The Situation in Ferguson, MO

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  • Wed, Aug 20, 2014 - 08:36pm

    #61

    Ready

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    cmartenson wrote:The witness

[quote=cmartenson]

  1. The witness who shot the video saw the officer do the deed and ID'ed that guy there on the right as the officer involved, and this video was shot just moments after the shooting so the 'whisked away'…was that within seconds, or a minute afterwards?  Because if it was a minute or more afterwards, then this guy could be him.
  2. I trust my own eyes…check out these images.

 

[/quote]

I have a few concerns about that video, but I'll keep it to the discussion at hand. In the interview, she says she witnessed the whole thing, then ran in to her house to get her cell phone, and was shooting in 30 seconds. 

The video shows lots of activity – multiple police and folks standing by, a yellow police tape cordoning off a very large area (this at the 20 second mark, so that must have taken 10 seconds), stuff like that. I don't see how that is all possible in 30 seconds. So no, I do not believe there is trustable continuity here with this video or witness.

As to point #2, I'll submit your eyes are better than mine. 

  • Wed, Aug 20, 2014 - 09:18pm

    #62

    thc0655

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    Clearing law enforcement shootings

Cops cleared more than 400 times per year in fatal shootings:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/19/law-enforcement-officers-cleared-more-than-400-tim/

But don't get your hopes up that the objective Holder DOJ will necessarily find Officer Darren Wilson justified (in 100% of 150 FBI shootings the DOJ finds the agents justified):

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/19/us/in-150-shootings-the-fbi-deemed-agents-faultless.html?_r=0

  • Wed, Aug 20, 2014 - 09:24pm

    #63
    Chris Martenson

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    Not what I see

[quote=Ready]

 

The video shows lots of activity – multiple police and folks standing by, a yellow police tape cordoning off a very large area (this at the 20 second mark, so that must have taken 10 seconds), stuff like that. I don't see how that is all possible in 30 seconds. So no, I do not believe there is trustable continuity here with this video or witness.

[/quote]

Not before the obvious cut it doesn't…I always assume a video cut has the probability of having a time jump to it….  

  • Wed, Aug 20, 2014 - 09:47pm

    #64

    thc0655

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    Selective attention paid to shootings

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/081914-713967-obama-remarks-on-michael-brown-shooting.htm?p=full

  • Thu, Aug 21, 2014 - 02:52am

    #65
    ommm

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    My experience is different

[quote=cmartenson]

Not once could I detect him reacting to a facial injury.  He never touches, holds or even briefly rubs his facial area.  While he could be in some form of shock, my experience is that even then people will usually hold or touch an injured area, especially when it's to their head/facial region.

His hands are on his hips and going through the usual motions associated with pacing.

I'm open to some other interpretations (like maybe that's not him in the video?) but the guy I see does not have a major injury to his face.

Just saying.

[/quote]

I respectfully disagree with your contention.  Could you share what your experience is in such matters?  Also, do you have medical training and/or have you personally been involved in an intense struggle involving facial injury?

From my experience (which is firsthand in both receiving and dealing out punishment), some people will not even feel much at the time or immediately afterwards when involved in an intense fight or life threatening altercation due to adrenalin, shock, other matters (intense emotional feelings or other greater concerns), etc.  Often the pain won't impact them significantly until later or the next day.  Also, the face touching/holding/rubbing is a function of the individual's toughness (both mental and physical such as their pain threshold and whether their genetics includes such variants as the DRD1 gene) and their training (also both mental and physical such as neck strength and jaw strength.).  I've been hit in the face full power and it barely even registered.  I was too intent on taking out the other guy.  I did feel it the next day though and I felt it a lot but the other guy felt it a whole lot more and was unable to function very well so that was some small consolation.  Among other injuries in these kinds of circumstances, I had a medial collateral ligament torn from a kick in a match but it barely registered and I won the match but I could hardly walk the next day.  How many fighters hold or touch or rub their face after being hit very hard?  Very few … generally only the ones who aren't cut out for it.  The whimpier they are, the more they'll express pain.

Also, there's no way you can tell from that particular video whether he sustained a facial bone fracture or not unless it was something catastrophic where his head would be caved in.  Bleeding is no indication of injury since a bloody nose can look bad but be very minor while a depressed skull fracture can have no obvious external bleeding but be extremely serious.  One can often have considerable injury, even an ultimately fatal injury (small caliber weapon injury like Ronald Reagan, traumatic head injury, traumatic internal hemorrhaging, etc.) and seem relatively unscathed at the time only to expire later on.

