Why is there a controversy over masks?

Login or register to post comments Last Post 0 reads   22 posts
Viewing 10 posts - 11 through 20 (of 21 total)
  • Fri, Aug 07, 2020 - 12:12am

    #12
    Grover

    Grover

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Feb 15 2011

    Posts: 772

    count placeholder5+

    The Cart Is In Front Of The Horse

Honestly, I find masks uncomfortable. I bought a supply of N95 masks back in January before there was any public panic. I’ve used perhaps a half dozen. I use them until the rubber bands break and then I get another from the box. This is only when I go out in public and only to make it look like I’m trying to “protect” them.

I find it alarming how quickly the general populace got trained to wear masks. Why don’t they focus on preventative care (eating right, weight control, adequate vitamins/minerals) or potential cures (HCQ+Z-Pack+zinc, colloidal silver)? Why are we shutting down businesses? Isn’t that going to cause additional economic problems? Look at the additional debt our federal government has incurred since this panic started. To put it in perspective, if a median worker earns ~50K per year and works ~40 years, that’s earnings of ~$2 million over a lifetime. It only takes ~500,000 median lifetime earnings to make $1 trillion. Isn’t that about what they’re borrowing each month? Where’s the outrage? Where’s the balance?

I feel we are being memed. Is this just the first step TPTB are implementing to control the populace? It’s obviously a fairly easy sell. After all, you’re being magnanimous and saving everyone else. If masks really worked, wouldn’t we see drastic reductions in the infection numbers? Hmmm.

I was at a store yesterday (dutifully wearing my N95 mask) and I wanted to pay for my purchases with cash. The checker (wearing a stylishly patterned surgical-type cloth mask with nose exposed) held up both hands (as if I were sticking up the place) and loudly said, “we don’t take cash because of the pandemic.”

I was already irritated, but this really pissed me off. So, I loudly read that THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS PUBLIC AND PRIVATE. If you don’t accept this money, I owe you no debt. I suggested that the checker call the manager as I bagged my goods. The manager came over and informed me that store policy prohibits them from accepting cash. I told the manager the same thing I told the checker. I held out cash but the manager would not accept it. So, I walked out the door with my goods. Once outside the store, I waited a good 5 minutes to see if security or the police would show up. Nothing happened, so I went home.

Is that their end game? They’re training us with masks and will later pull the ole’ switcheroo and make cash illegal (because, “such as” pandemic?) Perhaps they’ll institute a bitcoin wannabe and make all the other cryptocurrencies null and void. Hmmm.

Before you tell me I’m crazy, think back to ancient times – say at the beginning of 2020. What would you say to someone who described day-to-day life just a mere 8 months into the new year? Yet, here we are.

Are you sure it doesn’t hurt anyone to wear a mask?

Grover

  • Fri, Aug 07, 2020 - 04:42am

    #13

    Oliveoilguy

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 29 2012

    Posts: 799

    count placeholder1+

    Great Story Grover….

You are at the cutting edge of our new money controversy. Thanks for sharing.

  • Fri, Aug 07, 2020 - 09:21am

    #14
    tbp

    tbp

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Apr 12 2020

    Posts: 462

    count placeholder5+

    Why is there a controversy over masks?

@Thors Hammer
I take exception to the idea that there are no downsides to mast wearing:

1–Helping to perpetuate the idea that we just need to wait for the silver bullet of a vaccine instead of using existing proven anti-viral therapies right now.

2- Creating the illusion of safety.

3- Providing political cover for the failures of our Fourth World public heath system.

4- Steering the public mind toward the acceptance of the Big Pharma multi-billion dollar vaccine shell game played with Government money.

5- And the physical stressor of decreased oxygen intake which accentuates other health problems.

And don’t forget:

6- The symbology that is physically muzzling us while they censor ALL effective cures and try to implement a medical police state where we don’t own our own bodies anymore.

@MKI
If you are really interested as to why people might disagree with your position on masks, there are plenty of intelligent folk out there to read. Are you really honestly listening to other’s viewpoints? Here’s some very smart guys who think differently than you regarding masks:

1. https://thefatemperor.com/ep91-emeritus-professor-of-immunology-reveals-crucial-viral-immunity-reality/ (see 1:10).

