapped and killed in unconstitutional, unnecessary and unholy wars.  Do we have any idea what our objectives are or what victory will look like; how will we know when the wars are over?

My personal opinion is that all major religions share a lot of blame for bigoted wars.  Muslims don't seem any worse or better from my perspective.  But I think it would be accurate to say that we are the aggressors in occupying their lands and attacking the outer circle nations.

History shows that our WMD claims against Iraq were falsified; a deception perpetrated at the highest levels of the U.S. and the U.K. Governments.  I've read that over 1,300,000 Iraqis were killed as a result of the bogus "preemptive war."  Perhaps the bigger crime is that there has been no public investigation; no one is held accountable - isn't this a massive crime against humanity?

We have been led to believe that we have "religious" enemies intent on killing us and in response, we have given up many of our freedoms and virtually destroyed our own economy through war debt.  The wars are as suicidal as any belt bomb.

Our enemies are not in the deserts of Iraq or the mountains of Afghanistan.  Our real enemies are in Washington and on Wall Street. 

Larry

 

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy
DrKrbyLuv wrote:

My personal opinion is that all major religions share a lot of blame for bigoted wars.  Muslims don't seem any worse or better from my perspective.  But I think it would be accurate to say that we are the aggressors in occupying their lands and attacking the outer circle nations.

Larry - Good thought provoking post. 

Well you did qualify your statement as an opinion.  Not sure I agree with you though - after Googling, I couldn't find one article about Southern Baptists/Lutherans/Mennonites/Anglicans/Methodists/Presbyterians/etc. conducting car bombings of mosques in America.

And as far as us being the aggressors, you bet.  Or would you rather have to worry about IEDs on the streets of Pittsburgh before you approve retaliatory action?

DrKrbyLuv wrote:

History shows that our WMD claims against Iraq were falsified; a deception perpetrated at the highest levels of the U.S. and the U.K. Governments.  I've read that over 1,300,000 Iraqis were killed as a result of the bogus "preemptive war."  Perhaps the bigger crime is that there has been no public investigation; no one is held accountable - isn't this a massive crime against humanity?

Not quite.  History has shown that no WMDs were found.  Anecdotal evidence would strongly suggest intelligence information was very poorly interpreted, but you and I both know that nothing exists to historically "prove" WMD claims were intentionally falsified.  Exaggerated?  Yes, and a horrible pretense for committing troops, but deliberately falsified?  I think not.  Again, the line between screwing up intel and falsifying intel is ill defined.

It's a sad truth, but iIt will only be a crime against humanity if we lose the war, as history is written by the winner.  I'm closer to your side on this one than you think.

DrKrbyLuv wrote:

Our enemies are not in the deserts of Iraq or the mountains of Afghanistan.

Some of them are.

DrKrbyLuv wrote:

Our real enemies are in Washington and on Wall Street.

On this we are in 100% agreement.  Just not for the same reasons.

Larry, have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.  I look forward to more discussions in the coming year.

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy
Quote:

Maybe we are partially responsible that there are not more moderate muslims in the world today.

Or maybe it's because Islam is a radical faith?

Quote:

and 39 million Americans to paste food stamps to be able to eat.

Are you insinuating that there is no poverty in Islamic countries, or saying that our social programs are inhuman?
Your logic is not making sense to me.

Quote:

Let's see, the civilized US is the only country to use nuclear bombs in war, and on civilian populations at that, meaning a quarter of a million innocent men, women and children were targeted and deliberately annihilated - not to mention those who died horrible and painful deaths in the years afterwards from radiation burns, leukemia. etc. etc.. If we are so civilized why did we target the innocents and not military sites?

And the Inca tore beating hearts out of the chests of their human sacrifices.
Can you see where perhaps mistakes lead to greater wisdom of the folly of barbarism?
I'm not pretending we have a benevolent government that knows all when it comes to civility. But compared to Saudi Arabia, I think I'd prefer our brand of savagery.

John99, your historical perspective is lacking.
Do some research on Afghanistan, and specifically into the humantarian efforts we attempted in the 1970's before the Soviet occupation.
If you'd prefer to side with the sadistic bully rather than the garden variety, your choice.
But you aught to educate yourself on exactly what Islam has in store for you, should you decide that yielding to it without submitting to its tenents is more intelligent than standing for your own Society... regardless of how "uncivilized" it might be.

