Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation

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  • Mon, Jan 05, 2009 - 09:11pm

    #11

    Damnthematrix

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    Re: Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation

Hi emdiaz…..

Some weeks ago, I started a thread called "what if".  You could search for it  Maybe it could be restarted, just like this one  miraculously has….

That scenario went like this:

WE ALL stop paying taxes and debt repayments.  I know this is thinking outside the Matrix, but I believe the time has come to start thinking on completely new terms.  Today is not like yesterday.  IS IT!?  Just bear with me…..

THEN, we continue doing the things we all do, for NOTHING.  No pay.  Without debts and taxes, who needs money?  We already have everything we need, even everything we want!  WE on this site all agree we can’t continue growing (right?) so we continue without growth.  We could all probably get along with ‘working’  at our old jobs for a day or two a week, whilst we enjoy the leisure time and grow our own food and tinker in the basement fixing things that break instead of throwing them away for new ones…

So, if you’re pumping gas at the local station, for free, GIVE THE GAS AWAY EVEN, knowing that at the end of the day, you have done your bit and walk into a shop and TAKE what you need to survive another day in some sort of comfort.

You could visit the doctor for free….  because he/she knows the mechanic will service his/her Merc for nothing….

With a much slower pace (working just a day or two) consumption of everything (even food I surmise!) would slow right down

In the ‘what if’ thread, I was told that there would be people who would abuse the system.  So I ask, is that not the case now?  It’s also often said that people like me who strive for self sufficiency will one day be raided by the starving, people who do not pull their weight.  Everyone seems to thing that ‘the bad people’ will have a hold on us ‘the good people’.  I’ve been thinking about this….  a lot in fact as I build another fence in an attempt to contain our ducks from attacks by wildlife and neighbors’ dogs…

Why could WE not have a hold on them?  I rather like to think we outnumber bad people.  If they are not willing to play the new world order, they don’t get fed, they don’t get to see the doctor, they get NOTHING…..

Now I realise all this ain’t gonna happen overnight.  It’ll take a lot of organising.  But the future is going to be a lot of hard work.  And the future starts today…….

Depressions/recessions are only about money.  Take the money out of the equation, and I propose that the whole thing could fix itself… 

Discuss.

Mike 

  • Mon, Jan 05, 2009 - 09:43pm

    #12
    AnOregonian

    AnOregonian

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    Re: The Blank Slate

[quote=Damnthematrix][quote=rmurfster]

Damnthematrix said:

Americans should FORTHWITH stop all payments on mortgages, car loans and credit cards.


Bring the banks to their knees and renegotiate/cancel all debts.

While I agree with the sentiment, I can’t agree with your solution. You signed a contract agreeing to the interest and payback, so it would be against your word to simply stop paying and demand renegotiation.

Richard[/quote]

You can’t be serious…….

Isn’t there also an underlying contract, when you sign the mortgage documents, that there will actually be a working economy lying around, so that you can extort the necessary funds and resources to actually make the repayments? 

Sorry, but as far as I am concerned, the Matrix has broken its underlying contract, all bets are off.  Time to REBOOT! 

Mike 

[/quote]

 

Mike,

I have to agree with murfster on this one. While it sounds appealing to you that there be major reboot (because you have already removed yourself from the grid), the majority of us are in a different situation and it would not serve us well if society at large did a major reboot.

When I had my little house built (1600 sq. ft.) in 2003, I made a contract with the builder and my local bank. My ethics require me to pay the debt that was loaned to me in good faith. I don’t care what the rest of the banking industry is doing – I made a deal and, come hell or high water, I plan to honor it. It has nothing to do with whether "…there will actually be a working economy lying around…". As long as I can obtain the funds from somewhere, I will pay on my mortgage. Of course, if my bank went belly up, and there was no one left to pay the mortgage to, then that would be a different story.

When I lived in California in the 90’s, I was upside down on my mortgage for many years. It never once occurred to me during that time to walk away from my obligation and I am dismayed at the attitude in this country that seems to think it’s become an acceptable practice. BTW, in time my mortgage "righted itself" and I was able to sell my house at a small profit.

