The Ugly Side of Precious Metals

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  • Thu, Sep 29, 2011 - 01:21am

    #11
    ao

    ao

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    it ain’t physical

[quote=heffe]

This to me, demonstrates the lack of critical thinking within the older generations. 

[/quote]

This statement, to me, demonstrates a lack of critical thinking and an age discrimination bias (or to use more contemporary parlance that you may be more familiar with, elder hate). 

If you’re in poverty at age 24 (i.e. beyond age 18), you bear at least SOME responsibility.

You may work harder than anyone you know and you may not but if you have all the free time to post as much as you do, you’re definitely not working as hard as some people I know or knew.

Your generation will make many of the same mistakes that your parents’ and grandparents’ generation did because many mistakes are inherent to the state of being human and not dependent on passage of time, evolution, technology, cognitive learning, or any other factor independent of humanness. 

That’s not to say one should not work on change but understand that change starts with changing the internal condition, not the external condition.  Thinking the opposite is like thinking that action precedes intention.

P.S. I wonder if free will allows the evil of governing syntax error of which there seems to be no scarcity?    

  • Thu, Sep 29, 2011 - 02:10am

    #12
    plato1965

    plato1965

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      We can produce more

leelilly – yup. Good point.. it’s too fundamental to talk about.. but ethics is the silent 4th E ..

 We can produce more than enough food to feed the world, yet there is not enough money to pay for it all.

 I think it’s the other way around.. in the long term. The bernank cannot print wheat… not even a 100g packet of Ramen..

 last temptation of the bernank… turn this monetary calculus (stone) into bread.

  Ron paul: " is wheat food… ?"

 Bernank:. ……. No.

…  it’s a nutritional asset..

Paul: why do central bakeries hold bread. ?

 Benny: it’s err.. tradition.,. awaiting future paper from BB.  "starvation.,. making sure IT doesn’t happen here"

  The morality of PM speculation.. meh! but the idea that the wealthy can outbid the poor for food….. there my libertarian ideals bite the dust.. speculators rush in to corner, where angels fear to tread.

  good vid from J & J

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_VzY6-3R80

  • Thu, Sep 29, 2011 - 12:16pm

    #13

    Retha Scott

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    Choices

 Choices….once you can acknowledge the world as it is…the choices available to each and every individial on this planet are the same…

1) Accept (or not)  Most of the population opts for the path of least resistance, accepts the way things are, maintains the status quo. Those that do not accept life ‘the way it is’  jump to choice # 3 Change.

2) Adapt  (or not) – go with the flow based on acceptance of ones life’s ‘facts’ – or – spend time filled with resentment and blame their situation on those you believe are unfairly ‘given’ opportunity or born to a ‘better’ life.  Those who choose not to adapt are usually those you find in prison. 

3) Change (or not) –  No matter if you accept your given situation or not – change is always a choice each and every individual can make.  Some choose to change, some choose not to change.  Change begins from within your own thoughts, desires and beliefs. Personal situations are variable, consequences are variable, but making a choice to change is, always has been and always will be a choice.

Wrong or right in others choices?  Not for me to judge, I make my own choices based on my life circumstances.  No matter where you live, how much money or stuff you have or don’t have, whether your country is a dictatorship, democracy or monarchy, whether you live in a mansion or a hut, whether you’re christian or muslim, whether you are black, white, brown or purple, whether you own a big or small business or are an employee…we all have choices.

Each one of us has a story,  I would tell you mine, but I don’t have tissue handy.  And while many of our choices may be forced upon us due to other’s poor choices (ie fed, politicians)  we are all in this together.  We all still have choices.  

 

 

 

 

 

  • Thu, Sep 29, 2011 - 03:24pm

    #14
    tictac1

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    For Heffe

Your rebuttal doesn’t seem to address the ideas I presented, only the language used.  I won’t argue semantics.

I will say, your opinion of "rags to riches" being the exception is completely bogus, based on my experience.  My parents lived in Compton.  I’ve lived in a couple ghettos.  My mom flipped burgers to pay for our school books, and the IRS confiscated our vehicles.  My father has lived in poverty almost his entire life.  Yet I make more money than I need, as does my brother.  My uncle, who dropped out of high school (and from the same dirt-poor family as my dad) worked his way to being the president of a large corporation.  Yeah, dude, we won the lottery, it had nothing to do with our work ethic.  That’s just insulting.  What we DID was work harder AND smarter than the people around us.  And we didn’t pay attention to nay-sayers.  We did this WITHOUT screwing people over.

