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The Definitive Tactics Thread

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  • Tue, Apr 03, 2012 - 04:33am

    #301

    Dogs_In_A_Pile

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    joesxm2011 wrote:Dogs, I

joesxm2011 wrote:

Dogs,

I agree entirely that mindset is the driving factor and that one needs to have more skills at his disposal than just a gun.  Like they say, if your only tool is a hammer every problem is a nail.

To that end I am going to SouthNarc’s Extreme Close Quarters Combat class this summer, even if I get the crap kicked out of me.  I have absolutely no martial arts training so I probably need to get some pointers on at least how to fall without getting seriously hurt.

Massad Ayoob recommended this book in his Backwoods Home Magazine blog a month or two ago.  It seems to cover some of the techniques you were mentioning.  I bought a copy but have not had time to read much of it, let alone try to practice any of it.

http://www.amazon.com/Battlefield-Pankration-Lethal-Personal-Combat/dp/1610043677/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1333419250&sr=8-3

Joe

Joe –

I think you will enjoy the SouthNarc class.  I have been taking the Target Focus Training series since January.  During down time after one of the classes with one of the instructors we talked about other courses of study out there and he mentioned SouthNarc – I think he knows some of the instructors there.  As far as not having any martial arts training, that will probably serve you well as you will have no preconceived notions or techniques to “unlearn”.

Here’s a link to the TFT site – well worth the time, money and effort IMO.  http://www.targetfocustraining.com/

  • Tue, Apr 03, 2012 - 01:58pm

    #302

    Aaron M

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    soufnarc

Is probably tye best trainer you can invest in right now.

you’ll build skills that are applicable to civilians during crisis prrless your limits and gain sone experiences that are certain to humble you.

post up a review after you go. Im attending another ecqc this year myself.

cheers,

aaron

 

  • Tue, Apr 03, 2012 - 09:11pm

    #303
    joesxm2011

    joesxm2011

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    aaron – dogs

 Dogs,

That Target Focused Training looks to be a well integrated system.  I could only take a peek from my phone at work but I will check it out more and maybe buy their book or DVD.

Aaron,

I am already benefitting from having signed up for the ECQC class.  It has driven me to lose 15 pounds and to start doing the Convict Conditioning body weight training that Ivory Jackel recommended to try to acquire some strength.

I am still old and out of shape, but at least a little better than I used to be.  I am sure that the class will be a challenge but I am looking forward to it. I bought the Practical Unarmed Combat DVD and have watched several of the You Tube videos so I have a rough idea of what will be covered.

You can rest assured that I will write up an report on my adventure (once I recover).

Joe

  • Thu, Apr 05, 2012 - 01:09am

    #304
    capesurvivor

    capesurvivor

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    martial arts

As I remember (also a function of age, LOL) I think that many posters here are in their 20’s, 30’s, 40’s ..it will be interesting to see, if I’m still around, if you all still retain your skills, speed, flexibility, and health in your 60’s and later and are ready to risk your life in explosive physical combat with a 20-something psychopath. I studied martial arts for a number of years before various medical problems, unrelated to martial arts practice, surfaced. It just ain’t in the cards anymore, folks, if it ever was. The Israelis lost a number of IDF soldiers in hand-to-hand combat when these reservists were called up to fight 20-something Hezbollah who practiced every day waiting for the chance to kill an Israeli. Some American mean streets may be similar.

To play devil’s advocate, there is also the added question of whether, if you face a jury of your peers, they will be more sympathetic if you’ve place a few well-aimed bullets into a bad guy or ripped out his trachea and blinded him. My guess is that most jurors would feel considerably more comfortable with a shot bad guy rather than an eviscerated one. 

As always, JMHO.

CS

  • Thu, Apr 05, 2012 - 02:39am

    #305

    Dogs_In_A_Pile

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    capesurvivor wrote:To play

capesurvivor wrote:

To play devil’s advocate, there is also the added question of whether, if you face a jury of your peers, they will be more sympathetic if you’ve place a few well-aimed bullets into a bad guy or ripped out his trachea and blinded him. My guess is that most jurors would feel considerably more comfortable with a shot bad guy rather than an eviscerated one. 

As always, JMHO.

CS

To play the devil’s devil’s advocate, I would rather have my wife standing with me facing a jury than my widow facing the future alone.

Cape, I think you are not making the leap to being in an asocial situation where you must take action or you will be severely injured or worse.  Violent criminals and sociopaths are not constrained by the niceties and “rules” of polite society.  Choosing to inflict possibly lethal physical injuries on an attacker – whether it’s with a gun or your hands – is not a decision to be made lightly.  Concerning yourself with what a jury might think is the mindset of someone who is still functioning in the social/anti-social realm.  I am not going to constrain my response options by wondering about what a jury might think, because I guarantee you, your attacker is most definitely not thinking about a jury.

