Possible future Solution 2.0 (with paragraphs)

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  • Wed, Feb 25, 2009 - 06:27pm

    #101
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    Re: Possible future Solution 2.0 (with paragraphs)

 

 

 Thought is the origional source of all wealth, all success, all material gain, all great discoveries and inventions, and of all achievement.

  • Wed, Feb 25, 2009 - 06:30pm

    #102
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    Re: Possible future Solution 2.0 (with paragraphs)

 

 

 No reason not to apply that quote to the economy.

  • Wed, Feb 25, 2009 - 07:16pm

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    Re: Possible future Solution 2.0 (with paragraphs)

Joe,

With the utmost consideration of jr29, for whom I hold a great deal of respect, I think you should let this thread die the death that began when arguements over detail removed any power to its ideas.

Others will grasp the nettle that ‘Fresco’ began and, maybe they’ll hold more patience and maturity than has been shown here, enabling them the chance to build a ‘possible’ financial system in the future.

When I was young I wanted everything to be possible. Now I’m older, I just need some things to be a certainty…

Take Care,

Paul

 

  • Wed, Feb 25, 2009 - 08:07pm

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    Re: Possible future Solution 2.0 (with paragraphs)

 

Thanks Paul, I understand that people were kind of getting off topic and not sticking to my post.  I will still respond if anyone has a legitimate question on the idea.  I also would like to remind, that I will not have all answers, just like no one does.  Just trying to do my part to enter in new ideas instead of the same status quo.  If anyone has something to ask about the card system I will still reply. 

 

~Joe

  • Wed, Feb 25, 2009 - 09:48pm

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    Re: Possible future Solution 2.0 (with paragraphs)

Hi JK121,

 

I’m hesistant to enter this fray given how heated and personal some of these arguments have gotten, but I’ve read your article 3 times and I still have a some questions

1)  I’m not exactly clear on how this system is not just another fiat currency system, albeit without physical notes and (presumably) without numerical denominations of money.  Basically it sounds like the system you propose is a means of exchanging work for goods by way of an agreed upon system of exchange rates determined by a central authority (I’m guessing this authority would be some sort of complex algorithm created by the programmers of the HDFC).  A user of this device would have to have full-faith that these exchange rates are fair and credible.  This sounds like fiat money to me, however in a different form than our current system.  Am I wrong here in my interpretation here?  If so, can you explain how your system is different?

2)   Wouldn’t these programmers ostensibly be "bankers" in a sense?  It seems to me that no matter how egalitarian method of choosing the exchange rates would be, these programmers would be the gatekeepers when it came to assigning these rates.  Who’s to stop them guys and girls if they decided that each line of code they type in is worth a year of food?

3)  Let’s say I’m the "bum" from the example you used in your article.  The only work I am qualified to do is cleaning up garbage off the street,
and that "pays" me only 3 meals a day and puts a roof over my head.  Now let’s say I had a brilliant idea to, say, design a better mouse trap.  For the sake of the example this mouse trap is a sure-fire idea, it will definately work better.  Now in order to do this I need 10 rolls of steel wire, 100 board feet of lumber, and the services of a mechanical engineer to help make my idea a reality.  In order to get this stuff I would need to exchange 500 meals.  Would there be a system of loaning?  Or would I just have to take on more work and save until I could start on my invention?

  • Wed, Feb 25, 2009 - 10:30pm

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    Re: Possible future Solution 2.0 (with paragraphs)

I don’t know how I did it…but…I’ve just bitten the pad off my big toe…mmm…SaltyWink

  • Wed, Feb 25, 2009 - 11:05pm

    #107
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    Re: Possible future Solution 2.0 (with paragraphs)

[quote=bparker321]

Hi JK121,

 

I’m hesistant to enter this fray given how heated and personal some of these arguments have gotten, but I’ve read your article 3 times and I still have a some questions

1)  I’m not exactly clear on how this system is not just another fiat currency system, albeit without physical notes and (presumably) without numerical denominations of money.  Basically it sounds like the system you propose is a means of exchanging work for goods by way of an agreed upon system of exchange rates determined by a central authority (I’m guessing this authority would be some sort of complex algorithm created by the programmers of the HDFC).  A user of this device would have to have full-faith that these exchange rates are fair and credible.  This sounds like fiat money to me, however in a different form than our current system.  Am I wrong here in my interpretation here?  If so, can you explain how your system is different?