Cheers,

Aaron 

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Gungnir
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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy
John99 wrote:

Let's see, the civilized US is the only country to use nuclear bombs in war, and on civilian populations at that, meaning a quarter of a million innocent men, women and children were targeted and deliberately annihilated - not to mention those who died horrible and painful deaths in the years afterwards from radiation burns, leukemia. etc. etc.. If we are so civilized why did we target the innocents and not military sites?

Indeed the US did, against an enemy that had used chemical and biological weapons on a civilian population itself, and routinely performed vivisection on unanesthetized prisoners of war. In total an estimated 17,530,000 civilians were killed between 1937-1945, of which 8.4 million were non-military casualties(unarmed defenseless civilians), and 9.13 million were collateral damage. Military casualties were 3.22 million.

Now that doesn't mean that having two nukes dropped on them was fair, or the right thing to do, however, this wasn't an innocent country by any means. However total casualties were up to 200,000 for Hiroshima up to 1950, followed by 89 Leukemia and 339 solid cancers, and Nagasaki was 80,000 by the end of 1945 (no figures exist for long term at Nagasaki). Unfortunately some survivors of Hiroshima were taken to Nagasaki and Tsutomu Yamaguchi survived both attacks, he's 93, and was 3 km from the Bombs ground zero in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Now as to 50 countries invaded, I'm not sure I agree with that number, Vietnam was at the request of the Government so couldn't be an invasion, Korea with UN approval, here's a full list http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html, quite a few, but it includes everything from the congressional record, including deployments on US soil and CIA actions too. Invasion has quite a specific meaning, military actions I can agree with, but not invasions.

As for people getting stoned in Saudi, well it's their law, I don't agree with it, but until they change it,then that's the way it is.

I also don't agree with being in Iraq or Afghanistan in the first place, but unfortunately they're so screwed up at the moment, that withdrawal might lead to a bigger humanitarian and later world issues than staying there. However using the 1.3M figure from the Lancet as the estimated civilian casualty rate is sensationalist, why select the highest? It does nothing to further your argument, and appears to be used as an emotive appeal for "sanity". Figures for civilian casualties range from 95k-103k from the IBC to the 1.3M you state from the Lancet, which happens to be 601k violent (caused by actual action) of which 31% are due to the Coalition (186k) and the remainder from general lawlessnes, and infrastructure break down, so not directly caused by the military forces, but due to secondary factors caused by the war itself. So even using the Lancet figure it's misrepresented and more than 50% are not even adjudged as collateral damage by the source of your number.

DU is radioactive, and so are many things you find around the place, it's an alpha emitter, so its range is limited but it's also a heavy metal and toxic (not as toxic as arsenic or mercury). However it does have some radioactivity ~0.05 Bq/g, but it does have a long half life 10^9 years, is it right using it, it's debatable, more from the toxicity than the radioactivity, but then "normal" munitions use lead which is a heavy metal and is toxic, and mercury too in the primers. X-Rays also are have carcinogenic and mutagenic issues too and tritium or Radium luminous watchdials are as well, you're exposed to radioactivity on a daily basis, and you've evolved to cope with that and higher, Tsutomu Yamaguchi 93 years old above who I'm pretty sure received a much higher dose in both Hiroshima and Nagasaki than anyone living in an area contaminated with DU would receive in a lifetime. A lot of the concerns with DU stem from the fact that the media see's that its "Uranium" and thinks it goes into nuclear weapons, well not really, except perhaps as a moderator, U238 (99.8% of DU) doesn't, which is why it's used for kinetic energy penetrators.

Finally to answer your first point, yes it is a national tragedy that these things have happened, while the banksters have received billion dollar bail outs, some of which has almost certainly gone into their end of year bonuses.

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Doug
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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

Our history in the Persian Gulf for the past couple decades has produced only one outcome that we can consider anything close to a victory, chasing Saddam out of Kuwait.  We should have realized since then that we aren't going to "defeat" any hostile gov't in the sense we beat Germany and Japan in WWII, or clean out the radical Islamists.  There is only one reason we keep fighting these winless wars, oil.  Our enormous military presence in the Gulf is not geared toward any humantiarian or political goals.  They have been shown to be ineffective and even counterproductive in those goals.  The only useful purpose for our overwhelming military power is to secure oil facilities and lines should the locals decide to shut off the spigot.  Our military presence there is ideally suited for that one purpose and our continuing wars provide an excuse to have two or three carrier groups roaming the region.

