The Alternative Healthcare Thread

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The Alternative Healthcare Thread

 

Hi, Folks;

As we go forward into an uncertain future, one of the concerns on my mind is the accessibility of healthcare.  Many of you know that I have a strong preference for avoiding mainstream medical care, whenever possible, largely because I feel the medical model is flawed, and safeguards, in the U.S., are corrupted. 

First, let me say that I don't want this thread to be about whether alternative or mainstream healthcare is superior or preferable.  But I do want to create a forum where folks can share information about remedies they have used with success, links to websites with useful products or information, and other useful references. 

To set the stage, first I'd like to make a blanket disclaimer for anyone who posts here  (Sorry . . . the program doesn't allow me to use the customary small font):  Unless otherwise stated, it will be assumed that you are not a healthcare professional, and any information posted cannot be construed as medical advice.  The burden to verify any claims and to check the literature for side effects and contraindications is on the reader, not the poster, regardless of the poster's qualifications.  Neither this website, nor any specific poster shall be liable for the consequences of using information from this thread.  All of that having been said, it would be useful for posters to state their healthcare background, if any, so that any information posted can be viewed in context.

OK . . . That's over . . . .

So, although I recognize that every thread has a life of it's own, I'd like to see this thread focus on specific information, and perhaps essays describing unique alternative healthcare disciplines.  Information that is primarily within the realm of mainstream medicine is also fair game, if the therapy or treatment can be done with easily obtained materials or over-the-counter-drugs.  Complex mainstream treatments that require professional management or prescription drugs should probably be handled between each individual and his physician(s), or through the back lines, for legal reasons. and, because part of my motive in starting this thread is to build an arsenal of information about healthcare treatments that can be used even if society, as we know it, is disrupted.  Information about alternative treatments that are usually performed by a professional, but that do not require a complex healthcare setting for administration, would also be welcome.  (Acupuncture springs to mind.)

So, I'm going to kick this off with a question for our members, as I am a bit laid up, and in need of advice, in the next post.

 

 

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Alternative Antiinflammatory, Herbal or Other Therapy

 

Hi, all;

Well, here's the other shoe  . . .  Who knows what causes these things, but, without any prior warning, I woke up with lower back pain yesterday morning, and it's gotten nothing but worse.  First ice, then heat, have given me temporary relief, but have not stayed the progression.  I have some experience with back troubles (a tad of instability at S5/L1), and know the usual postural precautions, but spasm and inflammation are my closest companions at the moment.  As I type, I am standing with my laptop on a makeshift stand, as sitting seems to exacerbate the instability. 

I was about to head to my library and study up on herbal antiinflammatories, and realized that I might try to throw this question out there for any of our resident herbalists, or just regular folks who have been using home remedies.  Any information, whether herbal or other therapeutic strategies, would be most appreciated.  My garden is in full swing, and I can't be on my can when I should be at my canner . .  .

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Re: Alternative Antiinflammatory, Herbal or Other Therapy

 Well I am anxious to hear what advise you get .    We danced way to long last night and  am toooo old to keep up with the younger ones .  It  always uses muscles I  do not use regularly !!!  I have a real catch in my getalong  this morning . Buggers it stinks getting old .... not wiser that is for sure .

 

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Re: Alternative Antiinflammatory, Herbal or Other Therapy
Diana wrote:

 Well I am anxious to hear what advise you get .    We danced way to long last night and  am toooo old to keep up with the younger ones .  It  always uses muscles I  do not use regularly !!!  I have a real catch in my getalong  this morning . Buggers it stinks getting old .... not wiser that is for sure .

I am not old . . . doggonit!    Just crippled, today . . . . I'll go back to being old tomorrow . . . .

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Re: The Alternative Healthcare Thread

 Hey C1.   Gerson Therapy will kill cancer and Tumeric will help with back pain.  about 5 to 6 grams a day.  

 

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Low Back Pain

 Hi C1oudfire,

While your description of your ailment was all to brief for an accurate assessment, I would like to suggest that the most likely cause (by statistical average) of your low back pain is trigger points in the Quadratus Lumborum muscle that is found deep in the low back region. For more information about trigger points, please visit my wife's website www.painwhisperer.com. I suggest that you start here, and then use our Pain Mapper to identify and learn more about the specific trigger points that may be involved with your condition. Also, I would suggest that you avoid apply ice, as this aggravates trigger points.

Hope this helps.

(Edit: I'm not trying to sell you anything, just providing some info)

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Back Pain

FWIW (and admittedly I'm a biased witness here), learning the concepts taught in Pilates -- and making it a regular part of your fitness regimen -- will (in the absence of a serious structural issue [herniated/ruptured disc et al.] and sometimes even in spite of such) alleviate or entirely cure one of low back pain.  Assuming you find a competent instructor and are diligent in your practice, Pilates will add decades of pain-free daily function to your body.  In our practice, we've had instances of near-miraculous recovery amongst clients w/back issues.  YMMV.  

Viva -- Sager

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Re: Back Pain

Sager,

I agree with you by and large but while Pilates is an excellent fitness and treatment modality, with all due respect, your statements may be a bit overly optimistic.  Been there, done it, have taught courses on the subject matter (at the undergraduate, graduate, and post graduate levels), written articles and chapters in textbooks, etc.  Qi gong, tai chi, hatha yoga, Trager Approach, Alexander Method, Feldenkraise Method, etc., etc., could also be effective but are all generalized, not specific and prescriptive, approaches.  All are good, none are a cure-all.  All have their strengths and weaknesses.  I've seen many, many successes and some failures with all of these and other approaches and combinations thereof.

