Religion and peak oil

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  • Tue, Apr 28, 2009 - 11:13pm

    #21
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    On the Usefulness of Prayer

[quote=Zombie210]

I’d like to hear what others feel if TSHTF, what role would religion have in either helping or hurting societies say together?  Praying on ones knees doesn’t do much good compared to working on ones feet to get things running again. 

Anyone else care to comment?

[/quote]

Well, Zombie, it appears that there are at least some people who beg to differ.  Today, I was in contact with a handmade rosary artisan, as I needed to get one of mine repaired.  These are custom made rosaries, made of semi-precious stones and handcrafted beads, with typical prices in the $200 to $600 range.  Out of curiosity, I asked how business had been, expecting that it would be lagging, just like the rest of the economy.  To my delight, she indicated that sales had been very strong.  In a related blog, I noted comments to the effect that their customers preferred rosaries to guns as their weapon of choice.  A typical rosary is a tool used to assist one in focusing on a certain prayer that takes at least one hour to complete.  It is generally recited daily, when possible.  So, some folks are devoting not only their money, but also their time to something, that, in your mind, doesn’t do much good.  Beauty, it seems, is in the eye of the beholder . . . . .

  • Wed, Apr 29, 2009 - 12:50am

    #22
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    Re: Religion and peak oil

Cloudfire,

I never claimed there were some people who disagreed with me, I am nowhere near that arrogant. 🙂

I just think its better to live on ones feet than pray on ones knees to something that doesn`t seem likely to exist.

So, if i spent all of my money to buy a gold cross studed with gems that made me "happy", would that be doing good? Wouldn`t it be better to have either donated that money to help fight a disease or spend it some other way to help another OR myself?

 

  • Wed, Apr 29, 2009 - 01:03am

    #23
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    Re: Religion and peak oil

I’m sorry, Zombie. I was under the impression that you wanted to explore other possibilities.  It sounds like you’ve already made up your mind about the efficacy of prayer.  Since that’s the case, and I have no desire to bicker, I’ll be on my way . . . .

  • Wed, Apr 29, 2009 - 01:31am

    #24
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    Re: Religion and peak oil

Cloudfire, if you present evidence that prayer works I will take a look at it with an open mind. I`ll discuss this with you in private if you’d prefer as well.

Are you also open to the idea that it doesn’t work though?

  • Wed, Apr 29, 2009 - 03:02am

    #25
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    Re: Religion and peak oil

[quote=Zombie210]

Cloudfire, if you present evidence that prayer works I will take a look at it with an open mind. I`ll discuss this with you in private if you’d prefer as well.

Are you also open to the idea that it doesn’t work though?

[/quote]

For the sake of others following this thread, please note that this conversation was continued privately.  Here’s an excerpt from that conversation:

 

[quote=c1oudfire]No, I haven’t taken your comments personally, and I’ve enjoyed your posts, generally.  Some folks like to debate, regardless of whether there’s any likelihood of changing another’s mind.  In terms of prayer, because of my personal experience with it, nothing could convince me that it doesn’t work.  So, I don’t want to be rude and waste your time.  And, if you don’t believe in God or the power of prayer, or have a sincere desire to explore that possibility, I don’t know of any way I can prove it to you.  So, I’d rather spend my time engaged in something that will produce results. 

In case you ever find yourself in a position where nothing that you can do in the physical realm will help, let me assure you of this:  prayer is absolutely not the futile pursuit that you perceive it to be.  The only way that I know of "proving" the power of prayer is to engage in it, sincerely and humbly, petitioning God for truth and wisdom.  That, accompanied by the willingness to humble oneself, and to be persistent in the pursuit and brutal with oneself about accepting nothing short of truth, is the only way I know . . . .

All of that is not to say that doing productive and charitable things in the physical realm is of no use.  But, it is no understatement for me to say that I would much rather find myself lacking physical means that to find myself cut off from God, and therefore without my spiritual arsenal.

[/quote]

In the interest of keeping the public forums focused more directly on the three E’s, community, and sustainability, I won’t be continuing to post this conversation publicly. 

  • Wed, Apr 29, 2009 - 05:28am

    #26
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    Re: Religion and peak oil

This one is sensitive for a lot of people. As can be expected. I do not want to attack anyones beliefs as I don’t appreciate mine being attacked. I was originally baptised as Catholic though. Went to Sunday school, church all that fun stuff. I have read the bible so I don’t come from a place with no experience in that area.

C1loudfire – You also can’t change anyones mind that is too errogant or nieve to listen. Sadly. I’m sure I’m included in some areas.  But luckily I found my new favorite thread.

I don’t want to attack anyones denomination, but IMHO, I think in a SHTF scenario, religion would hurt us. People will flock to God as the solver of all problems instead of taking initiative for themselves. God will have created this disaster instead of mans insatiable need for finite resources. It will be the escape to turn to. I see it as given due to humans need to understand why. Some will seek logic, some will not.  Then will come division of society. If you aren’t this denomonation, our God says you shouldn’t be saved. Then comes the next war over beliefs, totally ignoring principles given to us in the Bible, Torah, Quran (I think all basically the same work, just reformatted a few times). But in SHTF, someone will construe some verse as to how they are better than everyone else, and god talks to them, and we need to do what they say. There is probably some people out there who already have, scary thought. The bible says gay people are evil (heavily paraphrased) and a womans responsibility in the home is to stay there and look after her man (also heavily paraphrased). Those quotes to me don’t seem very relevant now, as many others. They more seem relevant to a time long passed. I have a suspicion we’ll write them out for the new new testament. 

