field report from Italy, Greece, Turkey, and Croatia

104 posts / 0 new
Last post
ao's picture
ao
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 4 2009
Posts: 2220
field report from Italy, Greece, Turkey, and Croatia

 

Just got back from a wonderful two week  vacation in which I took my wife, son, and daughter on a Mediterranean cruise.  As I had posted elsewhere, one can easily get caught up in all the doom and gloom and I decided to do something about it.  With my daughter moving on to another phase in her life and my son also soon to do the same, I figured this might be the last year we could all get together as a family for a vacation so we might as well spend the money on a great experience and create a lasting memory that no one or nothing can take away from us. 
 
We visited Italy (3 ports), Greece (5 ports), Turkey, and Croatia.  We wanted a relaxing vacation in which we would immerse ourselves in the experience so we decided on no TV, no radio, no newspaper, no Internet, no phone.  And we didn't miss any of it.  In fact, it was profoundly relaxing and soothing not to be constantly bombared by the MSM and alternative media messages which are regularly pounded into our psyches.  I think it was Andrew Weil who promoted the idea of a "news fast" and I would concur that it is an excellent idea to periodically indulge in this practice.  Also, with it being a vacation, although I was personally curious about the economic , political, and social situations in each of these countries, I decided I wouldn't make investigation of these issues a priority.  I would, however, keep my eyes open and, if the opportunity presented itself, ask someone (at least in Greece) about their situations. 
 
Our perpsective was obviously skewed since we were on a cruise ship with probably an 85% geriatric population in which every effort is made to detach you from the real world so that you can thoroughly enjoy your experience (and, of course, return for a future cruise because of your positive memories of this wonderful experience).  In Naples, however, our tour guide of Pompeii, a delightful middle aged female archaeologist, did go on a rant about the bankers, corrupt politicians, and poor leadership.  Since a lot of Italian buildings are obviously old and look more worn and run down than the architecture in Germany, for example, it was hard to tell how much of appearances were due to the culture of the country as compared to economic stress.  Italy, however, did not appear as prosperous as Germany did when we saw it last year but seemed about on par with France.  From the way the tour guide was going on, however, it was obvious that the economy was experiencing its struggles and so were the people.  In Rome, Naples, and Venice, however, the people were, on average, vibrant, friendly, seemingly happy, well dressed, and well fed.  There were the normal street hustlers and beggars but not to an excessive extent. 
 
Greece was my real interest, however.  In Santorini, I had an opportunity to speak with our waiter at lunch about the economy.  He said on that island, they were doing well because of the tourism but much of Greece was struggling.  Indeed, the touristy islands of Santorini, Mykonos, and Corfu seemed prosperous and well maintained.  Athens was a bit different, however.  From what I read though, I expected it to be worse.  There were numerous vacant storefronts, more than one would normally expect, but not to an excessive degree.  Infrastructure was not as well maintained with unmowed grass in parks and squares, fountains that were shut off, poorly maintained and supplied public restrooms, and other signs of cutbacks in government spending.  One thing that did strike me, however, were the cars.  In Germany last year, there were many large cars (more like America) and they were very clean and shiny.  In Italy, smaller cars on average (but then again, city areas are older with narrower and more winding streets) and almost all were a bit grimey.  In Greece, the cars were filthy.  I asked the guide about it and she explained rain with dust from the African deserts as causing the problem but virtually all of them were filthy.  In America, however, there'd be folks who'd have their cars clean the next day.  Not so in Athens.   The situation makes me wonder if car cleanliness might be an economic indicator of sorts.  Overall, from our brief and limited exposure, Greece did not seem to be as much of a basket case as has been depicted in the alternative media but then again, poverty, hunger, unemployment, etc. are often hidden.  A general impression I got from Greece though (and also, Italy) was that water (and especially clean water) could be at a premium.  Especially in Greece, there aren't many bodies of fresh water.  I could see how water could be or become a signficant issue there. 
 