A primary problem with this subject area and that back pain is lumped into a general category by far too many health professionals including physicians.  In fact, the sources of back pain are so varied and multitudinous that to advocate any one intervention for back pain without more precisely knowing its source (be that intervention surgery, injections, or conservative treatment including movement or manual therapy, medication, nutrition, psychology, magnets, chicken entrails, or what have you) is a disservice to the public (although the lay public thinks of it in the same way, unfortunately).  That's why a thorough differential diagnosis by someone who fully understands the biochemical, biomechanical, neurophysiological, and psychoemotional components of spinal pain is important before making any blanket recommendations.

    

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Re: Alternative Antiinflammatory, Herbal or Other Therapy

C1oudire,

See my comment to Sager.  Sight unseen, unless the person is Edgar Cayce, no one will no for certain what type of intervention would be best for your back pain.  However, based on the information that you provided, if I had to make a guess, I would guess your low back pain is discogenic in origin, brought on by sustained and/or repeated flexion with gardening, and this is the most accessible available source that, IMHO, would provide you with some of the information necessary to self treat your problem.   

http://www.amazon.com/Treat-Your-Back-Robin-McKenzie/dp/0959774661

 

 

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Re: The Alternative Healthcare Thread
JK121 wrote:

 Hey C1.   Gerson Therapy will kill cancer and Tumeric will help with back pain.  about 5 to 6 grams a day.  

 

Hi, JK;

Thanks for the reminder about turmeric.  I'd forgotten about it's role as an antiinflammatory.  I've got a mason jar full of the stuff, but no capsules on hand.  Any suggestions of how I can take it without capsules?  Also, would you recommend divided doses, or a single daily dose? 

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Re: Low Back Pain
JAG wrote:

 Hi C1oudfire,

While your description of your ailment was all to brief for an accurate assessment, I would like to suggest that the most likely cause (by statistical average) of your low back pain is trigger points in the Quadratus Lumborum muscle that is found deep in the low back region. For more information about trigger points, please visit my wife's website www.painwhisperer.com. I suggest that you start here, and then use our Pain Mapper to identify and learn more about the specific trigger points that may be involved with your condition. Also, I would suggest that you avoid apply ice, as this aggravates trigger points.

Hope this helps.

(Edit: I'm not trying to sell you anything, just providing some info)

Hi, Jeff;

After reviewing your links, I can say that it's pretty clear that both the iliopsoas and quadratus lumborum are involved, bilaterally.  On palpation, my husband can clearly follow a vertical muscle along my spine in rocky hard spasm.  Also, any activity on my feet is painful.  My pelvis feels unstable when walking.  But also, I have bilateral pain in the lower abdomen, whose presence is directly related to position and the intensity of back pain.  It occurs simultaneously with muscle spasm type pain in certain positions. 

From past instruction by a highly skilled sports physical therapist, I can detect that my pelvis seems to be slightly rotated posteriorly on the right.  Viewed from the front, the landmarks on my anterior iliac spine are 1/4 to 1/2 inch lower on the right than the left.  If, while looking in the mirror, I make a conscious effort to correct this, I am rewarded with some pain relief, but it is unsustainable d/t the intensity of muscle spasm.  I am normally quite flexible, but my range of motion is limited now, to some degree by pain, but even more so by spasm.  Bending forward is the most severely restricted movement.   

Second to the hot bath, the most useful intervention I've found is laying on a hard surface.  I slept on the floor last night, with lower legs on a stool, all joints at 90 degrees.  I can also lay on either side, on a firm surface, with knees/hips in 90 degree flexion.  Except for the pressure on hips and sacrum (I don't have much padding), I'm relatively comfortable in these positions, after a few minutes. 

Because I can lay on either side, I doubt that the gluteus medius is involved, but my pelvis does feel unstable when walking.  As described on your wife's site, I do find myself supporting my upper body with my arms to avoid pain.

I concur that ice is not useful.  I applied it soon after initial pain onset, and the progression of muscle spasm involvement accelerated from there.  Heat was initially useful, and warm bath or massage yields a temporary partial, but much welcome relief. 

Right now, I'm relatively comfortable, but doped to the gills with Flexeril and ibuprofen, out of desperation.  I disdain both drugs as any kind of long-term solution. I can only hope that this post makes sense . . .

I doubt a disc problem, as I was right as rain until waking up two days ago, and there was no heavy lifting or awkward positions in the period preceding onset.  I did, however, spend more time sitting, than is my usual habit. 

I am impressed with the specificity of your wife's website, and would like to pursue trigger point therapy.

Thank you so much for your response.

 

 

Cloudfire's picture
Cloudfire
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Re: Back Pain
SagerXX wrote:

FWIW (and admittedly I'm a biased witness here), learning the concepts taught in Pilates -- and making it a regular part of your fitness regimen -- will (in the absence of a serious structural issue [herniated/ruptured disc et al.] and sometimes even in spite of such) alleviate or entirely cure one of low back pain.  Assuming you find a competent instructor and are diligent in your practice, Pilates will add decades of pain-free daily function to your body.  In our practice, we've had instances of near-miraculous recovery amongst clients w/back issues.  YMMV.  

Viva -- Sager

 

Hiya, Sager;

Thanks for your response.  Although I know nothing of Pilates, my past experience is that this kind of event (This is much like former problems I've had.) seems to be stabilized, long term, with strengthening muscles groups.  Is this the mode by which Pilates works?  Can you tell me more about it, or steer me to some useful references?

