The Zeitgeist Movement
I hope that we can keep this site relatively pure of direct linkages with other movements like that. It dillutes the intellectual integrity and tireless fact checking that I have come to cherish here.
I agree with your comment Mike. I also appreciate the detailed analysis of the Zeitgeist Movement on the above posts.
Out of curiosity, I have yet to come across any mention of the Technocracy Movement on this site. Are any posters to this thread aware of that movement? M King Hubbert was involved with it back in the 1930s.
Isn’t ultimately the ZM aiming for socialism? Supposedly a ‘free’ market is bad as we can see now what it leads to. So, we should have instead "system which is ‘designed’ to support human beings… not force them to fight in order to survive". To me that sounds like a socialist society where we all have enough to survive, but extra resources will not be spent on luxury items etc.
I think in an ideal world socialism would be fine. Unfortunately someone still has to run a socialist society, and if its some of our fellow humans, I have no faith that over time there will not be any sort of corruption or poorly allocated resources, no matter how smart we are.
Although a truly free market can lead towards favoritism & corruption (as we see now), that is only if the populace is lax is in its duties to police the government and demand enforcement of the laws, and protection of everyone’s rights. I think asking our fellow citizens to care about gov’t and world events etc enough to act may be as futile as believing a socialist society will be run by benevolent rulers, but at least there is hope. With a socialist society, I KNOW that in time there will be abuse, because that is just human nature.
I think that our society is caught with references to the past failures with ‘Isms’ such as socialism. I believe the only way we can go forward is if we begin a new ideal rather than patch repair the present one; if indeed we ever can. I’ve just added more to Blind Joe’s thread that he put up on the 11th of January. The ideas from this have been very useful to me and surely deserve more debate?
Mike. I too have issues with their discussion of religion. However, I have done some research into that aspect and their work is accurate but incomplete. I have found that the religion aspect of the movie is a thought stopper for most people. This I believe it due to the strong institutionized thought processes related to most organized faiths.
For the record, I am not an atheist. It appears to me (key word ~ "appear", correct me if I am wrong, I’ll gladly accept any refutation) that you are in motive questioning mode based on what I perceive to be an offended stance regarding their treatment of faith (based on the observation that this is your leadoff objection). I would hope that you would not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Rarely do I ever agree 100% with any analysis of virtually anything, but that does not prevent me from seeking nuggets of truth within the piece of communication that I am digesting. For if it did, I would be nothing more than a nilhist, having rejected everything because nothing existed that I entirely agree with.
Second, I could not disagree more with you the inference that I sense that you find it desirable to keep other lines of thinking out of this forum. Whether you agree with any or none of the aspects of Zeitgeist, there are many cogent points in the video that are absolutely germaine to the three E’s. And that is, I presume, the thesis of this forum. The most difficult hurdle in my life was myself Mike. Myself in that I would become myopic in my thinking, refusing to entertain alternative ideas for fear that it would distract myself from "what was closest to truth". That very myopia prevented me from seeing different viewpoints, many, including the crux of Chris’ tenets, which today hold MORE validity than past paridigms of thought. Now, I would hope that you do not think that I am directing a subtle insinuation at you (just thought of that as an unintentional implication of my writing). That is not my motive. My motive is to share, as a general warning, the lost growth that I personally suffered when I myself would have at one time made a similar statement. Your motives, your thoughts, your processes I am sure are quite different than mine. And honestly, it’d be absurd to assume anything about you based on a short post. But, it’s entirely possible that someone out there might fall into the same trap that I once did by misreading or misinterpreting what you posted. And that’s where I politely take issue. I do not fear challenges to my belief system. I have actually, and through painful lessons, learned to savior them. For if my present paradigm can withstand intense intellectual assault, then I am comforted by the increase in confidence. If it cannot, then I am grateful that I was re-directed to something that either clarified, enhanced, or even restructured my thinking.