If you can offer evidence for your contention, I'd be open to hearing it but I have to admit, it sounds more like opinion not based on hard facts.

 

 

  • Thu, Aug 21, 2014 - 04:55am

    #66
    sand_kitty

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    “Unnamed source” reports facial fracture on FoxNews

FoxNews.com reports

Darren Wilson, the Ferguson, Mo., police officer … suffered severe facial injuries, including an orbital (eye socket) fracture, and was nearly beaten unconscious by Brown moments before firing his gun, a source close to the department's top brass told FoxNews.com.

 

“The Assistant (Police) Chief took him to the hospital, his face all swollen on one side,” said the insider. “He was beaten very severely.” 

Wilson suffered a fractured eye socket in the fracas….

But the official Police Department spokesman still cannot comment:

A spokesman for the St. Louis County Police Department, citing the ongoing investigation, declined late Wednesday to say whether Wilson required medical treatment following the altercation.

Edward Magee, spokesman for St. Louis County Prosecutor Robert McCullough, said the office will not disclose the nature of the evidence it will reveal to a grand jury.

"We'll present every piece of evidence we have, witness statements, et cetera, to the grand jury, and we do not release any evidence or talk about evidence on the case."

 

And now ABC also:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/ferguson-shooting-grand-jury-decide-october-charge-cop/story?id=25047905

 

  • Thu, Aug 21, 2014 - 05:36am

    #67
    davefairtex

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    getting hit

I have to agree with omm here.  The adrenaline immediately after a fight is really intense – and not just for a few minutes, either.  The "high" can last for hours, depending on the experience.  And as he says, stuff that you don't feel at the moment comes back to bite you hard the next day.  Not that I'm a great fighter, but I have done a lot of sparring sessions and I've been hit an unfortunate number of times.  And a few competitions as well.  The high after a competition is really intense, and is probably why people do them, and it lasts for quite a while.  I was high for 8 hours after one of my competitions – my nose was badly bruised, but I didn't even know until I looked in the mirror an hour later.

Perhaps one of our friendly LEOs can speak to adrenaline effects on pain in more real-life situations.

One time I remember probing an injury was when I was hit with a hook to the jaw – because whenever I opened my mouth it made a clicking noise.  It didn't particularly hurt (at that moment), but I was a bit worried: was my jaw going to click for the rest of my life?  [Answer: no, it just lasted 3 days]

Some injuries are much more immediately impactful, but not immediately painful.  I was knocked down once by a punch to the jaw (again) and there was no pain, I just remember falling backwards and landing on my butt wondering a bit how I got there.  I was a bit stunned, but I got up and continued with no ill effects that I remember.  Next 3 days: nasty headache.

A fighter once described shots that don't take you out immediately as "generalized nonspecific damage" which often hurt at the moment of impact (and will add up over minutes), but moments later are pretty much washed out generally by adrenaline.  Its the disabling shots (solar plexus, genitals, lungs, or something that makes the brain move) that have immediate effect, but even those unless they crack ribs (making it painful to breathe – I had that happen too) you don't even feel those after the immediate effects wear off.

Moral: don't expect generalized nonspecific damage to disable anyone (and that punch to the face would qualify, since the cop wasn't knocked out) if you are in a fight for your life.  Unless you want to wear him down over a 3-minute period…

Could that cop have been punched in the face, bone cracked, and not feel it 5-10 minutes afterwards?  Sure.  He might not really feel it until the next day.

  • Thu, Aug 21, 2014 - 07:50am

    #68
    David Allan

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    The fish stinks from the head down

As an outsider (non US citizen) I find this discussion fascinating and disturbing, My father in law still thinks of the US as the country that helped the allies win WW2. Times have changed and I have to agree with ckessel – comment 52 – that this is a systemic issue which is a consequence of top level corruption. I also agree that it is something we all ought to factor into our preparations. Taking a wider perspective I guess this is useful (but concerning) insight into where we are along the arc of this empire

I've had a number of 'realignment' moments on the journey

– realizing the probable steepness of the decline side of the oil curve 

-learning some implications of tipping points and potential cascading collapse of infrastructure (David Korowicz work on complex systems)

– climate change

– the potential for nuclear fallout from unattended waste and power plants

In my country we don't have anything like the US scale of lack of accountability and abuse of power. However this is certainly another realignment moment for me – I'm just not sure how I'll integrate it yet

PS. I really appreciate Chris's comment #34. This could easily be the basis for a full article. It is time to have the discussion.

