Sam Linder, indefinite ban

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  • Wed, Jul 08, 2009 - 04:22am

    #1

    Gungnir

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    Sam Linder, indefinite ban

Well where to start this thread.

Sam has been given an indefinite ban by the Moderators in consultation with Chris. I have read the mail explaining Sam’s ban and I understand the nature of apparently why this has occurred. However I do want us to take pause for a moment and consider some important facts.

We all came here to learn about the 3 E’s, and discuss these issues, to learn from one another and to foster a community, this seemed to be going well for a significant period of time. Now during the course of this time we have had controversial topics crop up, but they’ve been given their own location now, in the controversial topics forum, and there have been frictions and harsh words spoken on many occasions, with ultimately the situation resolved amicably.

Now Joe2Baba posted a somewhat controversial thread on July 4th he had some complaints about the moderation taking place on the forum. I must admit I’ve had some discussions on certain topics with the moderation of the threads at times, Chris made a response to that, I’ll post it a little later. To a degree I agreed with Aaron’s perception of the thread, however I also feel that at times moderation is a little arbitrary.

Thus on to the final point, the thing that led to Sam being indefinitely suspended was his participation in a religious thread within the controversial topics forum. Now the first question is how does the secular 3 E’s relate to the religious, secondly we need to ask a question that was asked before the thread that I’ve been moderated on and Sam was suspended on was posted, the question was posed by Dr. Martenson "Is there anything about this post which might cause a new visitor to flee?". The thread in question I will not mention, however there are now three threads in similar veins, in the CT section. Personally had I come to the site with new eyes and seen these threads I would have fled, Economy, Environment, and Energy is what brought me here, discussion about how to survive while all three are reduced is what kept me, and for the longest time there were no religious threads posted.

While I’m not saying that religion, spirituality and belief in lifes great mysteries have no place in peoples minds, I am questioning the rationale of discussing them on this site, when there are many other sites already dedicated to these topics for those so inclined. I’m also questioning the rationale of allowing exclusive descriptions of the thread topic so that they are directed at specific inspirations from a religion or belief system that is exclusionary of all others. If we wish to foster community, then we need to be inclusionary not exclusionary. As I say in my initial sentence of this paragraph it is not that religion, spirituality or any other belief do not have a part to play in people’s lives, just that there are better forums for discussion than this one. If we cannot demonstrate tolerance to differing opinions, which applies to all sides of these arguments, on a site where we have so much in common, then how do we plan on successfully promoting these ideas, and fostering communities with others who have less in common?

Now with the quote below, I want us all, the secular, religious, theist, atheist, gnostic, agnostic, rational, irrational, emotional and logical to look at the words written by Dr. M and think before you post on any topic that has no direct relevancy to the 3 E’s or survival due to impacts in all of these areas. I think that in part there is a mixed message being sent out, and a miscommunication between Dr. M and the Moderators, now I might be mistaken, however reading at face value the statements quoted below, I cannot see how. Personally I’m sad to see Sam go, he has been a valued and important member of the community, at times quick to anger, but equally quick to laugh.

I leave you with Chris Martenson’s quote.

[quote=cmartenson]

I am going to leave Joe’s post up for the rest of the day as an example of the type of posts that I find mainly destructive in their intent, and then delete it.

Passive-aggressive posts are among my least favorites, and Joe2 has really nailed the art-form on this one.

The purpose of this site is to attract more people to the important messages in the Crash Course and create a safe place for people to discuss the implications.

Anything that causes people to feel unwelcome or unsafe is simply not allowed and that is clearly spelled out in the forum posting guidelines.    Anything that might cause fewer people to visit and remain at the site is running counter to the mission of this site.

The mission is to attract not repel people.

Further, from this point forward any and all insinuations that there’s something wrong with this site needing to attract capital or resources to further its mission will not be tolerated.  I don’t know what sorts of wounds people carry that cause them to say things like, "believe me i would do nothing to hinder the capitalistic aims of this site." but this is not a psychiatrists office and we lack both the ability and the desire to help people work through their personal issues around money.