So, in short, I do not see differing viewpoints, cogent with respect to the three E’s, as a threat. I see them as critical and necessary. I even continue to challenge and re-challenge Chris’ stated beliefs. Why? To see if they continue to hold up against scrutiny and emergent information. I would hope that other’s would do the same for me. I see that several here are not keen on Zeitgeist. Fantastic. I’d rather read criticisms than affirmations. Affirmations are for egos, criticisms are a test of truth.
Points well taken, Ghandi. I have watched the entire Zeitgeist piece start to finish and I found its treatment of the Federal Reserve to be informative and interesting. I’d like to think I have a very open mind in the sense that I’m willing to listen to differing viewpoints, though that doesn’t guarantee I’m about to change my own. I believe that this forum is at its best when a wide variety of viewpoints are brought forth. I expressed my opinion and I welcome others to express theirs.
There are many nuggets of truth in Zeitgeist but my main point of contention is that I got the sense it was presented more as an expression of the author’s beliefs and ideals rather than a truly objective analysis of facts and evidence. I believe the Crash Course has done a very good job of walking the tightrope of objectivity. Perhaps Zeitgeist would consider me the most in-denial brainwashed sop out there, but I actually don’t think that religion is extremely pertinent to the primary issues at hand. At least, I believe that religious affiliations don’t need to be changed in order to deal with our most signficant challenges. The choice of juxtaposing religion with monetary systems is intriguing, but unpalatable for many and ends up hurting the points made in either half of Zeitgeist. In my opinion, it would be most effective if it presented the issues in two independent films.
Just my two cents, and thank you for the feedback you had. You can be assured that I practically never truly close off new sources of information and I have certainly enjoyed the nuggets of knowledge in the film you refer to.
im a member of The Zeitgeist Movement, and i found this great site through the Zeitgeist forums..
First of all, the whole movement has “moved away” from the first zeitgeist movie, its really not as important as the Addendum, the movies were made by Peter Joseph, and at the time he was making the first movie, i think he wasnt quite aware of The Venus Project.
Right now TZM is considered as the activist arm of TVP, so the goal of the movement is TVP and not the conspiracy stuff, which i and many other members consider a huge hinderance to the whole movement.
it is understandable that you have issues with certain parts of the movies, i myself have issues, but the basic underlying points it makes and goals and solutions it gives are extremely usefull, and i completely agree with them.
you here have made a few STANDARD “questions/statements” about “problems” which are very well addressed in the forums and in the reading and viewing and listening material on the zeitgeist movement site..
therefore i would ask you to do RESEARCH on those points on the site itself, because these “problems” you state, which you may view as IMPASSABLE are, quite easily dealt with and are actually quite naive.
i guess what im saying is youre dismissing the whole thing on the basis of a few unresearched and uneducated assumptions which actually dont really make sense in a world that TVP proposes..
another matter you must take into consideration is whether youre talking about the transitional phase from todays system to a TVP type system, or if youre talking about an implemented TVP or better said RBE(resource based economy) system, there is ofcourse a big difference between these two stages (transition and fully implemented)..
check the site, you will surely find many answers to your questions, give the movement a chance, because we all know the way things are today is leading into the abyss..
i just wanted to address the most aggressive post here, sorry for the double posting.
[quote=Zeitgeist Movement] “We intend to restore the fundamental necessities and environmental awareness of the species through the avocation of the most current understandings of who and what we truly are…” [/quote]
We immediately can see that these people’s grasp of the English language is not strong. The above piece of text is part of their organization statement, and therefore would have almost certainly been reviewed by more than one person before being released. That nobody noticed the malapropism, or even bothered to look up the meaning of a word which they did not know, means that the ranks of this organization may not have been drawn from a particularly strong academic tradition. Often this can indicate an institutional anti-intellectualism.[/quote]
yes, lets focus on an english language error and dismiss the whole thing based on that
[quote] When a serial killer is caught, most people jump up and down and scream for the death of that person. This is backwards. A truly sane society, which understands what we are and how our value systems are created, would take the individual and learn the reasons behind his or her violent actions. This information would then go to a research department which considers how to stop such conditions from occurring through education. [/quote]
Universities have been researching this for quite some time. For example, in the 1970’s a study was done of the fourteen minors then on death row in all of the United States, for unspeakably horrific murders. It was found that of these 14 youths, 12 had been severely beaten and sexually abused by their parents, and the 13th had been, at least, badly abused physically.
