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Plane Crash Suspect’s Online Diatribe

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  • Sat, Feb 20, 2010 - 10:37am

    #41
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    Re: Plane Crash Suspect’s Online Diatribe

[quote=ErikTownsend]

The scariest part of this, by far, is the fact that the guy is being lauded as a “hero” by so many.

Obviously, very few will “follow in his footsteps” and commit suicide trying to make a point. But what if the next guy who hits the press is a guy who decided that instead of “walking away” from his underwater mortgage, he could teach “the establishment” a lesson by burning the house to the ground first, then walking away?

That’s obviously a really stupid thing to do that wouldn’t solve anything. But any landlord can tell you that a shocking percentage of renters who loose their tenancy becuse of their own failure to pay the rent will “get even” with the landlord by trashing the place before leaving, often punching holes in walls before they leave.

So what if that mentality spreads? Now we’re talking about something that the middle of the curve could do, get away with, and feel vindicated by. If a “movement” started where pissed off homeowners in foreclosure burnt their own homes to the ground, it could spread (pardon the pun) like wildfire and overwhelm fire departments and other emergency personnel. If the trend really caught on, it could have a drastic effect on the wealth of the nation. The current crisis is really not subtracting anything from the productive assets of the country – all the foreclosed homes are still there. The system is just redistributing financial equity to the least deserving parties. But if a million people burned their houses to the ground before walking away, the productive assets of the nation would be seriously compromised. There wouldn’t be enough money or resources to clean up the mess, and it could very easily lead to mass panic and even civil war.

The argument that burning a perfectly good house down accomplishes nothing is moot. People in the mindset Celente describes with his “when people loose everything they loose it” quote are not processing thoughts rationally, they are acting out of emotion. And there are plenty of Americans facing foreclosure who are not short on emotions toward the system. If they are walking away and loosing their credit anyway, they really have nothing else to loose by destroying the property first, so long as they get away with calling it an accident. Prosecuting them for arson with nothing more than the circumstantial evidence that they were facing foreclosure would be next to impossible.

I sure hope that I’m just being silly and posing ridculous, unrealistic scenarios. But frankly, I’m also thankful that I no longer live in the USA. I very much hope the country will come together and make it through this, but the worst is clearly yet to come and unfortunately I don’t think that the mounting disagreements between citizens and government are going to be resolved through thoughtful intellectual discourse at “town hall” meetings.

One thing the gov’t could and should do that would actually have a positive impact would be to figure out how to start actively promoting nationalism and community among citizens. During WWII there was enormous personal sacrifice by citizens, but they all came together and felt like “Hey, we’re all Americans and we’re all in this together, so let’s work together and just accept that it is what it is”. I don’t sense that sentiment much in modern day America.

[/quote]

Great post Erik. It pretty much highlights all the concerns and fears that I have regarding this incident. I think Joe Stack is a David v Goliath metaphor for many that feel helpless in the face of a corrupt leadership and a suffocating and tyrannical regime. 

However, I don’t think that the house burning thing would work. The government would merely change the law and assume a presumption of guilt for any home that burned down with exoneration if you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you didn’t do it. 

That’s one of Joe’s primary complaints. This government loves to move the goalposts when you attempt to use it’s laws to get the better of it. 

But anyone that’s deluded into thinking that this kind of action is going to “slay the beast” is going to wind up under it’s tracks. 

We need to spend less time griping on the web, and more time on our feet. Change comes from action, not talk. The kind of change that our nation’s legacy was built on. Grassroots action. Change the system. Wake people up. Educate them. 

And the Three E’s are the perfect message. 

Here’s an amazing interview with Chris Hedges. He advocates “dropping out of the system” and strangling the consumer economy. From his view, it starves the corporatacracy of it’s fuel and renders it neutered. 

But….

it would also force the building of local roots, local communities, preserve precious resources, and focus Americans towards the more pressing problems that lie ahead. And all without violence. 

 

  • Sat, Feb 20, 2010 - 01:55pm

    #42
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    Re: Plane Crash Suspect’s Online Diatribe

Morph,

Thanks very much for the kind words. I respect your opinions a lot, too.

I enjoyed the video and agree Hedges is a smart guy with a good understanding of the problem. But honestly I think he’s all wet when it comes to the solution. This business of “dropping out” for the sake of economic revenge against corporate America is just silly, IMHO.

