The Complete Idiot’s Guide to the New World Order
Like Chris, I have three beliefs:
1) Government bureaucracies are run by MORONS.
2) Corporations are run by MORONS.
3) The great majority of the population behave like MORONS.
And you wonder why we’re in this mess?
[quote=Sam]It still begs the question – why do this in the first place?[/quote]
Morning Sam, I look for simple motive like any crime, and it usually follows the money…I’m pasting in my previous post again…
…this is where I part with the 9/11 conspiracists. I doubt it was a US govt operation…bureaucrats are too inept to pull it off. If anything, the most plausible to me is that it was done by the Silverstein financial interests who owned the WTC. Total payout to them when all the court cases are over could be $7 billion. The owners would be in the best position to demolish the buildings…the same way people burn their own houses. For Silverstein to pull it off, they would need certain moles inside the govt (cia, fbi, fema), but this doesn’t mean the government was behind it.
Billionaires do crazy things. Most didn’t get a billion by being nice, loving people. It wouldn’t be hard for one billionaire to coordinate with another billionaire family named Bin Laden and buyoff the necessary people in govt.[/quote]
While I agree with your comment, "Billionaires do crazy things.", it begs the question: Why would a government cabal help Silverstein pull it off? And how did they get 19 Saudi Arabians to hijack the planes? Not to mention the fact that they also went after the Pentagon and the fourth plane was destined for Washington, DC.
Are you perhaps suggesting that the idea was to destroy the Pentagon and Congress so that whoever dreamed this up could take over the country? Except Bush and Cheney were out of the line of fire, so that wouldn’t have worked.
At the same time, you are asking me to believe that it was all kept top secret in spite of the number of people that had to be involved to prep two 110-story building’s, as well as Building 7, for being blown up. I also have a hard time believing that all the investigating groups, including the 9/11 commission, could have been silenced or bought off.
Also, the idea that all the debris was quickly carted away (which actually took months) to hide the fact that explosives were used is also weak.
With all due respect to your intelligence, Strabes, can’t you see that there are too many holes in your theory?
Has everyone, here, watched the Zeitgeistmovie? For those that haven’t, it (the move) may clear up some questions concerning some of these conspiracy issues written on this thread. I think it adequately deals with all of the issues but whether or not you’ll agree is another issue.
[quote=Mike Pilat]I’ve seen many explanations for the potential for explosives (notably thermite). Explosives certainly would explain a lot of what happened, but I think the biggest hurdle to get over would be installing them. Though difficult, I don’t see this as impossible.
To the issue of people keeping a secret: Our government’s secrets in this country is compartmentalized. The result is that people only know very specific and disconnected pieces of the big picture. Even though thousands of people might work on a project, only the very few at the top will see how all the pieces are interconnected. So I say there is at least a possibility that this could still be kept a secret for the simple reason that if it were a "conspiracy" then only a very few people really needed to know the full picture.
While the activity is being conducted, it is possible that the worker bees wouldn’t connect the dots. However, after 9/11, don’t you think a lot of those workers would be going, "HEY – Wait a minute, here!". To suggest that everyone would continue to remain silent after the fact stretches my imagination to a breaking point.
[quote=Mike Pilat]I do find the "official" 9/11 investigative report very troubling. I don’t believe it addresses building 7 and certainly seems incomplete. I would have expected a 10 year bureaucratic investigative process, but we got no such thing.
Another question I’ve had is why did we promptly remove and destroy or secure all evidence? Why aren’t we still picking through the ruins of the towers so that we can better learn how to build better buildings? This is the biggest building disaster in history, surely our government would allow scientists to comb the wreckage, right?[/quote]
The ruins were in place for months -it was impossible for anyone to "promptly remove and destroy or secure all evidence".
[quote=Mike Pilat]And now let’s just use the "trust yourself" / gut check type approach: 9/11 allowed for the biggest expansion of (Unconstitutional) government powers that we’ve ever seen. Cheney was right, perception did lag reality (oops! is still lagging reality). [/quote]
Call me naive, but I still can’t believe even Cheney would create this horror to increase governmental power. Besides, we now have a new President – if Bush/Cheney were going to take over this country, they would have done it before Nov. 4, 2008.
[quote=Mike Pilat]It troubles, angers, and disappoints me that the people in this
country, particularly the liberals, have not fought the Patriot Act
more forcefully. We’ve had our Liberties given away and we paid the
price with inflation to boot.[/quote]
I agree – but short of a national uprising and all of us marching on Washington, DC with pitchforks and torches (and a guillotine or two), I don’t see it happening in the near term. Perhaps this will change some day – I hope so but I’m not counting on it in my lifetime.
[quote=Mike Pilat]Finally, if 9/11 was a "conspiracy," it wouldn’t be the first time this has happened. Word has it that Roman emperors engaged in domestic terrorism repeatedly for the purpose of consolidating their power and pushing their agendas. Franklin Roosevelt was warned by the Aussie’s that a Japanese carrier group was going to Hawai’i 2 days before Pearl Harbor, yet he took no action. Imagine the boost in approval ratings that he got just after December 7th. Our CIA has given LSD and other drugs to civilians without their informed consent, has pursued and executed political assassinations around the globe in secret, and has been implicated in numerous corrupt arms and drug smuggling operations. My simple question is this: Are we really safe if we default to trust without being sure it has been earned?
Simple answer – no. The conspiracies that you just listed are true. I don’t deny that our government has a sordid history but, human nature being what it is, I think you would be hard pressed to find any government that doesn’t have a sordid history!