The solution naturally suggests itself: stop parents from abusing their children.
But nay. The Zeitgeist Movement believes it is “totally illogical” for our communities to keep prisons, police and courts. So how, then, do we stop the drunk child abusers who will shoot anybody who comes near their house? The Zeitgeist Movement is silent on the specifics.[/quote]
in an implemented TVP it would be illogical, because these problems would be partially(mostly) solved through education, but during a transition period ofcourse there will be a need for laws and prisons etc.
and you are clearly missing the point here, its not about healing the symptoms, its about finding the root cause of those symptoms and addressing the root cause, which is actually scarcity, scarcity of resources, scarcity of education etc. which is the primary cause that has led to those parents abusing their children, or its a genetic issue which has to be addressed differently.
And incidentally, university professors don’t have any kind of special security clearance. There is nothing stopping the researchers of the ZM from visiting prisons, interviewing criminals, and then deciding “how to stop such conditions from occurring through education.”[/quote]
just goes to show that you have not properly researched the movement or the people behind it, displaying your complete ignorance and obviously a lack of will to get educated on a subject before spitting criticism,
primarly im talking about Jacque Fresco and his life story, he is 93 at the moment, the man has traveled the world and lived in different extreme societies ranging from isolated islands and primitive cultures, to people believing the earth was flat, most backward rednecks, also joined the KKK and dissolved their chapter in miami in a month, joined another group for white power nazis and dissolved that group as well, worked with additcs etc.
so this man HAS visited, interviewed and actually LIVED with criminals and other types of extreme people.
watch this if you call yourself an intellectual, or as i would say, if youre not a dumbed down critic who CANT and WONT see whats right in front of his eyes and prefers to spit nonsense feeling hes all great http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRpIQ3vSNAU&feature=player_profilepage
[quote=Zeitgeist Movement] Is population growth really that bad? The answer is that from a scientific perspective the earth can handle many, many times more people if need be, once high technology is harnessed. 70% of our planet is water and cities in the sea ( one of many projects by Jacque Fresco) are the next step. [/quote]
[quote=jrf29]Are they doing anything to help figure out how to build floating cities? Or are they just throwing stones, and hoping that “somebody else” will figure out how to build the floating metropoli? Everybody would like to see floating train stations, floating ore refineries, and floating baseball parks! Will the raw materials come from floating forests and floating coal mines?[/quote]
actually yes, Jacque has many many designs and solutions, but also has his reasons for not publishing those in todays capitalistim society which would only take advantage of such ideas to make a profit.
The statement above reveals a degree of utter ignorance which simply begs to be poked fun at. We are not running out of physical space on the earth, we are running out of resources. We don’t need floating cities. We need to figure out a way not to destroy the earth while extracting the resources that humans need to live. An individual human needs a certain amount of resources: a certain amount of carbon, a certain amount of protein, a certain amount of daily water. The ZM’s lack of understanding even of the fundamental nature of the resource problems facing us now begins to lend greater weight to the speculation regarding their anti-intellectualism. They claim to have ultimate faith in science and technology, but are ignorant of scientific principles. That makes them seem more like a religion. [/quote]
and again pure ignorance of the whole movement and primarly The Venus Project, the floating cities are not about running out of physical space, but an idea of what could be done, especially in the case of wanting to preserve land as natural and not defiled by humans.