  • Tue, Jan 06, 2009 - 04:04am

    #13

    Damnthematrix

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    Re: The Blank Slate

[quote=SamLinder]Mike,

I have to agree with murfster on this one. While it sounds appealing to you that there be major reboot (because you have already removed yourself from the grid), the majority of us are in a different situation and it would not serve us well if society at large did a major reboot.

When I had my little house built (1600 sq. ft.) in 2003, I made a contract with the builder and my local bank. My ethics require me to pay the debt that was loaned to me in good faith. I don’t care what the rest of the banking industry is doing – I made a deal and, come hell or high water, I plan to honor it. It has nothing to do with whether "…there will actually be a working economy lying around…". As long as I can obtain the funds from somewhere, I will pay on my mortgage. Of course, if my bank went belly up, and there was no one left to pay the mortgage to, then that would be a different story.

When I lived in California in the 90’s, I was upside down on my mortgage for many years. It never once occurred to me during that time to walk away from my obligation and I am dismayed at the attitude in this country that seems to think it’s become an acceptable practice. BTW, in time my mortgage "righted itself" and I was able to sell my house at a small profit.

[/quote]

Sam….  you make the classic mistake of ignoring the BIG PICTURE.

The current debt can NEVER be repaid.   Now I’ve mentioned this many times in the many posts I’ve generated, but there does seem to be an awful lot of new readers here, and most of the oldies have dropped off the perch, so I will re-iterate why I think the way I do.

To pay the interest on any debt, much cash needs to be printed.  To justify all this new cash, economic growth is imperative, this is why the PTB constantly insist we have to have growth, and consternation abounds when it disappears….  such as now.  I believe we have hit the limits to growth, by and large.  IF demand for oil returns, it will spiral back up, and another crash will occur.  This may happen, maybe even several times, I don’t know.  But one thing I’m certain of, is that business as usual is finished.

With BAU all done for, paying off debts becomes immaterail really.  We need a new Matrix.  Have you seen this:  https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/peak-capitalism/11165

Mike 

  • Tue, Jan 06, 2009 - 04:31am

    #15

    Damnthematrix

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    the end of capitalism

Another excerpt from the article in my last post above.. 

The Solution

Socialism is
predicated on the premise that in order for society to operate in the
interests of the majority, everyone must have both a voice and vote in
democratically determining its direction. Instead of the economy being
owned by a wealthy elite who run it entirely in their own interests
while impoverishing billions of people around the world and destroying
the environment, it would be placed in public hands. And its basic
operating framework would then be determined by a public discussion,
with all the relevant information available, followed by a debate and
vote. In this way, the economy could be steered onto an entirely
rational foundation so that its ability to serve the interests of ALL
members of society would be maximized coupled with the recognition that
our collective interests can only be served when the environment, which
nurtures and sustains us, is healthy and vibrant.

Such a
revolutionary transformation would represent a tremendous moral advance
for humanity: the impulses of individual self-interest and greed would
be replaced by a conscious commitment to defend the interests of
everyone. Instead of the weak and frail being cast by the wayside to
fend for themselves, society would redouble its efforts to ensure that
their needs, too, were properly addressed. Instead of living by the
uninspiring dictum, “Everyone for him or herself,” we would embrace the
principle, “An injury to one is an injury to all” because, in the final
analysis, the well-being of each individual is bound by millions of
invisible threads to the well-being of all others.

Conclusion

The
stakes are high. The U.S. working class will be reevaluating everything
in these next years, and in particular the nature of the capitalist
economy which runs most efficiently when wages and benefits are at rock
bottom, or when workers can be replaced by machines and when
unemployment is high. Although workers might not succeed in
overthrowing capitalism during this profound economic crisis, their
consciousness will emerge transformed. Capitalism will never again
enjoy their unquestioning loyalty. If this crisis does not prove to be
the end of capitalism, it will be the beginning of the end.