 

 

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Re: The Alternative Healthcare Thread

 

BTW, I really like that folks are making use of the subject line . . . That'll make the thread more searchable for people looking for a specific intervention.

 

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Re: The Alternative Healthcare Thread
C1oudfire wrote:
JK121 wrote:

 Hey C1.   Gerson Therapy will kill cancer and Tumeric will help with back pain.  about 5 to 6 grams a day.  

 

Hi, JK;

Thanks for the reminder about turmeric.  I'd forgotten about it's role as an antiinflammatory.  I've got a mason jar full of the stuff, but no capsules on hand.  Any suggestions of how I can take it without capsules?  Also, would you recommend divided doses, or a single daily dose? 

Hi, again, JK;

Does turmeric retain its antiinflammatory activity after heating?  I can eat scads of it on skillet-fried potatoes . . . .

 

 

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Re: The Alternative Healthcare Thread

 

Hi C1  Divided doses would be better.  I go to iherb.com.  They got the best selection of many natural supplements to heal yourself.  

I personally have not been to the doctors for anything going on 5 yrs now.   I have a HIGH antioxidant diet.  

If Americans took care of themselves and if food industry did not make us sick.  Universal Healthcare would not even be a topic of discussion.  

 

Take care. 

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Herbal Remedies and High Antioxidant Diet
JK121 wrote:

 

Hi C1  Divided doses would be better.  I go to iherb.com.  They got the best selection of many natural supplements to heal yourself.  

I personally have not been to the doctors for anything going on 5 yrs now.   I have a HIGH antioxidant diet.  

If Americans took care of themselves and if food industry did not make us sick.  Universal Healthcare would not even be a topic of discussion.  

 

Take care. 

 

Hi, JK;

Thanks again for the input.  I completely agree with this: 

JK wrote:

If Americans took care of themselves and if food industry did not make us sick.  Universal Healthcare would not even be a topic of discussion.  

Do you follow any specific guidelines for a HIGH antioxidant diet?  Are there books or websites you can refer me to?

After I post this, I'm off to iherb.com

Until then,

C1oudfire

 

 

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Re: The Alternative Healthcare Thread
JK121 wrote:

Gerson Therapy will kill cancer ... 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Gerson

Max Gerson (18 October 18818 March 1959) was a German physician who developed the Gerson Therapy, an alternative dietary therapy which he claimed could cure cancer and most chronic, degenerative diseases. Gerson described his approach in the book A Cancer Therapy: Results of 50 Cases. However, when Gerson's claims were independently evaluated by the National Cancer Institute, it was found that Gerson's records lacked the basic information necessary to systematically evaluate his claims, and the patients who were "cured" by his treatment were also receiving standard, effective medical treatment simultaneously.[1]The therapy is considered scientifically unsupported and potentially hazardous,[2][3] and has been blamed for the deaths of patients who substituted it for standard medical care.[4]

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Re: The Alternative Healthcare Thread

 

Hey Sam.  I have read that it does not cure cancer.  Not sure how much of that crap I believe.  No money in a cure.  

 

C1. I basically take 

coq10

Tumeric

Green tea

Resveratrol

Vit. C with Alpha Lipoic Acid

And some Soy Lecithin with fish or flax seed oil.  

 

I may change it up here and there and try different things that hit the market.  

I really love Acai Goji berry juice.  

 

Go to amazon and just search for books probably plenty. 

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Re: Low Back Pain
C1oudfire wrote:
JAG wrote:

 Hi C1oudfire,

While your description of your ailment was all to brief for an accurate assessment, I would like to suggest that the most likely cause (by statistical average) of your low back pain is trigger points in the Quadratus Lumborum muscle that is found deep in the low back region. For more information about trigger points, please visit my wife's website www.painwhisperer.com. I suggest that you start here, and then use our Pain Mapper to identify and learn more about the specific trigger points that may be involved with your condition. Also, I would suggest that you avoid apply ice, as this aggravates trigger points.

Hope this helps.

(Edit: I'm not trying to sell you anything, just providing some info)

Hi, Jeff;

After reviewing your links, I can say that it's pretty clear that both the iliopsoas and quadratus lumborum are involved, bilaterally.  On palpation, my husband can clearly follow a vertical muscle along my spine in rocky hard spasm.  Also, any activity on my feet is painful.  My pelvis feels unstable when walking.  But also, I have bilateral pain in the lower abdomen, whose presence is directly related to position and the intensity of back pain.  It occurs simultaneously with muscle spasm type pain in certain positions. 

From past instruction by a highly skilled sports physical therapist, I can detect that my pelvis seems to be slightly rotated posteriorly on the right.  Viewed from the front, the landmarks on my anterior iliac spine are 1/4 to 1/2 inch lower on the right than the left.  If, while looking in the mirror, I make a conscious effort to correct this, I am rewarded with some pain relief, but it is unsustainable d/t the intensity of muscle spasm.  I am normally quite flexible, but my range of motion is limited now, to some degree by pain, but even more so by spasm.  Bending forward is the most severely restricted movement.   

Second to the hot bath, the most useful intervention I've found is laying on a hard surface.  I slept on the floor last night, with lower legs on a stool, all joints at 90 degrees.  I can also lay on either side, on a firm surface, with knees/hips in 90 degree flexion.  Except for the pressure on hips and sacrum (I don't have much padding), I'm relatively comfortable in these positions, after a few minutes. 

Because I can lay on either side, I doubt that the gluteus medius is involved, but my pelvis does feel unstable when walking.  As described on your wife's site, I do find myself supporting my upper body with my arms to avoid pain.