there is no lack of understanding of resource problems, you obviously dont understand how much of todays resources are WASTED, things made non recyclable, this is a major issue that TVP aims to address,
and lets not forget, LUXURY items like a yacht or a car in a TVP world arent meant as MY POSSESION, MY PROPERTY, to have MY car sit in a parking lot for 8 hours a day while i work is a COMPLETE waste of resources, in a TVP world you would take a car, yacht or whatever WHEN u need it, and just return it when u dont need it, so others could use it (not wasting resources on making all those cars and yachts and have them waste time and resources just rotting away on a parking lot or a port)
[quote=Zeitgeist Movement] “We can continue to stomp on the ants coming out from under the refrigerator, but until we remove the spoiled food behind it, they are just going to keep coming.” [/quote]
Everything that the Zeitgeist Movement says seems to end up on this note. Much hot air, and no concrete ideas. If they have any real ideas, what are they? If these ideas work, then why don’t they demonstrate them on a group of people? “The Government” doesn’t have a monopoly on that thing called education! If they have ideas which will cause the great mass of people to work without pay, then why don’t they demonstrate them?
They have an open invitation to come to my town. The town selectmen may appoint them as a “special educational committee”, so it will all be official, and they can then go forth into the community, stamp out all crime, and cause people to be willing to work without pay. Come, please. Come to our town and show how this works. Any time.
again your lack of knowledge, there is an experimental city planned, but its not happening soon, the movement isnt RICH (has a lot of money) and cant just go about making a city without resources, but thats beside the point.
the movement isnt LOCAL its not meant to be for a community, even though there are many communities of that type around the world, and even people from the movement advocating the creation of such communities, but the reasons why Peter Joseph and Jacque and Roxanne arent promoting this is
you may make an isolated community thats self sustainable, but the problem is, its still on the planet earth, and it will inevitably be forced to ineract with the outside world, what good is your community if a nuclear bomb is dropped near you, or if a toxic spill polutes your water supply or any of the other global issues that may rise, just imagine a city with people living comfortable lives, while outside you have food shortages, no energy, riots, wars etc. that city will most definitely get invaded..
and another note, you cant just rip the system out of the people, they are too conditioned and too dumbed down, first of all they must be willing to change, and thats what this movement is about, spreading awareness, educating people about the world, and that it doesnt have to be like this, and the Crash Course on this site is a great eye opener which i will most definitely use before i introduce people to The Venus Project.
and please at least watch the link i provided, here it is again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRpIQ3vSNAU&feature=player_profilepage
The movement is brilliant, but society is not mature enough to handle it yet. Well, probably the American society could not handle it. With all the vanity and materialism pumped into their minds. The U.S. teaches this “me me me” mentality.
Look at the human body as a perfect example as to how society should designed and act. The human body does not compete, it’s not greedy or corrupt. It distributes all resources intelligently, there is no upper 1% getting all the blood, o2 and so on.
When people move away from the primitive money based society, I think a lot of the fundamentals of the ZM will emerge.
Good comments, all. I liked the ZG movies and have referred them to many. I salute Peter Joseph’s creativity and allow for issues I’m not quite on side for, but open to explore.
What I am hung up on is how do we effect change, now? I like what he he points out…..
The elite power systems are little affected in the long run by traditional protest and political movements. We must move beyond these ‘establishment rebellions’ and work with a tool much more powerful: We will stop supporting the system, while constantly advocating knowledge, peace, unity and compassion.
To this end, I have removed my cash from the banking system and bought PM’s. In doing this, the false banking system is deprived of my money to ‘fractionally reserve’ multiply it into a a much higher amount to be issued as new debt upon fellow citizens, and have recommended the same, here on the CM site, that we all do this.
By Constitutional decree, government is supposed to be creating our money and they can do this debt-free. Do we miss the disconnect that by leaving our money in the banks, we are by default, perpetuating this system of debt, which is sinking the whole world?
Would like to hear other suggestions for effecting change. Thank for the post, Morpheus.
regarding the zeitgeist movement
this is probably the most relevant thing to see, for people familiar with the movement