My Opinion…While I Am Still Entitled To It

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My Opinion…While I Am Still Entitled To It

I thought this piece on the Miles Franklin blog by Bill Holter was outstanding.  Without getting into the more detailed, admittedly strange, yet truthful esoterica that would cause the average reader to shut down, he sums up the situation as well as anything I'veread.

http://blog.milesfranklin.com/my-opinion-while-i-am-still-entitled-to-it

As you know by now, I don’t like to talk about politics because it’s a losing game.  Inevitably, no matter what is said someone will get their feathers ruffled and just shut down.  When I say “shut down” I am saying this, I have written over these years to try to urge or be an impetus for people to wake up and protect themselves financially and any other way possible.  If I wrote about politics then some on the right or the left might stop reading and my message would reach fewer who have the need to prepare for the mathematically inevitable future.  That said, I am sure that what I say today will ruffle some feathers on both sides and in between.  So be it, maybe just maybe it will jar some of those sleeping soundly into action.  I will tell you here exactly how I see it.

Here goes.  We have lost our country.  We are mathematically bankrupt and morally bankrupt.  I do believe that even the average person does know today or at least senses that something is wrong.  The vast majority doesn’t know what it is but they have a “sense” or a “feeling” that something just isn’t quite right.

It is my opinion that the United States is being taken down purposely.  I can say this because no sane man or woman would have put in place the policies that we have over the last 15-20 years.  Think about it, who would have put NAFTA or CAFTA into place?  How could this ever have been “good” for the American worker?  As a side note, our last chance at having a leader who clearly knew how to run a business and told it as it really was was Ross Perot.  He caused a groundswell that could have taken the helm to use common sense business practice and ethics but even he was scared into exiting the race until his conscience got to him too late.  Yes there was also Ron Paul but he was tainted and smeared as a “wacko” ever since he was first elected to congress.  The press didn’t cover him and when they did, they mocked him, and the Republicans silenced him, he never had a chance.  He did (and does) however know that the fiscal and monetary policies that we were (and still are) following would end up bankrupting the nation.  He was smeared as a “lunatic” from the first day he entered congress so to put a lid on him.  It worked well enough I guess because here we are.

I would also like to say before going any further that our “two party” system in my opinion does not give you any choice because both sides work for the same masters.  I will also say that the old saying “it doesn’t matter who you vote for, it matters who counts the votes” applies more today than when it was first spoken.  I do not believe that we have had even a “slightly untainted” presidential election in the last 4 cycles.  Would it have mattered if Gore won twice followed by 2 stints by McCain?  No, I don’t think so.  We would still be broke, the currency would still be on the precipice of death and the country would still be as divided as it is.

“Divided” is a very important word and concept today.  I watched from afar (Costa Rica) our country begin to divide and take diametrically opposed sides so to speak.  Yes we used to have “debates” between the Dems and Repubs, the liberals and conservatives but there was not so much “hate”.  My wife Kathy was reading me some comments from a Yahoo article about the border situation last night, the hatred from both sides is staggering.  We have become divided like no other time since the Civil War.  Both sides are calling the other side a bunch of idiots.  Both sides are hurling insults at the “Tea Baggers” (independents?) and the Tea Party fires back in both directions.  They all somewhat miss the point in my opinion but at least the Tea Party wants to go back to using The Constitution.  There is no respect from any side, there is little logic if any and downright hatred of those with opposing “stupid” views.  It is my opinion that this part of “the plan” has worked and is working like a charm, divide the American people …as in “divide and conquer”.

My personal politics?  I would say that I am “independent of the independents”.  You know my views on business and finance.  You could describe me as an Austrian economist even though I never studied it.  I have arrived at the “Austrian school” through common sense and digging for the truth.  On the social side of things, I lean toward being conservative yet have several liberal views when it comes to personal liberty.  The Costa Ricans call it “Pura Vida”, (pure life).  I believe that people should be able to live their own lives as they wish as long as they don’t infringe on others.  “Others” in this case means “other AMERICANS”.  There are so many things today that are politically incorrect and are no no’s because we might offend someone.  I don’t give a rats ass if someone who is not an American is offended by anything that I do on American soil as an American citizen.   Today you say that hanging the American flag might offend someone?  Really?  Who cares?  This is America, it is our soil and if it offends you then please leave, we don’t need you!  On the other hand, “burning the American flag” is OK.  Really?  It offends me because I am an American.  It offends me so much that if I saw this from my neighbor I would probably go to jail for beating him senseless after putting the fire out.  Before finishing this thought process, how is it offensive to recite the pledge of ALLEGIANCE ( you know “allegiance” to YOUR COUNTRY) or have a moment of prayer in school before it starts?  Everyone has a moment to pray to their own God and the atheists get a few moments to daydream …does this infringe on anyone’s rights?