Ann Robertson is a writer for Workers Action (www.workerscompass.org), and can be reached at [email protected]

  • Tue, Jan 06, 2009 - 04:32am

    #14

    Damnthematrix

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    The End of Capitalism?

The End of Capitalism?

By Ann Robertson

January 05, 2009 "Information Clearinghouse" — -The collective consciousness of the U.S. working class is on the brink of a profound transformation.
We grew up being told that capitalism was the best of all possible
systems, with apparent confirmation being supplied by the fall of the
Soviet Union. But we are now entering a new reality that has the
potential to overturn all the old, established assumptions perhaps, in
the final analysis, even to overturn capitalism itself.

<MORE>
  • Tue, Jan 06, 2009 - 04:40am

    #16
    AnOregonian

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    Re: The Blank Slate

[quote=Damnthematrix]

[quote=SamLinder]Mike,

I have to agree with murfster on this one. While it sounds appealing to you that there be major reboot (because you have already removed yourself from the grid), the majority of us are in a different situation and it would not serve us well if society at large did a major reboot.

When I had my little house built (1600 sq. ft.) in 2003, I made a contract with the builder and my local bank. My ethics require me to pay the debt that was loaned to me in good faith. I don’t care what the rest of the banking industry is doing – I made a deal and, come hell or high water, I plan to honor it. It has nothing to do with whether "…there will actually be a working economy lying around…". As long as I can obtain the funds from somewhere, I will pay on my mortgage. Of course, if my bank went belly up, and there was no one left to pay the mortgage to, then that would be a different story.

When I lived in California in the 90’s, I was upside down on my mortgage for many years. It never once occurred to me during that time to walk away from my obligation and I am dismayed at the attitude in this country that seems to think it’s become an acceptable practice. BTW, in time my mortgage "righted itself" and I was able to sell my house at a small profit.

[/quote]

Sam….  you make the classic mistake of ignoring the BIG PICTURE.

The current debt can NEVER be repaid.   Now I’ve mentioned this many times in the many posts I’ve generated, but there does seem to be an awful lot of new readers here, and most of the oldies have dropped off the perch, so I will re-iterate why I think the way I do.

To pay the interest on any debt, much cash needs to be printed.  To justify all this new cash, economic growth is imperative, this is why the PTB constantly insist we have to have growth, and consternation abounds when it disappears….  such as now.  I believe we have hit the limits to growth, by and large.  IF demand for oil returns, it will spiral back up, and another crash will occur.  This may happen, maybe even several times, I don’t know.  But one thing I’m certain of, is that business as usual is finished.

With BAU all done for, paying off debts becomes immaterail really.  We need a new Matrix.  Have you seen this:  https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/peak-capitalism/11165

Mike 

[/quote]

Mike,

[Have you seen this:  https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/peak-capitalism/11165%5D

Yes I have and it’s very interesting. However, you and I are talking at different levels past each other. Regardless of the state of the BIG PICTURE, my ethical standard is that I honor my debts – period. The only way that I will default on a debt that I incurred in good faith will be as mentioned above – that the entity that I owe money to disappears and the debt thereby ceases to exist as there is no one to pay it to.

The current debt can NEVER be repaid.

This statement may well be true – but my debt can, and will, be repaid.

Even though you insist our current societal system is going to come crashing down on our heads at any minute, I choose not to believe that it will all disappear in an instant puff of smoke. Things may well get worse before they get better but society will survive in one form or another. I’m perfectly willing to accept that your agricultural lifestyle may become the new norm some day but, until that happens, I’ll have to keep on keeping on.  Wink

  • Tue, Jan 06, 2009 - 04:46am

    #17
    emdiaz

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    Re: Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation

Damnthematrix you made me laugh. 

