School Shooting, More Red Flags

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thc0655
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Guns already being confiscated without due process

Here's Portland, OR television station KATU's reporting on guns being confiscated from a citizen in Seattle without any crime being committed or alleged, without any mental health ruling or diagnosis, or any other due process.

http://katu.com/news/nation-world/seattle-police-first-in-state-to-seize-gun-under-mental-health-law

KATU doesn't come right out and scream "GUNS ARE EVIL!" so maybe you can say they are trying to be objective. But the article only quotes police and civilians who think the law is a good idea and more importantly doesn't mention the controversy surrounding this issue. MSM usually loves to play up controversial subjects in order to generate interest and advertising revenue but here they are unusually silent.

Well, here's a guy who's not silent and who raises the Constitutional issues:

https://davidharrisjr.com/politics/tyranny-begins-seattle-man-broke-no-laws-guns-confiscated/

In what many believe is the beginning of a Constitutional crisis, Seattle police have taken the distinct honor of being the first law enforcement agency in the state to put an extreme risk protection order, or “erpo,” into practice by forcibly confiscating the guns belonging to a Seattle resident without a warrant, arrest, or even criminal charges.

The new “red flag” law, which has taken hold in other states already, allows the courts and law enforcement to take away guns from individuals they deem are dangerous.

A man living in the Belltown neighborhood of Seattle, Washington became the first individual in the state to have his firearm confiscated without any formal arrest or charges.  The man was not identified by authorities.

But, what were the reasons police acted like the East German Stasi in a raid on a citizen’s home who hadn’t broken any laws?

Neighbors complained that the man stared at people through storefront windows while wearing a holstered firearm, even though open-carry was legal in the jurisdiction and he was well within his rights.  I don’t know if there are anti-staring laws in that part of Washington state.

Resident snowflakes of the knee-jerk town complained that the man openly carrying made them feel uncomfortable and unsafe.  I looked for and could not find anything in the open carry statutes that mentions a prohibition of making other people feel uncomfortable and unsafe.

“He was roaming the hallways with a .25 caliber automatic,” Tony Montana recalled, showing his total ignorance of open carry laws and of guns since handguns are not automatic, but semi-automatic. “And it created a lot of fear obviously because I didn’t know if he was coming after me or gonna just start shooting the place up.”

OMG!  Seriously?  A man who did nothing more than what the law allowed him to do caused another man to soil his shorts?

These are the legal standards for police to use the new state law to forcefully violate a man’s Second Amendment rights even though he did nothing wrong and posed no threat to anyone.

It would be one thing if the man brandished his weapon, but there is no account that he did.  He simply open carried his firearm, which is the law in his town.

This sets a precedent that government can now forcefully take guns away from an individual without a crime being committed or an arrest being made.

I'm hoping some here on PP.com who are supportive of using mental health as a reason to prohibit purchasing a firearm will weigh in on this issue of whether or not the government should be able to confiscate already owned firearms without a crime being committed, without a psychiatric commitment, and without a warrant.

Imagine these two scenarios if the one above isn't enough:

Should the government be able to confiscate the guns of a 40 year old woman going through a divorce who was beaten by her husband and was in the hospital three days, got a protection order against her husband, got a gun and carry permit, has been heard screaming at someone on the phone, and has been seen just bursting into tears for no apparent reason?

Should the government be allowed to confiscate the guns of a Muslim man who recently returned from a month long visit to Pakistan, attends a mosque where a visiting imam recently preached a sermon urging the listeners to engage in jihad in America against Islam's enemies, and has a green and white bumper sticker on his car with an unknown message in Arabic?

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davefairtex
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fixing emotional issues

I have a great example of how modern medicine deals with emotional issues.

A friend of mine experienced what he felt was serious heart problems when jogging - shortness of breath, strong pains in the chest, very scary stuff.  He went to the ER to get it checked out.  Doc ran the tests, and said, "you're fine, there's nothing wrong."  And went on to suggest that it was all in his head.  "You mean I'm crazy?"  Pretty much, yes you are.

So he told me about this.  Said he was going to see a shrink.  I told him that all the shrink would do is feed him drugs.  "But I still want to try - maybe he'll give me some advice."