There are way too many topics to cover, the latest being the border situation.  Yes I feel for the poor women and children but I’m sorry, they are not our problem.  Yes we are all from foreign descent and yes it says at the Statue of Liberty “Give me your tired, your poor,
your huddled masses yearning to breathe free” but 100 years ago people came here to work …not get free health insurance, EBT cards, rent subsidies, disability payments and on and on.  They came here to WORK and make their lives better, NOT to receive free handouts.    100 years ago, foreigners were not sent here in droves with all sorts of infectious diseases that will surely spread and poison us.  Does anyone not see this for what it is?  Our country will have whatever remaining life blood sucked out of it.  We are being attacked from within which was exactly what Thomas Jefferson warned us of 200+ years ago.  Let me also say this, an American with no passport cannot leave or enter this country…while a foreigner with no passport can enter or leave at will, is there something wrong with this picture?  Maybe just a little?  I read this morning where TSA is not requiring any ID from aliens to board domestic flights if they have a “court appearance” form.  What is this?  No picture, no ID, no nothing?  “ID less” voting has also been suggested and if you don’t agree with it you are called heartless or even racist.  How about calling me an AMERICAN because I believe in following The Constitution?  In my opinion, a country with no borders will not remain a country for very long and we now have no border.

OK, so now it’s time to piss everyone off by saying what I believe about the “right and the left”.  Let me start with the “right”.  These people believe that the “left” has bankrupted the country both fiscally and morally.  They blame the Democrats for over spending and they blame the liberals for the social insanity that is gripping the nation.  The conservatives in my opinion “look down” upon the liberals and say that they don’t use logic in any argument or thought process.  The liberals on the other hand (again this is my opinion which as of today I am still allowed to fleetingly have) really and truly don’t use any logic in their arguments.  Have you ever spoken to or debated a liberal?  I usually stop after about 30 seconds because you cannot argue with them.  They blow off logic and often get downright mean and either call you sexist, racist or just plain stupid so what’s the point?

Don’t get me wrong, the conservatives are just as wrong as the liberals and have done more than their fair share in bankrupting this country.  We have had presidents and congress’ from both sides with various mixes over the years and no matter the mix we always and every year spent more than we had.  I believe that 1960 was the last year that this country was on any sort of “track” at all.  We even had a president (Eisenhower) who warned us of a greedy (and dangerous) military industrial complex.  We went off of the gold standard in 1971 because we had to, we were overspending and losing our gold.  We have run a deficit every single year since 1960 and Clinton’s “surplus” was a bogus batch of smoke and mirrors.  Kennedy was killed because he didn’t want to go into Vietnam and wanted to go back to a metal backed money.  Nixon fell into the MIC line, Reagan blew out our budgets, “deficits didn’t matter” with Bush Sr., and our moral compass started spinning around with Clinton.  Then came Bush II and Obama and the lunacy really began.  We have become an Orwellian state in the name of security.  We have had false flags to get us into wars and others to try to disarm us.  I will tell you that pure and raw logic tells me that steel buildings cannot collapse from fire, school children cannot die without dead bodies and men with their legs blown off cannot wheel “consciously” down the street without bleeding blood, ANY blood.

Anyone who has these same beliefs are “branded” a wacko conspiracy nut by the mainstream.   If you believe that I am one of these crazies then I ask; have you ever really researched the facts before forming this opinion or do you solely rely on the official story?  I know that these are very touchy subjects and many will get turned off but I would ask you this very simple and basic question to which everyone knows the answer.  If the “official” inflation rate is something less than 2% and your personal experience is that the real inflation rate is at an absolute minimum 5-10%, then what else are you not being told the truth about?  Please, do your own research and don’t rely on ideas being planted in your head and remember, there is a reason “why” for much of what we hear.  The “truth” will not fall in your lap or be handed to you, you have to seek it and discover it for yourself…”logic” will help you in this quest.

