The Definitive Tactics Thread

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  • Thu, Jun 18, 2009 - 06:27pm

    #101
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    Re: Defeating the Carjacker -outside the box

There’s an interesting book I read a few months back, "Highway to Hell",  by John Geddes, a true account of his time in Iraq as a mercenary. He is former SAS and contrasts his low key behavior with American cowboy mercs who have killed numerous civilians there. The relevant point here is the time he was guarding some tv execs with an AK-47, he sitting in the back seat of their "beater" car with both of them up front, driving. He saw a possible bad guy car ie. carjackers and murderers approaching suddenly and it pulled up alongside at 60 MPH with a guy in the passenger’s side pointing an AK outside the window aimed directly at them from only a few feet away. His AK was below the window, out of sight, and he had shifted it to point towards the left side of his car. Knowing that the second he lifted his rifle high enough to fire, they’d be killed, he triggered his AK inside, through the door, at the other shooter. It was deafening but he got the guy with the AK and the other car pealed off, leaving terrified but alive tv execs.

I’m sure that would work with 9 MM JHP and probably .45 (definitely FMJ, maybe JHP). High capacity definitely better than low capacity mag here.

Sometimes you need to think outside the box, I guess.

 

SG

  • Fri, Jun 19, 2009 - 04:00am

    #102
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    Re: The Definitive Tactics Thread

 Aaron  ,

    I am not sure my last apology came through  .  I was not making light of your thread nor you . I was however funning on how far, we in the Midwest, have stayed removed from many of the things that you speak of .

   It is true  I pick up every hitch hiker along  the road , We stop and help everyone with car trouble,  We say "Hey " to everyone on the street . We return lost wallets .   We still let the kids ride their bikes all over town and the teens ‘hang out’ on the Square .   Our county jail has 18 cells that house the weekend drunks, the mom who wrote a bad check buying her children pizza, and a guy who was too rough with his wife .

  But even out here things are changing . A few years ago  no one would think a thing of kids making pipe bombs in the garage  or walking down the street with a shot gun . Now  the Kids can not  even have their hunting rifles in their car at school and trouble if they blow up a neighbors mailbox . In our county  we have had a robbery, a cattle rustling , and  Meth lab bust all in one year .

  I can not even find a place  near that teaches  the  tactics you  all speak of .  Possibly in the state capitol  where there seems to be a shooting or assault  every week or so.  Anyway these areas are sure to  be a place to provide this service of training  and make some money in the not so distant future  . Especially  if we are unable to keep the outside world from invading.  For now we do not have much of anything that anyone would want  and I think  we are somewhat protected because everyone knows each other .  No one is going to get away with anything for long .  For pete sake any indiscretion is all over town by morning .  Out here in "Mayberry " we like it this way.  You know ,where everyone knows your name , whether it be upright and respected.

   Times they are changing  and  as you have so opened my eyes as to what we may have to look forward to,  I had better reconsider our  ways.     

  Forgive me ?

Diana

 

 

  • Fri, Jun 19, 2009 - 05:00am

    #103
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    Re: The Definitive Tactics Thread

Diana,

I’m terribly sorry – I mis-understood the context of your post, and it’s I who owes you an apology.
Honestly, I feel terrible about approaching your post the way I did.

It’s true there are still quite a few places that are relatively untouched, and it’s certainly your good fortune to have the opportunity to live in one of them. I suppose what I meant to say is don’t let it spoil you!!! It’s an awful truth that civil communities are both a privledge to live in, and a unalert target at times.

Here’s to hoping that our vigilance will go to waste, and please accept my apology for misunderstanding you.
I’m very pleased that you’ve found this useful, and it’s given you things to think about.

Cheers!

Aaron

  • Fri, Jun 19, 2009 - 01:22pm

    #104
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    Re: The Definitive Tactics Thread

Aaron ,   

   Yes,   Still not sure of what extent I am going to pursue  … but I do remember living in foreign countries where  headquarters were bombed ,We had to have "all clear " to pick up our mail , Bomb dogs sniff our cars and the perimeters of our housing areas. Where my husband had to hide under the  fire trucks when the bullets were flying .

   Twenty years was enough !!! We retreated back here, to home ,as soon as we could .  We shut the world out and turned off the ugliness on the TV.     I blocked so much out because it is very hard on a person to live with so much turmoil .  Maybe the adrenalin is just already fried …  I  am not sure I have the strength to live  looking for a demon behind every bush  anymore. Been there, done that ,don’ t  want to  go there anymore . 

 Every generation of our family  has done  their service  but  My husband absolutely forbade our children to "Join Up" because   nothing has changed  and  actually has gotten worse . Just not sure that any of it is worth fighting for and   Not even sure what it is  we are fighting for .   Rambling thoughts , I know , but sometimes it helps to think on paper .

  More considering to do, for sure … probably much sooner than later ….  Sad as that is to comes to realize.