Fast forward two days.  He came back with no advice, but a prescription for - something, I forget what.  Some drug.  I urged him not to take it. Said maybe I could help.

I ended up guiding him through a meditation session that got to the root cause of his issue - a very difficult, unresolved situation that was ripping him in half.  Once revealed, and released, he had no more heart problems.  It took about two hours.  No drugs, no side effects, no addiction, all better.  Was I right to intervene?  I have some training, but I'm definitely not licensed or anything.

But when I imagined my friend taking anti-anxiety medication for the foreseeable future that - best case - just drowned out the symptoms, with the underlying cause left unresolved, with who knows what side effects, and this was the "standard of care", I felt it was worth the risk.

My takeaway: there is always an underlying "root cause" of the problem.  But getting to the root cause requires trust, and a willingness to face whatever it is.  My friend trusted me, and he was willing to face his problem - and that's why it went so fast.

How to scale this up?  I have no idea.  Give everyone classes in basic emotional release skills in elementary school, so friends can help each other out?  I can think of worse ideas.

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no more insurance

Ok Grover, no more insurance.  You can now breathe a sigh of relief.  :)

I agree, video games are training people to think about killing as the solution to the problems they face, especially the first person shooters.  I used to enjoy playing the RPGs, and then I realized how literally every problem in the game was solved by blowing something up, shooting it, or chopping it up.  And I noticed just how much energy I was spending, and how much it was stressing out my body (and we know what those stress chemicals do - shuts down all the important regenerative systems), and figured out I could spend my time doing something that wasn't so self-destructive.

Like going to boxing class for instance.  :)

No seriously though, I agree that the FPS are not the ideal mental & emotional training grounds for our young people.  Especially if you first melt their brains with chemicals - they get all confused, they think the games are showing them the answer, they have some serious unresolved issues, with only the chemicals to cover it up and then - no surprise - they shoot a bunch of people up.

I think its all connected.

If you had to shoot something, paintball would almost certainly be healthier.  A lot more running, a lot less shooting, great endorphin release, teamwork, you're tired when you finish, you're in the outdoors, etc.  A real experience rather than a virtual one.

 

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Let's Go Forward

Dave,

I hope you heard that heavy sigh of relief from me. ;-) I know you were just thinking out loud on this forum. Unfortunately, you are articulate and very persuasive. Others would read your thoughts and actually agree on some level. These thoughts should be explored. If it is a good idea, then go forth with it. If not, it needs to be put away.

I agree completely that paintball is a much better alternative to shooter type video games. I got talked into doing paintball once. When you get hit by a paintball, it stings. There's strategy and lots of physical activity. It's a whole experience rather than a virtual one that doesn't have any consequences at all. If you get killed in a video game, you get respawned somewhere else and the action continues.

I also have noticed the ubiquity of the glowing little rectangles (cell phones.) Those devices are everywhere and constantly being used. Go to a restaurant and see all the people sitting across from each other. Instead of enjoying one another's company in the here and now, they interact with their cell buddies or watch cat videos instead. The technology allows people to never be disconnected, yet they disconnect with the real world to do so. Ironically, being connected leaves us disconnected.

I've seen the temporary endorphin high that people get when they're notified that a new message just arrived. That is very addictive and exceedingly short lived. If new messages aren't coming constantly, the thought that others don't care enters the mind. It's easy to imagine some oddball kid who already lacks the social graces feeling left out when all the people around him have plenty of "friends" interacting in the electronic world. That's got to hurt someone who already feels lonely and isolated.

I followed the link in Afridev's post (and some subsequent links.) The answers to what to do were all over the board. My own bias rejected some of the answers as too simplistic. They sound good in theory, but won't work in the real world. One of the suggestions that I thought had merit was a buddy system where school counselors would pair up or group these kids so they wouldn't all feel so lonely. Of course, that has problems of its own, but counselors should be able to figure out (and monitor) appropriate pairings.

It's a new world with all the electronic devices. Those devices aren't going to go away as long as business as usual exists. We might as well figure out how to make them work for the good of society. If one counselor gets positive results and shares those results with colleagues, success will spread quickly. Success breeds imitation and imitation gets results. It can be the start of a virtuous cycle rather than the negative one we're currently in.