Among my fellow employees, there are MANY people that came from poor families.  Some of the guys have relatives in Appalachia living in plywood shacks.  The difference isn’t circumstance or birth right, it’s vision, sacrifice, and plain old hard work.

You got rich friends?  Why aren’t you building relationships with them?  Find out what makes them tick, what businesses they’re in, and then make yourself into someone they want to bring in.  PROVE yourself indespensible, someone they need to help their businesses be successful.  Stop spending time with people that are going no where in life.  That one thing made a huge difference for me, as misery loves company.

Or, be content with your current position in life.  There’s no shame in that!  In fact, poverty brings a certain freedom, I know this from personal experience.

But stop saying "I can’t".  That is defeatist crap.  Start saying "I WILL".

PS- "Greed and competition are not immutable human temperament; they are in fact, created and maintained by the kind of money we are using…."  This is flat-out wrong.  Greed and competition are evidence of the human condition, and pre-date any sort of money system.

  • Thu, Sep 29, 2011 - 09:27pm

    #15
    heffe

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    Rebuttal to tictac and plato

I will say, your opinion of "rags to riches" being the exception is completely bogus, based on my experience.  My parents lived in Compton.  I’ve lived in a couple ghettos.  My mom flipped burgers to pay for our school books, and the IRS confiscated our vehicles.  My father has lived in poverty almost his entire life.  Yet I make more money than I need, as does my brother.  My uncle, who dropped out of high school (and from the same dirt-poor family as my dad) worked his way to being the president of a large corporation.  Yeah, dude, we won the lottery, it had nothing to do with our work ethic.  That’s just insulting.  What we DID was work harder AND smarter than the people around us.  And we didn’t pay attention to nay-sayers.  We did this WITHOUT screwing people over.

 

Wow, anything you forget to consider?  Maybe the economic situation?  All these people, including yourself and your brother, got wealthy during economic expansion.  You also havent considered the occurences required for all the success stories you had listed to happen. Im trying, Im trying hard, yet no opportunities have arisen. Your assumptions can be termed as ‘blaiming the victim’. 

Among my fellow employees, there are MANY people that came from poor families.  Some of the guys have relatives in Appalachia living in plywood shacks.  The difference isn’t circumstance or birth right, it’s vision, sacrifice, and plain old hard work.

More self serving rhetoric. Im sure you have a very specified range of choices, ignoring those examples where someone working hard doesn’t get anywhere. The last sentence is insulting, what a douche.  [Moderator’s note: *ahem*]  I know without a doubt my abilities far exceed 99% of the population, I am far smarter and far more motivated to better this world, yet those opportunities are far and few in between.  All your success stories neglect the era in which they occured, forgetting the ease of economic access of those times.

You got rich friends?  Why aren’t you building relationships with them?  Find out what makes them tick, what businesses they’re in, and then make yourself into someone they want to bring in.  PROVE yourself indespensible, someone they need to help their businesses be successful.  Stop spending time with people that are going no where in life.  That one thing made a huge difference for me, as misery loves company.

Well, one rich friend about went to jail for intent to sell cocaine, but his momma could afford a lawyer to get him out. Then his momma bought a building, payed for her son to go to school, and then gave that building to her son to run a bike shop. All of these are circumstancial occurences. I am more capable then this rich boy and yet he’s got the access I dont.  Im not trying to play the blame game, Im presenting the events as they unfold. And as far as working with them, I’d rather work with the local produce stand.  Rich folk tend to have a snobby disposition of which I cannot stand. 

   In fact, poverty brings a certain freedom, I know this from personal experience.

Oh really?? Try having temporal lobe epilepsy with over $10,000 in medical bills with no help financially. I dont have very much freedom in poverty. I want to see my family, though I dont have the money to do so.  I try to save money to afford a trip, but with no medical insurance and a constant array of medical needs, I have never been able to ‘get my head out of water’.  My freedom is very limited due to this monetary economic paradigm.