My views are probably more cynical than others. I’m not trying to attack you though Cloud. This is how I think in this area. Maybe I seem misguided to some, but I could say the same for them. I respect you and your opinion, as I hope you do for me.

  • Wed, Apr 29, 2009 - 09:38am

    #27
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    Re: Religion and peak oil

C1oudfire,

I’ve been living in Hungary now for a little over 7 months and, I have found no other unifying community working for the collective greater good as a building-block to a transition town than through religious groups. Much that I’m finding here (and I’ve searched and searched through the internet, newspapers and word of mouth far and wide) are solely toward one denomination or another, with the growth of those communities brought about not by the individual just considering his own survival for joining, but by the giving process that allows each to put into play honourable and altruistic value. In all, a communal belief is vital toward its survival and, without it would be a non-structured route toward its own destruction.

In other words, in the aftermath of peak oil over the next 20 years, and in my own opinion, I see a strong rise in religious community will be for the greater good in the survival of the human species.

I am greatly troubled by the wealth of the Catholic church and of the power that it wields, with the Vatican City recognized as one of the richest countries (it is considered as one) of the World when there is such great suffering visible to be seen, yet, these are excuses for those that care to judge when the realization that those who suffer in the majority were not in that position by the cause of this religion necessarily.

The nit-picking debates rage on with many arguments for and against spirited (pun intended) from the ether but, capitalism is dying, as is statism, with the rule of anarchy (anarchy being used as a word for its proper meaning and not the media driven version) I hope, will yet again be the future opportunities created for our children and our children’s children.

A belief with depth (it does not necessarily come from religion) in something grounded, such as what amounts to the ‘Crash Course’, brings many people far and wide into the human cooking-pot of ideas, with much that I’ve built firmly placed on those foundations with my home and community here. I believe my actions and yours have been enough for us both to be considered admirable, quietly in the background, while the majority of the world sleep on…

Best,

Paul

  • Wed, Apr 29, 2009 - 12:48pm

    #28
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    Re: Religion and peak oil

SPM and Vanity Fox;

I’ll address you collectively, as I think (or at least, hope) that I can present a more cohesive response that way.  I hope you’ll excuse me if I address my remarks to a wider audience, as I think you have both expressed common concerns.  I’ll also try to address specific concerns described in your posts.  None of what I say is intended as a personal attack, but rather as an expression of my beliefs.

First, let me say that the beliefs I hold are the traditional Catholic faith, and sadly, are not in any way connected with the "church" that is represented in Rome today.  Since Vatican II, Rome and nearly the entire "Catholic" hierarchy have diverged from the traditional Catholic faith so acutely, that it can truly be said that they are not the same faith.  It is a tragic fact that the fruits of Vatican II have had the collateral damage of disillusioning the public about true Catholicism, so that, generally speaking, few people give it a good hard look, and fewer still come to a true understanding of Catholicism.  Historically speaking, I include myself in that category . . . . Catholicism was the last place I expected to find truth, and the last place I looked.  I was intently seeking, and it could truly be said that I was quite preoccupied with the search, which continued for over two years.  (In a broader sense, it could accurately be said that the search had lasted a lifetime.)  During that time, I had many false starts, and it must be said that the only thing that kept me on track was a stubborn, brutal rejection of any belief system that was not internally consistent, and that did not bear "good fruits".  So, in that sense, I applaud your rejection of faiths that lead to despicable behavior.

I understand the concern that faith leads to inaction, not because it is true, but rather because that is how the mainstream media has indoctrinated us to perceive it.  As evidence, I offer you my many posts on this site.  I hope that they well express that I am both a person of deep faith and a person of action, with a deep concern for others.  Only "faiths" based on false premises and internal inconsistencies, and/or driven by self-interested folk with ulterior motives result in fatalism and hatred.  Understanding that can be a useful tool in weeding out the false religions. 

I don’t want to quibble, but I must emphatically state that the beliefs stated in the Bible, Qur’an, and Torah are not the same.  In fact, they are diametrically opposed, in many cases.  The idea that all religions are emulating the same faith is a modern concept, promoted by the mainstream media (and ironically, by the hierarchy that currently occupies the Vatican) and has little basis in fact.  Proof of this is self-evident on reading all three texts. 

So, in an attempt to pull this all together, as promised, I would encourage anyone with a sincere desire to know Truth, to discern carefully between the various religions, including the many divisions within the "Christian" faith.  On close examination, they are very different, and therefore bear very different fruits.  For those who are sincere in the quest for truth, I would encourage you to carefully avoid allowing the mainstream media to shape your perception of reality, in both the physical and spiritual realms.  For those who embark on that quest, I truly wish you the very best.  I can’t promise you that the journey is easy or without peril, but I can, unequivocably promise you that the rewards are well worth the journey.

  • Wed, Apr 29, 2009 - 05:49pm

    #29
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    Re: Religion and peak oil

Vanity and Cloud, very well put.

I think for the majority of people, having that feeling of connection, is a great thing. I think religions bring communities together. Over all it instills good morals to carry through your life.

I do still see it as divisory, and a roadblock that must be overcome for the natural evolution of society.

  • Wed, Apr 29, 2009 - 06:03pm

    #30
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    Re: Religion and peak oil

I would like to say I do have my own feeling of "connection", and it is of a great comfort for me. Just because it is not a connection others understand, or even deem a true connection, nonetheless it is a firmly grounded connection for me.

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