2. https://wmbriggs.com/post/31883/

For myself, I’ve been following C19 since it’s been being discussed on PP, plus have read many other sources, so I’m certainly not ignorant of the issue. Regarding the age/political concerns you have, I’m around 50, very technical, and have no political ax to grind, nor any emotional context to C19 at all, or even to wearing masks if needed.

And yes, like many technical folk (see above links) I’m ambivalent about masks. Don’t wear one myself. I think there is a similar argument to yours to wear masks during flu season but again, I’m ambivalent. I never get the flu, am extremely healthy, and do not expect to get C19, and believe it’s the responsibility of those who are worried about C19 (or the flu) to protect/quarantine themselves. YMMV.

EXACTLY!

Cross-post from Masks Don’t Work?!!:

There’s a fairly strong case that can be made against mask-wearing: https://www.covid19refusers.com/heres-the-science-that-shows-face-mask-mandates-are-political-and-not-medical/ – But of course there’s an enormous difference between wearing them in appropriate situations vs. mandates to wear them everywhere outside at all times, and wearing one in the supermarket vs. wearing one 8h a day 6 times a week at work. To say there are no health consequences to extended mask wearing is absurd, a product of unawareness (because YOU don’t have to wear it 8h a day) or slave mentality.

But more importantly, realize that, while to you and decent people around the world, wearing a face mask is about stopping the spread of the virus (based on the belief in the already-officially-retracted claim of extensive asymptomatic spread, whether true or not), but to a minority of criminals, having us wear face masks (muzzles) is about submission, silencing, domination, fear, control, enslavement agendas… while they censor us to prevent the truth about effective cures coming out.

The situation is actually much like this:

  • Fri, Aug 07, 2020 - 11:40am

    #15
    Base12

    Base12

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Apr 02 2020

    Posts: 23

    count placeholder1+

    Why is there a controversy over masks?

I find it peculiar that virtually every study put out before this year said masks don’t work.  Then somehow now they do.

 

  • Fri, Aug 07, 2020 - 12:54pm

    #16
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

    Status Silver Member (Offline)

    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 700

    count placeholder1+

    Why is there a controversy over masks?

virtually every study?  you mean the US political agenda – because they didnt have masks.     Then why are drs in surgery or other procedures wearing masks?   why is china wearing masks as culture for decades?  and why do they have success when they have a much greater populous?      The questions is how much protection do they provide?  well in a room of high viral contamination , probably not enough… for the wearer as this thing is airborne… as an infected wearer to reduce spread.. 100% effective and minimizing.. I am sure  QUANTIFY THAT ..  but there is no doubt its better that nothing.  We cannot eliminate 100% chance of spread , but we can reduce it.

  • Fri, Aug 07, 2020 - 01:40pm

    #17
    Base12

    Base12

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Apr 02 2020

    Posts: 23

    count placeholder1+

    Reply To: Why is there a controversy over masks?

virtually every study?

Yes, as the article below states “No RCT study with verified outcome shows a benefit for HCW or community members in households to wearing a mask or respirator. There is no such study. There are no exceptions”

https://www.rcreader.com/commentary/masks-dont-work-covid-a-review-of-science-relevant-to-covide-19-social-policy

you mean the US political agenda – because they didnt have masks.

There was no political agenda before this year, so the newer studies are more likely to be biased than earlier studies that said no effect.

 Then why are drs in surgery or other procedures wearing masks?

Doctors wear masks during surgery to keep from spitting into open wounds while talking.  They never wore them seeing flu patients in an out patient setting, which is the equivalent to what the public is being asked to do now.

why is china wearing masks as culture for decades? and why do they have success when they have a much greater populous?

China has also been using pseudoscience traditional medicine for centuries longer than masks.  Does that mean it works too?

 The questions is how much protection do they provide?

Better than nothing?  There is at least a theoretical case that wearing a new mask during a short to medium term face to face interaction may be helpful.  There is also a theoretical case that the large droplets caught by masks are eventually re-mobilized by the wearers breath after prolonged use.

Wearing a mask walking down the sidewalk is probably not worse than nothing, but it is also not better than nothing.  It is pointless virtue signalling.

