“You can’t eat Gold”

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  • Wed, Nov 16, 2011 - 12:49pm

    #21
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    Simply Put

 You can’t eat fiat dollars either! Which one would you rather have useless paper or gold?

  • Wed, Nov 16, 2011 - 03:15pm

    #22
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    bluestone wrote:When times

[quote=bluestone]

When times get really tough, it is a big advertisement, "Hey look at me, I’ve got electricity, and you’re shivering in the dark."  

[/quote]

Hi Brian,

With respect, I don’t think this is a viable argument, for a couple of reasons:

  • First, any preperation that you make, whether it’s a garden, pv array, water catchment system, livestock, or a flush of gold and silver coins, becomes an advertisement in the worst case scenario that you describe. The only way gold and silver remain hidden from prying eyes is if you don’t use them. So what good are they to you if you can’t use them to trade for stuff that you need? 
  • Second, the assumption that you will be able to trade your PMs for anything that you need in a worst case scenario is a dangerous one IMO. One must consider who will be on the other side of that trade. Will someone with the means of producing the products or services that you need to survive be willing to trade for gold or silver, or will they be seeking to trade directly for a product or service that they need? It seems more likely that those willing to accept gold and silver in trade, will not be the kind of people that you will want knowing that you have gold and silver. In the best case scenario, you will be losing purchasing power to a middle man in the trade, and in the worst case scenario you will be losing your life over gold and silver coins.
  • Finally, no one can know the future, so it seems prudent to ensure that any preps one undertakes have value in our present world. The only value PMs have in our present, is that we can trade them for FRNs. How many FRNs you get for your PMs for is dictated by Wall Street. Why not eliminate the middle man, and move two steps ahead in this game now, by investing directly in what you, and others, need to survive?

Personally, I have to play the probabilities when making decisions about the future, and I consider the probabilities to be low for the worst case scenario that you mentioned, and even lower that Wall Street will reward me for participating in their golden game. 

In appreciation of the conversation….Jeff

 

  • Wed, Nov 16, 2011 - 03:20pm

    #23
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    As usual…

Great responses… I’d like to respond to just about every one of them individually, but it’d take a long time, so I want to respond to some of the ideas presented…

Alternative Energy:
I’ve been thinking about this as a good opportunity, but in my case, the most practical is hydro-electric… The PNW isn’t known for it’s sunny climate, and to get a good wind generator, you’ll have to get above the Doug Fir that surround just about everything – which means you’ll need a tower > 50′ or so. The good thing about this, is you can double the tower (Maybe?) as a place to mount antenna for a HAM base station, though I think it’d have to sit below the actual fan.

Hydro power would be good for the many streams and creeks in the area, but it’s expensive and could be gone in a flash…flood.

Solar would probably okay – even though it’s high signature, as mentioned above – and not likely to produce that much power. It’s affordable-ish.
I’ll put some money into this idea. It makes good sense, regardless of situation.

Ex-Patriation: I’ve thought strongly on getting out of the country, but my main concern is that right now, American’s aren’t popular. After we cause a Global Economic Collapse that will rival the Dark Ages, I’m not sure we’ll gain popularity… Think I’ll stick to home – though it’s nice to have the option.

Store of Wealth: I’m fantastically wealthy, so my Gold buying is pretty limited. Because I’m at the level where I have disposible income, but not enough to really incur much debt, I see Gold as a good option. I can’t afford land that’s productive, or a home because I don’t want to incur the debt, but gold’s increase in value relative to land and homes is going to swing things in the Gold holder’s favor, I think, which brings us to:

…my favorite: Holding as a trade on acreage: I think that getting in to land and gold at the right time, and in the right quantities could really be favorable for me personally – I could buy the land with cash which is rapidly becoming useless, and trade gold for the remaining balance – which is in short supply and should be increasing in value.

Very interesting discussion, I’m interested in hearing more opinions on the matter…

Cheers,

Aaron

  • Wed, Nov 16, 2011 - 03:56pm

    #24
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    Aaron Moyer wrote:Solar

[quote=Aaron Moyer]

Solar would probably okay – even though it’s high signature, as mentioned above – and not likely to produce that much power. It’s affordable-ish. I’ll put some money into this idea. It makes good sense, regardless of situation.
[/quote]

Hey Aaron,

I can’t find the link now (and I really tried), but I recall reading about a guy in the military who bought a house in California and installed a grid-tied PV array. He was stationed overseas for years and didn’t get to use the house much, but while he was away it was generating power and selling it to the power company. When he was discharged and returned home he had quite the windfall.

Thought you might appreciate that story….Jeff

  • Wed, Nov 16, 2011 - 10:14pm

    #25
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    JeffWith respect, I do

Jeff

With respect, I do believe it is a viable argument.  In my particular area, I can only think of only one home with a solar array, and it is very noticeable.  So I will be very noticeable if I do the same.  As times get tougher and resources are restricted, it will be very difficult  to get a solar array installed on one’s home.   No one will have the capital to do so.   Maybe the local police department, which no longer can afford the electricity, will decide to take residence in my home.  Maybe I can cut a deal with them and use it to my advantage…. or maybe they’ll just kick me out on the  streets.  Maybe it’ll be a local band of thugs who decide to use my solar panels for target practice.  Last time I heard, human beings can be pretty vengefull, spitefull, and destructive, especially when you have something they dont.  If I lived in your neighborhood, I’d say, "hey Jeff, lef me live in your house. It has so many nice amenities."  If you said no, I might decide to do something destructive to your home      

As times get tougher, gardens and small livestock will start popping up everwhere.   In fact they are already quite common in my area.  Water is also plentiful in my area  But the same will not be true of solar panels.  IMHO, it is a potential great asset, but also a liability if it is too desireable and too valuable.   

