The Definitive Tactics Thread

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  • Wed, Jun 03, 2009 - 03:07am

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    Re: The Definitive Tactics Thread

Aaron. A couple of things went awry immediately.

First. I started my very first drills with a big, bulky, and heavy Springfield MIl-standard 1911-A1 .45 ACP. Cumbersome.

Second. It has a right-hand safety. I am a lefty. Awkward. Not only that but the bad guy has three caps in Pete’s chest by the time I reach with my right hand, while holding the pistol with my left, to release the safety.

Third. I shot this pistol all day Sunday and had 3 stovepipes. I’m no limpwrist. I should have figured that after about 4,000 rounds that recoil spring was fatigued. It was. Replaced it on site and the stovepiping stopped. Regardless, Pete killed again. LOL

Fourth. Hotshot target range shooter here was flanked by a past local champion and a retired Broward Sheriff officer that’s ex-SWAT. Pete looked pathetic. Pressure went up, way up and I started getting confused, and even forgot basic safety procedures that I usually do subconsciously! Put it this way. We were order to put three in the head in rapid sequence. I actually hit the head twice and miseed the target completely on the third. The guy to my left, a past champion of the area, had two holes in the head space a hair’s worth of paper apart. But he fired three shots. One of those shots went through one of the two holes. And I swear he did in in less than 1/2 a second. They made me look retarded.

Fifth. First time I ever used a holster. No practice. And it showed. First time using a magazine holder. Anyone realize how embarrassing it is to grab a mag, and try to jam it in backwards because you didn’t align them right in the mag holder? No time to think, just do. Well, I didn’t think AHEAD of time and looked stupid.

I had two safety issues that I would NEVER EVER do when not under duress. That freaked me out. I’m a safety freak and I broke my code without realizing it until told so.

Wow. Know what this means? 

I have to switch to my lighter, smaller Beretta .40 with the ambidextriouis trigger, get in front of a full mirror, and dry practice every day until the next drill.

Which means as embarrassing as I was, I’m headed right back out there.

50:50 are crappy odds.

  • Wed, Jun 03, 2009 - 03:20am

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    Re: The Definitive Tactics Thread

Mindset –

1) Obviously prepared.  Video (did he see them before they got inside?  Seems as though he did).  Defensive weapons at the ready and seemingly a plan of action that had been rehearsed.  Like Arthur, maybe there is more to this story.  Were the assailants and the victim acquainted?  Why was the iron gate not closed?  Apparent passionate and prepared defense of property and person.

2) Looking for trouble.  Trying to prove superiority without the skills necessary – not prepared.  Even with necessary skills, potential trouble is to be avoided if possible, there is too much potential for bad things to happen.

Skillset

1) Awesome skills with that weapon in a very controlled setting.  As with Plickety, how would he be in real life scenario. Maybe he is just as accomplished there.  However, that is not to be assumed from this demonstration.

2)  Skills?  We are not sure,although it is likely his skills were far superior to the pimp’s.  It was one punch.  To me, the success here was more from a proper assessment of the situation.  When being approached by an obviously aggressive person and you have chosen not to vacate the premisis, you must become the aggressor.  If you have made that decision, be the attacker.  Again, he is taking a chance by pursuing trouble.  He had the mindset, most likely the skillset AND the tactical sense to assure a positive outcome.

Tactics

1) Obviously rehearsed to the point of subconscious activity.  I don’t know enough to critique this one. Although, the building was awfully small to hold anyone.

2) Again, a person seeking trouble.  Did he make inflammatory comments to the woman? If so, he is essentially seeking trouble.  Once he is confronted by the guy he REALLY should have reassessed his intentions and possible outcomes.  Leave as quickly as possible or become the aggressor as soon as approached by the guy. The time for talking is over when someone aggressively approaches.  Don’t wait to take the first punch.

  • Wed, Jun 03, 2009 - 03:33am

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    Re: GET TRAINING!!!!!!