I hit the jackpot with our tourguide to Olympia.  She was a young (28 year old) woman who laughed easily and had a happy-go-lucky attitude.  She talked a bit about "The Crisis", as she termed it (and as it is referred to on T-shirts for sale in the tourist areas).  When I asked her a direct question about the economy, it was the first time I saw her expression change and she became very serious, perhaps even a bit angry.  She started out by saying that, overnight, with no vote and no say in the matter, they had their salaries cut by 50%.  This number caught my attention since my daughter has a Greek Cypriot friend in France whose parents are both school teachers.  This friend said both her parents' salaries in Cyprus were cut by 50% and they completely lost their government pensions ... nothing ... all gone.  Getting back to the tour guide in Olympia, she also said that overnight (again with no input from the populace), their service tax was increased from 13% to 23% while their product tax was increased from 9% to 13%.  Taxes were also levied so that the more children now, the more taxes.  At the same time, it was discovered that the Minister of Defense, in just one of his many bank accounts, had $800 million (yes, that's the figure she said).  He was being investigated by the courts but she did not think much would come of it.  After checking on the facts, I found that she had exaggerated a bit with the amount being 80 million drachmas and with him having it in a suitcase, not a bank account (at least according to one source I read).  She also clearly understood that this situation was not unique to Greece but was occurring throughout the Western world and Greece was just the vanguard.  She also said that most of her friends did not have a job and although she did, she couldn't afford a car.  She said she didn't care, that she could take public transportation or walk.  She also said she wasn't worried because she knew, in her area (which is a heavily agricultural area) they would be able to grow enough food to eat and survive.  My sense is that there is a significant underground economy in Greece, Italy, and the other countries experiencing increasing economic stress.  Obviously, from reading the news, we know that the Greeks aren't very good a bout paying their taxes and I would guess that situation is getting even worse but that's pure speculation on my part. 
 
In Turkey, the situation seemed better.  The tour guide said their economy was doing well and indeed, when we visited Kusadasi and Ephesus, the area seemed to be vital.  There was even a large water park we passed on our way inland.  Turkey tends to have a stricter government that does not tolerate its citizens speaking out against it or its leaders, however, so dissent is probably not freely expressed.  I can understand how the Turkish stock market has been doing well the past couple of years, however, and from what I saw (as well as considering information from folks like George Friedman who predicts it will become a world class power in the next 50 years), I would not bet against Turkey. 
 
Croatia, according to an Austrian friend, has become an increasingly popular tourist destination for Europeans and after visiting there, I can see why.  Most people on the cruise ship were pleasantly surprised at how beautiful it was.  My daughter remarked that the people there seemed to be the most attractive of the 4 countries we visited.  The old walled town of Dubrovnik had been hit hard during the Yugoslavian civil war in the early 1990s with about 650 artillery shell hits (and more than 50% of the buildings damages in that walled area which was about a mile across).  Being a UNESCO World Heritage suite, however, it has been well restored and was quite charming.  Food was excellent and many Croatians spoke good English.  The economy seemed to be doing well but again, this is a tourist town visited by many cruise ships so it may not be representative of the rest of the country. 
 
With regards to NWO developments, I was amazed how lax customs were in many areas.  We only perfunctorily had our passports checked coming into Rome and into Turkey and Croatia.  We were not checked at the other two Italian ports or at the five Greek ports except for our cruise cards.  On the way home, however, my son was detained and questioned for about five minutes in Amsterdam because his passport had not been stamped.  They claimed he had come into the EU illegally but finally understood that we didn't have ANY of our passports stamped in any of the four countries or 10 ports.  U.S. Customs was significantly friendlier and less intrusive than last year but there was one event that stood out.  A very attractive young woman was detained and questioned by one particular ICE officer and it was quite obvious why.  No one else was stopped but he questioned her at length.  Then, farther along in customs, before  going through the body scanner, she was frisked by another officer.  Again, she was the only one and the reason was quite obvious. 
 
With regards to the climate change folks, while I know there can be flooding there, we were surprised to find that St. Mark's Square and many of the streets in Venice are regularly flooded at high tide.  Our first night there, we unexpected ran into the situation of water up to our upper shins.  Of course, every crisis presents an opportunity and entrepreneurs were hawking plastic bags to put over your legs as well as rubber boots. 
 