  • Thu, Aug 21, 2014 - 09:39am

    #69

    thc0655

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    Facial injury

In a basketball game pursuing a loose ball I collided with another player.  His forehead hit my cheek under my eye. I got the ball, passed off and the game went on.  We went up and down the court I guess about three more times until the referee looked at me and called time out.  He came over to me and told me I was bleeding.  I must've been quite a sight to behold.  I had a nice cut under my eye that later required 4 stitches, and being a facial cut it had been bleeding profusely the whole time we continued playing. Unaware of the cut (just the headache) I kept using my wristbands to soak up the "sweat" coming off my face (except it was blood and it must've looked like my head exploded: blood all over my face, chest and arms).

If you think that's good, I've got another one for you smiley:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLjNzwEULG8

  • Thu, Aug 21, 2014 - 12:37pm

    #70
    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

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    Possibly…

[quote=davefairtex]

(…)

One time I remember probing an injury was when I was hit with a hook to the jaw – because whenever I opened my mouth it made a clicking noise.  It didn't particularly hurt (at that moment), but I was a bit worried: was my jaw going to click for the rest of my life?  [Answer: no, it just lasted 3 days]

Some injuries are much more immediately impactful, but not immediately painful.  I was knocked down once by a punch to the jaw (again) and there was no pain, I just remember falling backwards and landing on my butt wondering a bit how I got there.  I was a bit stunned, but I got up and continued with no ill effects that I remember.  Next 3 days: nasty headache.

[/quote]

Having done both basic and wilderness EMT training, as well as a stint in the ER as part of my pathology/medical training (although that was less relevant to the topic at hand), one of the basic skills of assessment we were drilled with was to observe the patient. 

Often even though they might be saying "I'm fine" we were especially directed to observe what the patient's hands were doing if they were conscious and alert.

After assuring that the patient was not in shock, checking for all the usual signs of dangerously low blood pressure, next comes the scan for what the issue(s) might be.

Part of the training was to take anything the patient said with a grain of salt, because they might not report any pain but still have considerable damage.  But the hands are the tell.

Your description of probing your jaw is a classic example…with observation there's a very good chance your hands were giving clear signs of where your injury was even though a direct question to you, and your experience, would have resulted in an apparently truthful response of  "I'm fine."  As far as your pain perception went, that was the truth.

Once on a vacation trip to Bermuda, my lovely wife drove our rented scooter straight into the corner of a stone church.  That detail is irrelevant, but I always include it.  I got there within a minute of the accident and was on scene before any emergency personnel to find her alert but somewhat disoriented, with her right hand traveling all over her left shoulder, probing and cradling as we talked. 

When I asked if anything was hurt she said no.  She wanted to tell me about the circumstances of the accident, how it happened, and her general embarrassment at being in this situation.  Her primary concern seemed to be not wanting to be a burden on anyone or a cause for commotion.   I asked about her left shoulder and she said it was find and lifted her arm a couple of times to prove it.

No wincing, no obvious distress, but her right hand kept going back, holding it.  I notified the ambulance crew of a probable injury and they took extra care to immobilize the shoulder for transport.  At the hospital x-rays showed a compound fracture of the humerus.  3 big pieces and a variety of smaller ones.

At the time she didn't feel a thing.  I have tremendous respect for the power of adrenaline and shock to mask the conscious perception of pain.  But our hands have some connection to our unconscious and that's why we watch them.  

Same is true for law enforcement personnel I've known who are on the lookout for people who might be threats.  One told me that if he walks into a crowded room, a bar or some other chaotic hard to quickly process scene, that he watches the hands of the people in the room.  Except for highly trained people who can mask their hands, they are a great place to start one's assessment.

So, yeah, while the game is still in motion or the fight is on I can easily imagine slight to moderate injuries being ignored even by the hands but my experience is that after the fact, when the direct action is over, that the hands will give you clues.

Not always, but it's part of my observational kit and something I rely on.

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