I concur that ice is not useful.  I applied it soon after initial pain onset, and the progression of muscle spasm involvement accelerated from there.  Heat was initially useful, and warm bath or massage yields a temporary partial, but much welcome relief. 

Right now, I'm relatively comfortable, but doped to the gills with Flexeril and ibuprofen, out of desperation.  I disdain both drugs as any kind of long-term solution. I can only hope that this post makes sense . . .

I doubt a disc problem, as I was right as rain until waking up two days ago, and there was no heavy lifting or awkward positions in the period preceding onset.  I did, however, spend more time sitting, than is my usual habit. 

I am impressed with the specificity of your wife's website, and would like to pursue trigger point therapy.

Thank you so much for your response.

 

 

When you find bilateral trigger points in multiple muscles, the problem is NOT primarily trigger points.  I'm more than a little familiar with trigger points since I studied personally with Janet Travell, M.D. 

http://www.amazon.com/Travell-Simons-Myofascial-Pain-Dysfunction/dp/0683307711/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246825186&sr=1-1

I also took referrals from Edward Rachlin, M.D. (dual credentialled as both an orthopaedic surgeon and a physiatrist) who wrote a textbook on myofascial pain and who, in turn, studied with Hans Kraus, M.D.  Kraus and Travell were the originators of trigger point work for myofascial pain in this country many years ago.  In addition, I wrote a chapter in Edward Rachlin's book (both first and second edition) as well related to manual therapy treatment of myofascial pain.

http://www.amazon.com/Myofascial-Pain-Fibromyalgia-Trigger-Management/dp/0323011551

 

These trigger points are secondary, not primary phenomenon.  If the sports physical therapist detected a right posterior innominate rotation dysfunction (if your description is accurate), that iliac dysfunction could cause your symptoms including your feeling of instability in the pelvis.  There's probably co-existing sacral dysfunction as well.  I'll stand by what I said about the possibility of a disc though, even with this additional information.  This type of pelvic dysfunction will cause sacral base unleveling which in turn will affect the superimposed lumbar level (i.e. L5-S1 where you report an "instability") creating asymmetrical disc loading.  I've seen it many times.  However, correct the dysfunction and the disc distortion resolves (unless the annulus has been breeched).  Despite both lay and professional misconceptions, research shows that prolonged and/or improper sitting is the #1 cause of discogenic problems, not heavy lifting or awkward movements.

 

I'd recommend seeing an experienced and well qualified orthopaedic physical therapist to get treatment.  Using chemical means exclusively to address mechanically sourced pain is always less efficient and less effective than using mechanical means to address mechanical pain.  Heat, cold, meds, nutriceuticals, etc. are all palliative in this situation, not curative.  But what would I know.  I've only been doing this stuff for 30 years and lectured in 40 different states on the topic.;-)

 

Good luck.

 

 

 

 

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Cloudfire
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Re: Low Back Pain
ao wrote:
C1oudfire wrote:
JAG wrote:

 Hi C1oudfire,

While your description of your ailment was all to brief for an accurate assessment, I would like to suggest that the most likely cause (by statistical average) of your low back pain is trigger points in the Quadratus Lumborum muscle that is found deep in the low back region. For more information about trigger points, please visit my wife's website www.painwhisperer.com. I suggest that you start here, and then use our Pain Mapper to identify and learn more about the specific trigger points that may be involved with your condition. Also, I would suggest that you avoid apply ice, as this aggravates trigger points.

Hope this helps.

(Edit: I'm not trying to sell you anything, just providing some info)

Hi, Jeff;

After reviewing your links, I can say that it's pretty clear that both the iliopsoas and quadratus lumborum are involved, bilaterally.  On palpation, my husband can clearly follow a vertical muscle along my spine in rocky hard spasm.  Also, any activity on my feet is painful.  My pelvis feels unstable when walking.  But also, I have bilateral pain in the lower abdomen, whose presence is directly related to position and the intensity of back pain.  It occurs simultaneously with muscle spasm type pain in certain positions. 

From past instruction by a highly skilled sports physical therapist, I can detect that my pelvis seems to be slightly rotated posteriorly on the right.  Viewed from the front, the landmarks on my anterior iliac spine are 1/4 to 1/2 inch lower on the right than the left.  If, while looking in the mirror, I make a conscious effort to correct this, I am rewarded with some pain relief, but it is unsustainable d/t the intensity of muscle spasm.  I am normally quite flexible, but my range of motion is limited now, to some degree by pain, but even more so by spasm.  Bending forward is the most severely restricted movement.   

Second to the hot bath, the most useful intervention I've found is laying on a hard surface.  I slept on the floor last night, with lower legs on a stool, all joints at 90 degrees.  I can also lay on either side, on a firm surface, with knees/hips in 90 degree flexion.  Except for the pressure on hips and sacrum (I don't have much padding), I'm relatively comfortable in these positions, after a few minutes. 

Because I can lay on either side, I doubt that the gluteus medius is involved, but my pelvis does feel unstable when walking.  As described on your wife's site, I do find myself supporting my upper body with my arms to avoid pain.

I concur that ice is not useful.  I applied it soon after initial pain onset, and the progression of muscle spasm involvement accelerated from there.  Heat was initially useful, and warm bath or massage yields a temporary partial, but much welcome relief. 

Right now, I'm relatively comfortable, but doped to the gills with Flexeril and ibuprofen, out of desperation.  I disdain both drugs as any kind of long-term solution. I can only hope that this post makes sense . . .

I doubt a disc problem, as I was right as rain until waking up two days ago, and there was no heavy lifting or awkward positions in the period preceding onset.  I did, however, spend more time sitting, than is my usual habit. 