 Diana

 

 

 

  • Fri, Jun 19, 2009 - 05:19pm

    #105
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    Re: The Definitive Tactics Thread

Nickbert – I guess you’d say that I was more on the extreme end of hypermobility… not quite circus freak, but not far off it. Some people have gone as far as saying that some of my movements & body positions look insectile ๐Ÿ™‚  Also, not every hypermobile person is uber-flexible in all their joints or to an equal degree. For instance, my sister’s hands are super-freaky and she’s good at Yoga, but she can’t do the weird crap with all her joints like I can, and I can’t do anything near as freaky as she does with her hands.

There are some holds and locks that do work on me, but the person has to have some advanced training for them to be truly effective. Since the average street thug and Billy-Bad-Ass doesn’t have that kind of training, I normally have more than enough time to wiggle out and counter like you do. (Or freak out the hospital staff by slipping 4-point restraints and a straightjacket… long story)  If it really comes down to the wire, I’d much rather have someone grab me than hit me… my odds are much increased if I haven’t been "softened up" first. Why is it that men can always seem to punch a woman right in that sweet spot on the cheek so the whole side of her face lights up?!?! It must be pre-programmed genetic memory, I swear!

I do agree with you that we have less warning and a smaller margin between flex and break. This is very important when you’re sparring or practicing, but I don’t worry about it much in a real fight. In a real fight, I’d gladly rip my arm out of the socket to escape or land a disabling blow while my opponent is off guard (and have in the past). Since I dislocate joints on a regular basis doing random daily stuff, I’m sort of used to popping things back in or continuing on with something not working quite properly. It still hurts, but I think I might have a higher tolerance to the pain after so many years of practice ๐Ÿ˜‰  Also, I’ve noticed that when you pop apart, it tends to really gross out a lot of people… including less-than-dedicated assailants… which can end the conflict right there. "Dude, that is just nasty" LOL

A lot of my "combat" experience was learned in real life assaults, not in a training environment. I’m not sure if my perspective and preferences would change or not if I had more formal martial arts training. In all the times that I’ve been threatened, pummeled and flung about none of the jerks was ever a Ninja or Kung Fu Master. I think the odds are pretty low that any SHTF invader or assailant would be a trained martial artist… I think the two mindsets are a bit in opposition.

P.S. Is there an Epileptic Drunken Monkey style? Maybe I’d be able to learn that… 

  • Fri, Jun 19, 2009 - 06:29pm

    #106
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    Finger Jab to the Eye

 Geeeeeeesssss, I’m really late to this thread, and I must admit I haven’t read it all yet. I have no experience in firearms but I would like to comment on the hand to hand videos:

It seems to me that most people overlook the simplest and most effective hand to hand technique. A simple finger jab to the eye(s). I don’t care how big the opponent is, a well-honed finger jab to the eye leaves them helpless.

But don’t take my word on its effectiveness, just look at the latest heavyweight fight in the UFC last weekend, ended by a (supposedly inadvertent) finger jab to the eye. If the UFC allowed finger jabs, every fight would be over in seconds.

Not only is a finger jab biomechanically the fastest strike a person could execute, but it can be executed in a way that minimizes the "telegraphing" involved. So your opponent never sees it coming, and then just doesn’t see anything for a while after it lands. At which point you can simply walk away or subdue him if needed. And it requires no strength what-so-ever, so its a great technique for women and children to learn for self-defense.

As the receiver of many finger jabs over the years, I can say that typically there is no permanent damage done by them. You just see a giant spark of light and then your eyes water up, impairing your vision for a few minutes.

So as far as hand to hand combat goes, master the technique first, and then worry about tactics and application.

I’m surprised Dogs, who has a similar martial arts background as myself, hasn’t brought up the finger jab before. Then again maybe he has and I haven’t read it yet.

 

 

  • Fri, Jun 19, 2009 - 06:44pm

    #107
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    Examples of a Finger Jab

 I don’t have any idea who the creator of this video is, or his qualifications, but his video gets my point across about finger jabs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lJXLnOHm34&fmt=18

  • Fri, Jun 19, 2009 - 11:55pm

    #108
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    Re: The Definitive Tactics Thread

Absolutely, eye strikes/gouges are effective and relatively easy to do. If you’re a lot shorter than your opponent the same basic technique works on the throat as well, although a fist or the side of the hand works best for that. In a real-life self defense situation, you can’t be afraid/reluctant to poke, gouge, claw, scrape or bite in order to escape or disable your opponent.

I think getting over the "ew" factor and realizing that it’s you or them is the most basic mindset shift necessary.

  • Sat, Jun 20, 2009 - 02:56am

    #109
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    Re: Finger Jab to the Eye

JAG,

I agree that eye gouges are an excellent tool in the toolbox.  I would only add (mostly for folks new to self-defense) that if the opponent has his guard up, the odds of actually hitting the eye can be low, and the odds are much better if one does this before the fight actually starts (in other words a surprise move).  During a fight it’s still a good move, but it’s best suited as part of a combination.  You probably won’t quite get the eye, but most people will still react a certain way… namely, as their head pulls back and hands move upwards to protect himself in response, they leave their lower body (including groin) more exposed.  So when striking with an eye gouge it’s best to train to immediately follow up with a groin or other lower body strike; and after that of course follow with repeated pummeling until the threat is no longer moving.  Maybe I make that sound a little too easy; I should add that combinations like that are something that requires some practice to do quickly and without tripping over one’s own feet.