  • Fri, Aug 07, 2020 - 04:55pm

    #18
    MKI

    MKI

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jan 12 2009

    Posts: 239

    count placeholder1+

    Why is there a controversy over masks?

I am pretty sure if people understood how serious this disease is to, not just older people, but all people, they would want to wear a mask.

This simply isn’t true about many people. Just like you think they must be dumb, they will feel the same about you, and have good data to show why. For example, the three gentlemen I link to above – they are highly informed experts, yet all disagree with you. I am also ambivalent about masks, and I’m very well educated on the issue. It isn’t that everyone else is just dumb.

What is amusing: speaking statistically, one being overweight or even driving a few times a year are are going to have a higher kill rate than the C19 for a healthy individual…yet very, very few take action on those well-known and statistically more-deadly issues. Look, many are just not terrified of death, which will get us all in the end, and thus are willing to take acceptable risks to live a higher quality of life. YMMV.

  • Sat, Aug 08, 2020 - 06:34am

    #19
    tbp

    tbp

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Apr 12 2020

    Posts: 462

    count placeholder

    Why is there a controversy over masks?

^Yeah, that’s another one, they’ve made us fear death, which is absolutely insane. That’s why if it sounded more reasonable to the average person, I’d recommend a good dose of a 5-HT2A agonist (especially DMT) above any other prophylaxis, to help ditch that irrational fear that allows for easier mind-control.

 

  • Tue, Aug 11, 2020 - 03:05pm

    #20
    JoeVickers

    JoeVickers

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Jun 16 2020

    Posts: 41

    count placeholder

    Why is there a controversy over masks?

You stole my going naked analogy! Lol, no but honestly great minds think alike.

  • Wed, Aug 12, 2020 - 08:16am

    #21
    HerrMajor

    HerrMajor

    Status Member (Offline)

    Joined: Aug 12 2020

    Posts: 4

    count placeholder

    Why is there a controversy over masks?

Do masks’s work as source control? They do for influenza, according to Dr. Don Milton, MD, Professor of Environmental and Occupational Health, at the University of Maryland. His comments were made at an online seminar hosted by University of California San Francisco Department of Medicine.

The graphic indicates that for flu particles above 5 microns in diameter, the mask filters all droplets exhaled by the mask user, and for smaller particles, the mask filters some of the particles. Another study indicates that masks likely block Coronaviruses too. The University of Maryland is now studying Coronavirus transmission, and will hopefully have more conclusive information soon relating to Coronavirus aerosol transmission and the effect of masks.

Masks as Source Control

Some have concluded that masks will not work, as the Coronavirus particle is only about .25 to .5 microns in size, which are often not filtered by masks.  However, according to Dr. Milton, viruses are communicated through inhalation of aerosol droplets (which are hosts to the smaller virus particle), which can vary in size from 2.5 to 100 microns in width, as well as by ballistic drops above 100 microns in size (see graphic below). Five micron droplets/aerosols can remain suspended in the air for many minutes to hours. Indoor air movement can cause them to travel 270 meters. Masks reduce the number of respirable aerosols and largely eliminate splash and and spray droplets.

It seems to me that the information so far mentioned here, while not absolutely conclusive with respect to COVID-19, should be more than enough motivation to cause us to want to wear masks in situations where one is in close contact with persons, whether in confined spaces or outdoors. Some masks have replaceable filters that filter particle sizes down to 2.5 microns, well below the droplet sizes mentioned above. This makes the CDC’s claim appear highly credible, that the pandemic could be eliminated in 2 months if the entire population would wear masks.

Regarding airline travel, Dr. Milton agrees with Dr. Fauci, in that he would avoid airline travel. Airline cabin air conditioning systems blow the air downwards onto the passenger, but the passenger emits a heat plume. The intersection of those two air currents generates a horizontal component that transmits air between nearby passengers. Milton was a participant in the FAA’s Airline Cabin Research Center of Excellence.

Also participating was Monica Ghandi, UCSF Prof. of Medicine, specializing in infectious diseases and global health.   She pointed out that the current estimate is that 40% of COVID infections are asymptomatic.  Asymptomatic persons can have high viral shedding from the nose and mouth, even when they feel well. She stated that N95 masks filter 90 to 95% of particles, whereas cloth and common non-surgical masks filter 65% to 85% depending on cloth and proper use.  She strongly urged people not to wear masks with valves, as they emit virus particles during the exhalation.