Grover

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Florida moves closer to greater gun control

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43325913

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Florida Votes to Arm Teachers

Depends upon which way you look at it. This bill raises the age to buy weapons, imposes a waiting period and gives police some (probably unconstitutional) additional powers, but it has a silver lining.

http://www.tampabay.com/florida-politics/buzz/2018/02/27/florida-house-p...

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George Washington on gun control

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School shootings are down

Northeastern Study: Schools Safer Than In '90s, Shootings "Not An Epidemic"

http://truthinmedia.com/study-school-shootings-not-an-epidemic/

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Maybe he new something?

"The student said he'd been given the vest by his father, a police officer."

Maybe the father heard something in advance?

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SNAFU
Ever get the impression that the continuously changing story makes less sense each iteration?
 
 
Meanwhile the four Broward County Sheriff's Deputies were right outside the whole time...doing what, exactly?

 

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Vegas

More video from the Vegas Shooting has surfaced.

New footage released from Route 91 venue during 1 October massacre (IntelliHub)

Quote:

At 8 minutes and 15 seconds into the video, a woman mentions helicopters “flying overhead” despite the fact that no helicopters are shown on radar over the venue at this time.

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New_Life

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The Trap: What Happened to Our Dream of Freedom

The Trap: What Happened to Our Dream of Freedom is a BBC television documentary series by English filmmaker Adam Curtis, well known for other documentaries including The Century of the Self and The Power of Nightmares.

It originally aired in the United Kingdom on BBC Two in March 2007. The series consists of three 60-minute programmes which explore the modern concept and definition of freedom, specifically, "how a simplistic model of human beings as self-seeking, almost robotic, creatures led to today's idea of freedom."

The ultimate political goal at the heart of our age is the idea of individual freedom.

In Britain, our government has set out to create a revolution that will free individuals from the control of old elites and bureaucracies.

A new world, where we are free to choose our lives, not be trapped by class or income in predestined roles.

But if one steps back and looks at what has resulted, it is a very strange kind of freedom.

The attempt to liberate people from the dead hand of bureaucracy has led to the rise of a new and increasingly controlling system of management, driven by targets and numbers.

Governments that committed to creating freedom of choice in all areas, have actually presided over a dramatic rise in inequality and collapse of social mobility.

The consequence has been a return of the power of class and privilege.

This is a series of films about how this strange paradoxical world came into being.

It begins in the dark and frightening days of the Cold War.

And it will show that what we have today is a very narrow and peculiar idea of freedom that was borne out of the paranoia of that time.

It is based on an image of human beings as selfish, isolated, and suspicious creatures who constantly monitor and strategize against each other.

Our films will show how politicians and scientists came to believe that this idea of human nature could be the basis of a new type of free society.

But what none of them would realize is that within this dark and distrustful vision lay the seeds of a new and revolutionary system of social control.

It would use the language of freedom, but in reality it would come to entrap us and our leaders in a narrow and empty world.

Finn

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Trouble

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Armed pilots & air marshalls but no one can be armed at schools?

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arming pilots

When Trump talked about arming teachers, this was my first thought.  We let pilots carry guns now, and the almost-constant rash of hijackings that used to happen are just all gone now.  Nobody hijacks anything.

But why is this?

I don't think its just about arming pilots.

While I realize the calculus of a potential hijacker now must deal with armed pilots (and potentially, an armed air marshal), and that greatly complicates things for them, how many pilots have shot potential hijackers, vs the number of cases where unarmed passengers have subdued potential threats in flight?

I contend it is because passengers are also in a different frame of mind after 9/11, and its the passengers who are at the point of the spear here.  In the old days, hijackings would almost all resolve with the passengers living.  So passengers got conditioned to go along.  But after 9/11, the calculus changed.  Passengers now understand that some hijackings will end with everyone dying.  And as a passenger, you cannot know in real time whether the hijackers are going to let you go, or they will end up flying your plane into a building to make a point - so passengers must assume the worst.  Game theory says all our lives might be at risk from every hijacker, so we are required to act aggressively in every case now.

When traveling, I consider how I would respond.  To me, the math is pretty simple.  If a hijacking occurs, all passengers on board that flight must view it as a fight to the death.  We all remember seeing video of that plane flying into the tower.  That one image altered the mind-set of an entire generation of travelers.  Certainly anyone with any combat training would prefer to die on our feet rather than just sitting in the seat while the bad guy flies the plane into a tower.