Believe me Jeff, I’ve strongly considered putting in solar panels, but this concern has held me back (oh and my wife doesn’t want to put in panels ).  Please convince me that my arguments are baseless.

Brian

  • Wed, Nov 16, 2011 - 11:34pm

    #26
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    Concealment Solar And Thoughts On Collapse Architecture

Look at homes of the well-to-do in towns and areas that are less secure. Think parts of rural Latin America, classical Greece, medieval Europe or old China or Japan.

Walled on the outside, typically few or no outside-facing windows on the ground floor – to deter thieves. All windows open internally to a courtyard or gardens (and a well if they’re lucky). Combined households of extended family and retainers/servants for defense in numbers.

Solar panels may have to be put up unobtrusively: not to maximize sun exposure, but to maximize security and concealment. You may not be able to power a refrigerator – you’ll have to rely on other methods ( like an old Persian windcatcher, a cheap Zeer pot-in-pot refrigerator, an ice house or basement, or a root cellar). But you’ll be able to charge batteries for a cell phone, a ham radio, LED lights, a ceiling fan or swamp cooler, maybe even a simple computer with black-and-white LCD display, etc.

Side Note: I’ve long thought that current architecture will have to change drastically. Most homes in America are frickin’ tinderboxes. And as the "Box of Truth" points out, paper shacks, really. Thicker walls of brick, stone, concrete, steel reinforcement will be needed. And not just smaller windows or windows with bars on the ground floor, but  metal-reinforced slits for defenders with guns. Higher ground so defenders are pointing down. Higher windows for trench periscopes and trench binoculars. Ceramic or enamel steel roof tiles, reinforced concrete blast walls, front doors that don’t open to the outside, but instead open from right or left into a protected alcove with a low wall, so intruders cannot use a ram, etc.

The biggest problem I see is that guns, grenades, and molotove cocktails are mighty powerful weapons against any house – even a reinforced one. And a farmer? She’s vulnerable to a handgun or an arrow or crossbow bolt when the chickens need to be fed, the cow milked, or the field tended. Even a trip to town for supplies in a car or wagon is potential for ambush. It seems that being in the middle of a town makes more sense, as there are other homes and other defenders about.

Poet

[quote=bluestone]

Last time I heard, human beings can be pretty vengefull, spitefull, and destructive, especially when you have something they dont.  If I lived in your neighborhood, I’d say, "hey Jeff, lef me live in your house. It has so many nice amenities."  If you said no, I might decide to do something destructive to your home     

[/quote]

  • Thu, Nov 17, 2011 - 12:08am

    #27
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    No problem with PV

[quote=bluestone]

JAG

I love the idea of putting up some photovoitaics on the house.  I fully agree that this would be a great investment and much better than gold from a financial standpoint.  The problem with PV is it sticks out like a sore thumb.  When times get really tough, it is a big advertisement, "Hey look at me, I’ve got electricity, and you’re shivering in the dark."[/quote]

For starters, anyone who does not know what they’re doing and try to remove your panels could easily kill themselves……

Secondly, you’d never use PVs to heat your home.

Thirdly, if I had neighbours "shivering in the dark", I’d house them in exchange for labour…..

Mike

  • Thu, Nov 17, 2011 - 12:49am

    #28
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    Solar? Pah.

 Won’t be able to eat it, ship it, store it, or sell it. Wise up. Who cares if you can recharge your mobile phone or lap top with solar for non existant networks. Or maybe for TV or radio with no channels broadcasting? For heat you need to burn, for light, you need to burn. Wood, would be a much better source or transferable, storable and selabale energy source. Or stock up now on gas canisters, lamp oil, kerosine, candles etc… but electricity? Waste of time. What would the Walton’s have done with electricity? Listen to the wireless? 

  • Thu, Nov 17, 2011 - 01:03am

    #29
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    solar panels

 solar panels will be readily available even in a shtf situ. you will be able to buy stolen ones no probs. sure, price will be high; two cans of corned beef!?

 

  • Thu, Nov 17, 2011 - 02:52am

    #30
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    Solar? Pah.

[quote=mryuri]

 Won’t be able to eat it, ship it, store it, or sell it. Wise up. Who cares if you can recharge your mobile phone or lap top with solar for non existant networks. Or maybe for TV or radio with no channels broadcasting? For heat you need to burn, for light, you need to burn. Wood, would be a much better source or transferable, storable and selabale energy source. Or stock up now on gas canisters, lamp oil, kerosine, candles etc… but electricity? Waste of time. What would the Walton’s have done with electricity? Listen to the wireless? 

[/quote]

Electricity is still best for lighting, water pumping and refrigeration, all of which can be maintained to last a very long time if you know how (I suggest stocking up on LED light bulbs)

The Power of Energy Efficiency

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