Everything that is worth doing in life deserves and requires support.  That could be donated time, money, equipment, or careful thoughts and considered posts.  I don’t require or expect everybody to think that the aims of this site and its messages are worthy, but I do require that those, such as Joe2, who do not share this view to either keep their opinions to themselves or take their enmity towards the aims of this site elsewhere.

Lastly, in my mind, Joe2 has abused his anonymity and the site guidelines by posting written words that he would dare not speak in person.  At least, I would be truly shocked to have someone walk into my establishment and stare me in the eye while proclaiming loudly to all the patrons that the products are suspect or overpriced or whatever. 

I will continue to hold this site to a higher standard than found elsewhere on the web.  We will be civil with each other, respectful, thoughtful and considerate. 

I want posts to be data rich, and constructive (especially if critical).  This is not my attempt to stifle conversation but to elevate it.  I am not seeking compliance with my point of view or how this site is constructed and/or operated, only asking that all critiques be accompanied by thoughtful suggestions for improvement, or not proffered at all.  Dumping on people and efforts is simple, lame and weak.

Tearing down is easy.  Building is hard.

Negativity breeds negativity while positive efforts yield positive results.

More on this later, as we are busily working on expressing the site’s vision, mission and expectations in written form.

In the meantime I would only ask that posts be self-monitored by asking these questions:

  1. Does this post illuminate an issue or answer a specific question?
  2. If critical, is it emotionally neutral, considerate and does it offer specific, actionable solutions?
  3. Is there anything about this post which might cause a new visitor to flee?

[/quote]

  • Wed, Jul 08, 2009 - 04:36am

    #2
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: Sam Linder, indefinite ban

Personally, I feel this site has gone downhill for some time.  The camaraderie which was here when I first logged on last year seems to have vanished, and Sam is one of those comrades I have made here….  if he goes,… well, I might as well go too, maybe I’ve done what I can here anyway,

There is one thing that really puzzles me though.  This is not the first American forum I have joined, and it baffles me that they ALL turn out like this, and I end up abandoning them.  Why only American forums?  I belong to Australian and European forums, and have been a member there for YEARS with none of this bullshit happening… I truly do not understand you lot.

Very disappointing…

Mike

  • Wed, Jul 08, 2009 - 05:05am

    #3
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: Sam Linder, indefinite ban

[quote=Damnthematrix]

There is one thing that really puzzles me though.  This is not the first American forum I have joined, and it baffles me that they ALL turn out like this, and I end up abandoning them.  Why only American forums?  I belong to Australian and European forums, and have been a member there for YEARS with none of this bullshit happening… I truly do not understand you lot.

[/quote]

An interesting observation.  Makes me wonder how much worse the US will be when there’s large scale food shortages or power outages.  Unlike an online community, a physical community where there’s name calling and insults can escalate into serious violence.  Those will be one of the times when I’m not proud to be an American.

  • Wed, Jul 08, 2009 - 05:28am

    #4
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: Sam Linder, indefinite ban

Moderator Jason:

I should like to point out that I stopped posting more than two months ago — this post is a rare exception — because in part that I felt the site was generally sloping in a downhill direction. In my opinion Sam has not committeed an inexcusable error. Although I rarely post these days, I check in to the site daily and absorb the information. If the site becomes much more controversial I will stop doing that and will withddraw my financial support. I’m a paying customer — for now. If I were you I would take note, for I happen to know that there are others who feel as I do.

My advice is to segregate controversial comments in the appropriate threads, but do not attempt to censor them. That is a big mistake in my humble opinion. The CM website has much to commend it. Don’t screw it up. You are on the cusp of doing that. Thanks for listening to my humble opinion. I’m a 65 year old white male who does a lot of thinking and studying. You are on thin ice, my friend. I have broken my silence to post this brief comment. I do not do this lightly.