I am ready for the changes since I have more than what we need even if my friends think that I don’t have enough. My husband will have a very hard time because he still hopeful that this will only last until mid 2010.  I cannot tell him that times are bad and that I am ready for whatever will happen. He was OK with me having a garden and learning many skills because in his head I was saving money but inflation or the system changes will greatly destroy him.  He mind can only go as far as that people are losing there houses and that means that they are losing all that money that they paid on interest. His brain can and will not even consider thinking that a lot of those people will be homeless and will not have food to feed their kids.  For my husband capitalism is the best because for him as for millions of people it represents private property and free market.  I just know that the cloud of depression will be around for a while and there is no enough Prozac to take care of the next 20 years.  In the meantime we have 3 acres farm 4 hours from my house that I will move in spring to start working on it. I have collected many fruit trees and seed but I need to study the land, sun and water before I plant anything but that is another subject.

  • Tue, Jan 06, 2009 - 05:17am

    #18

    jrf29

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    Re: Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation

I have a few words to say on the subject of this BLANK SLATE:

It seems to me that many people are tempted to envision the destruction of our societal structures as a great levelling force which will lead to a simpler, more placid future where people live together peacefully, and share what they have in an egalitarian manner.

The religious and cultural heritage of the West embraces the mythic idea of a great fall, then cleansing by fire, followed by a rebirth in a new and better form.  I have spoken with many people, and particularly among those who are religious, this vague idea of a "purification by fire" followed by a rebirth is a recurring theme in many people’s thinking on the subject of an economic crash, or revolution.  Well, they could be right, but careful examination of all the revolutions and collapses in recorded history seems to show that there is very little that is just about the outcome of such times.  People are killed arbitrarily, revolutionary governments become despotic and draconian, people become brutal and less charitable, local strongmen emerge who extort their neighbors, and it is only much later that things begin to improve.  The problem is that once the normal restraints that hold human behavior in check are gone, its pretty hard to get a revolution to stop.

In the case of revolution, it doesn’t matter if you have formed a small community.  Entire counties will be extorted for the supplies they need.  Not necessarily physical violence, but costs of everything will be high, including lifesaving medecine, and those who mediate the supply of such things will feel entitled to their cut.   

Look at virtually every revolution in history, and what do you find?  Brutality, butchery, terror, that goes on and on.  Look at the democratic revolution in France.  The Terror became an institution.

America revolted against Britain, but we did so with our local governmental structures fully intact.  Our own internal leaders were not overthrown, which made for an internally peaceful "revolution."  The power we were rebelling against was foreign.  It was essentially as though one nation were fighting another nation.  This ability to preserve our local government was key.

Now take Shay’s Rebellion.  My own town happens to have played a key part in that little pre-Constitutional episode.  Even though the Massachusetts state militia soundly crushed the rebellion, the local leaders were shaken.  Afterward, the local legislatures passed laws nullifying most of the debts of the people.  A very happy outcome for the farmers.

So the thing to do, it seems to me, is not to smash the system and create two decades of revolutionary misery.  Our basic democratic tradition is good.  We merely have to wrest some power back out of the hands of the federal government and place it back where it was: into the hands of the state and towns –closer to the people — so that government will be more responsive to the people once again, and all the things that the people wish to accomplish can be accomplished. 

But democracy is a very fragile thing.  If you smash the system entirely, peace and tranquility is the last thing you will get.

  • Tue, Jan 06, 2009 - 06:42am

    #19
    grl

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    Re: Scenario: Implosion, Collapse, & Liberation

Wow, I must say that the only people who made any sense to me on this post is jrf29 and Sam; some of you, I think, are amoral and the rest of you are dreaming if you think there can be any of the new world scenarios you envision without massive suffering and bloodshed. Unless you are squirreled away, far far away, self-sufficient and well-armed, the utopian dreams I read here will be anything but. Let’s face it, civility is but a thin veneer.

  • Sun, Feb 08, 2009 - 06:11am

    #20
    tecfiddler

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    Re: The Blank Slate

Just a question for you?  Did they loan you the Money?  Or did they create it out of thin air creating what they call New Money. 

They created the money.  

I agree if you have a contract and someone loans you something and you are supposed to repay it with interest for the use of it. 

But When the original contract is fradulent and they did not loan you money but created it and expect you to pay it back with interest and they have nothing at risk. 

What is the deal. 

They loaned you their credit and they want to get your assets for free.   

 

 

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