Think about the top leadership today.  We have watched as our president cannot open his mouth without some sort of “untruth” or downright lie spurting forth.  Our current speaker of the house has no backbone and is prone to tears while the past speaker Nancy Pelosi told us “we have to pass Obamacare to see what’s in it”.  Really?  She giggled like a little schoolgirl yearning to open her birthday present to “see what’s in it”.  The problem is that “what was in it” affects something close to 10% of U.S. GDP and every single American citizen not to mention giving care to those who enter here illegally!  I could of course get into the Supreme Court on this subject but what’s the point?

We as a nation are divided as never before, un Constitutional laws have been put in place, our industry has been pulled out from under us, “free stuff” abounds everywhere for anyone willing to take it, our borders have been thrown wide open so that real terrorists can enter while real Americans are spied on and deemed terrorists.  The only thing left to ignite the pressure cooker is some sort of banking/currency event.  When this thing blows it will be every man and woman for themselves.  Unlike the civil war, who is your enemy?  Everyone?  People are angry.  People feel trampled on and ignored yet few really know why.  The banking system is squeezing you dry because the purchasing power of your currency is going away.  This was by design and was planned and put into place 101 years ago when the Federal Reserve was created… on purpose… not a “policy error”.  Yes, we are all sheep and have all been sheared to varying degrees.  Soon there will be nothing left to shear and it will be real blood that they want …and unfortunately they will get it as Americans fights Americans.

People are bewildered but so few are or have done anything to figure out what has really happened. Surely less than 2% of Americans have moved any capital out of banks and into real money.  I see it as “lethargy and ignorance” not to mention a school system that purposely keeps inquiring minds from wanting to know.  So few are really seeking anything at all much less the truth.  An example is CNBC.   I believe them to be mostly blatant disinformation but they have less than 200,000 viewers so the harm is limited.  This  by the way is less than the remainder of population in the once booming Detroit.  There are some who are “seeking” the truth but not many.  In my opinion the truth or at least real logic can be found at the Zero Hedge website as they offer real topics and usually real logic.  Yet their most read articles only have 200,000 reads or so.  Maybe they have 1 million clicks per day but I would guess probably less than 500,000 on an average day.  Please remember, many of their readers are not Americans as they are read worldwide but let’s use this figure of 1 million clicks anyway.  One million is only 3 tenths of 1 percent of the U.S. population.  Where are the other 99.7% of the U.S. population getting their information from?  Bloomberg?  MSNBC?  The White House press conferences?  All you need to do is look at the retail volume numbers on Wall St. to see that people have mostly thrown up their arms and tuned out.

Let me wrap this up by saying that we are now a pot of boiling gasoline ready to explode.  Few, very few even understand why there is so much anger seething just below the surface.  It doesn’t and will not matter because even if you know “why”, you can and will be just as hungry as your neighbor when food is hard to come by.  If people are angry now, what do you think it will be like when the general population finds out that the money they worked for was a fraud?  What will happen when the banks “bail in” depositors and confiscate funds?  What will it be like when WalMart doesn’t have food to sell whether you have cash, an unfunded EBT card or even silver to buy with?

I am sorry if any of this has offended you, it was not my intention.  My intention was to try to “stir the pot” a little in the hopes that someone who reads this may finally do something about it and prepare.  Yes some are “prepping” but the vast majority are not because they don’t know that they should.  I assure you that life is about to change for everyone, life will be a little “less bad” if you can see it now and plan for it.  I am sure that I will receive e-mails telling me how worthless gold and silver are as part of your preparations because you can’t eat them if there is no food.  This is correct to some extent but gold is your tool to arrive at the next monetary system with some wealth, some “money”.  Silver can be used to barter with as even during the coming train wreck, something will need to serve as currency.