One more situation occurred that I thought was of interest.  When I went to exchange U.S. dollars for Croatian kunas, any bills that were wrinkled, torn, or had any kind of stain or writing on them were refused.  Also, although we informed our credit card company where we were going, we ran into situations twice where the credit card company refused to allow the purchase to go through.  The second time occurred after we called them AGAIN from the ship's satellite phone to make sure everything was OK.  The message here was that cash is king but it better be pristine cash. 
 
Overall, tourism seemed to be strong.  These ports were all packed with tourists and our cruise ship seemed to be fully booked.  There was no obvious evidence of economic recession (but then again, how obvious would such a situation be in that venue).  All in all, it was a most fascinating, enjoyable, and relaxing experience seeing a different part of the world and getting away from it all for a couple of weeks.  I'm realizing at this stage that what's going to happen is going to happen and nothing I say or do is going to change it.  Also, if people haven't caught on by now, they probably never will until it smacks them in the face.  I'm done with "evangelizing" about what's coming and have settled in to enjoy life as much as possible while still being prepared as much as possible for any eventuality.  Also, I've lost interest in keeping up on every little news development.  It makes for too much crazyiness and, at this stage, I've got better things to do with my time.  This is going to be a LONG course of events so pacing oneself will be important.  Ciao. 
 
thc0655's picture
thc0655
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Apr 27 2010
Posts: 1614
Wise move, AO

AO:

Your family vacation at your particular stage of life seems to me a wise move.  I'm happy for you that it turned out just as you had hoped.

And thanks for sharing your impressions.  "Raw data" is very important to me considering how "everybody" is trying to convince me that they have the right view of things.  As you stated, though, your particular ports of call might not have been the most representative of the whole situation.  I could take you on a very pleasant 3 day tour of Philadelphia and you might have equally positive impressions, and then in 8 hours I could show you some other stuff that would scare your socks off.

I'm moving in the direction you concluded with, but I'm not as far along as you are:

"I'm realizing at this stage that what's going to happen is going to happen and nothing I say or do is going to change it.  Also, if people haven't caught on by now, they probably never will until it smacks them in the face.  I'm done with "evangelizing" about what's coming and have settled in to enjoy life as much as possible while still being prepared as much as possible for any eventuality.  Also, I've lost interest in keeping up on every little news development.  It makes for too much crazyiness and, at this stage, I've got better things to do with my time.  This is going to be a LONG course of events so pacing oneself will be important."

Tom

Doug's picture
Doug
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 1 2008
Posts: 3159
Thanks AO

Thanks for sharing.  Like Tom and you, I am doing less evangelizing and more enjoying our ongoing preps, principally incorporating permaculture features into our land planning.  

Your cruise struck a cord with me because I had my own Med cruise along with visits to many other ports through the Mideast, Africa, the Caribbean and South America 40 some years ago compliments of Uncle Sam.  At the time the USD was king and there was an active black market everywhere we visited.  I  came to believe an alternative economy is valuable if not essential to keep the dominant system 'honest.'

Congrats on taking the opportunity to share a formative experience with the kids.  You and they will never forget it.

Doug

robie robinson's picture
robie robinson
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 25 2009
Posts: 1182
Thanks AO

apologetics will produce longer lasting converts than evangelism, it works. it is good to have you back. i thought you might have "gone galt".

robie

Oliveoilguy's picture
Oliveoilguy
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Jun 29 2012
Posts: 578
Brings Back Memories

Thanks for the detailed report. Reminds me of my travels.

In 1970 I went overland to India. Started in Switzerland. Train to Italy, boat to Greece, Boat to Turkey, then followed the trade route through Iran, Afganistan, Pakistan, and finally to India. 

Still have impressions of the people and the cultures to this day. It's fun to connect with people as you did with the tourguide to Olympia.

BY the way......regarding your vacation from the news. Nancy and I have given up TV. Our life is better than ever.     Thanks again.