Consider the real scope of the problem here: We are moving rapidly toward deep fascism for one reason and one reason only. That reason is that CAMPAIGN MONEY BUYS VOTES. The American People still have and have always had the power to fire the idots in Washington. For now, at least, there is still the basic system of a representative democracy. Unlike most people on the planet, Americans still have the power to choose their leaders, and they could stop tolerating this nonsense very easily if they were willing to start paying attention to the issues and casting intelligent votes at the polls. But so long as Americans allow themselves to be influenced primarily by campaign advertising and falling for shallow, insincere campaign rhetoric, it will remain the case that what it takes to win an election is to get a lot of corporate campaign donations. Dutifully discharging the responsibilites of office with the best interests of the people in mind is something that simply doesn’t affect election results very much, and the politicians know it. What keeps them in power is corporate campaign donations, so that’s what they respond to.

America has become a dumbed-down society that responds shockingly predictably to advertising. Which ever politician has the most money to spend on advertising wins, regardless of their true merits of a candidate. Corporations are able to control government because the politicians know it’s safe to pay lip service to what the people want during the campaign, then ignore the interests of the people when in office and favor the interests of the corporations paying the tab for the advertising, who pay much closer attention to what the politicians actually do in office than the voters do.

In a country like China where the only tool available to the people is civil revolt or mass strikes, the sort of thing Hedges proposes might be the best alternative. But it’s completely unnecessary in the United States to organize a “movement” centered on dropping out of the consumption economy. The only movement that’s needed is for Americans to wake the f**k up and start paying attention to the issues and voting for candidates based on their voting records in office, as opposed to responding to who has the most advertising. The movement that’s needed is the one where Americans vow to tune out the campaign advertising completely, and spend the time to learn about the issues and the true track records of the candidates. But sadly Americans have had it so damn good for so damn long that they have become characteristically complacent and willing to just ignore politics for the most part and place their votes based primarily on name recognition and which candidate has blasted them with the most vote-for-me advertising or made the most insincere, hollow promises to them during the campaign. In short, the movement that’s needed could be summed up as “Wake up and wise up, America!”

Just my two cents…

Erik

 

  • Sat, Feb 20, 2010 - 05:07pm

    #43
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    Re: Plane Crash Suspect’s Online Diatribe

I agree with Erik we’re moving quite rapidly toward true, hard fascism. But I hardly think we have anything close to a representative democracy.  We have been in soft fascism for a long time.  With the Fed in 1913 running our economic lives in secret, and the National Security Act in 1947 running the rest of the stuff that controls our empire system in secret, the people have been explicitly removed from the important aspects of government and are just given a choice between 2 corporate versions of the same thing…top-down, secretly planned empire.  The attempt by the people in the 60’s to take it back (JFK, RFK, MLK, college kids, etc) was squelched once the soft fascists realized they were about to lose and they had to unleash a little hard fascism to recover their power. 

So yes advertising, campaign money, and people being asleep are problems.  But the problem is not just the result of an impersonal, corrupting, passive dynamic in America.  It’s deliberately planned by the power group.  The real problem is that a parasitic fascist group deliberately manipulates and controls things.  Like any parasite, that group needs to be attacked, and I think Hedges correctly identifies the basis for their power as our voluntary participation in their corporate/banking system.  I agree with him that removing ourselves from it would weaken the parasite and give us a chance to heal.

At the same time, I’m all for “Wake up and wise up America!”  That’s why I’m now writing articles.  But it feels futile sometimes.

 

  • Sat, Feb 20, 2010 - 08:19pm

    #44
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    Re: Plane Crash Suspect’s Online Diatribe

[quote=ErikTownsend]I enjoyed the video and agree Hedges is a smart guy with a good understanding of the problem. But honestly I think he’s all wet when it comes to the solution. This business of “dropping out” for the sake of economic revenge against corporate America is just silly, IMHO.

[/quote]

 

WHY?  I think it’s a brilliant idea!  It’s exactly what I advocated way back in 2008 here when I wrote my “what if?” post https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/what-if/9651

All the corporations run on MONEY.  What if we all continued doing all we do WITHOUT MONEY?  What if we all refused to pay for anything, AND offered al the services and goods we currently offer society FOR FREE…?  What if we all stopped paying our debts to banks?