Regardless of how you view the event, the hijacking calculus changed after 9/11.  While I think arming pilots (who have been properly trained) is a fine idea, and certainly if I were a pilot I'd be right up there in the group getting certified, I think the passenger mindset might just be the critical difference in the post 9/11 world.

Arming teachers?  As long as the training program has a similar level of rigor, and the teacher has a mechanism to secure the weapon while in class, it seems as though it might complicate the calculus of a potential shooter in a similar way as arming pilots does for hijackers.  I'm not sure it will be as effective, however, because the students at the school haven't had that transformative 9/11 experience just yet.

When I hear examples of students tackling and disarming potential school shooters - because they believe they're going to die if they don't - that's when we will have arrived at a similar place as we are post 9/11.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Flight_Deck_Officer

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Transformative events are events of the mind

I agree 100%.  I have often said the 9/11 hijackers permanently ruined hijacking as a career choice, at least in the US. They can't count on everybody playing along anymore and giving the hijackers a big media stage, negotiating patiently for days on the ground, and hoping for a small body count.  Many, but far from all, of the sheeple and flight personnel who might find themselves on a hijacked plane are no longer content to accept their roles as pawns in a long, drawn out drama that gives the terrorist or nut job all the media attention they seek and a "successful" conclusion with rivers of blood.  That transformation of many minds has to account for most of the reason why there aren't any more hijackings.  The armed pilots and air marshalls add to the would-be hijacker's reasons to try something else (like driving a big truck through a crowd of holiday revelers).  But you forgot to mention the installation of cockpit doors that actually lock and can't be breached in flight short of the precise application of high explosives.

The transformation that has prevented hijackings has been in many people's minds among airline personnel, political "leaders," law enforcement, and the flying public. The psychological transformation that led to the changes was not and still is not universal.  Plenty of people oppose(d) armed personnel on flights, but a critical mass was/is in favor.  Many sheeple still would sit passively in the cabin no matter what was happening around them, even if passivity means they will die. But a critical mass will fight to the death now, even without weapons.

I mostly agree with this line of thinking (below) with a few caveats:

Arming teachers?  As long as the training program has a similar level of rigor, and the teacher has a mechanism to secure the weapon while in class, it seems as though it might complicate the calculus of a potential shooter in a similar way as arming pilots does for hijackers.  I'm not sure it will be as effective, however, because the students at the school haven't had that transformative 9/11 experience just yet.

When I hear examples of students tackling and disarming potential school shooters - because they believe they're going to die if they don't - that's when we will have arrived at a similar place as we are post 9/11.

We have had plenty of potentially transformative experiences in schools!  But there are some differences.  First, we're talking about children and teenagers instead of grown adults, many with military or law enforcement experience. Not many kids or teens will be ready to fight to the death in any situation, though a few years later in life they could and would. And almost no children or teens could be expected to have had personal experience in fighting to the death when the active shooter event occurs, unlike a plane-load of adults which is bound to have a few cops and soldiers present.  Personally, I had a tough and violent upbringing but I don't think even I would have been capable of jumping up to fight to the death until I was about 15.  The world's militaries seem to believe that most males at least aren't ripe for fighting to the death until they are about 17 or 18.  Second, school shooter events have been "managed" differently by the media and our handlers who are almost all working from the same playbook in which they purposely work very hard to keep the children, their parents and the public from seeing anything like the image of planes flying into The Towers that might lead to a society-wide transformative event.  In 9/11 the media and our handlers WANTED us to have a transformative event so they could channel that into war in the Middle East so they provided numerous images played over and over ad nauseum until our minds were forever imprinted with the desired images.  But with school shooters there has been a very effective effort to keep images like that from getting out and to make sure the images we do get are based on emotion and reinforce learned helplessness.  Not only has there been a near-total embargo on video after Columbine (with which I am very impressed - no leaks!!) but there has been an even more impressive campaign to make sure the "lessons learned" among students and the public is all about learned helplessness, not the necessity of fighting back.  This is helped along by teachers and school personnel who are, by and large, eager to teach and reinforce passivity and the necessity of gun control (salvation by the State).