I am impressed with the specificity of your wife's website, and would like to pursue trigger point therapy.

Thank you so much for your response.

 

 

When you find bilateral trigger points in multiple muscles, the problem is NOT primarily trigger points.  I'm more than a little familiar with trigger points since I studied personally with Janet Travell, M.D. 

http://www.amazon.com/Travell-Simons-Myofascial-Pain-Dysfunction/dp/0683307711/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246825186&sr=1-1

I also took referrals from Edward Rachlin, M.D. (dual credentialled as both an orthopaedic surgeon and a physiatrist) who wrote a textbook on myofascial pain and who, in turn, studied with Hans Kraus, M.D.  Kraus and Travell were the originators of trigger point work for myofascial pain in this country many years ago.  In addition, I wrote a chapter in Edward Rachlin's book (both first and second edition) as well related to manual therapy treatment of myofascial pain.

http://www.amazon.com/Myofascial-Pain-Fibromyalgia-Trigger-Management/dp/0323011551

 

These trigger points are secondary, not primary phenomenon.  If the sports physical therapist detected a right posterior innominate rotation dysfunction (if your description is accurate), that iliac dysfunction could cause your symptoms including your feeling of instability in the pelvis.  There's probably co-existing sacral dysfunction as well.  I'll stand by what I said about the possibility of a disc though, even with this additional information.  This type of pelvic dysfunction will cause sacral base unleveling which in turn will affect the superimposed lumbar level (i.e. L5-S1 where you report an "instability") creating asymmetrical disc loading.  I've seen it many times.  However, correct the dysfunction and the disc distortion resolves (unless the annulus has been breeched).  Despite both lay and professional misconceptions, research shows that prolonged and/or improper sitting is the #1 cause of discogenic problems, not heavy lifting or awkward movements.

 

I'd recommend seeing an experienced and well qualified orthopaedic physical therapist to get treatment.  Using chemical means exclusively to address mechanically sourced pain is always less efficient and less effective than using mechanical means to address mechanical pain.  Heat, cold, meds, nutriceuticals, etc. are all palliative in this situation, not curative.  But what would I know.  I've only been doing this stuff for 30 years and lectured in 40 different states on the topic.;-)

 

Good luck. 

 

Hi, AO;

I concur on absolutely everything you have said.  My experience is that until everything is back in alignment, the problem will recur . . . And, until strengthing of the supportive muscles is properly done, there will be recurrences.  This is consistent with my experience of this problem, as well as what I've learned from my sports physical therapist. . . . .  with whom, by the way, I presciently bartered my garden design skills, for PT consultations, a couple of months ago.  Gratefully, I'm on the he-owes-me side of that one. I had anticipated that my husband would be using his skills, but I'm sure the deal is transferrable.  I was holding off calling him until I got the spasm under control (more can be done about realignment after spasm is lessened) and the holiday weekend is over.

I really appreciate your weighing in on this, as you are speaking the same language my PT does, and it's a great confirmation that he is highly competent. 

I fully realize that muscle relaxants are no long term solution.  I will not use them and stay active, as I feel that they short-circuit the warning and protective mechanism that spasm is intended to provide.  But they have been useful in allowing the spasm to abate enough that, after lying on a hard surface, and doing a few isometrics that I remember from my previous PT, I'm able to realign somewhat, under my own power.  My pelvis is more level now (not perfect). 

I fully realize that, for "permanent" stabilization, I need to see my PT .    Do you think that trigger point therapy would be effective at this stage of the game, to stop the pain/spasm/pain cycle?

And, do you think that Pilates, or a similar muscle-strengthening regimen will help keep my back/pelvis stable over the long term?

Oh, and one more:  If the pain decreased 90% on taking one dose of Flexeril (20 mg) and 300 mg Ibuprofen, would that rule out a herniated disc?  The quality of the pain was typical of spasm, not nerve pain, and it's dramatically improved after taking the meds.

Sorry for all the questions.  I cannot tell you how much I appreciate the input  . . . .

 

 Until then,

C1oudfire

 

 

 

 

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Posts: 2220
Re: Low Back Pain

Trigger point therapy could be effective but I don't think it's THE most effective thing at this stage.  PRRT is one approach that can very quickly abolish pain but your therapist may not be familiar with it.  The spasm, however, as you realize, is protective in nature.  If someone fractured a long bone, there would be spasm every time it shifted out of position.  Spasm trains you to VERY STRICTLY maintain neutral position and use key muscles like the transversus abdominus and pelvic floor muscles to maintain that position.  Get the dysfunction and disc reduced and the pain and spasm will abate. 

Also, the Systema breathing approach (book is called "Let Every Breath ..." by Vladimir Vasiliev) can be very effective in decreasing the pain if consistently applied but, unfortunately, most people lack the discipline to really apply those principles consistently.  It should almost become a way of life.

Pilates would be an excellent approach to build your strength and stabilization ability.  I particularly favor the Polestar approach and Stott conditioning.  Unfortunately, as time has progressed, much Pilates training has gotten diluted down in a manner which is not positive.  Even the so-called "best" Pilates instructor in my area really doesn't understand Pilates to the nth degree.

A disc doesn't have to cause nerve pain.  If the disc is pressing on the posterior longitudinal ligament, for example, the meds could definitely ease your pain.  Spasm is generally indicative of an derangement situation, be it in the sacroiliac joint, facet joint, or disc and the derangement needs to be corrected.  Too many people focus on the spasm and muscles and not THE CAUSE of the spasm.