Barry

  • Wed, Jul 08, 2009 - 05:41am

    #5
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: Sam Linder, indefinite ban

 Wow

I’m really feeling sad right now.  Sam has really strong opinions and I certainly didn’t always agree with him but I never would have expected him to get kicked out.  

Maybe the controversial topics shouldn’t appear in the recent comment section.  Then, newcomers would be less likely to encounter them right away and get scared off.  It would be like a back room in a restaurant or people at a party stepping outside for a discussion that’s inappropriate for the general gathering. 

becky

  • Wed, Jul 08, 2009 - 06:35am

    #6
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: Sam Linder, indefinite ban

Wow this is one of my favorite sites. I like Sam’s & Joe’s posts because they have their own style & character…. doesn’t mean I agree with them but I can live with that. I never thought I would see these issues transpire here?? I thought this site would be above all this since it always has been I felt. I hate to see tough talk & threats here…lets at least be above that I would think.

Forums are a tough place to keep all happy that is for sure. Chris has helped so many & not asked much in return so common sense for me to respect his guide lines on posting here.

Professionalism & quality posts without petty bickering is super important here IMHO in the tough times that lie ahead. We need each other so let us grow beyond all this.

Peace & Happiness

  • Wed, Jul 08, 2009 - 06:35am

    #7
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: Sam Linder, indefinite ban

[quote=Damnthematrix]

 if he goes,… well, I might as well go too, maybe I’ve done what I can here anyway,

[/quote]

MIke,

You give this community some real character, and I would like to ask you to stick around. We need your unique and sometimes blunt viewpoints to keep us Americans honest. I’m confident that "Sam I Am" will be back. I’m sure he his thoroughly burned out at this point, with over 1000 posts in under a year.

Please hang in there Mike, we need the "down under" perspective that you provide.

  • Wed, Jul 08, 2009 - 06:49am

    #8
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: Sam Linder, indefinite ban

 Yes.  Mike, please stick around.  Don’t give up on us.

becky

  • Wed, Jul 08, 2009 - 06:53am

    #9
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: Sam Linder, indefinite ban

I’m particularly surprised that Sam got banned. For the most part, Sam is mellow as Jell-O and steadfastly polite even when he’s cranky. I would imagine that something along the lines of a total nuclear meltdown would have to occur before he would get so ticked off that he said anything hostile or rude. So, if the most polite of us got inflammed to the point of getting themself banned… either the moderator over-reacted (a common occurance lately it seems), or the topic of the thread really had no business being posted on this particular forum (also highly likely). I’m a relative newcomer, but I’ve seen the quality of discussions on the forums drop significantly in recent weeks and have found myself less motivated to participate.

  • Wed, Jul 08, 2009 - 07:56am

    #10
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: Sam Linder, indefinite ban

[quote=Damnthematrix]

There is one thing that really puzzles me though.  This is not the first American forum I have joined, and it baffles me that they ALL turn out like this, and I end up abandoning them.  Why only American forums?  I belong to Australian and European forums, and have been a member there for YEARS with none of this bullshit happening… I truly do not understand you lot.

Very disappointing…

Mike

[/quote]

 

Maybe because there are more "cultures"/"mixes"/"diversity" in the US than in Australia and Europe.  We’ve been taught to speak our minds at all times, that’s not necessarily the case in other parts of the world.  In my travels, I’ve gotten many looks of "I can’t believe you just said that". 

One thing though, I’ve noticed you bring up the "Ugly American" argument quite often.  Not trying to be aggressive but I’ve seen you make negative statements about Americans a few times.  IMO, not the way to get along in a "Community". 

As for the Religion issue.  If it’s in the CT area, who cares.  That’s what the area is for, if you don’t like it don’t go there.  The other areas are for the 3E’s.  I personally like having the opportunity to discuss these issues with people that have a similar view of things in regards to the 3E’s.  It just shows how diverse the community has become.

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