PS- "Greed and competition are not immutable human temperament; they are in fact, created and maintained by the kind of money we are using…."  This is flat-out wrong.  Greed and competition are evidence of the human condition, and pre-date any sort of money system.

Wow, you have never studied anything regarding archeological evidence, or anthropology, or psychology?  The majority of hominid existence has been in the form of egalitarian, foraging tribes. Its only been in the last 1% of our existence that we developed city-states, monetary exchange, and organized group violence.

Your still ignoring the statement by Lietier.  What he is describing is known as ‘artifical scarcity’ and this is a reference to plato’s uncritical analysis, as well.   Grocery stores throw away millions of pounds of food every year, simply because it spoils from not being purchased. There are approx. 5 million homeless in the US, while we have about 19 million vacant homes. We already have abundance of resources, but our monetary-market systems require scarcity to exist, even if its artifical scarcity.

Lastly, whats most amusing about all this is my expertise in free market economics. I produce a high demand commodity that is a closer approximation of free markets than anyone here. I know about maintaining cost efficiency, managing time and resource allocation, managing distribution and communication, and everything about business fundamentals. I also know what its like to have ‘moochers’; non-producers that want what you have even though they contributed nothing. What I have learned is that fighting the non-producers will get you no where.  Locking up your goods and defending them is backwards, it will never work in the long run.

So what worked?  Sharing, open discussion, and motivating them to produce for themselves.  Not hoarding, not being greedy, but sharing, and helping them to realize their wrongs. Being kind and generous, a newly found characteristic of much more intelligent generations.

  • Thu, Sep 29, 2011 - 09:59pm

    #16

    Retha Scott

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    lol heffe

Sorry, I have to say something…

heffe, you are full of yourself, honey.  Take it down a notch.  Save these posts and look back on them in 25 years…attitude is everything.  Arrogant self-promotion will only keep you down.  You are no better or worse than me or anyone else in this world.  See my post above.  While you try to change the world, remember, you can’t do it alone.  And you won’t be able to do it with just 20 somethings.  We are all in this together.  Yes, you are smart and obviously well educated.  But, that does not replace life experience, you would be wise to utilitze the wisdom of those around you.   You along with millions of others are suffering from this economic crisis.  Many more will follow.  Step down off your pedestal, knock that chip off your shoulder & build up your community resources – work on your preparations.  The crap in the world is the crap in the world.  Either you will prepare for what’s coming or you will be a victim.  You can argue the ‘points’ all day long, but that won’t change the global situation.  Spend time getting prepared instead of posting insulting & combative discussions about subjects you can’t do anything about.  

  • Thu, Sep 29, 2011 - 11:16pm

    #17

    Dogs_In_A_Pile

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    heffe in the “Big Chair”

[quote=heffe]

More self serving rhetoric. Im sure you have a very specified range of choices, ignoring those examples where someone working hard doesn’t get anywhere. The last sentence is insulting, what a douche. 

<snip>

And as far as working with them, I’d rather work with the local produce stand.  Rich folk tend to have a snobby disposition of which I cannot stand. 

<snip>

So what worked?  Sharing, open discussion, and motivating them to produce for themselves.  Not hoarding, not being greedy, but sharing, and helping them to realize their wrongs. Being kind and generous, a newly found characteristic of much more intelligent generations.

[/quote]

Why don’t you try more of that last approach here?

Interesting?  The approach you take in the first two snips are at odds with what you say in the third.

You come on to the site insulting people right and left, then let on you have a significant personal challenge and apologize for venting your spleen.  Guess what, we all have a cross to bear in some form or fashion.

Then you go back to your original modus operandi, call someone a douche, generalize "rich folk" as being snobby, and basically spare no effort to take swipes at everyone around you???  And wonder why your reception here is frosty?

Dude, are you here to spread heat or light?  You will get nowhere with the former, and you might be shocked at where you can get with the latter.

Two lines from Robert Hunter, interpreted by the late, great San Francisco prophet Jerome John Garcia….

"Talk about your plenty, talk about your ills, one man gathers what another man spills"

"Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right"

 

PS – I forgot to add….I flagged your post.  You don’t get to call people like tictac a douche.