Aaron, glad you started this thread. After the TwoBeersWithSteve interview I started thinking more about bad guys in society – the wolves as you call them.  Something struck me today that I thought was a good change in my mindset.  Over the last few weeks I went into two different gun stores.  Both times I noticed a "skinhead" looking guy – shaved head, sleeveless shirt, lots of brightly colored tattoos, pierced body parts, etc.  (I think of them as skinheads because they looked like the neo-Nazi skinheads I saw protesting when I was living in Germany.  After seeing them at protests, my spider senses start tingling whenever I get around someone who looks the same way.)   Both times I was in the stores the guys were buying impressive looking assault weapons.  Now, I’m not saying these were "bad guys" just because of the way they looked but my first thought was "what is it with skinheads and automatic weapons?"  Later as I was thinking about these events I was reminded that when the stuff hits the fan and bad guys are roaming the streets, I’m not going to be able to hold off a band of thugs when they have assault rifles and all I have is a handgun. That’s when I realized that I need to have some training and know what to do in different situations.  (Like run out the back door if need be.)  If our town becomes like post-Katrina New Orleans, I’m positive the bad guys will be much more heavily armed than me so I need to be armed with more training then them.  I don’t yet know where to get the training but I do think I should get some.

><>Larry

  • Wed, Jun 03, 2009 - 04:09am

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    Re: The Definitive Tactics Thread

Being a newbie with a gun and being "an old geezer", I’m not sure how useful I can be here. (Notice how I cover my butt before I even start? That’s an old guy trick. )

1st Video; Mindset:
Success: The homeowner shooting at the invaders was interesting if for no other reason than why he was selected. This didn’t look like a random home invasion to me. What I took away from it was the need to have a loaded firearm instantly accessible at all times if you think you are likely to be attacked at a moments notice. As for me, I cannot conceive of living like that right now – although I do understand it’s not inconceivable in the future.

Failure: This gruesome fight was interesting in the fact that it points out that whoever gets in the first serious punch can usually destroy the other. I’m surprised the white guy wasn’t killed. Although, it doesn’t look like it would have been much of a loss if he had been removed from the gene pool.

-How did this costly problem occur? Overestimating yourself – underestimating your opponent. Also known as being very, very stupid.

2nd Video; Skillset:
Success: Very impressive shooting. But, like Pete said, being a great shot doesn’t mean diddly squat in a real-life nasty situation.

Failure: It was nice to see the black-belt guy take out the pimp. Too bad the damage wasn’t permanent!
-What happened here to make this end poorly. I didn’t think this ended poorly at all! (Unless you’re a loud-mouth pimp who overestimated himself and underestimated his opponent – see above comment about stupidity.)

3rd Video; Tactics:
Success: While an interesting little display, I thought it was meant to be strictly humorous as the "building" was so tiny!

Failure: This "fight" was really ugly . It’s a real problem when you’re standing around minding your own business and you find yourself attacked by another. Talk about an unfair fight – the huge boy friend sucker-punched the smaller guy – after that it was all over. The poor slob never had a chance. I’m not sure what you wanted us to take away from that one – after all, how can you defend against a sucker-punch when you’re not expecting a physical altercation?
-Discuss this guys mindset, tactics and what went wrong. Should he have just walked away after being verbally attacked by the nasty female? Sometimes you can’t walk away if the fight comes to you.

The most depressing part? No one came to his aid – either during or after the "fight" was over. Poor guy was left lying on the ground while the other folks just milled around like it was an everyday occurrence – which maybe it was in that neighborhood. Sigh…..

  • Wed, Jun 03, 2009 - 06:10am

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    Re: The Definitive Tactics Thread

A note on situational awareness, threat assessment and underestimating your opponent…  I’m not the world’s largest person, I’m a girl, I’m quiet and I get underestimated a lot. I’m always tuned into what’s going around me… they call it hypervigilence. I always note the interactions of the people around me… you can spot the real alpha (i.e. threat) from a mile away, they’re usually the one who look calm but have serious, watchful eyes. When I think something bad is going to go down, I will try to exit the scene… but on more than one occasion, the troublemakers were watching the big guy when they really should have been watching me, especially since I’d already taken a defensive position near handy weapons. This is a really common mistake.