I will leave you with this and yes I am pro 2nd amendment.  I play golf occasionally with 2 British nationals who tell me I’m nuts because I own guns.  They tell me “why would I need a gun to protect myself when the government will do it for me?  They have protected me my whole life, what has changed?”  (In case you did not know or forgot, the 2nd amendment was written by our forefathers as a protection …against a tyrannical government.)  When the pot blows, who will protect you physically?  Who will protect your finances and money?  Who will feed you?  Hopefully you understand that the answer is “you” and yours (or small community around you).  Unfortunately we are now ripe for “something” (it’s called a false flag) to happen so that the sheep scream, even beg for “more protection”.  Regards,  Bill Holter

 

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If that's not dark enough for you

If that's not dark enough for you, try this one.

http://woodpilereport.com/html/index-378.htm 

Tom

"Welcome to the Hunger Games. And may the odds be ever in your favor."

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Start of a Hollywood movie?

Wow OMMM, that really read as a start of a bad Hollywood movie :-) I am not an American, so you have to excuse me, but I have lived 2 years in Texas, so i have seen nice examples of Americans, hehe, lol

But I feel with you, I also think that the 2 party system in USA is not doing you any good to get transforming changes into the system, but you can argue, not much is happening in Europe either...

Anyway, I enjoyed your story :-)

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sad but mostly true

While I generally agree with the many specific details the author sites,  I think a more hopeful perspective can be developed from our circumstances.  Many times humanity has performed at its best in the worst of circumstances.  And often times we collectively behave our worst when times are good.  Well the times have been good for a long while, and thus have many of us grown lazy, personally/institutionally corrupt, morally decadent etc.  And yes our Constitution, the written contract between our central authority, the states, and the people - has been all but burned.  But good men and women can still organize and prepare themselves and one another for a rewarding and productive life into the future.  We don't all need cars, and cell phones, and grand homes - to live a good life and seek our collective destiny.  What we need is a restored sense of honor and a sense of purpose for our lives beyond feeding the government their due, the banker his due, and surviving on what remains of our yield from running upon the treadmill.

Yes the transition will be painful to the new lifestyle required.  We should all now be implementing as we are able - the infrastructure, tools and knowledge required to survive and prosper in the new age.  For that is why we will suffer excessively, if we do not have what we need in place to provide for ourselves and those around us.  It will be much easier to reason with your neighbor over what changes you can make for a more prosperous future, if he has a belly full of food.  See to it that you can be that person in your group which provides some food in time of crisis, and some simple tools, so the group can work together to improve their future.  A hot shower, an evening of entertainment, a good meal, and a warm bed - securing them in near perpetuity are all now within the reach of most suburban home owners on more than 1/2 acre in this country.  Get that technology in place so you can show your friends and neighbors the way, and each day you will further secure yourself, your community and the future.

 

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Understanding

I got it, your frustrated, Bill Holter is frustrated --- I am as well.  

I have congealed "Republican -- Democrat" into "Divide and Conquer" in my mind.    

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Not intentional

While my feathers are not ruffled, I disagree with you Ommm. It doesn't take intentionality for complex societies to fail. Joseph Tainter wrote The Collapse of Complex Societies and there is nothing in it about intentional failure. 

So how did we manage to go down the tubes without even trying? I'll give you a two of the biggest reasons: 1) Resource depletion - we've been so good at drilling and mining that none of the cheap or easy stuff is left and 2) The ambitions of our "leaders" - what they really want is to get elected, to advance their careers. So they say and do things that aren't good for the country in the long term to get into office or to look good in the media.

A possible third reason for the downfall of America might be pandering: our so-called leaders are really demagogues making appeals to the mindsets of a number of groups of Americans. Again, our woeful main stream media bears much of the blame for this.

 

 

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Its all a matter of perspective
Pyranablade,
I agree it doesn't take intentionality for complex societies to fail.  However, the omission of intentionality in Tainter's book or Diamond's book or other books of a similar ilk doesn't obviate its operation under these circumstances.  Of course, we could get into a Clintonian definition argument of what is "intention" and "intentionality" but since I never mentioned the subject myself and it would probable be a fruitless endeavor, I'll avoid going there.  Certainly, resource depletion is a factor.  It's part of what this website is all about.  Ambitions of leaders drifts into the political arena, an area which, for better or for worse, is assiduously circumvented here.  Ambitions too are a factor.  And as for pandering, that is simply a corollary to fulfilling ambition.  But what is an overarching factor that influences resource depletion, ambition, and a host of other human behaviors that are steadily contributing to our plight?  Therein lies the answer.  It wasn't overtly stated in the article and I won't state it either.
 