Just remember, if you hit your finger with a hammer, despite taking the injuring element (i.e. the hammer) away, despite use ointments on the finger, despite using medication, despite using ice, etc., the pain is still going to linger for a while.  You should feel rapid relief when the right treatment is done but it takes a while for autonomic nervous system up-regulation to wind down and for nociceptive reflexes to be auto-inhibited.  The PRRT can greatly accelerate that process.

P.S. Your garden design skills must be considerable or your PT must work cheap.  Either way, it works to your benefit.;-)

 

 

 

JAG's picture
JAG
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 26 2008
Posts: 2492
Buyer Beware

 Hi AO,

I hesitated to offer any help to c1oudfire because I was afraid that the following conversation would result, but here it goes.

After reading your posts I have no doubt that you believe in what your selling, but I would like to clarify one important factor. As you well know if your familiar with Dr. Travell's work, her worked is based on well designed medical research, a lifetime of such research. You seem to have an extensive working knowledge of a huge variety of alternative healthcare systems and approaches. You claim no one system produces consistent results and this has been my experience as well, until I decided to eliminate all systems and approaches that were not derived from scientific research. This process eliminated every alternative healthcare methodology from my practice other than Dr. Travell's work. This process also eliminated the inconsistent results. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that in this world, your results are only as good as your research. I can point you to over 2000 studies of trigger points that Dr. Travell (and team) have published in peer reviewed medical journals. Can you show me one peer reviewed published study that supports the Primal Reflex Release Technique (PRRT) approach that you advocate? And don't bother with the "research" that was posted on their site because there is no science in it.

I'll even post the video from the PRRT site here for all to see:

Thats not science folks, that is "snake oil". Buyer Beware. 

In an effort to make efficient use of my time I will not discuss this further, so feel free to have the last word on this.

Thanks.

Cloudfire's picture
Cloudfire
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 29 2008
Posts: 1813
Re: Low Back Pain
ao wrote:

Trigger point therapy could be effective but I don't think it's THE most effective thing at this stage.  PRRT is one approach that can very quickly abolish pain but your therapist may not be familiar with it.  The spasm, however, as you realize, is protective in nature.  If someone fractured a long bone, there would be spasm every time it shifted out of position.  Spasm trains you to VERY STRICTLY maintain neutral position and use key muscles like the transversus abdominus and pelvic floor muscles to maintain that position.  Get the dysfunction and disc reduced and the pain and spasm will abate. 

Also, the Systema breathing approach (book is called "Let Every Breath ..." by Vladimir Vasiliev) can be very effective in decreasing the pain if consistently applied but, unfortunately, most people lack the discipline to really apply those principles consistently.  It should almost become a way of life.

Pilates would be an excellent approach to build your strength and stabilization ability.  I particularly favor the Polestar approach and Stott conditioning.  Unfortunately, as time has progressed, much Pilates training has gotten diluted down in a manner which is not positive.  Even the so-called "best" Pilates instructor in my area really doesn't understand Pilates to the nth degree.

A disc doesn't have to cause nerve pain.  If the disc is pressing on the posterior longitudinal ligament, for example, the meds could definitely ease your pain.  Spasm is generally indicative of an derangement situation, be it in the sacroiliac joint, facet joint, or disc and the derangement needs to be corrected.  Too many people focus on the spasm and muscles and not THE CAUSE of the spasm.

Just remember, if you hit your finger with a hammer, despite taking the injuring element (i.e. the hammer) away, despite use ointments on the finger, despite using medication, despite using ice, etc., the pain is still going to linger for a while.  You should feel rapid relief when the right treatment is done but it takes a while for autonomic nervous system up-regulation to wind down and for nociceptive reflexes to be auto-inhibited.  The PRRT can greatly accelerate that process.

P.S. Your garden design skills must be considerable or your PT must work cheap.  Either way, it works to your benefit.;-)

 

Hi, AO;

I've ordered the breathing technique book.  Thanks for the referral.  Is there a registry of PRRT practitioners?

Boy, could I feel those pelvic abdominal floor muscles . . . You got that right, about STRICT alignment.  I felt like my whole torso was in some kind of internal straight jacket.  I could literally feel the abdominal and pelvic muscles bracing my back from within.  Gratefully, that's abated, and I'm actually really hungry for the first time in 24 hours. 

Ah, the garden skills . . . No, my PT does not work cheaply . . . Which is why I sought out a barter situation with him.  But, he's got a pretty nice home, with landscaping that doesn't do it justice.  The architecture has good lines, but the current garden "design", if you can call it that, does little to enhance it.  It's like a beautiful woman in the wrong dress.  (A garden designer's dream). I've already redesigned and helped build out the entryway, and the missus was delighted with the result (You know how it is . .  when she's happy, he's happy.   And, there are several other stages that he wants to do . . . . So, that works out really well for me. 

Well, I'll be giving him a call in the morning, I think.  Meanwhile, thanks for all of the info. 

Until then,

C1oudfire

 

 

SamLinder's picture
SamLinder
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Jul 10 2008
Posts: 1499
Re: The Alternative Healthcare Thread

JK121 wrote: I have read that it does not cure cancer.  Not sure how much of that crap I believe.  No money in a cure.

JK121,

I respect the right of any adult individual to seek any therapy, drugs, herbs, etc. that they wish. It's certainly your right as an individual.

However, I take strong exception when that choice affects children or others who may not have the ability to intelligently make that choice for themselves. A prime example is the deaths of a number of young children here in Oregon whose parents are members of a particular religious sect that does not believe in seeking medical care for their children but, instead, prays for a cure. The latest was a 15-month old little girl!