I think it’s also important to know your limitations. My accuracy with a rifle and handgun suck… so I’ll reach for my shotgun first. I’m not going to overpower most men with upper body strength alone, but I can seriously put a hurt on them with my legs. I’m completely uncoordinated and my balance sucks, but I’m double-jointed and can bend/twist/turn out most grab-n-holds. Guess what I’m trying to say is that once you have mindset down, skillset and tactics are highly dependent on the individual… you gotta work with what you have to the best effect, not try to follow "the manual".

Pete, your shoot-house stories make me laugh. I know how you feel! I’ve gone through the shoot-house and the bomb-house a few times myself, and noticed that I did really bad when I was trying too hard to do everything right. I was lucky that the range officer let me go back through and do it "my way", which was technically the "wrong way", but I successfully saved the hostage, eliminated the threat and didn’t get myself dead. Weird how that works sometimes 🙂

  • Wed, Jun 03, 2009 - 06:30am

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    Re: The Definitive Tactics Thread

All,

First, one of the "points" I was fishing for was the importance of recording your training events.
We’re only able to troubleshoot these event scenarios because of video. When you train, record it.
You’ll humble yourself, it won’t always be flattering, but you will learn!
A real quick note, the "Mindset" failure really is every bit as applicable to the "Skill set" failure.
That guy was "Unconsciously Incompetent". This is the absolute worst place to be in terms of "awareness".

In addition to the exercise, think about these terms and who they apply to:
Unconsciously Incompetent
Consciously Incompetent
Consciously Competent
Unconsciously Competent
Here are some of the questions that raised in my mind during each of the given circumstances, please feel free to answer them, elaborate, or ask your own questions:

Mindset:
Success: How many rounds were fired? My estimate is between 6-10. What does that tell us about his weapon selection?
What does the aggressor response tell us about their level of awareness and standing on the "combat triad"?

Failure: This guy represents what I think will be the first class of criminal to disappear during the collapse; the "born trouble" type. Unskilled, incompetent, wild and dangerous only to the unprepared. (edit: or in numbers)
 

Skill set:
Success: Plickety hit the "home run" on this one. Specialization. For extra points, what can we learn from Pete’s experience tonight that might add to our analysis of Jerry Miculek’s level of ability in shooting, versus his ability to fight?
(Please note: I’m using him as an example, not degrading his skill – I’m certain he’d be a skilled adversary, as this is one event of many that he participates in)

Failure: This scenario could really have been a "skill set/mindset" success video. The karate master is relaxed, at ease; confident.
His adversary, surging on adrenaline, out of control, off balance. Would weapons have changed this event if:
*They were presented while there was a greater distance between the two?
*The Weapon was presented at "contact" range?
 

Tactics:
Success: Good team work, good communication. Just the first decent example I found.

Failure: How was situational awareness the key to the victims failure? Can’t really develop a tactical solution if you’re unaware that there is a situation!

Arthur Vibert; Thanks for your comments! You pointed out the nefarious circumstances under which the Success for Mindset occurred! Tell me your thoughts on facing down multiple assailants armed with military rifles, with a handgun. What does this tell us about our "good guy"?

Gungnir; you tagged a lot of main points, and get extra credit for the "hooah" comment about us Air Force guys 😉

Plickety; in addition to your "home run" you said "He relied too much on speed and a big swing". Excellent observation. How do you think this guy compares to the pimp in the Skill set fail video? In addition, braggadocio is an alarm. How could you use this in everyday life? Especially if you’re "alert" to potential threats?

– Pete; Know your hardware! This is one of the main reasons I advocate the G19. Small enough to carry, big enough to fight, lightweight, holds 15 rounds, no external safetys to mess with and extremely reliable! We can talk more about the 1911 in the Def. Firearms Thread if you want… I can suggest a few things that might help with the ‘ole warhorse 😉

In addition to that, your contrast from the world of "Shooting" to the world of "Fighting" was precisely one of the points I was hoping to discuss. Oddly enough, I’m not that great of a shot. Standing around, patiently firing a ragged hole escapes me entirely. The question becomes; how do we mix the accuracy with the urgency? What’s the appropriate "mixture"?

Thank you for sharing your experience. It ties in nicely with this thread, and I grinned ear to ear when you wrote:
"Which means as embarrassing as I was, I’m headed right back out there."
That’s exactly what we must commit ourselves to each day – regardless what aspect we choose to tackle.

