SC2 Surface Transmission

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  • Wed, Jul 01, 2020 - 02:12pm

    #1
    Redneck Engineer

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    SC2 Surface Transmission

A few weeks back the CDC declared that surface transmission was unlikely.

What’s the best science on this at this point? Is the CDC correct?

I hope it’s true. It would change a number of things, from personal protection protocols to receiving and handling packages. Right now, my company quarantines incoming packages 24 -72 hours depending on the outer packing material. I’m working against a tight deadline, so getting parts without having to sit in quarantine would be a big benefit.

Thanks!

  • Thu, Jul 02, 2020 - 09:55am

    #2
    Chief Stonehouse

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    SC2 Surface Transmission

This reminds me of a book I red several years ago “The Speed of Trust” by Covey Jr.

 

The jist of it was as trust decreases things slow down.  You can’t trust your packages are not contaminated, so you had to slow down with a quarantine process.

 

I think the UV-C industry could boom.  If you rigged a conveyor system to process your packages through a doghouse of UV-C lamps you might be able to reduce days to tens of minutes.  Include something that trips the package to tumble over to get the underside etc.

 

There are medical grade UV-C lights available, but UV-C is not good for the eyes

 

Chief S.

  • Thu, Jul 02, 2020 - 10:12am

    #3
    tbp

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    SC2 Surface Transmission

It’s hard to know for sure, but think about the situation… A virion is so tiny it’d be difficult for it to happen to be deposited on any particular surface, then get attached to your fingers and then reach your face and somehow enter your throat and then lungs. And then you need a lot of them (at least 1000 virions I heard the fake TV “news” recently say). To me it always seemed like fear-mongering. Even most people can’t spread it through the air asymptomatically. It seems that only the viral load from a superspreader can actually spread it, and that depends primarily on nutrient sufficiency, especially and above all vitamin D levels.

  • Thu, Jul 02, 2020 - 03:13pm

    #4
    Pappy

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    SC2 Surface Transmission

tbp has the math that guides my actions.

Here’s my protocols:

  1. Mail and delivery packages with paper/cardboard packaging are brought in the house and let sit for 2 hours as I wash my hands.  Any deposited virus would be from the last handler coughing or equivalent and should be neutralized due to the desication.
  2. Delivered groceries in plastic containers are brought in and washed in the sink instantly (milk, OJ, Yogurt, etc.)
  3. Delivered groceries that don’t need refrigeration are just left in the garage overnight.

Other than those items, I just wash or sanitize my hands after touching public items (gas pumps, store door handles, etc.).

We haven’t had take-out since March, partly to limit interactions with people and mostly to save money for a homestead.  Restaurants are expensive.  Tasty and good for the overall economy, but bad for my economy.

I’d love any critique or to hear further opinions.

  • Thu, Jul 02, 2020 - 03:37pm

    #5
    speakcat

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    Reply To: SC2 Surface Transmission

A question for tbp. I don’t get it. Why does a virion’s small size have much of anything to do with difficulty being deposited on surfaces? Are not there a lot of other factors even more important? Virion moisture or stickiness? Porosity of surface? All those little protrusions on Sars-Cov-2 cells? And many more factors.

  • Fri, Jul 03, 2020 - 06:38pm

    #6
    JWhite

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    SC2 Surface Transmission

The word ‘unlikely’ is problematic.  I haven’t seen any studies other than the 2 below, which you have probably also seen on this site.  But if you need to get into a package right away, you can put gloves on and wipe the outside of the box/package, as well as the contents, with a bleach solution (or spray with 70-75% ethanol or isopropyl alcohol), which should inactivate any virus particles.  I tend to sanitize the gloves and hands with a 70% ethanol mix afterwards.  The first article includes a table of biocidal agents which are effective with classic Sars-Cov and a table of persistence of coronaviruses on inanimate surfaces, and the 2nd article shows  stability of SC2 on some surfaces (information which your company is likely using).

https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/S0195-6701(20)30046-3/fulltext

Recent clarifications to the article above:

https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/S0195-6701(20)30285-1/fulltext

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.09.20033217v2.full.pdf

  • Fri, Jul 03, 2020 - 10:06pm

    #7
    Chief Stonehouse

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    Reply To: SC2 Surface Transmission

The first link from JWhite reiterates the 9 day standard that I first heard from Chris months ago.  We isolate mail and packages for 9 days.  Besides the wrapper, the contents may have also been exposed on a just in time assembly line.  Our food that does not need refrigeration also gets the 9 day quarantine in bins with lids.  The bins are brought into a store room above the garage and set in a UV-C bath for 30 minutes before storage for nine days.  Food that gets refrigerated is cleaned outside with detergent soap for 30 seconds in a BPA free food bucket, five gallon,  and rinsed before bringing into the home.  This is done with mask and gloves.

We plan ahead for supplies and nothing is worth more than preserving the lives of your family.  This has worked for six months now.  The liquid dish detergent soap is cheap and abundant, more cost effective than wipes or alcohol and such.

For business that need to move parts and supplies more quickly, I recommend investigating UV-C light treatments to speed things up.

 

C. Stone

 

  • Sun, Jul 05, 2020 - 08:13pm

    #8
    Peggy

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    SC2 Surface Transmission

I disinfect ALL packages, and everything else with a bleach solution. It’s effective and inexpensive. 1 c water to 1 tsp bleach, let it air dry. I think it takes a minute to kill covid.

I would pull the packages you need and wipe them down.

  • Mon, Jul 06, 2020 - 01:15pm

    #9
    Redneck Engineer

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    SC2 Surface Transmission

Is there any new data on surface transmission suggesting it is less likely to be an issue than previously thought?

  • Tue, Jul 07, 2020 - 04:52am

    #10
    tbp

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    SC2 Surface Transmission

A question for tbp. I don’t get it. Why does a virion’s small size have much of anything to do with difficulty being deposited on surfaces? Are not there a lot of other factors even more important? Virion moisture or stickiness? Porosity of surface? All those little protrusions on Sars-Cov-2 cells? And many more factors.

Virions may travel in exhaled water particles, then land / be deposited on surfaces, but then touching one and it getting attached to your finger, before it denatures (breaks apart), seems to me to be quite difficult. I don’t think they’re sticky by themselves (the spike proteins aren’t really spiky), and moisture wouldn’t be a major factor because it should dry in a matter of seconds. Once dried it seems to me difficult to be picked up by a finger. Remember that when you “touch” an object, you’re not really touching (physically coming in contact with) it; rather, electrons from a few cells on your fingers are interacting with a few electrons of the object, allowing you to experience the sensation of touch and define the object as “solid” (but it’s really a vibratory resonance within you slowed down to the point of being perceptible by your senses). The smaller the object, the less ability to “touch” it. So when you “touch” something in the hundreds of nanometers in size, how much of it can you touch? It’s hard to say, but my guess is it should be difficult to move a virion from a dry surface to one’s lungs even if you tried.

9-day quarantine seems very excessive to me, I mean the longest it could reportedly survive was 4-5 days on paper, glass, and plastic, and that’s the longest any significant amount of virions would remain; the half-life would be much shorter than that. Early on, during the exponential phase when we didn’t know that much about the virus, I would do 6-hours or 12-hours for packages (cardboard fomites could reportedly remain up to 24h)… but 9 days today? Now we open packages right away, only washing our hands afterwards.

Is there any new data on surface transmission suggesting it is less likely to be an issue than previously thought?

I think there’s a lack of data other than the WHO now saying don’t worry about fomites / surfaces transmission.

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