  • Thu, Sep 29, 2011 - 11:29pm

    #18
    tictac1

    tictac1

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    “Not hoarding, not being

"Not hoarding, not being greedy, but sharing, and helping them to realize their wrongs. Being kind and generous, a newly found characteristic of much more intelligent generations."

On this we can agree, except for the part about it being new.  I too am a student of history.

You say your abilities are superior to 99% of us.  If that’s true, here’s my challenge to you.  Scrape up enough money to come to CA.  I will personally find you a job.  Our plant is going to be hiring, I think the starting pay is about $23/hr, but people make far more than that the first year due to overtime.  I also know a successful business man who is looking for an intelligent person with exclellent reading and diagnostic skills to run a water treatment process and trouble shoot other systems.  You will have to get dirty too.

If you come out here, and are "all that", and still don’t get hired, I will pay your airfare back and give you some spending money.  If, however, you are not hireable because of a criminal past, an ego that does not permit you to work with others, or simply aren’t smart enough, you are on your own.

This is the deal, will you accept it?

  • Fri, Sep 30, 2011 - 12:45am

    #19

    Moderator Jason

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    Hello heffe and tictac

Hello heffe and tictac,

A post was flagged here, causing me to read the whole thread. Let me share my philosophy with both of you:

(1) Keeping a conversation civil and non-confrontational is the responsibility of all users, at all times. Calling another user a "douche" is not likely to help any conversation become more civil. Heffe, you think you know where the line is between civility and incivility? Now, I suggest that you take two steps back from it, firmly into the "safe" zone.  Let me warn you that if you become a user who chronically attracts the moderators’ attention with borderline behavior, your tenure here will be short.

(2) At the same time, users should try to interact with each other in a way that will not bring out the other person’s weaknesses.  In other words, try not to push each other’s buttons.  Tictac, starting off with the sentence "I will say your opinion of rags to riches being the exception is completely bogus," you might as well have written, "Heffe, you’re just personally a loser, because success is pretty do-able for everybody else." If I was strapped for money and really felt that I couldn’t find the opportunities which I believed I was trying hard to find, I might not have called you a douche, but I might have thought it. A little tact never hurts.

Both of you, thanks for your help in keeping things civil. Feel free to contact me any time, of course.

Jason

P.S. – tictac, that is an extremely generous and kind offer, if you really mean it.

  • Fri, Sep 30, 2011 - 01:54am

    #20

    herewego

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    It’s not easy…

to think clearly about "having" and "not having".  We humans have torn up ourselves, our communities, our countries and our planet over this issue for many centuries.  Now, with the financial world we are used to quaking under our feet, it’s even harder.  I have not been able to get a grip on the ethics of having for quite some time, especially regarding PMs.  I appreciate that some in the Martenson community are considering and communicating on this topic.

I don’t think it’s an either/or situation.  Yes, we have some inherent choice within the circumstances we are born into AND yes, our circumstances surely do heavily impact us.  It’s not necessary or accurate to deny either our innate capacity for decision or our human vulnerability to hardship.  Both exist.  We make our way through the world grappling with both.

It seems clear to me that many "deserving" people are losing ground doing just what used to make them comfortably middle or working-class folks.  It’s also clear that people around the world live in poverty that is explicitly caused by economic behaviors of the affluent.  It’s not going to move our understanding forward much to just accuse all the strugglers of  victimhood.  It’s more complex than that by far. 

Sometimes I get a fleeting glimpse of a species (mine) that is not afraid to cooperate, fully, until we get the job (A decent life for everyone? An intact biosphere?  "A world worth inheriting."?) done.  That glimpse makes me weep with longing.  I don’t see the downside of that way.  We just don’t seem to know how to get there yet.  Then it’s back to the task of prepping, including what to do about those pesky PMs.

There’s a point in here somewhere….  This issue is not personal folks.  Class has been hampering humans for a long time!  We have all been very influenced by our backgrounds and it shows. That’s to be expected.  We can explore our reactions to the social/environmental costs of PMs, agree, disagree, have strong feelings etc. in good company with each other.  Maybe we will gain some ground together.  Thanks for trying.

Susan

 

 

 

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