Nevertheless, I do believe we have plenty of material with which to spark a transformative event if the shootings we have had were managed toward that end, or at least if they weren't being so well managed to the opposite end.

This footage from Columbine could be skillfully edited and presented to definitely produce a tranformative experience:

The cctv footage of the killings in the library is the most "transformative" but our handlers make it very hard to find. Here's a dramatization:

Crime scene photos of the killers' dead bodies after suicide: 

Unarmed teacher in Littleton, CO middle school 11 years after Columbine tackles a school shooter to end the shooting.  

 

Unarmed college student stops school shooter:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2016/06/15/student-disarms-school-shooter-orig-vstan-dlewis.cnn

A principal runs to his car, loads his gun, runs back into the school and stops the shooter until police arrive.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/21/us/school-shootings-teachers.html

Unarmed college student killed trying to stop active shooter:

https://nypost.com/2017/09/13/heroic-student-killed-during-school-shooting-tried-to-stop-gunman/

Unarmed female teacher stops school shooter:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/teacher-school-took-down-gunman-recently-trained-active-shooters/

There's a lot more if our handlers and media were motivated to give us a transformative event to stop school shootings, but apparently they are more interested in using school shootings to push the gun control agenda.

"Welcome to the Hunger Games. And may the odds be ever in your favor."

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transformative events

Tom-

What a great response.  I did not realize just how many shooters have been stopped by unarmed people.  I guess some of these events have been transformative after all.

Honestly I've never liked the idea of passivity in the face of someone armed like this.  If we all run away, a lot of people will just get shot in the back.

 

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2 cents

Sure seems like all of this gun control bulls**t is just a really conveniently timed manufactured distraction to keep the "Left" and "Right" at each others throats and away from topics like John Bolton, Uranium One, Syria, Israel, the "markets"/eCONomy imploding, the Fed, etc.

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The saddest element for me of all this gun control bs,

is that if the "powers that be" implement any further gun control legislation, the herd will be told and they will believe, that they were instrumental in making it happen! 

 

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Smear campaign / narrative breaking down

Crisis actors, deep state, false flag: the rise of conspiracy theory code words (The Guardian)

Quote:

On Tuesday on CNN, Parkland survivor David Hogg was asked by Anderson Cooper about the plethora of right wing websites and social media accounts spreading conspiracy theories about him.

In response, Hogg said: “I’m not a crisis actor. I’m someone who had to witness this and live through this and I continue to be having to do that.”

Those with little experience of the febrile world of conspiracy theory may not fully understand what Hogg is being accused of. But the idea that mass shooting victims and witnesses are hired performers serving a dark purpose has over the last decade migrated from the farthest margins of conspiracy media.

Thanks to a range of right wing media actors, it is now much closer to the mainstream: on Tuesday, a Florida Republican’s aide was fired after he suggested the survivors were actors.

The first thing to understand is that the “crisis actor” conspiracy theory has a slender tie to reality. Crisis actors do exist, though there is nothing underhanded about them: they are simply performers hired to play disaster victims in emergency drills or wounded combatants in military exercises. They provide a degree of realism for people practicing for real emergencies further down the line.

Quote:

This is the idea that powerful forces routinely arrange massacres or terrorist atrocities, and make it appear as if some other individual or group did them, in order to achieve their sinister political goals. 9/11 conspiracy theories had long asserted that while it appeared that the al-Qaida terrorist network was responsible for the attacks in New York, they had really been orchestrated by the Bush administration, Mossad, or some other actor in order to provide a basis for war in the Middle East.

Here's the video link provided in the article as supporting evidence for the Guardian's assertion. Ironically, the video has since been censored by Youtube.

Quote:

The “evidence” presented is often the resemblance between people featured in media reporting of mass shootings and people who have been present at other events. Here, YouTube and other video services provide both the raw materials for conspiracy theorizing, in the form of shareable, reusable video, and a venue for the propagation of the resultant “investigations”.

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Jan has put paid to crisis actor theory

I would not that there is a simple proof that the victims are not crisis actors.

The proof is the Democide death toll.

If you're going to be going in for the full thing, why put on pageants before?

No, they -- and WestCoastJan are not crisis actors. They're traumatized in the way real people get traumatized. And sometimes it makes sense, and sometimes it doesn't.

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