– Sam; In your Email to me, you wrote:
[quote]"The "fight" in the pizza parlor was really ugly. It’s a real problem when you’re standing around minding your own business and you find yourself attacked by another. Talk about an unfair fight – the huge boy friend sucker-punched the smaller guy – after that it was all over. The poor slob never had a chance. I’m not sure what you wanted us to take away from that one – after all, how can you defend against a sucker-punch?"[/quote]

The answer is: Don’t drop your guard!!! This guy here is a perfect example of Mental Condition "White".
http://www.teddytactical.com/SharpenBladeArticle/4_States%20of%20Awareness.htm

Had he not been oblivious, he could have prepared to fight back, dodge or block the attack, strike, or present a weapon. 
Needless to say, jabbering away on your cellphone is not a good tactic for dangerous situations.

What would the appropriate course of action be here?
This is a very tough situation – and I don’t believe there is a "right" answer. Just different ways for the situation to play our "wrong", and for who.

MarkM; Excellent point about becoming the aggressor. This is a great example of the "sheepdog" mentality. What are your thoughts about taking someone of that size on while unarmed? How about while armed? Why?
Good call on the building as well. It goes to show even "professionals" sometimes have to work with sub-standard accommodations.

Larry (Mr. Fri); Thank you for sharing that experience!!! You’ve hit on one of the "Subtle" key points I wanted to share with this: these dirt bags defy racial profiling, they defy cliches, and they are arming themselves to do violence. The Skinhead in the first video is a good example of how these men think and act. Imagine him with a military rifle. You followed up saying "I wouldn’t be able to hold them off with a handgun".
Would his technique become refined simply by possessing the weapon? How about his tactics and mindset? What would change there? Would they improve, weaken or stay the same?

Think on this, think how you could react; and think of our "success" in video one.

GREAT COMMENT! As to your question on where to seek training, post up your general location in the Definitive Firearms Thread, and we can discuss some options near you.

Cheers, and stay sharp!

Aaron

  • Wed, Jun 03, 2009 - 06:31am

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    Re: The Definitive Tactics Thread

Pete, pleased you learned something new, you have the right tools in the box, now you just need to learn how to use them in an orchestrated way. Good job, and you’re showing a lot of determination, practice with your holster, and mag swaps and you’ll get it in no time.

Sam you raise an interesting point, about what I term situational awareness, to get this up a little, spend some time people watching. Go grab a coffee, and sit outside, its getting nice now and so it should be really pleasant. Look for groups of people 3-4 ironically girls in their late teens to early twenties make great observation subjects for this with less risk of retaliative violence, and they tend to be a little louder so you can hear their speech. Weigh them up see who you think is the leader, who you think is the biggest threat. Watch them surruptitiously, if they’re around you for a time, you should see behavior or language that confirms or denies your initial thinking on who is who. Even if you never really figure it out from the groups behavior think about why you thought "Person A" is the leader of the band, and "Person B" is the biggest threat, question those assumptions. Did you pick the biggest threat as the biggest guy in the group, if so did you ignore the little guy there (I ask because little guys scare me, big guys go until they get hurt, little guys go until they’re disabled in my experience)? Was one more intimidating than another. etc. etc. It’s all about getting your brain to do this automatically, and accurately. Also don’t forget to look behind you use mirrors, windows, and reflective surfaces to see what’s behind you too.

As far as the reaction of the people in the Pizza place is concerned, it doesn’t surprise me in the least, for two big reasons

  1. They were likely all stunned at the intial attack, because they weren’t paying attention to what was happening around them, improved situational awareness will minimize this shock, in fact in that situation I’d have seen that possible outcome approaching after about 30 seconds.
  2. Once the shock wore off, it was all over, and any attempt to help the guy out might have led to retaliation, with visible evidence of what that retaliation might have looked like.

The other thing to remember is that if there wasn’t a tape in the Pizza place then the rest of the customers (and likely the workers) descriptions would be there was a black woman and a big black guy who attacked the guy lying there, after some argument.