– Nickbert

  • Sat, Jun 20, 2009 - 04:39am

    #110
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    Re: The Definitive Tactics Thread

[quote=PlicketyCat]

Nickbert – I guess you’d say that I was more on the extreme end of hypermobility… not quite circus freak, but not far off it. Some people have gone as far as saying that some of my movements & body positions look insectile ๐Ÿ™‚  Also, not every hypermobile person is uber-flexible in all their joints or to an equal degree. For instance, my sister’s hands are super-freaky and she’s good at Yoga, but she can’t do the weird crap with all her joints like I can, and I can’t do anything near as freaky as she does with her hands.

There are some holds and locks that do work on me, but the person has to have some advanced training for them to be truly effective. Since the average street thug and Billy-Bad-Ass doesn’t have that kind of training, I normally have more than enough time to wiggle out and counter like you do. (Or freak out the hospital staff by slipping 4-point restraints and a straightjacket… long story)  If it really comes down to the wire, I’d much rather have someone grab me than hit me… my odds are much increased if I haven’t been "softened up" first. Why is it that men can always seem to punch a woman right in that sweet spot on the cheek so the whole side of her face lights up?!?! It must be pre-programmed genetic memory, I swear!

I do agree with you that we have less warning and a smaller margin between flex and break. This is very important when you’re sparring or practicing, but I don’t worry about it much in a real fight. In a real fight, I’d gladly rip my arm out of the socket to escape or land a disabling blow while my opponent is off guard (and have in the past). Since I dislocate joints on a regular basis doing random daily stuff, I’m sort of used to popping things back in or continuing on with something not working quite properly. It still hurts, but I think I might have a higher tolerance to the pain after so many years of practice ๐Ÿ˜‰  Also, I’ve noticed that when you pop apart, it tends to really gross out a lot of people… including less-than-dedicated assailants… which can end the conflict right there. "Dude, that is just nasty" LOL

[/quote]

I remember my old instructor telling me that when people grab you, in a sense they’re giving you an advantage by occupying their hands with grappling and giving you more stable targets to strike at, so as long as I have a free hand the other guy is going to get pounded lol.  I have never dislocated or severely overextended my joints to that level yet, though I have had a couple Brazilian Jiujitsu sessions (where I squirmed out of some pretty solid holds) that took me weeks to fully recover from.  It does sound like you’re more flexible (and more pain-tolerant) than even I am.  On a more amusing note on the "ew! factor" angle, I’ve also noticed that people get easily grossed out by bending fingers and shoulders in weird ways.  Somehow it fails to impress the ladies and just weirds them out instead dammit

[quote]

A lot of my "combat" experience was learned in real life assaults, not in a training environment. I’m not sure if my perspective and preferences would change or not if I had more formal martial arts training. In all the times that I’ve been threatened, pummeled and flung about none of the jerks was ever a Ninja or Kung Fu Master. I think the odds are pretty low that any SHTF invader or assailant would be a trained martial artist… I think the two mindsets are a bit in opposition.

[/quote]

Generally speaking yes, most violent or criminal people will not have advanced training. But they often have experience (though not always, like that overconfident white guy in the mindset video) which does count for a lot. Personally I have a fair amount of training but little real-world experience, and while I train hard I don’t know how well that will compare to someone with little formal training but lots of personal fighting experience.  My Kung Fu San Soo instructor said when he was younger he and many of his fellow students were encouraged to get a lot of "personal experience" and as such were probably much more willing to get in street fights and brawls as compared with most martial artists.  He did qualify that by saying that there was a certain high level of "competitiveness" within the schools in that area during the 70’s (not quite "Karate Kid Cobra Kai" mindset but certainly not shying away from conflict either) and that he would NOT encourage that nowadays, but nonetheless his myriad experiences over that time did a lot in honing his skills.  So while the odds are low, there might be that odd SHTF assailant with a lot of experience (maybe with some training as well) that will make him/her a formidable opponent.  I think the fact that you’ve had fighting experience (no matter how unpleasant the circumstances may have been) counts for a lot, and is just as valuable as training.  Formal training in certain arts would make you that much better.  Probably not much opportunity for that where you’re going to (heck even in Delta Junction/Fort Greely there’s not really a place for me to train!), but perhaps your hubby is willing to help train you?

[quote] P.S. Is there an Epileptic Drunken Monkey style? Maybe I’d be able to learn that… 

[/quote]

Don’t know about that, but I can give a recommendation for Krav Maga…. they focus heavily on intensity, stamina, and dogged perseverance, and realize that fine motor skills play a lesser role for most of us in a real fight.  And they also teach some ground fighting which is good for double-jointed folks like us

– Nickbert

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