Nervous Nelly's picture
Nervous Nelly
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Nov 23 2011
Posts: 209
Welcome back ao.
I'm realizing at this stage that what's going to happen is going to happen and nothing I say or do is going to change it.  Also, if people haven't caught on by now, they probably never will until it smacks them in the face.  I'm done with "evangelizing" about what's coming and have settled in to enjoy life as much as possible while still being prepared as much as possible for any eventuality.  Also, I've lost interest in keeping up on every little news development.  It makes for too much crazyiness and, at this stage, I've got better things to do with my time.  This is going to be a LONG course of events so pacing oneself will be important.  Ciao. 
ao what's a paragraph of wisdom! There comes a point of over saturation where enough is enough.
Take a vacation the problem will still be there when we get back. You and your family know what's going on and take measures to protect yourselves to best of your knowledge and so do I. We can see the train wreak coming and if others are in denial that's their problem. I've given up wasting my precious energy. Anyway why should I try to impose my way of thinking on others. 
Seems that ignorance is bliss. 
 
One sentence you wrote caught my attention. Are you sure about that?

        Taxes were also levied so that the more children now, the more taxes. 

           Population control ?
 
Sonya
 
Oh Lord can't seem to block just one paragraph !!!  Sorry.
westcoastjan's picture
westcoastjan
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Jun 4 2012
Posts: 571
seconding many of the thoughts here

Thanks for the great insights as well as sharing your experience for us. Like the others who posted, I found your last paragraph to be especially good. It resonates strongly with me. Perhaps some of us are having "aha" moments where we realize that one can immerse themselves too much in reading and preparing, to the point of oversaturation. That is kind of where I have been lately. Enjoyment of life need not be sacrificed at the alter of learning and preparing.

Perhaps a fourth "E" to supplement the 3E's is required. It would primarily be Emotional resilience, with a strong emphasis on Enjoyment of life. In order for us to be on an even keel as much as possible, we must also give priority to downtime to enjoy whatever it is that brings happiness.

I am glad you wrote this as it has given me a little wake up call. Time is precious, and there is no time like the present.

Cheers,

Jan

 

ao's picture
ao
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 4 2009
Posts: 2220
thanks

Thanks for your comments folks.

A few other things come to mind.  For the Definitive Firearms followers, this is amusing (and concerning at the same time).  There were many carabieniri (Italian national military police) in Rome, a number of whom were armed with Beretta submachine guns.  We spotted one particular carabieneri cradling his Beretta with ... get this ... his hand OVER the muzzle of the gun.  As I pointed this out to my wife and we both stared and chuckled, the carabieneri realized what we were looking at and quickly moved his hand, looking a little embarassed in the process.

Also, there was a huge March for Life demonstration by the Coliseum in Rome with probably 15,000 marchers (all very peaceful), roads closed all around the area, a huge police presence, and helicopters hovering overhead.  Speaking to friends in this country who are Catholic though, no one heard anything about it and there was almost nothing mentioned in the media about it, either in the US or in Europe, according to my daughter who lives there.  Whatever one's belief system or political orientation, it's just another example of highly selective MSM coverage.

Another thing that struck me is that in an a pre-industrial, pre-petroleum, pre-electronic era, the degree of sophistication of architecture and construction in Italy, Greece, and Turkey was simply astounding.  It was one thing for me to know about these things previously on a cognitive basis but another completely to witness it first hand.  I know slave labor was a significant factor but I can't envision slaves nowadays doing what they did then.  Plus, it takes someone with the know-how to supervise the slaves.    For the granite columns in front of the Pantheon for example, from Wikipedia, here's what it took:

 

"The grey granite columns that were actually used in the Pantheon's pronaos were quarried in Egypt at Mons Claudianus in the eastern mountains. Each was 39 feet (12 m) tall, five feet (1.5 m) in diameter, and 60 tons in weight.[30] These were dragged more than 100 km from the quarry to the river on wooden sledges. They were floated by barge down theNile River when the water level was high during the spring floods, and then transferred to vessels to cross the Mediterranean Sea to the Roman port ofOstia. There, they were transferred back onto barges and pulled up the Tiber River to Rome.[31]  After being unloaded near the Mausoleum of Augustus, the site of the Pantheon was still about 700 meters away.[32] Thus, it was necessary to either drag them or to move them on rollers to the construction site."