I agree there is an absence of intentionality at the micro-operational level.  But at the macro-level, intentionality is in full force.  In intelligence circles, think of compartmentalization of knowledge and responsibility and an inverted form of plausible deniability at work.  Pose a hypothetical question to yourself.  If you were planning on bringing down our present societal structure (which, despite its enormous ramifications, is a micro-goal, not a macro-goal in the overall scheme of things), how would you go about doing it?
 
If you think it's all that is happening just a random occurrence, that is certainly your prerogative.  Experience and evidence sway me 180 degrees in the opposite direction, however.   
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"So few are really seeking

"So few are really seeking anything at all much less the truth.  An example is CNBC.   I believe them to be mostly blatant disinformation but they have less than 200,000 viewers so the harm is limited."

You lost credibility with me when you didn't mention Fox News, but that reveals pretty much everything about your views which seem to be the radical right with the adoration of the Tea Party, Ron Paul, and gun ownership (I am sure you can quote the ENTIRE Second Amendment, although most gun worshippers cannot).  No matter how many guns you may have, somebody will have more and will help themselves to what you have 'prepared'.

Humans would never have evolved (unlike the 30% of Americans who reject evolution and science and embrace fairy tale creationism I go with science) with a YOYO (You're On Your Own) attitude.  We needed to work together as a tribe, as a society and the surest way to die would be to be banished from the tribe.

Yes, you succeeded in stirring the pot but then since you have done all the research the truth obviously resides in your point of view so what can anyone else say?  But I must confess that I would prefer death to having to endure a world that was dictated by those with your point of view.  It is possible to prepare and have compassion without being a right wing radical fanatic although I'm sure you would never believe it.

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Redacted

Nevermind.  Not going to matter much in the big scheme of things anyway.

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Vee wrote: "So few are really
Vee wrote:

"So few are really seeking anything at all much less the truth.  An example is CNBC.   I believe them to be mostly blatant disinformation but they have less than 200,000 viewers so the harm is limited."

You lost credibility with me when you didn't mention Fox News, but that reveals pretty much everything about your views which seem to be the radical right with the adoration of the Tea Party, Ron Paul, and gun ownership (I am sure you can quote the ENTIRE Second Amendment, although most gun worshippers cannot).  No matter how many guns you may have, somebody will have more and will help themselves to what you have 'prepared'.

Humans would never have evolved (unlike the 30% of Americans who reject evolution and science and embrace fairy tale creationism I go with science) with a YOYO (You're On Your Own) attitude.  We needed to work together as a tribe, as a society and the surest way to die would be to be banished from the tribe.

Yes, you succeeded in stirring the pot but then since you have done all the research the truth obviously resides in your point of view so what can anyone else say?  But I must confess that I would prefer death to having to endure a world that was dictated by those with your point of view.  It is possible to prepare and have compassion without being a right wing radical fanatic although I'm sure you would never believe it.

You are confused my friend.  Such statements merit no response since they speak for themselves.  Hope you feel better in the morning.

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This is insane
ommm wrote:

I believe that people should be able to live their own lives as they wish as long as they don’t infringe on others.  “Others” in this case means “other AMERICANS”.  There are so many things today that are politically incorrect and are no no’s because we might offend someone.  I don’t give a rats ass if someone who is not an American is offended by anything that I do on American soil as an American citizen.   Today you say that hanging the American flag might offend someone?  Really?  Who cares?  This is America, it is our soil and if it offends you then please leave, we don’t need you!  On the other hand, “burning the American flag” is OK.  Really?  It offends me because I am an American.  It offends me so much that if I saw this from my neighbor I would probably go to jail for beating him senseless after putting the fire out.  

So if I go out and buy an American flag, and decide to burn it, this fool (Bill Holter) is justified in initiating violence against me. This is the insane blind patriotism that has been shoved down our throats since birth. For someone who professes to think for himself, I would expect more. Why should we worship the American flag? 