2)   Wouldn’t these programmers ostensibly be "bankers" in a sense?  It seems to me that no matter how egalitarian method of choosing the exchange rates would be, these programmers would be the gatekeepers when it came to assigning these rates.  Who’s to stop them guys and girls if they decided that each line of code they type in is worth a year of food?

3)  Let’s say I’m the "bum" from the example you used in your article.  The only work I am qualified to do is cleaning up garbage off the street,
and that "pays" me only 3 meals a day and puts a roof over my head.  Now let’s say I had a brilliant idea to, say, design a better mouse trap.  For the sake of the example this mouse trap is a sure-fire idea, it will definately work better.  Now in order to do this I need 10 rolls of steel wire, 100 board feet of lumber, and the services of a mechanical engineer to help make my idea a reality.  In order to get this stuff I would need to exchange 500 meals.  Would there be a system of loaning?  Or would I just have to take on more work and save until I could start on my invention?

[/quote]

 

Whoops, all of these questions have been asked already in some form or another.  Sorry, I kinda skimmed the posts before.  Nevermind.

  • Thu, Feb 26, 2009 - 03:56am

    #108
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    Re: Possible future Solution 2.0 (with paragraphs)

Hi JK121

Downloaded both zeitgeist movies over the last few days and have just finished watching them.

So now I see where you are coming from. Yes baby steps. I can agree with all of the analysis just not with all of the solution.  When we gave up effective community to either profit or government (both the same now) we lost our best tool for change. I agree with the part that encourages individuals to become aware and perhaps we can hold a vision of a world based on a resource economy but we have to find practical steps to get us from where we are now.

This path goes through human scale grouping. Also while I accept that science and technology can contribute to our future in a positive way, I don’t think that they are sufficiently mature for this to be our only guide. There is a lot of our being that is not covered or is simply missed by science and technology. Perhaps some of these needs are presently met by church and state (although corrupt).

We have never stopped being tribal by our nature and no different civilisation is going to change that. I recognise that if we want to make effective use of technology we need to assure its continuance but we first need to establish again the ability to care for ourselves at the group level. This means growing or harvesting our own food, supplying our own shelter, meeting our own energy needs and attending to our own wellbeing. If we can do this we will automatically establish our selves within our local resource base and bring our growth in numbers to an end. This is best done in human scale groups at most in our low hundreds. If we can become independent of power and profit at the group level we have almost infinite choice available to us.

Don

PS Dmitry Orlov has a good post on the probable practical future of scientists. 

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2009/02/of-swans-and-turkeys.html

_________________________________________

7 billion people can be wrong, very wrong

  • Thu, Feb 26, 2009 - 05:11am

    #109
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    Re: Possible future Solution 2.0 (with paragraphs)

[quote=pir8don]

Hi JK121

<snip>

PS Dmitry Orlov has a good post on the probable practical future of scientists. 

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2009/02/of-swans-and-turkeys.html

_________________________________________

7 billion people can be wrong, very wrong

[/quote]

Don,

I read your Orlov link. He makes very, very good sense. I especially liked this part which made me laugh in spite of the seriousness of his analogy:

Taleb is known for introducing us to black swans (reality-altering
observations that invalidate earlier conventional wisdom) but another
animal he should be rightly famous for is the Christmas turkey. Taleb
says that asking an economist to predict the future is like asking the
Christmas turkey what’s for dinner on Christmas: based on its entire
lifetime of experience, the turkey expects to be fed on Christmas, not
to be eaten. As far as the turkey is concerned, Christmas is a black
swan-type event.

I’m beginning to feel like that turkey!   Surprised uh,oh!

  • Thu, Feb 26, 2009 - 05:40am

    #110
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    Re: Possible future Solution 2.0 (with paragraphs)

Yeah Sam

He kind of cuts to the chase doesn’t he. I guess we have to learn to embrace the swans and eat the Turkeys.

Don

_________________________________

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