The Fundamental Problem

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  • Tue, Oct 28, 2008 - 01:23pm



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    Re: The Fundamental Problem


A voluntary society is only a dream. There are only two means of escape: leave the territory or commit suicide.


Thanks, and that I think is the point at which we must part company. "Field of Dreams" was fiction, but I go along with the principle that in order to achieve pretty well anything, one must first dream, or imagine, it. Then engage in a rational course of action to make it happen. Then "they will come."

I’m not interested in leaving either America or life; I’m interested in helping liberate America.

It’s only too easy to see the monstrous power of government and wonder how it could possibly be overcome – but when we do so, we forget that in true truth govenment has no power or resource whatsoever, except that which its victims consent to provide for it. When that support is withdrawn, it will necessarily cease to exist.

Check out – it’s a means both to learn why such support is ill-placed, and quietly, peacefully and systematically to spread that understanding until nobody is left to provide it.








  • Tue, Oct 28, 2008 - 02:37pm



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    Re: The Fundamental Problem

Majormoney & DurangoKid,

I partly agree with both of you.  It’s great we want to continue the human race, but we are a species nonetheless and therefore should not be regarded as anything more.  I believe we have an innate desire to continue the human race since I believe we are only vehicles for the propagation of our genes ("The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins).  If we look at the human species as we look upon others, then we must ask ourselves why we desire any particular species to "survive".  Why?

Thousands, maybe millions, of species come into existence every day and maybe just as many go out of existence every day.  If we regard all species in the same way, then why are we so beleaguered with our own species?  Why does our species take primacy over others?  Does it make sense?  Is it rational to believe this?

The human species, I used to think, was intelligent.  But I now think otherwise.  Most species depend upon their surrounding species for their existence.  Their "intelligence" is proven by the results of they symbiotic activities.  I’m not sure we have passed on the genes necessary for the survival of the human species, i.e., we have not managed to properly interact with our environment which is necessary for our survival.  This means the human race has a very high probability of ending.  Leaving ethics, morals, and virtues aside, we can be sure that, logically and scientifically, we will end as a human race if we continue down this path.

All those "save the planet" people are wrong. The planet will still be here long after the demise of the human race.  We, as a human race, believe ourselves to be superior in intelligence but intelligence is nothing without the existence of a body.  Maybe there has been a glitch somewhere.  It’s plausible that the necessary genes have not been passed down.  If they have been successfully passed down and we possess the inherent information to become symbiotic, then something powerful has overridden this programming– maybe religion?

What I’m trying to say is that we do not regard other species in the same light as ours.  But in order to survive, rationally speaking, we must procure other species as we would ours.

It’s probably too late to attempt to recover from this idea of "humans are special".  We’re no more special than a tree.  The genes gave us our "ego" and "eccentricity" to give us the determination  keep living.  It was in the genes’ very interest for us to continue down this path.  But the genes, of course are not infallible, and have not imagined this ego trip of ours would supersede necessary and sufficient responses to other species.

The human race is not "special".  We can go extinct just as any other species.  Somehow people just don’t believe that could ever happen- which is very odd to me.

Ask yourself a few questions to see where you stand on the issue and whether you are rational or irrational to matter of the human species.

1.  Do you feel the human species is special?

2.  Why?

3. …or in What ways?

4.  Do you believe all those "save the planet" people really want to save the planet or are they really saying "save me"?

5.  …or is it that by "saving the planet" we are saving ourselves?

6.  Do you or do you believe that we must depend upon other species for our survival?  If not, then what do you depend up on for the survival of you and/or the human species.

7.  If you are in the camp of people who are not worried about "saving the human race", then how do you feel about your children’s children’s children’s children?  Do you "care" or do you think it will just "work itself out when the time comes".

If the human race doesn’t have any qualms about the suffering of millions of people, and you have the stomach to watch mass starvation, then keep propogating.  Our genes are smart enough to initiate their own forms of population control.  It may not be something we would like to see.  Disease is one form and cancer is another.  Somehow scientists and religious people think they can "outsmart" the genes by irradicating cancer or viruses and bacteria.  Cancer, viruses, and bateria are not "bad" or "evil" things.  We just place a value on these occurances, when in fact we should’ve just taken the hint in the first place.  Reduce popluation…. blah, blah, blah….


  • Fri, Oct 31, 2008 - 12:16pm



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    Re: The Fundamental Problem

A nice one, caroline_culbert!

Yes, I think we’re special. But then, probably a dog thinks the same, and that we are there just to provide his species a useful service. The blades of grass on my lawn may have a different view.

But it’s hard to prove we’re special, without leaping into mythology and inventing a god who said it was so. The first reason that comes to my mind is: Brahms. Whale songs are simply not in the same class.

Perhaps the only way to substantiate the claim of special-ness is to reason that we humans have adapated our environment to our own purposes to an unique degree, many orders of magnitude better than any other species. That makes us quantitatively special but not qualitatively so. Make sense?

On Qs 4 and 5, I suspect these folk are bears of limited cranial capacity, reaching out for political power. Luftmensch.

Species clearly depend on each other, but not absolutely; some emerge, some disappear every day, and while wholesale destruction of all forests would certainly end life as we know it, profitable harvesting of those a person actually owns is a perfectly valid way of advancing his interests and ours.


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