 

  • Friedrich Nietzsche — 'Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has it has stolen.'

 

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Silliness
Phil Williams wrote:
ommm wrote:

I believe that people should be able to live their own lives as they wish as long as they don’t infringe on others.  “Others” in this case means “other AMERICANS”.  There are so many things today that are politically incorrect and are no no’s because we might offend someone.  I don’t give a rats ass if someone who is not an American is offended by anything that I do on American soil as an American citizen.   Today you say that hanging the American flag might offend someone?  Really?  Who cares?  This is America, it is our soil and if it offends you then please leave, we don’t need you!  On the other hand, “burning the American flag” is OK.  Really?  It offends me because I am an American.  It offends me so much that if I saw this from my neighbor I would probably go to jail for beating him senseless after putting the fire out.  

So if I go out and buy an American flag, and decide to burn it, this fool (Bill Holter) is justified in initiating violence against me. This is the insane blind patriotism that has been shoved down our throats since birth. For someone who professes to think for himself, I would expect more. Why should we worship the American flag? 

 

  • Friedrich Nietzsche — 'Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has it has stolen.'

 

I would agree with you that he would not be justified in initiating violence for flag burning.  However, if he was someone who shed blood or was associated with those who shed blood defending what that flag symbolized (note the emphasis and past tense), his imagined emotional reaction is understandable, even though it would over the top and definitely not justified.  I'm pretty sure though that his statement was simply an expression of poetic license and not to be taken literally.

Personally, I find someone who would burn their country's flag but chose to live in said country silly.  And if someone acts silly, I find it best to simply ignore them.  Hopefully, they would seek to change the system for the better rather than wasting their time with pyromaniacal  machinations. 

But you lost my agreement when you quoted Nietzsche.  The man was confused about almost everything and ultimately went insane, so adhering to any beliefs or philosophy espoused by such a person has no appeal to me.  I've always questioned his popularity but obviously, human taste is a very individual matter.  YMMV.

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Silliness
Phil Williams wrote:
ommm wrote:

I believe that people should be able to live their own lives as they wish as long as they don’t infringe on others.  “Others” in this case means “other AMERICANS”.  There are so many things today that are politically incorrect and are no no’s because we might offend someone.  I don’t give a rats ass if someone who is not an American is offended by anything that I do on American soil as an American citizen.   Today you say that hanging the American flag might offend someone?  Really?  Who cares?  This is America, it is our soil and if it offends you then please leave, we don’t need you!  On the other hand, “burning the American flag” is OK.  Really?  It offends me because I am an American.  It offends me so much that if I saw this from my neighbor I would probably go to jail for beating him senseless after putting the fire out.  

So if I go out and buy an American flag, and decide to burn it, this fool (Bill Holter) is justified in initiating violence against me. This is the insane blind patriotism that has been shoved down our throats since birth. For someone who professes to think for himself, I would expect more. Why should we worship the American flag? 

 

  • Friedrich Nietzsche — 'Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has it has stolen.'

 

I would agree with you that he would not be justified in initiating violence for flag burning.  However, if he was someone who shed blood or was associated with those who shed blood defending what that flag symbolized (note the emphasis and past tense), his imagined emotional reaction is understandable, even though it would over the top and definitely not justified.  I'm pretty sure though that his statement was simply an expression of poetic license and not to be taken literally.

Personally, I find someone who would burn their country's flag but chose to live in said country silly.  And if someone acts silly, I find it best to simply ignore them.  Hopefully, they would seek to change the system for the better rather than wasting their time with pyromaniacal  machinations. 

But you lost my agreement when you quoted Nietzsche.  The man was confused about almost everything and ultimately went insane, so adhering to any beliefs or philosophy espoused by such a person has no appeal to me.  I've always questioned his popularity but obviously, human taste is a very individual matter.  YMMV.

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Silliness?

[/quote ommm]

I would agree with you that he would not be justified in initiating violence for flag burning.  However, if he was someone who shed blood or was associated with those who shed blood defending what that flag symbolized (note the emphasis and past tense), his imagined emotional reaction is understandable, even though it would over the top and definitely not justified.  I'm pretty sure though that his statement was simply an expression of poetic license and not to be taken literally.