Monica made some enlightening points about the “age-old” theory that viral inoculum (dosage) relates to viral severity, which suggests that wearing masks can reduce the severity of a persons’s bout with COVID, should they become infected.

Here is a 2015 study she referred to that that showed a relationship between inoculum and disease severity, with Influenza A.  It was published in the journal of Clinical and Infectious Diseases, and shows that severity and days that the symptoms persisted markedly increased with inoculum.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4342672/

Also referenced was a may 2020 controlled study of hamsters.  Some were infected with SARS Cov-2, and others were not.  In one instance, a mask filter was used to filter the air between the infected and non-infected populations.  It was shown that the mask filter material led to a lower instance of infection, and reduced transmission to the uninfected hamsters to only 16%. It also showed that the symptoms in hamsters protected by masks were much less severe than in those that had been challenged (initially, deliberately infected).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7314229/

The question was discussed whether or not asymptomatic (less severe COVID) cases increase with masking, a positive, desired result.  There is evidence that it does.  On the Diamond Princess cruise ship, where masks were not worn, only 18% were asymptomatic.  As previously mentioned, the current estimate of asymptomatic cases in the U.S. population is about 40%. On the other hand, a cruise ship in Argentina that developed a case of COVID had surgical masks issued to all passengers and N95 masks to all crew.  The results were spectacular, with a whopping 81% being asymptomatic.

Here is a reference to the study of the Diamond Princess cruise ship: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7078829/

Here is a reference to the study of the Argentinian cruise ship:  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32461231/

Monica mentioned that an Oregon Seafood plant and Missouri Tyson chicken plant, where masks were issued, both had about 95% asymptomatic rates.

While countries accustomed to using masks since the SARS epidemic (Hong Kong, Taiwan, Thailand, South Korea, Singapore, Vietnam) have rising cases in many instances after the reopening of their economies/institutions, their death rates, according to Monica, are not up.

Monica presented another study which estimated that the death rate would remain extremely low (60,000 deaths) in cases when 80% of the population wore masks, but when only 50% wore masks, the estimated deaths would triple to 180,000.

San Francisco, which has a history of robustly responding to pandemics (including in 1918), has only a 1% CFR.  They have done a lot of testing (198,739 tests), and have had 4,860 positive cases, and only 51 total deaths.  According to Monica, they probably have 80% mask compliance.  Of a sample of 30,000 of those tested, the majority of the positive cases were asymptomatic.

A Boston area hospital instituted a mask policy after a large increase in infections among health care workers, and the result was a stabilization of cases, and then an eventual declining trend in cases.  You can see the graphic here:

On another positive note, she makes the claim that after 8 months of COVID, there has been no convincing cases of reinfection (although there have been numerous anecdotal instances that suggest reinfection). This suggests that immunity may be possible.  The immune system is very complicated, and it seems that antibodies are not the only sign that immunity might be present.

So there is much evidence, regardless of whether it is considered conclusive, that masks help to contain COVID, reduce the severity of illness, and there is a significant likelihood that 80% or higher mask compliance rates in the population would drive the transmission content to below 1, which would cause the pandemic to die out.  We have seen that countries like Taiwan, which have widespread mask wearing, have had virtually no deaths and infections (9 deaths, about 400 infections of a 20+ million population), and in Taiwan, schools and businesses are open.

Here is a link to the entire UCSF seminar (1.5 hours long):  https://youtu.be/Cio3rh6ta3w

Ironically, those who want President Trump to be reelected are, with high probability, often effectively working to diminish the likelihood of his reelection by strongly pushing back at the mask idea, thereby increasing the likelihood that the economy will not recover by election time, making his reelection less likely.  Just recently, we heard that the GDP has cratered by 38% since the beginning of the year.  It is a perfect storm, similar to what brought the defeat of one of our best presidents, Herbert Hoover, after the 1929 stock market crash.

Viewing 10 posts - 11 through 20 (of 21 total)

Login or Register to post comments