[quote=Mike Pilat]So my "official" stance is that I’m not sure 9/11 was intentional or known before hand, but it wouldn’t surprise me if there was a lot of fault on the part of our own government. I find the official 9/11 investigation weak, to say the least and I demand something better. I hope that more civilians and indies will continue to find the truth about this event, because I know I haven’t heard the full, untarnished truth yet. I simply cannot blindly trust a government that refuses to trust me.
I think the fault is the short attention span of the American people – honed by decades of seeing problems solved in 30 minutes or 1 hour on the boob-tube.
I agree that we need a government more responsive to those it was meant to serve – whether that may be regained some day is debatable.
[quote=CB]Sam, I didn’t say "the gummint done it" and "adjust facts backward".[/quote]
Please understand that I wasn’t referring to you when I made that statement in response to Larry. It was designed to be a general comment – a jab at those who do not engage in critical thinking. It is my belief that a significant majority of folks who have found their way to PeakProsperity.com (and stayed to read and/or post) are critical thinkers or they wouldn’t be here in the first place.
[quote=CB]Critical thinking says that when a profferd explanation does not explain the evidence then that explanation cannot be true and must be rejected.[/quote]
Absolutely agree – that’s where critical thinking comes into play.
[quote=CB]It is terrible to think that a few zealots armed with box cutters could defeat the defenses of the most powerful nation on earth. Improbable, really.[/quote]
I’m not sure why you are so surprised. We are such a technically powerful nation that we delude ourselves into thinking every problem (and every solution) just has to be complex. What the 19 hijackers did was use our own system against us. Our refusal to conceive of, and prepare for, such a scenario is a testament to our short-sightedness and arrogance.
Look at the problems our technically powerful military is having in Iraq and Afghanistan. We drive these incredibly expensive (and technical) Humvees around over there and watch them get blown up by simple roadside bombs! The Taliban are hardly a modern, technically competent military force – yet look at how well they are able to damage our military forces using quite simple techniques.
[quote=CB]It is also improbable that standard, simple procedures designed prevent such a plot from succeeding could so utterly fail, not once, but three times in one day.[/quote]
Not correct. This country never prepared for an attack from inside the US. All our force was designed and staged to turn back an attack from outside our borders. By the time TPTB realized what was happening, it was already too late.
[quote=CB]On the other hand it is impossible for planes crashing into the WTC to have caused their complete destruction – and photographic evidence and eyewitness testimony shows that, in fact, this is not what happened. This evidence does show that planes crashed into the towers and subsequently they were destroyed by a series of explosions. In fact, this is exactly what was reported in the media on 9-11-01. I reiterate, when confronted with a truth so monstrous it is easier for most people to believe a lie.[/quote]
Since I’ve already addressed this part in other posts, I won’t repeat myself here.
[quote=CB]The building owner had possession of two enormous white elephants laced with asbestos that would have been enormously expensive to mitigate. Following their destruction he received a multi-billion dollar insurance payout and the mess was cleaned up at public expense. All health and damage claims were shifted to the public.[/quote]
No argument here.
[quote=CB]Two wars were started and legislation was enacted without substantial review that allowed access to financial and telecommunications traffic for the entire nation – in secret, without the possibility of court review. Indefinite detention of citizens in secret, without access to legal recourse was asserted merely by mentioning the suspicion of "terrorism" or threat to the state. Numerous private companies received enormous no-bid contracts to provide secret military and intelligence services.[/quote]
All this is true. In fact, here in Portland, Oregon we watched one of our own citizens (a lawyer, no less) detained by the FBI for over two weeks without being allowed to see his family or contact a lawyer. He was the one that had his finger print mistaken for one in the Spanish train bombings. He was finally released by the FBI with an apology when they realized they had screwed up royally. He sued and collected over a million dollars – funded by you and I of course!
[quote=CB]We will see these changes continue to bear fruit – beyond what has occurred over the past 8 years…[/quote]
I sympathize with your frustration but I cannot accept that there is a conspiracy around every corner. Now, if you said there was an idiot around every corner you’d find me in total agreement!
you left one out mike
4) conspiracies are perpetrated by morons
and no i do not wonder why we are in this mess.
it is not becouse of morons. it is because of………………………..
[quote=CB]Sam, I should add that I am a scientist by trade. A few years ago some colleagues who had published findings related to warming and climate change were hauled in front of a congressional committee and interrogated, their records subpoenaed, and their professional relationships analyzed by a military contractor using analytical software designed to hunt for terrorist cells in an attempt to intimidate them and discredit their work. Its a brave new world beginning… again….
Believe me when I say I’m not surprised. If our government entities spent half as much time trusting the American people rather than constantly working against them we would all be better off.
Unfortunately, big business doesn’t want to hear anything that will impede their ongoing ability to rape this country and they make sure those in government see it their way!
Lenin was right when he purportedly said, "The capitalist will sell you the rope to hang him with."
I don’t believe anybody from the Matrix…..
Me either. Gimme anudder RED pill!
You also forget Prof Albert Bartlett’s great quote: "Humanity’s greatest shortcoming is its inability to understand the exponential function".
In the back of my mind I’ve always had that scene from ‘Conan the Barbarian’ where Swartz is sneaking into the ‘cult’ and is asked "What are you contemplating?" He replies "Infinity".
I think this is our greatest failure as persons, but I can’t expect anyone to. There is too much to rule out anything…
Sam, I find it interesting that after you watched the video of building 7 going down you thought that it must be doctored. It is not. That building went straight down. Three different angles:
Not doctored, just engineered.