The focus on religion is a convenient distraction for our real purpose in the region.  There are other abhorent religious groups, including other radical Islamists, around the world that we are leaving alone.  But, they aren't sitting on huge oil reserves.  Keep your eyes on the prize.

Doug

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

Dogs wrote:

And as far as us being the aggressors, you bet.  Or would you rather have to worry about IEDs on the streets of Pittsburgh before you approve retaliatory action?

Hi Dogs, in Pittsburgh we will soon have millions of potholes on our roads, they are almost as bad as IEDs.  My wife has blown out two tires and damaged an expensive rim in the past 6 years!

Hope everyone has a merry Christmas and happy holidays!

Larry

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy
John99 wrote:

A four minute youtube and worth the time.

 

John99 thanks for the great posts and video snippet. Also, thanks to jager06 and others for thoughtful replies.

I really didn’t get too much emphasis on the Muslim perspective from the video, although clearly that was a subtext. For any American citizen it is at the very least confusing to “keep up” with the demonization of the enemy de jour. We nuke Japan and two decades later are buying their cars like they’re going out of style. Iranians take hostages and a few years later they are our best friends. Now, they’re out again. Same with the Afghans.

The first step in ensuring that there are people to take up the arms shown in the video is for a military command to create an “indoctrination” wherein the enemy, whoever they are this week, is demonized. This demonization must be airtight, it should have historical relevance, and above all, be able to be “sold” to a wide range of people with vastly different intellectual capacities.

This is the single most important objective of the military command in preparing and managing troops to engage in a conflict where lives will be lost.

The second objective is to create rationalization, using the aforementioned demonization as a construct. Here, when soldiers engage in bombing, missile attacks, hand to hand combat or killing in any way, the rationalization mechanisms can be applied by individuals to reconcile acts that we know as humans are despicable and inherently wrong.

There is evidence in several of the posts in this thread of these tactics.

There are cases in history where such tactics were entirely justified, and cases where these tactics were abused.

Regarding the Muslim faith and the supposed intent of the roughly 1 billion participants to annihilate those that do not share their beliefs, well, there is sure is a lot of propaganda to further this conclusion. On the other hand, there is another belief system that attributes the violent acts of a few to be non representative of the vast majority of the Muslim community, and also notes that extremists exist in all denominations. This belief system could also be construed as propaganda. It is not possible for both conclusions to be correct, so one is right and the other wrong.

It is up to the individual to decide which is which.

Perhaps the discussion should not center around trying to prove or disprove which belief system is correct, or more correct, than the other, perhaps we should look instead at motive. Just as in a murder trial, if a motive can be established, than often clarity can be applied to the actual perpetrators of the “crime”

In my view, this is one of the central points in the video, the assertion that there is profiteering and manipulation of the facts by corporations and Elites, at the expense of the working class and perpetrated against another country’s working class. How or even if this applies to the Koran is to me, a secondary (if that) consideration and a diversion from what is really important here.

As Charles Hugh Smith states over and over in his excellent book Survival +…..

Ask Cui Bono- to whose benefit?

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy
Doug wrote:

The focus on religion is a convenient distraction for our real purpose in the region.  There are other abhorent religious groups, including other radical Islamists, around the world that we are leaving alone.  But, they aren't sitting on huge oil reserves.  Keep your eyes on the prize.

This nails it of course. Oil is running out much faster than advertised ( http://www.peakprosperity.com/blog/its-really-bad-oil-reserves-intention... ) and are the real reason behind the wars.

In my European eyes, both the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq are morally wrong, and at least borders state terrorism. Even my EU has troops in Afghanistan now Frown. Fortunately, at least the former British premier, Tony Blair, is now getting some heat for his decision to invade Iraq. Hope they put him on trial. (What would be the legal venue in the US to put high ranking officials on trial? Is there one?)

Regarding Islam.. I have grown up in a suburb in Sweden with lots of moslem immigrants (every war you Americans start, results in a stream of refugees to Europe), and there are as many kinds of those than there are christians. I have only met one that actually prayed daily and had a beard. Studies in Norway says that about 18% of the moslems there pray, or attend a religios ceremony at least once a week. So sure, there are countries still in the medieval era in some sense, but most moslems are relatively secularized.

 

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V
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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

I would suggest to the moderators that this thread be relegated to the

Controversial topic asylum.

There is way too much discussion of religion.

There has not been one Muslim posting explaining what Islam is all about

instead we get opinion from people with little real knowledge of Islam

This thread has been hijacked beyond recognition and the point of the video lost.