Amazing!  It's almost as if we've lost something with our modern technology rather than gaining something.  It also helps me realize how adaptable human beings are and how enormous our potential is.

 

ao's picture
ao
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 4 2009
Posts: 2220
Nervous Nelly wrote: One
Nervous Nelly wrote:
One sentence you wrote caught my attention. Are you sure about that?

        Taxes were also levied so that the more children now, the more taxes. 

           Population control ?
 
Sonya,
I'm sure what she said but I'm not sure of the accuracy of the statement.  But yes, it does sound like indirect population control, doesn't it?
Poet's picture
Poet
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Jan 21 2009
Posts: 1891
Thanks For The Reminder...

Thank you for the eye-witness report, Ao. Reminds me to see if I can get a few small vacations in - even if it means taking some out of savings. Experiences are so important...

Poet

FAlley's picture
FAlley
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Nov 2 2010
Posts: 90
Sounds good

Glad to hear about your trip.

The bit about the TSA having that power did make my blood boil. Just a tad.

RoseHip's picture
RoseHip
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 5 2013
Posts: 150
AO trip


LogansRun's picture
LogansRun
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Mar 18 2009
Posts: 1444
AO, one thing....

I've traveled to all of those destinations on more than one occassion, and everytime I came away with one thought:  Disneyland.

Here's what I mean: every one of those destinations (save maybe Rome, Naples, and Turkey) are only regarded as tourist spots.  They exist mostly for the tourist industry.  This may not have been the case 50 years ago (or more), but now, that's why they exist.  And because of this, reality is skewed to the extreme.  Santorini, Venice (which has been flooding like that for a couple decades now), Mykanos, Corfu and now Dubrovnik, are all only alive because of the tourism.  Whether it be from cruise ships, backpackers, or the ultra wealthy....they're more like Disneyland than real cities.  

So because of this, trying to get a grip on what's really taking place in Europe by the reactions/conversations of/with the "Disney Characters" won't give you a true sense of reality.  In order to see/hear reality, you have to go to the people that are being hardest hit, which is outside of the tourist areas.

Not trying to be an ass, hope you understand.  Just going off of my own experience with the people of the locations that you visited, and off of my own travels OUTSIDE of the tourist areas of each of the countries you listed.

I'm glad you had a great trip!  The locations you chose are beautiful!  I bought some excellent artwork in Dubrovnik, and have had some of the best times of my life in Naples.  Next time, go off the beaten paths, and you'll see a whole different world!  

ao's picture
ao
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 4 2009
Posts: 2220
I hear you LR, especially

I hear you LR, especially about the Greek Isles.  That's why I added my "disclaimers" of sorts. You're not being an ass at all.  Thanks for the input.    

treemagnet's picture
treemagnet
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 13 2011
Posts: 344
I went

to Las Vegas with my family, rented a car, drove a few blocks past the strip, and it was just levels of bad.  Meanwhile, back on the strip, party/party/party.  I am always fascinated by posts like yours where 50 percent pay cuts are mentioned that conclude with a positive tone.  I guess there are just two camps out there, and I'm not in the majority at PP.  Here's what I;m trying to say.  We're all going down this road, and one by one we break down and pull over.  We each get out to see whats wrong, turns out its bad.  We look to the folks driving by but nobody stops.  To the folks cruising along, getting to their destinations as they always have - they never stop to help, ask, learn and certainly don't care to remember those unfortunate types and when they do, they surely must be okay by now, right?...warm, safe, and dry?  But we know better don't we.  So when its me its real to me and when its you its real to you and anything in between...is positive and it'll work itself out, it's gonna be okay?   You're undoubtedly a boomer and likely do not care much for my 13er take on things, but there it is.  The human tragedies playing out can't be masked by a successful trip carefully chaperoned by very astute guides.  The last thing they need is to have tourists with cameras taking snaps with the newly downtrodden.  Though, I hear there are bus loads of tourists (German et al) visiting Detroit to see how the mighty have fallen....quoted from one German tourist "we came to see what the end of the world looks like".   I mean no offense with this post, even thought some will interpret it as such.  I can't say it any clearer than that, so you know. 

thc0655's picture
thc0655
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Apr 27 2010
Posts: 1614
Say, what?