The Matrix would be on its knees in days.  Money strike.

Game over.

Mike

  • Sat, Feb 20, 2010 - 08:21pm

    #45
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    Re: Plane Crash Suspect’s Online Diatribe

[quote=Damnthematrix]

[quote=ErikTownsend]I enjoyed the video and agree Hedges is a smart guy with a good understanding of the problem. But honestly I think he’s all wet when it comes to the solution. This business of “dropping out” for the sake of economic revenge against corporate America is just silly, IMHO.

[/quote]

 

WHY?  I think it’s a brilliant idea!  It’s exactly what I advocated way back in 2008 here when I wrote my “what if?” post https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/what-if/9651

All the corporations run on MONEY.  What if we all continued doing all we do WITHOUT MONEY?  What if we all refused to pay for anything, AND offered al the services and goods we currently offer society FOR FREE…?  What if we all stopped paying our debts to banks?

The Matrix would be on its knees in days.  Money strike.

Game over.

Mike

[/quote]

I think the government would force people to work at the barrel of a gun though. Mike, there’s no easy way out of this. Power doesn’t give up power. You know that. 

  • Sat, Feb 20, 2010 - 09:05pm

    #46
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    Re: Plane Crash Suspect’s Online Diatribe

[quote=Morpheus]I think the government would force people to work at the barrel of a gun though. Mike, there’s no easy way out of this. Power doesn’t give up power. You know that. 

[/quote]

I’m not advocating “not working”, I’m advocating working for no money……  Did you go to my “what if?” link?  I’ll repost it here:

Anyone who reads my posts will know me as a lateral thinker…  stuff like ‘cancel the debts’ etc.  I like to question everything, because surely, there must be a reason….  like why do we work?

Why indeed do any of us go to work everyday?  Some must like their jobs. Surely the great majority of doctors like helping people, saving lives…. some like Medecins Sans Frontieres even do it for nothing (don’t they?)

So why do we do it?

I believe we do it to put food (and drink) on the table, raise a roof over our heads to keep the cold and rain away, and pay our debts…  Oh and consume too I suppose.  Money as a means of exchanging disparately valued goods is often discussed here..  but what if we all worked for FREE?  I do lots of work for free.  Two community newsletters a month, the odd newspaper article, repairs to neighbours’ mowers, give away eggs and stuff….  but now think about this…

IF debt were to be cancelled, that alone would be one reason to cut right back how much each of us would have to work.  Remove taxes, and there goes another day we don’t need to work…  In fact, under such circumstances, it might be possible to work for free.  STUFF THE ECONOMY!  Close the banks, and Wall Street, and…..

Imagine this.  YOU are a gas pump attendant, or mechanic at a service station.  All day you work for free.  Gas is free too.  You come out of work, walk to the nearest bottle shop and get a cold six pack of beer, for free….  the people who make the beer, they work for free too, because they know they can just walk into a supermarket and grab all the food they need, for free.  The farmer works for free, he’s out of debt there are no taxes, he gives away his food, which he can afford to do now diesel’s free, no taxes, and when he gets home the fridge and TV will work, because he no longer has to worry about paying his power bill, the power’s free too…. 

Debts and taxes are only with us to keep the super rich… well, super rich.  No?  Am I missing something?

In a sustainable world, we wouldn’t need to raise taxes to build roads…  people who like building roads would do it for free…  in exchange for what they need being free too.

To be sure, some people would abuse the system, or try to…  but HOW MUCH beer can you drink if you walk out with a truckload of the stuff in the back of the SUV?

If stuff was free, crime would grind to a halt too.  Now I’m not saying I’ve thought this through completely, far from it, but I can’t help thinking it’s an interesting proposition considering what we are facing today, and that there are so many people here expressing much anger about the looting and pillaging of America…. and even talking revolution sometimes.  So, here’s a calm revolution.  A new world order, the Matrix disassembled.  Just think of all the great stuff you could do instead of working…

Discuss. 

  • Sat, Feb 20, 2010 - 10:32pm

    #47
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    Re: Plane Crash Suspect’s Online Diatribe

The government would certainly respond initially with guns and violence, but a bankrupt government (like ours) can only maintain this facade for so long. We are on an inevitable downtrend, politically speaking. The only changes will come from the (sorry to use cliche) grass roots level. Anything that can re-empower individuals, communities, and small towns will be a plus, IMHO.