Last but not least none of this has anything to do with the three E'S

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V
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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

In an attempt to get this thread back on track I offer the following.

Stunning Statistics About the War That Everyone Should Know

Jeremy Scahill
Counterpunch
December 23, 2009

A hearing in Sen. Claire McCaskill’s Contract Oversightsubcommittee on contracting in Afghanistan has highlighted some important statistics that provide a window into the extent to which the Obama administration has picked up the Bush-era war privatization baton and sprinted with it. Overall, contractors now comprise a whopping 69% of the Department of Defense’s total workforce, “the highest ratio of contractors to military personnel in US history.” That’s not in one war zone—that’s the Pentagon in its entirety.

In Afghanistan , the Obama administration blows the Bush administration out of the privatized water. According to a memo[PDF] released by McCaskill’s staff,

“From June 2009 to September 2009, there was a 40% increase in Defense Department contractors in Afghanistan . During the same period, the number of armed private security contractors working for the Defense Department in Afghanistan doubled, increasing from approximately 5,000 to more than 10,000.”

At present, there are 104,000 Department of Defense contractors in Afghanistan . According to a report this week from the Congressional Research Service, as a result of the coming surge of 30,000 troops inAfghanistan, there may be up to 56,000 additional contractors deployed. But here is another group of contractors that often goes unmentioned: 3,600 State Department contractors and 14,000 USAID contractors. That means that the current total US force in Afghanistan is approximately 189,000 personnel (68,000 US troops and 121,000 contractors). And remember, that’s right now. And that, according to McCaskill, is a conservative estimate. A year from now, we will likely see more than 220,000 US-funded personnel on the ground in Afghanistan .

The US has spent more than $23 billion on contracts in Afghanistan since 2002. By next year, the number of contractors will have doubled since 2008 when taxpayers funded over $8 billion in Afghanistan-related contracts.

Despite the massive number of contracts and contractors in Afghanistan , oversight is utterly lacking. “The increase in Afghanistan contracts has not seen a corresponding increase in contract management and oversight,” according to McCaskill’s briefing paper. “In May 2009, DCMA [Defense Contract Management Agency] Director Charlie Williams told the Commission on Wartime Contracting that as many as 362 positions for Contracting Officer’s Representatives (CORs) in Afghanistan were currently vacant.”

A former USAID official, Michael Walsh, the former director of USAID’s Office of Acquisition and Assistance and Chief Acquisition Officer, told the Commission that many USAID staff are “administering huge awards with limited knowledge of or experience with the rules and regulations.” According to one USAID official, the agency is “sending too much money, too fast with too few people looking over how it is spent.” As a result, the agency does not “know … where the money is going.”

The Obama administration is continuing the Bush-era policy of hiring contractors to oversee contractors. According to the McCaskill memo:

In Afghanistan , USAID is relying on contractors to provide oversight of its large reconstruction and development projects. According to information provided to the Subcommittee, International Relief and Development (IRD) was awarded a five-year contract in 2006 to oversee the $1.4 billion infrastructure contract awarded to a joint venture of the Louis Berger Group and Black and Veatch Special Projects. USAID has also awarded a contract Checci and Company to provide support for contracts in Afghanistan .

The private security industry and the US government have pointed to the Synchronized Predeployment and Operational Tracker(SPOT) as evidence of greater government oversight of contractor activities. But McCaskill’s subcommittee found that system utterly lacking, stating: “The Subcommittee obtained current SPOT data showing that there are currently 1,123 State Department contractors and no USAID contractors working in Afghanistan .” Remember, there are officially 14,000 USAID contractors and the official monitoring and tracking system found none of these people and less than half of the State Department contractors.

As for waste and abuse, the subcommittee says that the Defense Contract Audit Agency identified more than $950 million in questioned and unsupported costs submitted by Defense Department contracts for work in Afghanistan . That’s 16% of the total contract dollars reviewed.

Research related links

  1. Pentagon Pouring Your Money Into Afghanistan: Are They Preparing for a Very Long War?
  2. US actually increasing personnel in Iraq: More contractors, fewer troops
  3. Contractors reap 85 bln dlrs from Iraq war: US report
  4. Statistics show Icelandic men have longest life expectancy
  5. Bush Dismantles Economic Programs for Small Business as Economy Continues Downward Spiral
  6. Why are Docs From the Bailout Being Redacted?
  7. Treasury Blacks Out Key Parts of Private Bailout Contracts
  8. Clinton’s stunning lack of grace
  9. Money From Iraqi Jobs Program Siphoned to Insurgents
  10. Pentagon Can’t Account for $15 Billion
  11. Cybersecurity Chief Resigns
  12. Congress Details Massive Use of Private Contractors in Iraq

 

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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

Some of these comments in here make me ashamed to be posting in this thread.