Treemagnet,

I'm not sure what you're saying.  Are you saying that we're all traveling down this long road and more and more of us keep breaking down?  Are you saying that there are two kinds of people still travelling down the road: those who just keep on driving and those who stop to help others?  Are you saying most of the people at PP are the kind that keep on driving and you're one of the few that stops to help others who have broken down?

LogansRun's picture
LogansRun
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Mar 18 2009
Posts: 1444
Thanks ao.

As I was writing, especially because I have a pretty good idea as to where your head is at overall, I felt I was being an ass a bit.  Not trying to, but felt that way.

It's funny, the Greek Isles were make believe, but IMO Venice was the most "Disneyland" of them all.  

Again, glad you had a great trip with your family!  BTW:  Did you go on a Masted Ship, or a cruise ship?  Just wondering.

 

ao wrote:

I hear you LR, especially about the Greek Isles.  That's why I added my "disclaimers" of sorts. You're not being an ass at all.  Thanks for the input.    

treemagnet's picture
treemagnet
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 13 2011
Posts: 344
thc0655

Its not possible to have three questions about my post unless you really would just rather debate a point of view.  So, maybe re-read it from another perspective.  But, here goes....in order, yes, yes, no. 

james_knight_chaucer's picture
james_knight_chaucer
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 21 2009
Posts: 160
British Comedy: Americans in England

This might give you a chuckle guys:

Oliveoilguy's picture
Oliveoilguy
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Jun 29 2012
Posts: 578
AO Got IT Right
treemagnet wrote:

  I am always fascinated by posts like yours where 50 percent pay cuts are mentioned that conclude with a positive tone. 

Treemagnet,

I respectfully think that you missed the tone and intent of AO's message. He said 2 things:

1. That he just wanted to get away and see a new part of the world and be a tourist for a while. Probably good for his sanity and well being.

2. He tried to see into the economic and social realities on the ground to report to us. And he clearly said that he knew his view was tainted by virture of being a tourist. But he tried to give some objective info anyway.

Are we to judge AO by one brief moment of his life that he choose to share with us? And label him as a heartless soul who would not stop to help? Please look at the entirety of his life before judging. Or better yet, don't judge at all.

treemagnet's picture
treemagnet
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 13 2011
Posts: 344
'support your wingman day'

Oliveoilguy, who the hell said anything about AO being heartless, not stopping to help?  WTF?  That was an A-N-A-L-O-G-Y.  I labeled no one.  I think AO puts out good stuff, but I will not look at the "entirety of his life".....why would I?  I don't know the man - do you?  I didn't judge him but with you - words like 'thin skinned' and politically correct come to mind.  Let me guess, another boomer?  Oops, I did it again.  If having an opinion equals judging to you, then I've got some bad news for you....you're being judgemental, you should stop it, I know how much you hate it.  I get to have my opinion, and you yours.  But seriously, you didn't get the reference to our broader society?  Seriously?   And for the record, good debate is healthy discussion (see also: argue).  Not non-stop positive affirmations, emotional high-fives, and internet group hugs.  You don't have to agree with my judging opinion, but you'll have to hear me out regardless.  Once you learn I'm not what you think I am, maybe we can argue about something and each walk away better for the experience - its just words on a screen after all!   Until then,  XOXO....?    

ao's picture
ao
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 4 2009
Posts: 2220
LogansRun wrote: Again, glad
LogansRun wrote:

Again, glad you had a great trip with your family!  BTW:  Did you go on a Masted Ship, or a cruise ship?  Just wondering.

Thanks.  Cruise ship.  Princess Ruby.  It was fantastic.  

ao's picture
ao
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 4 2009
Posts: 2220
it don't mean nothin
treemagnet wrote:

I am always fascinated by posts like yours where 50 percent pay cuts are mentioned that conclude with a positive tone. 