The primary means being used to corral us onto the suicide course our nation is on is information and financial control. The thing is that neither of these are fundamentally forceful. But therein lies the paradox: Since we are not broadly forced at gunpoint, we are rather convinced and induced to “choose” to continue the way we are – for money, for acceptance from society, or out of fear. “Money” is a concept, a synthesized idea. Though it truly only exists in our heads, it is obviously very powerful, and pretty much inevitable. The question we need to ask ourselves is how do we as a society define “money”? How should we define it? Are we defining it through free choice, or is someone else taking this power for themselves? What are their interests? What are ours?

Ultimately, all of these come down to each person’s definition of morality. In this instance, I’d define it broadly, not in terms of a specific religion, but in terms of what we think is good or bad. For example: we might say, the morality of Lloyd Blankfein is a morality of money. That is: Money is ‘good’ and no money is ‘bad.’ To Lloyd, money is defined as currencies, and it is the ends to which he labors. We might further say: The morality of an Olympic athlete is physical prowess. To them: What strengthens the body is ‘good’ and what weakens the body is ‘bad.’ Most people do not lead lives so focused. That said, they still need to ask themselves what is good and what is bad, in their own terms. And then the question is: Are my daily work and habits in harmony with my own sense of morality?

Because of the total ubiquity of ‘money’ it is one of the most powerful determinents of the morality, character, and culture of a society. Think about that. As Chris is quick to note in the Crash Course: each monetary system will impose certain biases (read: moralities) on the people that use it. Our challenge, is to determine A) What morality is imposed upon us by the dollar system? B) Do we agree with this? C) Is there a better way to bring our concept of money into agreement with our concept of values (our morality as individuals and as society).

I think the scope of the ‘money’ used can only be as broad as the scope of the people that subscribe to the morality it imposes. Of course people can follow the system even if they don’t agree (look at our society, it happens all the time), but they will be unhappy, less productive, and less in control of their lives as a result. Right now, we can be certain that our monetary system’s scope (all of the USA, and really most of the world) greatly exceeds the scope of the actual “subscribers” that agree with the morality it imposes. How many people do you know that are thrilled with the US Dollar?

  • Sat, Feb 20, 2010 - 10:33pm

    #48
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    Re: Plane Crash Suspect’s Online Diatribe

[quote=Damnthematrix]

Now I’m not saying I’ve thought this through completely, far from it, but I can’t help thinking it’s an interesting proposition considering what we are facing today,

[/quote]

No, you certainly have not thought this out completely, even though you’ve had over a year to do so .. could that be because you’re too busy running your yap to think about what’s coming out of it?

Just wondering

  • Sat, Feb 20, 2010 - 10:51pm

    #49
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    Re: Plane Crash Suspect’s Online Diatribe

Perhaps you’d like to offer up an alternative instead of flaming me…?  Great ideas have come out of this site from brain storming, and certainly not from personal attacks…..

As I see it, “money” plus economic growth got us “here”.

Right now, we have way more “stuff” than anyone would deem “necessary”, even useful!  We already have enough “stuff” to keep the show going, if only we can now maintain it in the face of “Peak Everything”……

The only reason we want more money is to buy ever more stuff, and pay ever rising debt levels, and for what?  I can only think of one: keep the corporations and their ilk filthy rich.

The point is, as far as I am concerned, that it’s game over, evrything is about to change, and I’d like “us” to change it before “they” do it for us.

The Matrix only keeps us “happy” because we’ve been sold the idea of the [insert favorite nation] dream….  which is now turning into the nightmare.

The debts can NEVER EVER be repaid…….  so why pretend we can for one second longer?

Mike

  • Sun, Feb 21, 2010 - 01:20am

    #50
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    Re: Plane Crash Suspect’s Online Diatribe

[quote=radishcake]

[quote=Damnthematrix]

Now I’m not saying I’ve thought this through completely, far from it, but I can’t help thinking it’s an interesting proposition considering what we are facing today,

[/quote]

No, you certainly have not thought this out completely, even though you’ve had over a year to do so .. could that be because you’re too busy running your yap to think about what’s coming out of it?

Just wondering

[/quote]

If you don’t like his message then perhaps you could demonstrate some restraint and just remain silent? 

Thank you. 

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