 

  • Wed, Jun 03, 2009 - 06:45am

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    Re: The Definitive Tactics Thread

[quote=Aaron Moyer]

Plickety; in addition to your "home run" you said "He relied too much on speed and a big swing". Excellent observation. How do you think this guy compares to the pimp in the Skill set fail video? In addition, braggadocio is an alarm. How could you use this in everyday life? Especially if you’re "alert" to potential threats?

[/quote]

Both the white fighter and the pimp are relying on bravado and posturing to pump themselves up and strike fear into their opponent. For me, this signals the asshole is likely going to cause trouble because he has something to prove. He’s likely going to pick who he believes is the lowest threat and weakest/most vulnerable opponent because he doesn’t have the skills so wants to make sure that his big show is "successful". Unfortunately, as I noted above, that usually means that I get targetted for nimrod’s attacks… because I appear innocuous enough. Luckily, as I noted above, I know this jackass doesn’t have the skills or he wouldn’t be showing off. All I have to do is stay out of the way of the obvious stuff (grabs, haymakers, etc) and then retaliate with whatever is handy (like a can of peas or a cue ball) to either diffuse the situation or at least disorient the assailant long enough to un-ass the AO. So, the loud showy bastards are going to cause problems, but if you know what you’re doing they aren’t going to be a problem… just don’t fall into the trap of underestimating them yourself though!

[quote=Aaron Moyer]
– Sam; In your Email to me, you wrote:
[quote]"The "fight" in the pizza parlor was really ugly. It’s a real problem when you’re standing around minding your own business and you find yourself attacked by another. Talk about an unfair fight – the huge boy friend sucker-punched the smaller guy – after that it was all over. The poor slob never had a chance. I’m not sure what you wanted us to take away from that one – after all, how can you defend against a sucker-punch?"[/quote]

The answer is: Don’t drop your guard!!! This guy here is a perfect example of Mental Condition "White".
http://www.teddytactical.com/SharpenBladeArticle/4_States%20of%20Awareness.htm

Had he not been oblivious, he could have prepared to fight back, dodge or block the attack, strike, or present a weapon. 
Needless to say, jabbering away on your cellphone is not a good tactic for dangerous situations.

What would the appropriate course of action be here?
This is a very tough situation – and I don’t believe there is a "right" answer. Just different ways for the situation to play our "wrong", and for who.

[/quote]

The guy seriously messed this one up… he didn’t recognize a dangerous situation, he didn’t identify the real threat (even after the big guy got in his face), and then he proceeded to turn his back on the threat and continue arguing with the woman. I don’t think the big guy sucker-punched him at all… that would imply a random hit out of nowhere with no warning. The only reason this guy got hit in the first place was because he did just about everything wrong there is to do.

Better course of action: 1) when the chick started yelling, hang up the phone and put it away so you have both hands free; 2) when she really got in your face, do not engage in the argument, scan the room for additional threats and exits, attempt to diffuse the argument; 3) if the situation continued to escalate – go for the exit, or at least get to more defensible position (i.e. back to the wall); 4) once the big guy got in your face, do not lose eye contact or present a vulnerable target… certainly don’t keep yelling at the woman out the door.

I’ve been in situations very similar to this when I was younger and it never got that out of hand. I certainly never ended up bleeding and helpless on the floor! Bleeding, yes, but not helpless and not on the floor. Never, ever, ever, ever take your eyes off the real threat… you can track secondary threats in the peripheral. The alpha is always going to be the one taking the shots or at least calling the shots, when he twitches, you’ll know where the threat’s going to come from.

  • Wed, Jun 03, 2009 - 07:50am

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    Re: The Definitive Tactics Thread

Plickety,

The Akron Pizzeria fight was a "cornerstone" discussion piece some years back.
The question was poised: "How would you deal with this guy" – assuming of course, you were armed.

The general consensus was that his body type would create a "disparity of force", and would justify force elevation from physical to lethal if he started getting rowdy. Which he did. The questions then become, in such close quarters:

– Which tool do you use? Physiology, edged, or firearm?
– How do you retain your weapon? (That is to say, make sure it doesn’t get grabbed out of your hand)
– How do you assure you won’t strike a citizen with a stray round, if you choose firearm?
– Prevent panic in such tight quarters
– Avoid being attacked further by mamajama or other bad guys unintroduced?