Personally, I find someone who would burn their country's flag but chose to live in said country silly.  And if someone acts silly, I find it best to simply ignore them.  Hopefully, they would seek to change the system for the better rather than wasting their time with pyromaniacal  machinations. 

But you lost my agreement when you quoted Nietzsche.  The man was confused about almost everything and ultimately went insane, so adhering to any beliefs or philosophy espoused by such a person has no appeal to me.  I've always questioned his popularity but obviously, human taste is a very individual matter.  YMMV.

END QUOTE

So someone's emotional reaction to flag burning that was associated with the military or the state is totally understandable given the possible blood they shed, but it is not justified for someone to be angry enough with the state to burn the flag? So that is simply silly? Are the 250 million people killed in the past century by governments around the world not enough blood for someone to have justifiable anger? How about the rape victims in prison for nonviolent offenses? The US is the only country in the world where male rape victims outnumber female. Are those victims not justified in being angry at the state? How about the theft of our labor through taxation? 

When you talk about blood being spilled by the state, it is civilians around the world that spill the most blood. And for what? Every major American war started by a lie. Even the most conservative estimates have the civilian to soldier death rate at 1:1. This doesn't even begin to address refugees, and people who died because they were driven from their homes or the economy was destroyed, and they no longer had access to basic needs.

Your ad hominem attacks in regard to Nietzsche in no way invalidate his claim. Everything the state has, has been stolen. 

ommm's picture
ommm
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Jul 8 2014
Posts: 30
Phil Williams wrote: [/quote
Phil Williams wrote:

[/quote ommm]

I would agree with you that he would not be justified in initiating violence for flag burning.  However, if he was someone who shed blood or was associated with those who shed blood defending what that flag symbolized (note the emphasis and past tense), his imagined emotional reaction is understandable, even though it would over the top and definitely not justified.  I'm pretty sure though that his statement was simply an expression of poetic license and not to be taken literally.

Personally, I find someone who would burn their country's flag but chose to live in said country silly.  And if someone acts silly, I find it best to simply ignore them.  Hopefully, they would seek to change the system for the better rather than wasting their time with pyromaniacal  machinations. 

But you lost my agreement when you quoted Nietzsche.  The man was confused about almost everything and ultimately went insane, so adhering to any beliefs or philosophy espoused by such a person has no appeal to me.  I've always questioned his popularity but obviously, human taste is a very individual matter.  YMMV.

END QUOTE

So someone's emotional reaction to flag burning that was associated with the military or the state is totally understandable given the possible blood they shed, but it is not justified for someone to be angry enough with the state to burn the flag? So that is simply silly? Are the 250 million people killed in the past century by governments around the world not enough blood for someone to have justifiable anger? How about the rape victims in prison for nonviolent offenses? The US is the only country in the world where male rape victims outnumber female. Are those victims not justified in being angry at the state? How about the theft of our labor through taxation? 

When you talk about blood being spilled by the state, it is civilians around the world that spill the most blood. And for what? Every major American war started by a lie. Even the most conservative estimates have the civilian to soldier death rate at 1:1. This doesn't even begin to address refugees, and people who died because they were driven from their homes or the economy was destroyed, and they no longer had access to basic needs.

Your ad hominem attacks in regard to Nietzsche in no way invalidate his claim. Everything the state has, has been stolen. 

 

 

I also think anti-government tirades are as silly as burning a flag.  Neither accomplishes anything of significance.  Have either of those actions ever changed the demicides that have occurred?

And male rape victims?  I think you're setting up a bit of a strawman here.  Why not list thousands of other political and social njustices that are only obliquely related to what was discussed.

And as far as Nietzsche, if you want to call me stating the historical fact of his insanity "an ad hominem attack", so be it.  I think that's Saul Alinski silliness (a favorite ploy of his being to make similar inaccurate statements) but to each their own.  But everything the state has is stolen and everything the state says is a lie?  That's a bit of hyperbole.  In our own area, there is a large wilderness tract that was sold to the federal government at fair market value.  So there's just one example of something that wasn't stolen by the state.  And as far as lies, you really think that every single thing stated by the government is a lie???  I won't even attempt to reason with that type of paranoid thinking.

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