  • Thu, Apr 05, 2012 - 03:20pm

    #306
    capesurvivor

    capesurvivor

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    type of response

Dogs,

I’ve experienced some violent crime myself and in my family’s friends, as well as worked with numerous crime victims in mental health settings;I’m under no illusions about bad guys. My second comment related, really, as to why one would choose, if able to use a firearm, an equivalent but viscerally grotesque level of response …we’ll say ripping out a trachea? Thirty years ago when I was studying a form of kung fu, one of our students was attacked at dusk in the local big city. He broke the assailant’s arm and ended the fight…he either was not charged or no billed, I don’t remember. He caught holy hell from our instructor, a master trained in kung fu and wu shu in China,  because the type of attack, block, and counter in our system required that he should have blinded his assailant, rather than break his arm. I can assure you that my student colleague would have served much time in my state for blinding someone when he, sensibly, chose another option instead of permanently maiming someone. Our school’s students were pretty much in agreement. When the master instructor went on to teach “plucking the plums from the tree” (I’ll let you visualize that one, maybe you learned it) in the same lowlight/ no light, setting, a number of folks decided that they’d rather try to get a CCW (LTC here).

Just my take on the situation.

SG

  • Thu, Apr 05, 2012 - 08:12pm

    #307

    Dogs_In_A_Pile

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    capesurvivor

capesurvivor wrote:

Dogs,

I’ve experienced some violent crime myself and in my family’s friends, as well as worked with numerous crime victims in mental health settings;I’m under no illusions about bad guys. My second comment related, really, as to why one would choose, if able to use a firearm, an equivalent but viscerally grotesque level of response …we’ll say ripping out a trachea? Thirty years ago when I was studying a form of kung fu, one of our students was attacked at dusk in the local big city. He broke the assailant’s arm and ended the fight…he either was not charged or no billed, I don’t remember. He caught holy hell from our instructor, a master trained in kung fu and wu shu in China,  because the type of attack, block, and counter in our system required that he should have blinded his assailant, rather than break his arm. I can assure you that my student colleague would have served much time in my state for blinding someone when he, sensibly, chose another option instead of permanently maiming someone. Our school’s students were pretty much in agreement. When the master instructor went on to teach “plucking the plums from the tree” (I’ll let you visualize that one, maybe you learned it) in the same lowlight/ no light, setting, a number of folks decided that they’d rather try to get a CCW (LTC here).

Just my take on the situation.

SG

Cape –

I hear you loud and clear.  And in your scenario above, it strikes me as a case of “the student becomes the master”.  The student broke an arm because that was the target he saw and went after.  The instructor was still constrained by a rigid form of response because the eyes were “required” to be struck?  So now the student is supposed to be limited to a set block, a set form, a set response action and a single target? 

That’s the beauty of the TFT course of instruction.  Your response options and targets aren’t limited and the techniques you are taught are really fairly basic.  I just don’t see much of a difference in the decision making process to use a gun or a lethal series of strikes.  I don’t think I’d feel much different about the decision to shoot someone or to crush their trachea or gouge out an eye.  Once you’ve made the decision to employ lethal force, whether it’s with a gun or your elbow, it doesn’t really matter.  Either way, you are probably going to have to tell your story to at least the police and possibly a jury.  But you’ll be alive to do so.

You may also find yourself in a position where you can’t get the gun out in time – say you get jumped out of the blue and knocked to the ground with your attacker on top of you trying to pound your head in?  Pulling your gun from an small of the back IWB holster while laying on your back probably isn’t going to work.  That’s when I’m going to try and pick the martini olive out of his eye socket with every thing I’ve got.  The pain is going to be excruciating and while he’s rolling around screaming about his eye, his other eye is going to be tearing up in sympathetic response.  And I’m going to be running down the street with his other one.  Even if it’s a non-blinding eye poke or rake, you are very likely to generate just enough time and separation to get away.

And in the most desirable of situations, my time and money will have been well spent on TFT, but I’ll never have to use anything I was taught.

  • Thu, Apr 05, 2012 - 08:20pm

    #308
    capesurvivor

    capesurvivor

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    TFT

Hi Dogs,

Will look at TFT just to see what it’s like though, at this point, I’m afraid that I’m not able to embark on any new physical courses of study.

From what I’ve seen, many martial artists who also CCW see their MA training as buying them time to get to their handgun! The people with CCW who carry a handgun see that as buying them time to get to their rifle, LOL! For all I know, the people who carry a rifle think they are buying time until they can get to their suitcase nuke!

With luck, our kids will just use all of our ammo for target practice.

CS

 

 

  • Fri, Apr 06, 2012 - 01:50am

    #309
    ao

    ao

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    Handgun disarm

For entertainment purposes only

Real time

Slo mo

Variations

 

 

  • Fri, Apr 06, 2012 - 03:28pm

    #310
    capesurvivor

    capesurvivor

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    diasarm

Maybe.

I posted on the Firearms thread a few years about about a local black belt, one of highest ranked karate masters in U.S., who tried to disarm a criminal after being forced to go into his house and hand over $, jewelry, etc. He was shot numerous times, to the consternation of his students, and barely survived. He asserted that he thought that he was about to be killed, had to act, and survived only due to his skills;cynics thought he was a fool and/or karate as a feasible response in that scenario was highly over-rated.

A few years ago a black belt hired to guard some U.S. honcho was shot dead. I think Jeff Cooper said that there’s no one more dangerous than a 12 y.o. girl with a shot gun.

CS

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