Honest. That's heartfelt.

Anyone ever bother asking what we did to piss off a billion people?

Anyone here that's worried about "IED's in Pittsburgh", are you just one of the people that pays lip service to

"land of the brave".

"home of the free"?

Is that a cheap cliche that's uttered when convenient, but in reality is nothing more to you than a hollowed-out, feel-good slogan?

Shut the nation down, put the cameras up, and bankrupt the nation to go get "the evil doers". (Looking at our foreign policy is not an option because we're Merican's dammit!. Gawd Bless Merica' *Swig of beer, belch, high five*).

Ask yourself this. What have we, or should I say "that which is done in our name", done to earn the absolute bloodthirtsty scorn of a billion people? No. Don't look at them. Stop for a second. Look back at us.

Ask yourself this. If China "liberated" your state, and in the act your wife, or your daughter were killed, that is, to quote the sterile euphemism of the day, "became collateral damage", what would you do? What would you do if Russia overthrew our parlimentary government and installed a Shah so that they could continue the 80/20 profit split (they get 80) from pillaging our natural resources.

Or a blood pact that allows a Royal family to own a nation so that we can ensure the petrodollar cycle, a strong dollar, and trillions in profits?

At the expense of an entire population.

Wow. Reflexive, mindless babble. CNN has done it's job, and done it well.

We're the bestest, most wonderful nation in history. God is jealous that America came after the Garden of Eden! We're blameless. These people are whacked and want to kill us because THEY HATE OUR FREEDOMS!

Yeah, OK. Yell

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Doug
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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

V

Great post.

The privatization of military functions is a national disgrace, and a very expensive one.  I would love to see a CBO or GAO audit of what having all those contractors over there is costing us.  All of their functions were performed well by relatively low paid military in the past.  Now we are paying premium prices to contractors/mercs to do the same work.  And, there is little accountability.  And it is a drain on the military to train the military personnel to do a job, then watch them jump to Blackwater, et.al. when their enlistments are up.  Yet, it is still the military people who are taking the bulk of casualties while their families' lives are being disrupted by repeated deployments to the middle east.

If tptb want to have a war, they should damn well institute a draft.  Then they will find out how popular it is with the citizenry.

Doug

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pinecarr
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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

John99, thank you for sharing the powerful video clip, and for starting this thread.  It is a real debate about ideas and beliefs, and it is a true education and  privelege to be able to follow a discussion of this caliber on such topics here. 

I love ideas, and the ideas and beliefs you are debating are key ones in shaping the world we live in.  I still struggle to figure out where my beliefs fall in this debate- I hate seeing other people in another country (as well as my own) torn apart by a questionable war.  And yet I also don't want to be naive about the world we (may) live in. And that can be interpreted from the perspective of more than just the us-them war mentality.  I've lived long enough to know that ideals we wish were true (or believe "should be" true) and reality are frequently two diffferent things.  So I truly do appreciate the opportunity to "hear" opposing sides intelligently debate both sides, as it gives me rich insights to use in further examining my own beliefs.  -You just don't get that kind of quality and openess in intellectual debates on topics of importance in a lot of places these days. 

best,

pinecarr

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docmims
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Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

JOBS, JOBS, JOBS.  That is this administration's priority.  Too bad they are in Afghanistan.

I think the war will end this year when the world quits lending us money to fight it.

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John99
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Posts: 490
Re: Amazing speech by war vet - end the war save the economy

You are very welcome Pinecarr, and it's nice to share awakenings with other seekers. Seeing as it's Christmas Day, I'll share a little, Hesse, for those of us who are questioning our, 'grasp of truth'. Peace be with you.

As every flower fades and as all youth
Departs, so life at every stage,
So every virtue, so our grasp of truth,
Blooms in its day and may not last forever.
Since life may summon us at every age
Be ready, heart, for parting, new endeavor,
Be ready bravely and without remorse
To find new light that old ties cannot give.
In all beginnings dwells a magic force
For guarding us and helping us to live.
Serenely let us move to distant places
And let no sentiments of home detain us.

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