I think you are mistaken and make some assumptions that are incorrect.  As just one example, the so-called “optimistic” ending to the plight of the Greek tour guide was anything but.  It was her version of “it don’t mean nothin”, a phrase made famous in Vietnam and used there by grunts in an attempt to downplay (for their own psychological health and sanity) something that was horrible and indeed the exact opposite of "nothin".  Her attempt to wrap up with something positive was her way of coping, not an expression of reality.

Overall, your post has a somewhat convoluted characteristic to it which causes me to question the nature and intent of the content just as Tom did.  And sorry for being born in 1953, but I got the same impression that Oliveoilguy did.  Whether you meant to or not, you gave the impression of assuming the mantle of self-righteousness and of using the broad brush of bigotry to paint all boomers as being the same, both of which were misplaced.

By the way, with LR’s post in mind, I was just reminded that we had a heck of a good time laughing while riding these critters who were racing one another up these steps in Santorini, Greece.  No offense, of course, to these hardworking beasts of burden.  

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS0KG4bPHeFKlxYyaQQ0E3rIyLwTh5d0GLzGSElrLSeMvz5KMwi

 

treemagnet's picture
treemagnet
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 13 2011
Posts: 344
It don't mean nothin

Your condescending intro, to me, says it all.  I'd love, and I mean love, to take you on point by point - what boomers do best, especially the successful types, is to take a direct argument and twist it, take it out of context, and obfuscate the key issue as if the fallacies of reasoning are lost on everyone but them.  It all serves to justify the importance of their views and others like them (which, I bet if we got Adam involved we could find out - demographics of PP), which reach the boomer 'shores' as wave after wave of self adoration and reassurance and justification for the boomer mindset of "we are special".  And you are.  But, as in politics, you've reached your apex and now your type is pooling in sites like this....sites which clearly state "like minded people".  Boomers have no interest in anyone that don't think/feel/express,etc. their views and attitudes like them - like you AO.

Post after post, I am lambasted and taken out of context - constantly trying to explain to you your last '....do you still beat your wife?' response to my previous direct but not overtly complimentary position.  So here it is folks, there is no way, no way, my views run so contrary to the popular mood since in every single interaction, on-line or otherwise, I never - ever, get shit hammered like I do here.

I think we, me, you - should start (finish? - maybe theres one going on) a forum on how generations, specifically 13ers - coming into power, and boomers - trying to hold onto power, deal with issues.  Not the least of which are the snot-nosed, candy assed, glass jawed youth who YOU boomers raised with 'trophies for everyone!', political correctness abound, and in general.....a really fine group of kids/young adults that all of us must learn to understand for our mutual benefit.  They are our collective future, and they have been handed the bill for one f****** party that they never got to enjoy.  I'm a 13er.  The Fourth Turning (and others) changed me forever, permanently - that book, which any discussion would obviously revolve around, is a must read. 

That said, don't you think theres a discussion there.  I do, I'm willing to try.  If I go first, it'll flop - 'cause I've made 'the list' with many.  This is me going first, how 'bout it?

robie robinson's picture
robie robinson
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 25 2009
Posts: 1182
this is beginningto

sound like our local ubemensch arguing over whether red,green,blue. or orange tractors are best. they're all anthropomorphic manifestations of a failing society.       Get A Horse.

ao's picture
ao
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 4 2009
Posts: 2220
treemagnet wrote: Your
treemagnet wrote:

Your condescending intro, to me, says it all.  I'd love, and I mean love, to take you on point by point - what boomers do best, especially the successful types, is to take a direct argument and twist it, take it out of context, and obfuscate the key issue as if the fallacies of reasoning are lost on everyone but them.  It all serves to justify the importance of their views and others like them (which, I bet if we got Adam involved we could find out - demographics of PP), which reach the boomer 'shores' as wave after wave of self adoration and reassurance and justification for the boomer mindset of "we are special".  And you are.  But, as in politics, you've reached your apex and now your type is pooling in sites like this....sites which clearly state "like minded people".  Boomers have no interest in anyone that don't think/feel/express,etc. their views and attitudes like them - like you AO.

Post after post, I am lambasted and taken out of context - constantly trying to explain to you your last '....do you still beat your wife?' response to my previous direct but not overtly complimentary position.  So here it is folks, there is no way, no way, my views run so contrary to the popular mood since in every single interaction, on-line or otherwise, I never - ever, get shit hammered like I do here.