We should all learn from his mistake, and think/discuss what we’d do in this situation and situations like it.
As ridiculous as it may sound, visualization, and contemplation will dramatically aid you in making tough descision before you’re required to. Miyamoto Musashi said "Die each day in advance". To picture yourself stricken by terrible harm, you’d vanquish your fear of it, and thus focus all your attention to your enemy.

The Pimp v. Karate dude is a great example of "Unconsciously incompetent" vs. "Consciously Competent".
Very predictable outcome. The same that played out for the White Trash dude in the Mindset Failure Video.

Thank you all so much for particpating in this discussion! Please, keep the comments coming in so we can further dissect these events.

Cheers!

Aaron

  • Wed, Jun 03, 2009 - 01:51pm

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    Re: The Definitive Tactics Thread

Firstly to answer Some question you posed in earlier an earlier post on this topic.

Bravado/Braggadocio, generally this is a threat of force to avoid the use of force rather than a precursor to actual application of force. It’s like a bluff charge of a Bull or a Bear, the instinctive intent is to avoid violence not engage in it. However the risk there is in Braggadocio/Bravado is that things can escalate very quickly if it appears that you are not cowed by the show.

You asked a question also about the pimp/Karate Dude if the Pimp was armed with a firearm, my perspective on this is had the situation developed as shown and the pimp drew at close proximity then the result would have been the same (or worse) for the pimp. However if I was the karate guy, I would not allow any space to develop between me and the pimp if I suspected he was armed with a gun, since (assuming it was just me without a firearm) space prevents me from employing my weapons, but not him employing his, and of course I cannot disarm, or remove his weapon at a distance. Of course if I suspected the Pimp was armed (either with a firearm or a blade) then I wouldn’t be in that situation in th first instance anyway.

Finally, to the Pizzeria.

Few things I might have done differently. Assuming that I for whatever stupid reason I didn’t leave immediately, or I was looking for a trip to the ER.

  1. When the woman cut in line in front of me, I might suggest she cut in further up the line to get served faster.
  2. Identify the boyfriend, and attempt to gain his sympathy, you know it the she’s like that with you she’s likely similar to him, and you might be able to find common ground.
  3. Once things escalated leave if possible, if not, and I was pushed into violence, chances are I would strike first. Weapons employment other than physiology here would likely be a bad idea, the shop was too crowded even a blade could cause collateral damage.
  4. Big guy seems confident, so joint attacks would be primary focus, in particular knee’s, breaking or dislocating kneecaps destroys confidence, hurts like hell and takes away a lot of power from any counter attacks, as well as slowing down pursuit. Once this is complete, you can disable completely, far easier. If successful I’d reasonably expect a broken knee and a second strike probably to break the opposite arm, or a throat strike, and complete disablility in under 2 seconds. Note to others, Groin attacks can hurt like hell, but are not stoppers, it takes a second or so for the pain to develop to incredible proportions, that second can be disasterous.
  5. Woman, might or might not get involved, since a rapid destructive assault on big boy could shock her into inaction, or completely destroy her current mental picture of the situation, since she thought she had the upper hand, now that has changed. If she did, she’s a far easier disable than the big guy. Similarly that rapid destructive assault will have a huge deterence effect on anyone not introduced. If one second the situation looks rosy, big guy getting up in someone’s face, the next he’s down with a destroyed knee, and arm, or destroyed knee and flopping like a fish for breath, then what would you do if you were a bad guy…? It does change if other BG’s are armed.

On the other questions like panic in close quarters, since speed is needed to avoid follow-ups it might take longer to realize what’s happening than to actually do it, so people likely could panic after the events. As I mentioned I personally would not employ weapons in this situation, even though I have training in weapons in both military and martial arts, there is one fact that I always remember, a weapon can be taken from you, and the psychological impact of losing the weapon, or worse it’s employment against you can itself lead to your defeat.

Of course all of the above have assumptions, which may or may not be accurate, although in my mental play through from my experience these steps and results are all likely outcomes

YMMV

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