I also take exception to the statement that there is "no money in a cure". If that be the case, why have we bothered to develop antibiotics that literally helps millions and saves the lives of countless others. You might as well say we should still have polio because, after all, there is "no money in a cure".

Why do we bother with cancer research? After all, there is "no money in a cure". As a cancer survivor - I take special exception to your statement.

This thread is about alternatives to formal medicine. I agree with the OP that there are viable options in nature available outside the formal medical system.

However, it is exceedingly dangerous to make a flat statement ("Gerson Therapy will kill cancer ... ") that cannot be scientifically proven especially when it can be deadly if someone chooses that route instead of seeking proven formal medical solutions.

jneo's picture
jneo
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Jan 7 2009
Posts: 742
Re: The Alternative Healthcare Thread

 

I see your point Sam.  There is truth in " no money in a cure."  Look at the funding aspect of things.  More money goes to fund wars that kills thousands, instead of cancer cures and many others.  Why not fund for Gerson therapy research and add to it or enhance it?  Drug companies allow you to live with most conditions instead of curing people.  

There is planned obsolescence is all industry and the medical field is no different.  Industry will not dare to make cars that last 50 yrs and go 100 mpg.  Just like Big Pharma will not cure most illness.  

 

Glad to see that you are a Survivor Sam.  Take Care. 

 

 

As for the religious people.  I really have no comment other than Religion is delusional thinking.  

ao's picture
ao
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 4 2009
Posts: 2220
Re: Low Back Pain

c1loudifre,

Here you go. 

PRRT registry: http://www.prrtpatient.com/locate/index.php

 

green_achers's picture
green_achers
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Jan 3 2009
Posts: 205
Re: The Alternative Healthcare Thread

Great thread.  Just tagging so I can keep up with the discussion.  I'm fighting some really bad joint problems in the hands, elbows and shoulders.  Maybe it's the 8+ hours a day I spend doing farm work...

Cloudfire's picture
Cloudfire
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 29 2008
Posts: 1813
Re: The Alternative Healthcare Thread
SamLinder wrote:

JK121 wrote: I have read that it does not cure cancer.  Not sure how much of that crap I believe.  No money in a cure.

JK121,

I respect the right of any adult individual to seek any therapy, drugs, herbs, etc. that they wish. It's certainly your right as an individual.

However, I take strong exception when that choice affects children or others who may not have the ability to intelligently make that choice for themselves. A prime example is the deaths of a number of young children here in Oregon whose parents are members of a particular religious sect that does not believe in seeking medical care for their children but, instead, prays for a cure. The latest was a 15-month old little girl!

I also take exception to the statement that there is "no money in a cure". If that be the case, why have we bothered to develop antibiotics that literally helps millions and saves the lives of countless others. You might as well say we should still have polio because, after all, there is "no money in a cure".

Why do we bother with cancer research? After all, there is "no money in a cure". As a cancer survivor - I take special exception to your statement.

This thread is about alternatives to formal medicine. I agree with the OP that there are viable options in nature available outside the formal medical system.

However, it is exceedingly dangerous to make a flat statement ("Gerson Therapy will kill cancer ... ") that cannot be scientifically proven especially when it can be deadly if someone chooses that route instead of seeking proven formal medical solutions.

 

Hi, Sam;

With all due respect, I asked, in the root of this thread, that we not turn this into and alternative vs. mainstream medicine debate.  Let's return the conversation back to specific alternative therapies that may be helpful.  Individuals are fully capable of evaluating the validity of broad statements made by posters here.  The focus of the discussion currently on the table is specific treatments for back pain.  JK's toss-in statement is clearly just an opinion, and not the focus of the present discussion, though I don't mind him tossing it in, as he also offered other very relevant information.  Thanks for the input, but I'd like to return the thread to it's stated purpose, and the specific request that I posed.  I'd like this thread to remain concise, information dense, and easily searchable.  I'm looking for specific therapeutic recommendations  . . . not Snopes II. 

 

ao's picture
ao
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 4 2009
Posts: 2220
Re: Buyer Beware
JAG wrote:

 Hi AO,

I hesitated to offer any help to c1oudfire because I was afraid that the following conversation would result, but here it goes.

After reading your posts I have no doubt that you believe in what your selling, but I would like to clarify one important factor. As you well know if your familiar with Dr. Travell's work, her worked is based on well designed medical research, a lifetime of such research. You seem to have an extensive working knowledge of a huge variety of alternative healthcare systems and approaches. You claim no one system produces consistent results and this has been my experience as well, until I decided to eliminate all systems and approaches that were not derived from scientific research. This process eliminated every alternative healthcare methodology from my practice other than Dr. Travell's work. This process also eliminated the inconsistent results. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that in this world, your results are only as good as your research. I can point you to over 2000 studies of trigger points that Dr. Travell (and team) have published in peer reviewed medical journals. Can you show me one peer reviewed published study that supports the Primal Reflex Release Technique (PRRT) approach that you advocate? And don't bother with the "research" that was posted on their site because there is no science in it.

I'll even post the video from the PRRT site here for all to see:

Thats not science folks, that is "snake oil". Buyer Beware. 

In an effort to make efficient use of my time I will not discuss this further, so feel free to have the last word on this.

Thanks.

JAG,

First of all, I'm not selling anything.  With all due respect, I wasn't the one who put up a link to my wife's website.  