I think we, me, you - should start (finish? - maybe theres one going on) a forum on how generations, specifically 13ers - coming into power, and boomers - trying to hold onto power, deal with issues.  Not the least of which are the snot-nosed, candy assed, glass jawed youth who YOU boomers raised with 'trophies for everyone!', political correctness abound, and in general.....a really fine group of kids/young adults that all of us must learn to understand for our mutual benefit.  They are our collective future, and they have been handed the bill for one f****** party that they never got to enjoy.  I'm a 13er.  The Fourth Turning (and others) changed me forever, permanently - that book, which any discussion would obviously revolve around, is a must read. 

That said, don't you think theres a discussion there.  I do, I'm willing to try.  If I go first, it'll flop - 'cause I've made 'the list' with many.  This is me going first, how 'bout it?

I've read The Fourth Turning.  I've also read The Sociopath Next Door.  Time to cool it. 

westcoastjan's picture
westcoastjan
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Jun 4 2012
Posts: 571
Wow treemagnet! Who pee'd in your cornflakes?

There sure is a lot of anger coming through loud and clear in your posts - you have absolutely mastered the art of shooting straight from the hip!

Its funny, I had visited this thread a while back and was thinking I wanted to write again to say how it was great that a there were some dissenting opinions, which were well expressed, and which I tended to agree with, and also that this goes to what I value about this site - decent debate. And then I read your posts.

It's kind of obvious you have an issue with boomers. But you know what, get over it. As much as many love to lay the blame on the boomer for all the current ills of the world, the fact remains that it has taken generations of bad decision making to get us to this point in time. No one generation is responsible - it seems to me we discussed this on Falley's thread awhile back.

Do you have anything constructive to add to these discussions in terms of solutions and/or constructive comment? Or are you like a good many staff I have had over the years who love to complain and lay blame, but never offer up solutions?

What are you bringing to the table for us to chew on?

Jan

 

 

 

Nervous Nelly's picture
Nervous Nelly
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Nov 23 2011
Posts: 209
Okay I've got to read the Fourth Turning but

Can someone enlighten me and tell me what 13ers is? I ain't getting any answers on the web except mountain climbing 13ers. 

I'm not going to add any oil to the fire. Neutral camp.

NN

westcoastjan's picture
westcoastjan
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Jun 4 2012
Posts: 571
Poet's picture
Poet
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Jan 21 2009
Posts: 1891
Public Announcement From A Gen-X

As a member of Generation X or a "13er", I just want to make it known that TreeMagnet does not speak for me or us. We may or may not agree agree with some or one or none of his or her statements.

This concludes our public service announcement. We now wish you a nice evening spent with your Millennial adult kids who have moved back home after graduating college to live in your basements so that you can be one of the 60% of Baby Boomers who have reported providing substantial financial assistance to your struggling adult children who are not in college and may have recently experienced unemployment or under-employment. *grin*

Poet

Grover's picture
Grover
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 16 2011
Posts: 841
Wrong age group

Jan,

The Seattle Times story has correct attributes for the Gen-X (13ers) but has the ages wrong (13-32 years old.) This generation followed the Boomer generation. Strauss and Howe list their boundary years as 1961-1982. That would make them 31-52 years old. If you want to drink from the author's hose, go to www.fourthturning.com. You can get an overview of the generations and what forces shape them to be unique.

One of the key lessons I took from reading the book was that the Boomers (prophet archetype) tend to linger in the prior stage of life until it is obvious that they must move on. At that point, they will accept the new terms and work to make those terms part of the generational psyche. S&H predict (paraphrased by me) that Boomers will syphon as much as they can from the current system until it is obvious that it can no longer function. Then, the Boomers will embrace austerity and will actively chastise others who don't embrace it.

FAlley started this thread to discuss The Fourth Turning http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/79977/fourth-turning-generational-cycles.

ao,

Thanks for sharing your perspective of a unique slice of life. I enjoyed reading it.

Grover

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Login or Register to post comments