Also, what you conveniently forget is that when Janet Travell started her work, there was no research.  I'm very familiar with Travell's literature and I think you may be confusing papers published in a medical journal with research.  There's a difference.  For example, a simple case study does not qualify as research.  Is it helpful?  Yes.  Is it research?  No.  She does have an extensive body of literature behind what she does, however. 

I have the greatest respect for Janet Travell but I also am personally acquainted with individuals who treated some of her patients where the treatment did not work.  I also saw her do a demo that did not work out like she planned.  You can talk about consistent results all you want (and I'd be glad to compare my outcome measures to yours, if you have them) but, as you know, THERE IS NO TREATMENT THAT WORKS 100% OF THE TIME and anyone who claims such is truly promoting snake oil.

Of course, you have experience with PRRT?  So you can pass judgement on it based on a video?  Have you ever seen John treat patients?  Actually, there is a lot of science behind it.  In fact, John Iams, the developer of the approach, has the most comprehensive library I've ever seen on musculoskeletal medicine (better than most medical schools for that fact).  You might enjoy talking to him sometime rather than condemning him out of hand.  The research will be coming.  Be patient. 

However, if you only base your treatment on research, then I would propose that you may not be cutting edge.  At the statement goes, empiricism adjusts the path of science behind it.  In fact, one of the most well researched contemporary approaches to treating back pain was, at one point, considered "snake oil".  In my experience, I've found that that term is all too often associated with a "sour grapes" attitude.  I was a researcher at a medical school and I can tell you stories about "research".  Is research important?  Very much so.  Is it the end all?  No.  Every new technique initially started out empirically before having research done to establish its validity.  I've gone down this debate route before and, quite frankly, it's fruitless.  For your edification, I used to do everything only based on research.  Then I met two mentors who were doing things musculoskeletally that other people said were impossible.  Remember, if you look at "science" from years ago, it was very authoritatively stated that no craft could fly faster than the speed of sound, the atom couldn't be split, etc.  Research will also tell you that you should have asset allocation distributed among stocks, bonds, and cash.  It somehow neglected to mention any alternative investments (the ones that made money in recent years).  We could go on and on about this.

I had an interesting conversation with a lady that other day who's been in the field as long as I have yet is always fresh, innovative, creative, and effective in her approach (as I would hope I am).  She couldn't understand why so many of the younger practitioners will only do what's based on research (let me give you a hint ... for many, it has its source in insurance company propaganda).  What I said to her is, "They don't know what they don't know". 

Again, just remember: Empiricism adjusts the path of science behind it.

I'm sure you and your wife are very effective in what you do as I am in what I do.  Enjoy and keep helping people.  In truth, the way doesn't really matter ... but the outcome does. 

 

EndGamePlayer's picture
EndGamePlayer
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 2 2008
Posts: 546
Re: The Alternative Healthcare Thread

HI Cloudfire-

Oh yes, the back pain. I use a muscle stimulator or relaxer if I set it on low, until I can get the back cracked. I bought a small stimulator when I dis-located a shoulder and would not stop spasming. Read the directions and do not go over board- more power is not less pain and it has caused nerve damage in people who over use it. .

Some of my other favorites are: HONEY! for burns (a cold wet pack with honey drissled on the burn). For some reason - it stops blistering and heals faster in 30 years of using this I have yet to suffer from a burn. The best honey works best and the faster you get it on - the better. Note - deep burns do not hurt since the nerve has been damaged so don't think it is not a serious burn - all burns are serious.

Collidoil silver, Gold and multi-minerals for everything. They are cheaper online so shop around. Why I started using them? I had an absessed tooth and all the anti-biotics would not get it ready to work on but a friend told me to try it (since I wasn't eating sleeping or working - what did I have to loose?) so I did. In 5 minutes of swishing some around the tooth the pain was gone and so was the infection. Be careful and follow directions or you could turn blue =) There is alos a collidaol salve for skin available too that we use.

I'm on Gerson's diet and I'm loosing 2 LBs a day and have to stop since I have no desire to loose that much weight . . and I'm getting sick of carrots. . I will be getting their diet guide and trying it while the summer veggies are available. I have lived vegan for years before and don't find it much different. I've been on the diet for 4 weeks and for the first 2 I didn't think anything was happening and then the weight just started shedding off. I wish they had a forum on their website - I could document my progress and see how others are doing. I do a "mind / body / spirit cleanse" every so often and I must say, so far I have lost weight & energy. I'll keep ya posted if I think this is as good as they claim.

EGP

 

 

 

Cloudfire's picture
Cloudfire
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 29 2008
Posts: 1813
An Information Dense Resource
ao wrote:

  I'm sure you and your wife are very effective in what you do as I am in what I do. 

 

For the record, both AO and Jeff have contributed mightily to my improvement today, and I am grateful to them both.  I'm going to give it another day or so, and then I'll post my anecdotal observations of how several of the therapies discussed here have helped with my recovery.

 

To All;

I'd really like to keep this thread focused on ideas and resources.  It's OK to post a link to relevant research, but I'd like to avoid prolonged discussion of the validity of any given therapy, or the subject of medical ethics, especially as related to religious preferences.  These are interesting topics for discussion, and I welcome any member who would like to start their own thread on those subjects.  Possible titles would be The Efficacy of PRRT vs Trigger Point Therapy, or "Should Parents Be Allowed to Withhold Medical Care for Minors, Based on Regiligious Grounds?".

I am very, very grateful to those who have contributed concrete, practical, constructive information that has allowed me to improve my comfort and mobility in a very short time.  Results like that are facilitated by keeping the focus on the outcome, as AO rightly notes.

Thanks, in advance.

C1oudfire

 

 

 

 

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